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U.S. labor unions now have to "compromise" with big business to screw American workers so that Congress can claim progress in immigration "reform".

Last year Howard Foster says in an excellent piece for the Huffington Post: "President Obama was once asked by the wife of an unemployed engineer why the U.S. allows H-1B visas (for engineers and other high-tech workers) when so many are unemployed. The president seemed remarkably ill-informed in responding. He said, without citing any statistics, that businesses tell him they cannot find enough engineers."

But this kind of anecdotal evidence is usually misleading. We don't know what kind of businesses the president was referring to. He should have known that there are many unemployed engineers. In fact, the Census puts the number at 1.8 million

So why do we have any legal immigration when so many Americans are looking for work? One of the purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), the current immigration law, is to preserve job opportunities for American citizens.

On the other hand, employers can petition the government for permission to import foreign workers with specialized knowledge, in many cases engineers to work in technology companies. The INA requires employers certify that they could not find an American citizen to fill the job at the "prevailing" wage level (8 U.S.C. 1182 (n)(1)). 

However, the law requires the Department of Labor to issue the certification within seven days unless it is incomplete or "obviously inaccurate." So the process is skewed heavily in favor of granting the requests.

The H-1B Program is Fraught with Fraud and Abuse

A federal government study concluded that 20% of the H-1B applications are fraudulent in some respect. An entire cottage industry of firms that obtain H-1B workers and then "loan" them to another employer has cropped up. One such firm has been convicted of repeated violations of the program, was fined and excluded for a year.

In the video below immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explain how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants; and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1B workers.

Watch in the video what corporations and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers". Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.

Lou Dobbs (when he was at CNN, and who I often disagree with) also did an excellent segment on the H-1B scam (see the second video below) "A law firm is teaching corporations how to get around hiring American workers for jobs so they can import foreign workers under the H1-B visa program. Lawrence M. Lebowitz, the marketing director of the Pittsburgh law firm of Cohen & Grigsby, told executives at its Immigration Law Update Seminar how to advertise to make it look like there are no qualified U.S. workers. "Our goal clearly is not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker," he said. Cohen & Grigsby's latest H-1B documentation for 2013 can be obtained here -

Unfortunately, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have not pressed the issue of H-1B visa fraud. They have either naively bought into the myth of a shortage for "skilled labor", or they are being disingenuous with the American people

The Knife in the Back The Compromise

Now as of today in 2013, the nation's top business and labor groups (the A.F.L.-C.I.O and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce) are nearing an agreement on a guest worker program for low-skilled immigrants, and would clear one of the last hurdles for an overall deal on immigration
"reform" legislation in the Senate.

Senator Charles E. Schumer (D-NY) said, "One of the last sticking points in the business-labor negotiations has been the specific type of jobs that would be excluded from the program." 

The temporary guest worker program would grant up to 200,000 new visas every year for low-skilled workers. Low-skilled immigrants, often employed at restaurants and hotels or on construction projects, could be brought in when employers claim they faced labor shortages. 

The nation’s construction unions have persuaded the negotiators to exclude certain higher-skilled jobs, including crane operators and electricians, from the guest worker program. 

"The labor movement has been united in making sure aspiring Americans [immigrants] get a road map to citizenship and that any future flow program doesn’t reduce wages for any local workers,” said Tom Snyder, manager of the A.F.L.-C.I.O.

The two sides (the A.F.L.-C.I.O and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce) agreed that guest workers would be paid the "prevailing industry wage" and said that employers who faced a labor shortage (even after the national guest worker quota was filled) could request a “safety valve” exemption to bring in workers at a higher wage rate than the prevailing wage.

When U.S. corporations aren't "insourcing", they're "outsourcing"

Four years ago in the midst of the Great Recession, representatives of many of the nation’s most powerful corporations attended the 2009 Strategic Outsourcing Conference to talk about how to send more American jobs overseas. Conference organizers polled the more than 70 senior executives who attended the conference about the behavior of their companies in response to the recession. The majority said their companies increased outsourcing.

And another question that was asked of the executives found that the top reason for companies to outsource American jobs was to “reduce operating costs” (and not because Americans lacked job skills).

The H-1B guest worker fraud has been going on for years, and Congress (and Obama, as well as our previous presidents) is well aware of this, but yet they all refuse to act in the best interests of the working American people, but instead cave in to corporate interests.

Now U.S. Labor unions have to "compromise" with big business to screw American workers so that Congress can claim progress in immigration "reform".

Originally posted to Bud Meyers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:21 AM PDT.

Also republished by In Support of Labor and Unions.

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Comment Preferences

  •  You're just not going far enough. Moat with (4+ / 0-)

    alligators. That would be a perfect solution. Herman Cain suggested it long time ago. And think about all the new jobs for alligator breeders!

  •  H1B (8+ / 0-)

    It's not just about excluding jobs.

    If you really believe that there is a shortage of engineers (these come and go), a much easier way to go about it is to create a program where someone who can certify their qualifications (this doesn't happen with H1B applicants) is granted a two-year (or whatever) work permit not tied to an employer.  If they work here for two years (or whatever), they get green cards.

    Needless to say, this was proposed.  Employers were dead set against it.

  •  I wish that I could tell Pres. Obama (13+ / 0-)

    that because of H1B and other abuses in the IT industry, I cannot encourage my daughter to go into computer science as a future career.  I have had a decent career in the IT field but after seeing some of this garbage I can no longer see the rewards IT employment once had.  There are already high risks built into it and the creation of a two or three tier wage structure to drag down salaries is the final straw.

