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   I was looking at Ted talks and found this one. This Masai boy - Richard Turere wanted to keep lions from killing his family's cows. He rigged up flashing lights that flash around the compound and it works. How is it US Ranchers cannot learn something from him and invent something useful instead of killing wolves? Link over the squiggly

Richard Turere

He's also an amazingly confident speaker in a second language, in front of a huge crowd at that age.

I know many African and other native people's have come up with ways to coexist with predators without killing them in mass slaughter, large guard dogs tend to work for one if you want to go back to basics.

I know one village started using Anatolian Sheep dogs I believe, they let them grow up as puppies with the sheep and so the dogs view the sheep as part of their family and protect them from cheetahs and lions.

There are so many ways to do this, Americans just like to shoot shit I guess.

Chaos

Originally posted to Chaoslillith on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:48 PM PDT.

Also republished by Barriers and Bridges.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This is quite intriguing indeed (6+ / 0-)

    unfortunately I an struggling to grasp just how many US ranchers are under assault by African lions ..  .. .. .

  •  Unfortunately, thinking through solutions like (7+ / 0-)

    this requires not succumbing to fear. The fearful prefer "final solutions" that result in death.

    What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

    by Words In Action on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:03:24 PM PDT

  •  NRA solution: (6+ / 0-)

    Arm the shepherds with semi automatic weapons.

  •  Donkeys or mules are very protective (4+ / 0-)

    and will keep predators away from other livestock, like sheep, if you give them a little time to get acquainted.  For  instance, pen them close enough to touch noses if they want, but not together, for a week or two.  Check out their individual reactions before you put them all together.

    Donkeys and mules are surprisingly aggressive toward predators, and tougher than you might think.  They also eat the same food as smaller grazing animals.

    An advantage over guard dogs, I think, is that you can't let the dogs bond with you, but a donkey or mule has a wider concept of his/her herd and will be happy to bond to you without neglecting the rest of the herd.

  •  Or, and I know this may sound crazy... (13+ / 0-)

    ...one could try more than one thing.

    Dogs help, but are not a perfect protection from predators -- same with donkeys or mules.  They are much less protection against feral dogs, however.  Feral dogs can easily gang-up on and overpower domesticated dogs, through numbers if nothing else.  Feral dogs happen to be the most common and dangerous predator I, personally, have to deal with.

    Coyotes, locally, are really only dangerous to sheep or calving cattle.  Mountain lions are rare, but do show up from time to time.  Feral hogs will kill a calf and/or a calving cow, but they are considered more varmints than predators, usually (though many of the same precautions are workable with them).

    Live traps help a bit, in some regions -- though, again, they are not perfect protection.  And when they do work, what does one do with the predator in question?  Locally, according to the game wardens, if it is not a protected animal, the suggested course is to kill the animal.  Other, lethal or wounding, traps are used from time to time -- but really can't be used if, for instance, one is also using dogs for protection.

    I've heard of people using lights connected to motion-detectors here.  They work for a while, at least until the predators become accustomed to them and begin to ignore them.  Again, feral dogs learn this very quickly.

    Sometimes, though, when all else fails, it is necessary to kill a predator to protect livestock.  That's just how it works out...

    I realize that there are those without experience in this sort of thing that may not like that response, but it is reality -- and we are a reality-based community, are we not?

    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

    by theatre goon on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:19:46 PM PDT

    •  A friend who had sheep had llamas (7+ / 0-)

      to protect them from predators. Llamas are dangerous to wolves, foxes and other predators (they kick really hard).

      Thinking about the various predators in the Sierra, though, it seems that llamas are better with dog-type animals who attack from below than with cat-type animals who attack from above.

      I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

      by woolibaar on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:03:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've heard good things about llamas... (7+ / 0-)

        ...as protection animals -- for smaller predators, at least.

        I believe that they get along much better with sheep than cattle -- at least, that's what I've heard.  I've been trying to decide between a burro and a llama for a while now, I'm leaning towards the burro, but that's mostly just personal preference.

        Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

        by theatre goon on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:16:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What type of livestock are you tryng to protect? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas

          Llamas are very good with sheep and goats, but not all Llamas are guards by nature.  They tend to bond with both breeds, but llamas have the same mineral requirements as opposed to goats needing more Zinc in their diet, which is dangerous to Llamas, and Alpacas (Camelids).  Not a showstopper, but one must be aware and on top of that fact and not let goats miss out on their Zinc intake as it can be fatal.  There are some that will do much better than others but that takes a keen eye to see which one in a hard will be that one.  If you want to guard cattle, then go with a good donkey as they can hold their own when it comes to cattle and the crowding and strength.  