    So if  Pres.Obama wants to go peddle his speech about the US need for STEM workers, he needs to listen more to this issue first.

    I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

    by Satya1 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:35:40 AM PDT

  •  Ive never had a problem with H1B (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cryonaut, Deep Texan

    I've hired several of them on the tech side.  There was never any kind of abuse or wage-slavery or anything.  They were bright kids... made good money here...all but one eventually got their green card, some even stayed on as employees.  One decided he didn't like working in America at all and went back to the Ukraine.

    I know law firms use H1B's to get attorneys and paralegals from other countries with specialized knowledge about the regulatory system of specific countries.  I worked at a firm that had a lot of these people from Russia and Japan due to the areas of practice we were focused on.

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:40:11 AM PDT

    •  "bright kids" (7+ / 0-)

      What specialized technical skills did they have that potential American employees didn't have?

      I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

      by Satya1 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:47:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  High-end Networking Security skills (5+ / 0-)

        We were hiring a lot of people and its tough to find people with the experience, education and certifications.  We found most of them from hiring domestically and some through the H1-B program.

        So before I get labeled as part of the problem on this issue (again) let me preemptively clarify:

        1.  I could have hired someone and trained them up on the job.

        No, I have very limited headcount.  Doing this puts more burden on the already-competent-in-their-position coworkers of that person and requires more oversight in this critical role.  

        2.  We just didn't recruit hard/creatively enough domestically.  

        We had plenty of applicants.  95% of which were no where close to qualified.  In one of the positions we used this... of the 9 engineers I needed at this level in three locations, 7 of them were US citizens.  That's 78%.  I have no more time or inclination to drag-out a nearly nationwide job search any longer then I have to to find "American" talent then I do to turn away clearly qualified engineers that are staring me in the face but simply have the AUDACITY to have been born on another continent.  I need people that know their shit, have years of experience in this field and are industry certified in the exact technologies we had in production at the time.

        3.  We are too picky and turned away people that could have done the job.

        I am picky.  Its a senior position responsible for overall external facing security of an international law firm protecting information that at a minimum falls under client confidentiality, if not overriding Court protective orders, HIPPA compliance, Sarbanes-Oxley, Merger & Acquisition financial data, criminal records... hell I even had one entire locked room and skiff-secure server full of samples and references to child pornography related to a case we were working on with INTERPOL related to web hosting services.  

        4.  Not every position is dealing with world-shattering hyper security information.

        True.. but the other roles we used H1-B's for was software engineering, database development and document management.  For the document management, we actually hired one of the developers from Russia that worked on the original team that invented the product.  ...and the developers went through the same process.. we interviewed COUNTLESS applicants... most we hired were American, but there were some H1-B's that clearly had the skill set that matched perfectly to what we needed and that we weren't seeing enough of domestically.

        .... oh, and when I say "kids", I usually mean anyone more than 3 years younger than me age-wise or 10 years professional-experience-wise..  :)  ... these guys were all in their late 20's... the Ukrainian guy might have been barely 30... I don't remember exactly.

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:43:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting Question (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Roadbed Guy, Silvia Nightshade

          All of your points are valid, but I would ask one very important question regarding the H-1Bs you obviously value.  Just how did they pass the security check you ran on them?  Who paid for the surety necessary to backup that security check?  In years past, these types of hires were brought into the country by a recruiting firm and then hired out individually, with the firm bearing all of those costs, but that meant deep pockets in case one of the hires proved a little less savory than the original security check assessed.

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 04:07:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the enlightening response. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I'm not sure I can buy the idea that every H1B visa employee was critical to your company and could not have been recruited from US applicants.  But I don't have the hubris to pretend I understand your company's situation.  And your detail is very interesting.

          As I mention elsewhere, I have respected colleagues, friends and relatives who are on H1Bs.  So my perspective is that:

          *  I see abuse of the H1B system frequently
          *  I've witnessed the downward pressure on some IT salaries (when I say IT I'm talking about Comp.Sci. degree based.)
          *  I've watched competent friends forced to leave IT to go into teaching or retail or spending more time with the kids.

          I've noticed sometimes that security is more of an awareness of  people in other countries.  Also there are certain specialties that other countries have tons of workers.  India for example did not have to build out an extensive, capital heavy land-line infrastructure to every house.  In part they skipped a generation of phone technology and rely more on cell.  My cousin is tech head for one of the states.

          But I'm grateful for Grassley's bill and I hope it helps eliminate the abuse.

          I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

          by Satya1 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:41:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  All with fake resumes full of lies (4+ / 0-)

      I have worked with hundreds pf these people that are no more than trainees.

      Why won't these companies train Americans?

      I have reviewed resumes of H1B candidates where 3 or more matched exactly but for the name at the top.

      Why do we need to import labor and grant them permanent resident green cards when we have bright kids right here in our own country?

      They have fake degrees too.  BS and MS degrees can be purchased cheaply abroad and there is no way to verify if they are real.  Of course hiring companies don't care and use it as one more way to exclude Americans.

      •  Wow...a bit broad-brushed (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cryonaut, johnny wurster, Deep Texan

        they "all" have fake resumes and fake degrees?  Everything is a scam?

        I dont know.. maybe I didnt work with the same hiring company that you did, but I've seen more bullshit on American resumes then I did on the H1-B's I hired.  .

        ...and I'm not saying that all Americans lie on the resumes or fake their degrees, but I've been a hiring manager for almost 20 years now and I have seen so much bullshit, exaggeration, nonsense, double-talk, vague fluff and out-and-out deceptive LIES on plenty of Americans that I guess I just assumed that H1-B applicant should be equally scrutinized and properly interviewed the same as any "bright kid" from the States.

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:52:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh.. I skipped one of your questions (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan
        Why won't these companies train Americans?
        When did I enter the IT Training industry?  I was running an international law firm at the time.  These positions paid $100K+.... why the HELL would I hire someone at that level that needed MY HELP to do their job?

        In law firms there are attorneys and other billable professionals and then there is "support staff".  We are overhead. We are cost.  We exist to keep the firm running so that the billable professionals can operate and generate revenue.  I have very limited spots.  I can't just tack on junior roles here and there to bring in under/non-qualified people and hand them paychecks while they learn on my time and budget.

        Not how it works, sorry.  

        And spare me the "but you could pay them less as they trained up" or some such nonsense.  This was Washington DC... our job market doesnt slow down like the rest of America, particularly in tech.  You hire someone underskilled for low wage and one of two things happens.

        1) they learn quickly, re-write their resume and are out the door to some high-paying job at a firm down the street because the best you can do on an "out of cycle" salary adjustment is $7k and they can get a $15k raise by switching jobs.  All you get is a heartfelt "thanks for everything.  I really learned a lot here." on their way out while you are at square one of a new job search.

        2) they don't learn and now you're stuck with an under-performing job-surfer that read something on the internet about how IT was the industry of the future but doesn't have the brains or ambition to put in the work it takes to become good at it.  ...Or has skills related to a technology that was current 4 years ago and refuses to get up to speed/certified on the new products.

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 01:02:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you get training at the bottom (0+ / 0-)

          not in the middle or close to the top.  at that point, you should be ready for the job.

          Some companies do have benefits like annual training budgets.  

          -You want to change the system, run for office.

          by Deep Texan on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:02:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, the fake resume is a big deal (3+ / 0-)

        There is a huge amount of pride in scamming the American system from many folks here in the H-1B sector. Here's a well-known story:

        I was chatting with “Slim” a few desks down from me yesterday. A few months ago there were 90 of us contract programmers and analysts here in one room, and now there are only ten, and we will all soon be gone. The guestworkers from India are all calling around looking for new jobs.

        My friend Slim was helping “Rajiv”, the guy who sits in the row in front of us, when Raj got a call from a recruiter, and Raj was claiming all sorts of skillsets that Slim knew he couldn’t do. So Slim asked Raj, “Why are you telling them that?” And Raj said, “You Americans are too honest. We lie to get the job, and when we get there, we help each other out. And if none of us there know how to do it, then we just move on to the next job.”

        When I got to this gig, 90 of us came here in the course of a few weeks, and only two of us were Americans. Now, of the few who are left, most are Americans, because we didn’t lie about what we could do. But the “Powers That Be” had to try to hire at least two guestworkers who couldn’t do the job before they would break down and hire an American who could.

        And that’s how the game works.

        There's a brazen lack of honesty and truth in many.
    •  I'm not trying to set up an argument (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eyesbright, elfling, kurt

      I'm asking because the guys I see coming from India (which I believe is the source country for about 50% of the visa holders) are all simply BS grads.  In other words entry level workers.  Specialized in that they chose computer science, but little or no actual work experience.

      What I do see is a population of young newly trained workers more inclined to work the ridiculous long hours sometimes demanded on projects and willing to work for less than the (former) going US wage.

      I also see them coming here to be channels to communicate requirements to teams of coders back in India.  Large companies like Infosys realized early that in outsourcing one of their more vulnerable problems was the communication struggle.  Many H1Bs go toward this kind of IT worker.

      By the way, some of these guys are not only respected coworkers of mine but also friends and family.

      I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

      by Satya1 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:33:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We had set pay-bands for each role (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster, Deep Texan

        Everyone that was hired was paid in the same range as an American employee based on their job cauterization.

        I do think though that H1-B's had a minimum term or something where if they left before a certain time they had to refund the costs we paid for their visa.... that would be more of a HR thing though, I wasn't directly responsible for managing that.

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:54:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You hired them in April and waited (0+ / 0-)

          until October for them to start work?

          If you did not, then the company you hired from was operating outside of the law for your benefit.

          How do you feel about that?

          •  I have no idea what you are talking about (0+ / 0-)

            Why would I hire them and then wait?  

            Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

            by Wisper on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:19:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you even know how the H-1B program works? (0+ / 0-)

              You have to file H-1B paperwork in beginning in April for the fiscal year. The H-1B visa cannot start work until October.

              How were you able to import someone and have them start working immediately?

              Did you
              1. use only entry level OPT workers fresh out of college?
              2.  allow them to illegally work for you?
              3.transfer them from a human H-1B trafficker middleman who illegally filed for them previously  when he had no job for them?

              How is it possible that you don't know about the April filing October start date?

              •  This how it's been since 2008. He may have used (0+ / 0-)

                them earlier when it wasn't an issue.

              •  That is only for 1st time applicants (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Roadbed Guy

                These people were already in the country... we had to file some kind of "amendment request" or something and pay a bunch of fees.. again, this is all handled by Human Resources.

                The formal process takes months but the person can start work as soon as we get some kind of clearance letter from the government.

                These people were NOT fresh out of college, they had years of IT experience both in their home country and in the US.

                NO ONE worked without being officially on payroll and paid in full.