          There is too much to explain here, but we have owned Llamas since 1992 and have had "some" experience with them.  In addition to Llamas, we also have a herd of 3 different breeds of sheep and Alpacas as well.  We also do a majority of our own veterinary work as well.

          The original thread about red lights at night for predator control is a very good one and they do work well from what I have read.  There are a few companies that sell light systems for this very problem, and I am looking into making my own, as this isn't high tech stuff we are talking about here.  KOS mail me if you want to learn more.  Oh, and by the way, I also use certain firearms to fend off predators as well as a last resort…but that’s another story, for another time and thread.

          "Don't Let Your Mouth Write A Check, That Your Butt Can't Cash."

          by LamontCranston on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:13:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Cattle. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpunk, KVoimakas

            Right now we do have one old longhorn cow that does a pretty good job against wild dogs -- get the right one, and they can be as good a defense as you can find.

            Locally, they practically give longhorns away at the sale, and they can survive on mesquite bark, so when you get a good one, they're easy to keep, even if they're not going to make you any money to speak of.

            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

            by theatre goon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:16:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I think feral hogs ought to be the (8+ / 0-)

      "shoot on sight" exception to game laws everywhere. They're invasive and wasteful and dangerous. Perfect example of how human meddling goes wrong.

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:38:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's a difference between (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LamontCranston

      shooting one or two animals vs the mass slaughter of wolves that has been going on this year.

      •  4% reduction in population isn't so huge (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, oldpunk

        I think they'd like to get back to the numbers that were agreed on then talk.

        But...

        They are really looking for states to take them, and there is a standing invitation in Idaho for any state to come and get as many as they'd like.

        Maybe corral em up with the lights and take them to where ever you are at and set them free.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:38:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are correct about domestic packs of dogs... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      I have personally seen two Alpaca herds destroyed with attacks from them.  One owner contracted me to rebuild her fencing from the ground up and she never questioned the expense of it as she already had lost a lot of money in dead and damaged investment Alpacas.  It isn't a very pretty site to see, and very good fencing with a barbed wire bottom edge would have prevented that type of attack coupled with two or three electrified wires on the outside of the perimeter fence.  I can't say enough about fencing, but it is the first line of defense, and great care in materials used, thought, expense should be given to it. And yes, sometimes you have to kill the predator.  

      "Don't Let Your Mouth Write A Check, That Your Butt Can't Cash."

      by LamontCranston on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:22:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wonderful! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, Marihilda

    Thank you.

    "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

    by Yasuragi on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:34:50 PM PDT

  •  You city folks are HILARIOUS (5+ / 0-)

    Let me explain how it is in the west.  Last fall we gathered 106 head of cows off of an 1800 ACRE "graze".  The cows were released on this graze in June, we gathered them up in September, and there was no human contact and barely any monitoring during that time.  In short, the cows were half wild by September.  The graze was a mixture of woods, blowdowns, box canyons and draws with rockfalls and open meadows.  A typical graze out here is 12-20 acres per cow/calf pair, and it is not monitored.  The cows don't "come in at night" and no one even checks on them more than twice a week, and even then the check may result in seeing only a half-dozen of the 100-plus head.  We don't have 13 year olds herding the cows all day and staying near them at night.  If you want to come out and live with our cows 24 hours a day for no pay have at it.  Or just shut up about things you know zero about.

    •  Then you don't... (0+ / 0-)

      have any concern about predators. Apparently in Africa it can be a problem and a plucky 13 year old boy figured something out to help. Don't know why this makes you feel like being a shit, but it clearly did and you were.

      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

      by Tonedevil on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 05:07:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are right for the wrong reasons (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock

        Coyotes and Mountain Lions don't prey on full-grown cows.  Likewise, by June calves are large enough that, combined with protective mama cows, they aren't very vulnerable to coyotes or lions, either.  This diary is about wolves, and your assumption goes out the window when wolves are the predators.  Mt. lions rarely take down animals larger than deer, and coyotes rarely take down even full sized, healthy deer, but wolves specifically prey on elk-sized ungulates.  And, you obviously are clueless about livestock and grazing in the West.  My guess is the closest you've been to a cow may have been a dairy barn in New England.

        •  As I mentioned I am aware (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          that Ranchers run things differently. Although I would think if you are worried about your livestock it may be better to monitor them somehow.

          I am not a rancher I admit that, what I think the problem is that many ranchers take shoot, poison or snare (strangling a wolf to death) as the only option to guarding their herds.

          Perhaps if they invested time and energy in coming up with ways to monitor and protect their herds, since many rancher graze on federal land for free, instead of killing everything in sight both sides would be happier.

          There are ways to do this, people just have to want to. I mean those herds are your livlihood, I would want to do everything I can to protect it short of killing an entire species of animal.

          Just saying.

          •  They don't graze for free, that's one (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon

            two, no one has ever come close to killing the entire species, wolf. Wolves always have been and probably always will be a species of least concern. Scientifically there are so many they are listed the same as the gray squirrel.

            three. He didn't suggest killing everything in sight, nor all  wolves, for all we know there are no wolves where he lives, he simply stated the facts about what it is like where they raise cattle.

            four, no one poisons anymore, it's illegal.

            You know before you start telling other people their business it might do to become informed. Better yet develop an interest in things in your own area instead of preaching to others about their own situation.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:12:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ummm yeah... about your numbers (0+ / 0-)
              Wisconsin hunters killed 105 wolves as of December 10th, very near the state's total quota of 116 wolves. That's out of a total estimated wolf population in the state of about 850. Which means hunters, in just over a month and a half, have killed about 12 percent of Wisconsin's wolves.
              Minnesota hunters have killed more than twice as many wolves as their neighbors, 243 as of December 10th, well over halfway to the state's quota of 400 wolves. But that's out of a total estimated population of around 3,000, meaning Minnesota hunters have killed about 8 percent of the state's wolves.
              Can you imagine if something wiped out 8-12% of the population of humans in one or two months? That is a massacre.
              Wolf hunting and trapping seasons closed Saturday in all but the Lolo and Selway zones where hunting seasons remain open through June 30.

              Depending on your point of view its been a good season or a tragedy. Hunters killed 252 wolves, and trappers 123, for a total of 375 wolves. Fish and Game sold about 43,300 wolf tags for the 2011-2012 season.

              That left a population of about 570, Fish and Game biologists estimated last month. If you don’t think we have enough wolves to function ecologically, as the Defenders of Wildlife does, this season’s been a disaster.

              Read more here: http://voices.idahostatesman.com/...

              Numbers for Idaho

              And they are TRYING to make snaring them legal again

              Link

              Oh and don't tell me some ranchers are not poisoning them anyway. Really?

              •  Oh and grazing for free (0+ / 0-)

                Per the BLM

                Link

                The Federal grazing fee, which applies to Federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service, is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, as modified and extended by a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year’s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2013 is $1.35 per AUM, the same level as it was in 2012.

                The Federal grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states. The figure is then adjusted each year according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production.  In effect, the fee rises, falls, or stays the same based on market conditions, with livestock operators paying more when conditions are better and less when conditions have declined.

                Now per this article this averages out to about $.05 a day per cow (depending on if it has gone higher or lower) Now private leasing of land to graze cows runs much higher. This is an article from Oregon so the numbers are Oregon - centric

                Link

                In contrast, the lease rate charged for grazing on state lands is considerably higher. For example, in 2007, it was $5.80 per AUM for state of OR lands (managed by the Division of State Lands, who manage ~ 634,000 acres in SE Oregon and lease most of it for grazing).A 2004 Oregon Secretary of State's audit found that the state's grazing fee should be changed. They determined that the fee had not been periodically reviewed, as is required; was not set to maximize revenue, which it is supposed to be; and they recommended that it be increased to a rate similar to that charged for private non-irrigated lands as reported by the USDA's National Agriculture Statistics Service. Lease rates in some western states are considerably higher than in oregon.

                The private lease rate in the 11 western states is also considerably higher than the Federal lease rate -- as of 2008, the private lease rate in OR for non-irrigated land averaged $14.10 per AUM, while that for irrigated land averaged $24 - $26 per AUM (Beefmagazine March 08). As of 2006, the average private lease rate across the 11 western states averaged $15.10 per AUM, ranging from $8 - $23 per AUM.

                So yeah, Federal lands = pretty close to free.
        •  Why would I... (0+ / 0-)

          be in New England? I am a Sacramento, CA native. An hour down the road from me are some of the largest dairies in the world and 3 hours away I have purchased beef carcasses from the family that raised them. Not that I have anything to do with them, but Sacramento was close enough to country that I picked tomatoes and pears as a teen and have run IT shops for grain companies as an adult.
          While I understand that your cattle don't need any protection some ranchers seem to feel differently. I refer you to this web site I'm not the author so I can't say for sure, but I think that might be the reason for the wolf mention.

          This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

          by Tonedevil on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:25:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  would you please leave reality out of this? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon, oldpunk

      real life has nothing to do with discussions of wolves.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:43:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lions will not attack Masai, maybe it's because (0+ / 0-)

    they drench their dead with blood and leave them out for predators to harvest.

    Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

    by the fan man on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 05:22:40 AM PDT

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