                ..and yes, we absolutely worked with a "human H1-B trafficker". We referred to him as a "Code Coyote".  I had to meet him in an underground parking garage in NorthEast DC and we bought our employees out of the back of a box-truck and paid in cash with small unmarked non-sequential bills.

                ...or wait, no ... we didn't.  We hired them from their contract positions that they were close to finishing for other organizations in DC and our HR and Employee lawyers handled the paperwork.

                I have never interviewed people while they were still overseas applying for their first H1-B visa.  I suppose thats why I've never done the April-October thing.

                Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                by Wisper on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:36:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you have plausible deniability. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  How do you know that they were not at a body shop such as Dibon Solutions an American temp staffing company which filed over 800 H1-b and warehouse unemployed foreign citizens and then sell them to larger American companies.

                  Dibon was indicted but the large companies, such as yours claimed plausible deniability and can move on to other companies.

                  Your company is part of the racket whether you know it or not.  i suspect you know it though and are acting ignorant about the practice.

                  If the sponsoring company did not need the employee any more, they should not be able to sell the H-1B to your company.  Your company should have been required to file for your own person from abroad.

                  You are part of a racket.

                  The DOJ should also indict the companies, such as yours that encourage the human trafickers to warehouse the H-1b visa workers.

                  •  Cool sotry bro... needs more dragons (0+ / 0-)

                    Dibon was a payroll scam where they hired H1-B's under false job openings and then used them on other standard work and "only paid then when there was work to do".  Which means they sat on legal visas unpaid and for all purposes unemployed unless and until Dibon found work for them.

                    That has absolutely nothing to do with our situation. These people were actively working in real IT jobs in the DC area (often Northern Virginia).  They were on contract work and rather then finish their contract and go back to their home country, they were looking for another job in DC that could hire H1-B talent. us.

                    So we hired developers that were working at some software company doing litigation-related application development in SharePoint for a 3rd party vendor that sold its product to large law firms and brought them in-house to leverage that experience to rebuild our internal Sharepoint platform to offer client-facing extranets for our large and complex litigation matters for real-time collaboration and document publishing/review between our legal teams and our client's executive staff and internal counsel.

                    If there are companies out there abusing the H1-B system or the individuals within the system (and you and I both know there are), then they should be uncovered and punished.  ..but spare me the blanket-indictment against the entire system as a "racket" and every single individual and organization that uses this legal method of hiring talent as "conspirators" or "enablers" of human trafficking.

                    Scare harder.  This is the kind of "its all a scam" groupthink used to gin up immigrant-hate about how they are illegally warping some loophole in the system to put Americans out of work.

                    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                    by Wisper on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 05:30:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Dibon was indicted on H-1B VISA FRAUD!!!!! (0+ / 0-)


                      This is not up for dispute.

                      Third party placement of H-1B workers is illegal!!!!

                      •  Read your own damn link (0+ / 0-)

                        They were indicted for exactly what I said... misrepresenting that they had jobs using fake job descriptions, farming out the H1-B's as hourly consultants  and then only paying the H1-B's for when they could give them work....which is against the law since H1-B positions must be full-time salaried positions.  (Like mine were..and like the jobs the people I hired had when they interviewed with me).

                        We did not hire "farmed out H1-B" as 3rd party consultants... we hired them completely for salaried full-time positions and transferred their H1-B sponsorship to our firm, which is legal as long as we pay a fee and get written approval form the USCIS.... which our HR department did.

                        Here's the link on how to start this process.

                        oh, and.. from that link:

                        3) Does the regular H1B Quota (Cap) affect the H1B transfer process?
                        No, the H1B transfer is a separate process, and it has nothing to do with H1B quota. It is a transfer of your existing H1B approval to a new company and is not a ‘new’ H1B (only new or first-time H1B visa applications are counted towards the regular annual quota).
                        Just like only new or first-time H1B applicant have to do the apply in April, start in October timeline thing.

                        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                        by Wisper on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:48:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  You may want me to whisper but will shout! (0+ / 0-)

                      YOUR COMPANY IS PARTAKING IN H-1B FRAUD.

                      You wrote:
                      "I do think though that H1-B's had a minimum term or something where if they left before a certain time they had to refund the costs we paid for their visa"


                      Making the H-1B visa recipient repay you if he leaves before a certain time is indenturing that worker. This is a fraudulent use of the visa. You are supposed to take that risk.  If an American IT worker  quits a job he does not have to repay the headhunter or any charges incurred.

                      Sharepoint is a very common skill and it would take any U.S. IT person a day or two to familiarize themself with this "litigation-related" application development in SharePoint.  Don't try to bullshit IT Professionals with this crap.

                      If I had to make a guess, you are an attorney outfit who is getting a piece of the job-shop action of renting out H-1B workers on the open market.

                      If I am wrong, I dare you to name the commercial third party vendor who sells their software to large law firms.  If they are looking for developers they will truly appreciate being advertised for free here. No?

                      Immigration attorneys are the scum of the earth.

                      •  I am not in HR (0+ / 0-)

                        I know we put retention strings on relocation costs of American workers and on signing bonuses for specific skills... I honestly don't know what we did with the H1-B costs... admittedly I was making an assumption there.  As I stated, this was all handled by HR professionals and Emp Law attorneys.  I made hiring decisions for my departments, I did not get involved in on-boarding paperwork.  

                        And if you think some hack with a day or two to familiarize themselves with SharePoint would so much as get a returned phone call as a courtesy to tell them they aren't even qualified for an interview, you are clearly outside of any managerial level of any company of any size.  For good reason.  What fucking back-end-just-do-your-job-and-go-home-while-the-grown-ups-run-the-company job do you have to call yourself an "IT Professional"?  I was on Microsoft's original Legal CIO Advisory Board for DC when they were trying to get SharePoint into the legal marketplace as a viable document management solution and at SharePoint 2.0 they were SOOOOO far away with out of the box functionality, even they scrapped the idea and focused instead to financial firms at first and didn't circle back to AmLaw 100 law firms until years later.   a day or two to familiarize themselves with "litigation-related" application development? have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

                        I've been in this field for over 20 years and an executive manager for over 14 of those years and the day I need a fucking righteous lecture/indictment from an anonymous blogger with an uninformed cynical axe to grind, I'll be sure to let you know.

                        And lucky for you, you do not have to guess because if you did you would only make yourself look like the ass you are.  You want to throw accusations about illegality around I suggest you find more than "if I had to make a guess" bullshit to back your lame uninformed ass up.  And the big-boy word for "attorney outfit" is "law firm" and this all happened at one of the largest corporate law firms in the world; which if you've never worked in that kind of environment just say "I don't know what I am talking about" and move along.

                        What the fuck does naming 3rd party vendors have to do with anything?  There are literally THOUSANDS of vendors that exist solely to cater specifically to the law firm market, of which Washington DC (along with NYC, SF, & Boston) is a major location.  Huge companies like Hummingbird (since bought by Open Text), Interwoven (since purchased by Autonomy), Concordance, Summation, Ringtail, iConect, MDY, LegalKey, ELITE or mutlinational firms that have legal specific offerings like Xerox, Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, Deloitte, Canon, all the way to small niche companies like WatkinsIT (based out of Bethesda..that does phenomenal SharePoint work btw), Crow Canyon, DocPoint, IntAPP.... for christ sake... what the fuck am I even listing these for.. you clearly have no idea how law firms work anyway.  These are just words to you.

                        No wonder you are scared of people coming over here looking to get into the IT job market.  If I had my head that far up my ass I would be nervous about qualified people out-shining me too.

                        Whisper..shout... accuse... do whatever the hell you feel like you need to do... what the fuck do I care?  I have a company to run... you have hate to spew.  I'm going back to doing my job now.. you should go back to desperately trying to protect yours from brown people.

                        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                        by Wisper on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:37:25 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Just as I thought (0+ / 0-)

                          You are an immigration attorney who knows nothing about software development.

                          You were the one who claimed to have hired H-1B workers from a third party because they knew sharepoint not me.

                          If someone already is a Sharepoint developer, they can pick up any application built in Sharepoint.  That's the whole point of Sharepoint.

                          You are not a software developer, so that's why you don't know these things.

        •  A true story (0+ / 0-)

          An Indian-American friend of mine who had 10-15 years in IT with high end application development at the time was a final candidate for a job 2-3 years ago.  When it came time to talk salary, he was asked if he expected to be compensated with an American or an Indian salary.

          I'm glad to hear you're using the H1B system the way it was supposed to be used.  There is still a lot of abuse though and those of us working in the trenches so to speak see it all the time.

          I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

          by Satya1 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:23:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Like a moth drawn to a flame, I keep coming (8+ / 0-)

    to your diaries in hope of finding some fire.  Instead there is just more smoke and obfuscation.  

    For example, clicking on the link supplied in this blurb

    But this kind of anecdotal evidence is usually misleading. We don't know what kind of businesses the president was referring to. He should have known that there are many unemployed engineers. In fact, the Census puts the number at 1.8 million
    reports that there are 101,000 unemployed US born engineers in this country, not 18 times that many!

    Egad!! Is * anything * in the diary believable?

  •  Maybe we should change H1B so that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, greengemini

    visa takers get the mean pay for that field.  At least then we would know that the industries are not doing it just to pay lower wages.

    "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

    by Sychotic1 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:48:09 AM PDT

    •  Or better yet... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mannie, Eyesbright, kurt

      ...impose a federal tax of 50% of the visa holder's total compensation (not just his/her wages) for each of the first 5 years of employment starting with the year of first hire.  That would encourage employers to look on-shore for candidates.

      The road to Hell is paved with pragmatism.

      by TheOrchid on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:03:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There were 50,000,000 people hired (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG, Deep Texan, cryonaut, johnny wurster

        in the United States last year.

        About 128,000 of them were H1 visa holders.

        That is 1 out of 500.  Which indicates that statistically speaking, employers more or less already are looking first to onshore candidates.

        •  I'll assume your statistics are flawed... (0+ / 0-)

          ...unless you have some evidence that employers are hirihg Americans in preference to HiB visa holders.  (For example, you clearly conflate hirees who might compete with H1B visa holders with those who clearly would not).  And even in that case, the tax would still be a good idea; there's no reason, in a nation of 300+ million people, to look for employees off shore, unless you're just trying to save a buck by screwing Americans.

          And 50,000,000 people hired last year?  BLS statistics show around 150K people hired per month in 2012 - that's one helluva long way from fifty million.  Can't imagine where you got your figure from.

          The road to Hell is paved with pragmatism.

          by TheOrchid on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 12:26:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your figures are crap, honestly (4+ / 0-)

          There are about 150,000,000 workers. You are saying 1 in 3 workers were hired last year?

          And what the H-1B does is take off the top of the cream jobs in IT. Besides the H-1B, there is the J-1 (500,000 J-1 per year, including doctors and many professionals), the F-1, the B-1, the O-1, the L-1, and probably a couple more. All told, it is more than 1,000,000 per year.

          We have hundreds of thousands of OUR OWN KIDS who graduated from college who cannot get good jobs. I want jobs for them. The H-1bs can all jump in the Pacific ocean.

          Why the hell do you people want college kids to be unemployed?

          •  I'm not saying that, the US Government (0+ / 0-)

            is saying that - it's in the PDF linked just above.

            I suspect that what those numbers really count, however, is that if one person is hired for 3 different jobs, that counts as a "3" in the tabulations.

            Nevertheless, 50,000,000 hiring events took place last year.  And since H1B visa holders are prohibited from changing jobs, they can only be hired once.

            So, to parse words, out of 500 "hiring events" - H1B visa holders were only involved once leaving ~499 "hiring events" open for US workers.

            Seriously, if US workers can't compete given those odds, they're just not trying!

            •  Unemployed Americans (0+ / 0-)

              must be lazy.

              You are one cruel person. Roadkill Guy.

              •  Not lazy so much as disingenuous (0+ / 0-)

                if they use this as an excuse for being unemployed.

                Seriously, it is not the fault of immigrants.  It is something that we as Americans have done to ourselves.

                •  It's not the fault of immigrants (0+ / 0-)

                  It's the fault of the H-1B visa.

                  People are often required to train their H-1B replacements.  DYOG projects happen all the time and you know this.

                  •  The number of H-1B visa holders is absolutely (0+ / 0-)

                    tiny compared to the number of available jobs.

                    In particular, there are 3.7 million job openings in the United States right now.

                    Even if the entire annual allotment of H1 visa holders were brought in in an instant, there would still be 3.6 million open jobs.

                    My point is "why are there so many unfilled jobs"?  Clearly, US companies are opting not to hire * anybody * for these positions - US or foreign.

                    So, US workers are not being hired, one way or another.  That much is clear.

                    Now, let's say there was some type of visa that allowed 500,000 of these jobs to be filled - an absolute travesty, right?   Well, maybe not insofar as the influx of workers into the country would spawn new economic activity that would result in additional taxes accruing to the local, state, and federal governments plus these people would need houses to live in, food to eat, etc - all activities that employ "real" American.

                    Bottom line, the "American Worker" would benefit.

      •  If we wanted to disincentivize foreign hiring, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, VClib, IT Professional

        we'd just cut back the visa program.  If we're not going to do that, we're not going to impose an excise tax on hiring.

    •  I just want them to have portability (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If they're bringing key skills, we shouldn't tie them to a particular employer. If they want to change jobs, they should be able to, just like any other American worker.

      IMHO, the entirety of the problem with H1-B is that the workers can't quit and stay legally in the US.

      Changing this will make it more likely that the visa is used as intended, for key employees, rather than to hire people with a BS right out of school.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:33:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Bosses (6+ / 0-)

    have brought in everyone from tree planters to landscape laborers to welders, when no one answers their ads within 48 hours for $9/hr jobs that are posted in the smallest circulation paper in the state, thus establishing no domestic workers "are available."

    Something's gotta change.

    Orly, it isn't evidence just because you downloaded it from the internet.

    by 6412093 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 11:50:07 AM PDT

    •  According to the other diarist at this site (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deep Texan, johnny wurster

      whose pet peeve is H-1 visas, it is not even required to show that there are no US workers with the requisite skills.

      So I'm not sure is up with this - clearly both options can't co-exist.

      •  There is a pro-forma requirement (5+ / 0-)

        I've personally seen them used to hire fresh graduates with no particularly special skills.

        I have also seen them used properly to hire fresh PhDs who had unique experience in a field.

        I'd rather we just stapled a green card to every US STEM diploma from an accredited university. It's nuts that we have an immigration policy that sends people with degrees from Caltech and MIT and the like back to their home countries, while simultaneously importing fresh BS graduates from midranked universities in India and China because they wrote "Java" on a resume.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:38:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  US colleges and universities are for U.S. kids (0+ / 0-)

          Why are we educating so many kids from other countries and denying or own kids that critical opportunity?

          Why staple a green card when we should be educating American kids to take those jobs?

          Everyone thinks America is where you go to GET something, not where you go to GIVE something.

          There are plenty of people already here that can give back to the society and make America better.  It's not just about getting stuff.  (education, jobs, green cards)

          •  America is great because (0+ / 0-)

            of our history of skimming the best and brightest and most determined people from other nations since our founding.

            Why would we want to give that up?

            And even the college students who go home after getting an American university degree take with them our culture, our values, and raise the stature and understanding of the United States.

            I studied with many foreign students and am smarter for it.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:43:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The best and brightest do not need (0+ / 0-)

              H-1B work visas.
              They have an O-1 extraordinary visa for that.  It can be self sponsored.  Employers have no business in immigration matters.

              THe H-1B is for ordinary workers.

              •  O-1 is a significantly higher bar (0+ / 0-)

                O-1 pretty much means you have to be internationally known as an expert in your field. I think there's room and demand for a category that's a step down from that. For example, a freshly minted graduate of MIT or Caltech, even at the bachelor's level,  is someone who should be able to work here with an easy path to citizenship, regardless of where they were born.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:40:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Two reasons, both involving $$ (0+ / 0-)

            1) Foreign undergraduate students are subsidizing American students' tuition.

            Foreign students on visas pay full out-of-state tuition, which is set well above cost at state schools in order to subsidize in-state students' tuition. They're as valuable to state-funded schools as out-of-state students are (i.e. very valuable).

            They're also not eligible for any state or federal financial aid or social welfare programs, and most schools require them to maintain health insurance, and they're not allowed to work (outside of internships where the work they produce is of far more value than any stipend they might receive), and they pay most taxes, so they're basically free money as far as all levels of government are concerned.

            2) Foreign STEM Ph.D students are doing highly skilled labor for shockingly low compensation.

            By the time an American student is a junior in a STEM program, s/he knows that going into a Ph.D program is a terrible decision financially - it's something you only do if you're hopelessly in love with your field and with research. Ph.D applicants have the following career trajectory to look forward to:

            Step 1: 4-8 years of going to school and working 20-40 hours a week in a teaching or research assistantship (doing work that requires at least a bachelor's degree and probably a master's) for a stipend that barely exceeds the poverty line;

            Step 2: 2-10 years of postdoctorate fellowships, working 60+ hour weeks doing work that requires a Ph.D for an average salary of around $30-40k;

            Step 3:

            a) For the 'lucky' few percent: Begin your real career, now in your early-mid 30s, with a tenure-track appointment as an assistant professor. For a moderate paycheck that wouldn't even excite most people with bachelor's degrees in your field, you can look forward to around 5-10 years of 80-hour work weeks and constant terror that you won't be granted tenure and will have to start all over again at 40-45 with the career-ending black mark of having been denied tenure.

            b) For a few more 'lucky' winners: Accept a non-tenure-track full-time teaching position as an associate professor or equivalent. Get paid even less than your tenure-track peers, and enjoy the feeling that your career, which you spent well over a decade training for, has already ended before it even began.

            c) For a decent-sized cohort who happened to choose suitably applied research fields: Take a job in private industry or government. Get paid decently (still not that great unless you sell out and go to Wall Street), but say goodbye to your dreams of teaching and academic freedom. Enjoy working side by side with people who took jobs at the same companies for about the same salary fresh out of undergrad.

            d) For the unlucky remainder: Cobble together an assortment of part-time teaching positions. Consider going back for yet another degree so you can be certified to teach high school or practice patent law (pretty much the only remaining fields where your degree will be seen as an asset).

            Americans don't want to do that. It's exploitative. It's cruel. But the system needs to keep grinding out Ph.Ds, because they can't afford to hire enough teaching or research staff, because both instructional and research funding is too low. So they exploit foreign students, whom they can basically indenture.

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 05:15:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I think in that video of the attorneys (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt, IT Professional

        they explain the so-called "requirements" and how to pro-forma "comply" and if needed, chase off any US workers who somehow applied.

        Orly, it isn't evidence just because you downloaded it from the internet.

        by 6412093 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 04:51:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There's some joke requirements easily skirted (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Typical con is to take the fake resume of the H-1B holder, write his resume up as a job listing, post somewhere obscure, and toss all the applications. They put in zero effort to find an American, and actually make it even harder for an American to find a job with all of the fake job ads.

        "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

        by jfern on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:14:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  FYI (3+ / 0-)

    Virgil Bierschwale from emailed me this:

    To make it easier, let me show you what destroyed the middle class in America and created a middle class in the BRIC countries --- The U.S.-based CEO of one of the world’s largest hedge funds told me that his firm’s investment committee often discusses the question of who wins and who loses in today’s economy.

    The Atlantic: "The Rise of the New Global Elite" - In a recent internal debate, he said, one of his senior colleagues had argued that the hollowing-out of the American middle class didn’t really matter.

    “His point was that if the transformation of the world economy lifts four people in China and India out of poverty and into the middle class, and meanwhile means one American drops out of the middle class, that’s not such a bad trade,” the CEO recalled.

  •  What guest workers do we actually need? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eyesbright, WorkerInUSA, kurt

    I know that we need seasonal agricultural workers.  Fruit in my state doesn't get picked if the seasonal workers aren't there.

    What other guest workers are actually needed?  I understand the few with knowledge of home country's systems as mentioned above--a foreigner for work with their country's legal system, a foreigner for software attributes specific to their country, not construction workers and hotel maids or cooks to replace Americans who will work for a living wage.  Certainly not IT people to replace Americans with the knowledge needed.

    •  If there were no guest workers (0+ / 0-)

      Technology would create mechanical methods to pick fruits.
      When slavery ended, mechanical methods were invented to pick cotton.

      If slavery was still allowed, things like the washing machine, the dish washer, vacuum cleaner, Swiffer sweeper and such would not be mass produced.

      I drove by one farm in my state and saw some large contraptions on wheels connected to each other from above, lined up along rows of some produce.  

      Without researching, I am sure that contraption was being used in place of stoop labor.

      Don't tell me that innovation cannot replace near slave stoop labor.

      •  So why don't you write diaries against innovation (0+ / 0-)

        instead of against immigrants?

        Because you totally hit the nail on the head that technological change has eliminated WAY more jobs for Americans than immigration ever has . . .. (in fact, most studies show that immigation has net positive effect on employment - i.e., something like 1.17 (or however many, the point being that it is higher than one) jobs are created for each immigrant, meaning that there is an excess that in the end benefit Americans.

  •  lets have some more anti-immigrant hatred... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wisper, Deep Texan, FG, Roadbed Guy

    My wife is an H1B (soon to be green card holder through marriage) University Professor, in a particular field with a shortage of qualified Americans, earning same wage as the American faculty.

    The reality is that most of the H1B holders (with the possible exception of the computer science field - which I am actually in) are contributing to the American society in a positive way, without taking anything away from qualified Americans.

    •  Yeah.. the hate has always been strong on this (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cryonaut, Deep Texan, FG, Roadbed Guy, askew

      Its only been like this on Daily Kos.  I never understood it.

      And its often written by people in the IT field.  The field where the major players are begging congress to raise the visa cap because we need high-level people so badly.

      Suddenly Bill Gates is an anti-American wage-slaver just looking to screw the American Middle Class or something... this was one of his biggest issues while he was at Microsoft.

      Intel, Google, IBM, Oracle, Apple... all of them are saying the same thing but somehow the entry-to-mid level IT guy with an anonymous blogger ID knows more about the IT industry then Gates, Jobs and Ellison.... and just spews a bunch of vile almost racist (most often anti-Indian) stereotypes about "all those kinds of people".

      ...and its always been welcomed here.  I have no idea why.

      Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

      by Wisper on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 01:24:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  personally, as someone who hires computer (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan

        programmers, and a programmer myself, I've found that the talent field available is not that spectacular. Perhaps only 1-2 out of every 20 applicants could do well on a decent logic test. I didn't mention it because I've never looked at the H1B applicants and thus can't compare. Is it a sign that low standards in college IT education are bearing fruit?

        •  my logic test back in the 90's (0+ / 0-)

          was why is a man hole cover round?

          there was also the popular water problem like in Die Hard 3.  

          lately, they have been asking better questions geared towards their current problems.  

          -You want to change the system, run for office.

          by Deep Texan on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:14:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The east asian school systems (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IT Professional

          are drill and kill style, and produce very inferior logic in their students. No creativity, no initiative.

          •  as an IT person (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I don't need creativity in my programmers as much as I need logical thinking. And there is a real lack of logical thinking being produced in many US educational facilities. Despite your semi-racist and utterly ignorant assertions, most east asian people I know (and my wife is one of those east asians) have some of the best logical thinking I've seen.

      •  well i was at microsoft and bill gates (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IT Professional

        did some screwing.  

        but he did it with american labor (contracting)

        -You want to change the system, run for office.

        by Deep Texan on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 02:10:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, really WOW (5+ / 0-)

        The IT worker, you know, the American worker, is NOT looking for competition. The CHEAP labor bosses, the capitalists like Larry Ellison, is looking for ways to get cheap labor. The IT workers who were until 1992 all American are not looking for a cheap incompetent H-1B to replace them. They are looking for jobs.

        The H-1B has produced a huge number of cheap low skilled cheats from East Asia, who are here to scam Americans and take the jobs.

        In today's world, Gates would NOT get a job from himself. He was a college dropout. Same with Jobs. Both were dropouts who got their first gig in a way not available any longer. They would have been replaced at age 35 (read stuff by Norm Matloff about this), and would now be unemployed. And, yes, those BOSSES want to make billions by hiring cheap low skilled scabs rather than Americans.

        I suppose that you think its cool that Americans DID have to train their H-1B replacements, and DID have to work with the 2 to 3 replacements for each American programmer. The US invented the entire IT sector, and now it has been taken over.

        Another issue - blacks used to work in IT, but no longer. A lot of prejudice in the H-1B worker, and they will not hire the American AA worker. Same with women. Female IT has gone from about 35% to about 19-20%. Strong prejudice against women too.

    •  Gee, you know nothing about the H-1B (3+ / 0-)

      The H-1B is NOT an immigration visa.

      From Wikipedia: The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H).

      It is not an immigration visa. It is a temporary work visa. And we need to end it NOW. We have hundreds of thousands of US college kids who need jobs. We do NOT need the H-1B.

    •  A professor in a field with a shortage of American (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IT Professional, wblynch


      Gee, what field is that? There is currently massive overproduction of Ph.D.s in every field that I am aware of.

      What's her field? Stat, math, biostat, bioinformatics, none of these have massive shortages. All have overproduction at the Ph.D. level.

      This myth of the shortage is ridiculous.

  •  Even as a proponent of increased immigration (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, IT Professional, wblynch

    I am not a fan of employment based immigration. Especialy not the schemes which give way too  much power to the corporate employers. A H1b, or agricultural worker who is completely at the mercy of his employer just to stay in this country, is nothing more than an indentured servant.

    The other problem with these schemes is that certain fields are too heavily impacted- like IT for example.  we need to diversify the immigrant pools so it's not just IT guys all the time.

  •  Not a fan of H1-B right now... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    as we have an FBI investigation going in with a state agency for two H1-B visa holders selling code they had written for the state to outside vendors.

    "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

    by Silvia Nightshade on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:58:04 AM PDT

  •  Today in The Daily Beast (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IT Professional

    "Too many college kids are living in Mom's basement, or working at Starbucks.  Like most personal finance columnists, I get the letters from them: what do I do?  How do I fix this? For many, the answer is grad school.  But I get the letters from grad students too.  A while back, I found myself talking to a professor whose school has a number of impressive-sounding graduate programs that were originally conceived as add-ons for a professional degree in law or medicine or business.  They are now attracting a number of students who just go for the standalone degree.  He didn't understand what the career path was for these kids, and he wasn't sure that they did either.  "

    This is the result of the H-1B and other work visas. It is not just that some of these kids could work in teh same jobs that low-talent cheap labor scabs from India could do. It is also the domino effect - the H-1B scabs take the high-pay high prestige jobs, pushing Americans down the job chain, and that pushes many at the bottom end to crap jobs.

    If you support the H-1B, you are really an economic traitor to other Americans. If it is not your children (it is mine), it is your brother, your mother or your dad.

    The American economy still has 7+% unemployment and that is just U2. Other measures are higher, much higher.

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