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This guy is no hero.

So the fact that he's got some mediocre IT skills gives him the right to go to a foreign country and start yelling into a microphone about clandestine U.S. spying programs that he knows next to nothing about?

I'm calling B.S. on this guy right now.

It's one thing to decide that you want to play the hero and tell everybody that there's a super scary data mining program that could potentially target every U.S. citizen.

OK, for the moment, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

They'll be plenty of congressional hearings to sort that out in the coming months.

But when you flee to another country and start revealing state secrets, then it gets just a bit messier.

I know it may be hard for many people here to swallow, but some of the spying we do may really have valid national security purposes.

And if it's not kept secret, it's probably not going to be very effective and might end up getting people dead on our side.

You can't have it both ways.

If you think that spying on other sovereign nations (and their citizens) is sometimes, unfortunately necessary, then you have to conclude that in those instances WE HAVE TO KEEP SHIT SECRET!

And right now, this joker is running around hong Kong bloviating Bill O'Reilly style into every open microphone that's stuck in front of his big mouth.

He's got absolutely no clue what it is he's trying to do, and he is endangering our security.

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Comment Preferences

  •  IF I were going to reveal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jkay, Sandy on Signal, klompendanser

    top secret information about the US security apparatus, I would have probably fled further than Hong Kong.  When do the off planet flights for tourists begin?

  •  Kinda too late now . . . (20+ / 0-)

    Dude is lost in his own fancy spy movie, Oh, and hubris

    •  Exactly (9+ / 0-)

      He got delusions of being Jason Bourne.

      "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

      by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:54:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  he sure ss hell does not speak for (10+ / 0-)

        Me.
        He's a libertarian Ron Paul groupie.
        Who believes its his job to shove hos beliefs down this country's throat even of we don't share it.
        Whether you hate the or love them, congress was voted in by the people in democratically he'd elections.
        He was not voted in for anything or anyone.
        And someone who steals and leaks documents about acts that are legal, whether they are wrong or right.
        That is not whistleblowing.
        People need to read a dictionary who scream he is.

        Jesus Christ....china.
        Next up we'll get a selfie of him posing I front of the mirror playing martyr and running to hide on another country.
        He should take Russia up on their offer.

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:37:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Meh. He was your basic (0+ / 0-)

          high priced (for the gub'mint, that is) rent-a-tech, glorified cubicle flunky. I doubt very much he could tell the Chinese anything they don't already know. It's kinda like acting horrified back in 1966 to discover that the U.S. government's clandestine acronyms were [gasp!] spying on Soviets!!!

          The big reveal in all this was letting US - We The People - know they're digitizing our entire lives and hiding us away in cryogenically cooled zetabyte server farms out west. We're the ones it's "secret" from, while we're being steadily impoverished to pay for all these fun toys. Governments have been at this game for generations, not a one of 'em would ever be taken by surprise to discover in the newspaper one day that they spy and are spied upon. Really.

          I can see a fairly readable sci-fi novel coming, though. An Area-51 type deal with the tunnel-dwelling grays to smuggle our cyber-clone selves (our "dossiers") off-world before the incoming planet-buster hits, transport us to the joint Mormon-Scientology owned AI moon that orbits Nibiru (sole remaining gas giant orbiting Sol's dark partner in a system long known - but kept secret - to be binary). Where we'll all be loaded into individually designed personal heaven game programs to be the serfs the Mormons and Scientologists get to rule over once Xenu or whoever their godling is lets them graduate to the next game level.

          •  you could be right.... (4+ / 0-)

            but at this point, it's the fact that he's even doing this.
            that is repulsive.
            by this I mean talking to the Chinese.
            jerk.
            at some point, progressives would be wise to stop calling punks heroes.

            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

            by Christin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:10:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  not buying this... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tony Situ, Sylv

            ..."too cool for school", jaded attitude that you and some others are taking by proposing that there cant possibly be anything he 's telling them that they already don't know.

            That is obviously false,  or he wouldn't need to tell them anything!

            The other red herring being tossed around is that its old news that we spy on China.

            That does not mean that its ok for him to tell them how, where and what were looking at.

            I find arguments like that simplistic and self serving.

            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

            by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:49:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I didn't say there can't (0+ / 0-)

              possibly be anything he's telling them that they don't already know. I said I doubt he knows enough to tell them anything they don't already know. Your red herring is actually a scarecrow.

              It was the revelation that WE have all been targeted that's the shocker. Nobody's shocked that they're spying on China. Still, China may find his data valuable.

              •  It doesn't change the fact.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv

                ....that he shouldn't be telling China anything, despite your semantic back flips and seemingly laissez faire attitude towards the whole thing.

                You'll get no argument from me that the expansion of the surveillance state and war profiteering are not the best uses of our scarce resources.

                I'd rather build schools, bridges and railroads.

                However, this isn't simply a case of "shooting the messenger". This case can't just be gift wrapped so effortlessly, counselor.

                He first revealed something valuable, but then proceeded to try and burn the whole house down with us in it.

                That's a pretty full days work for a "glorified cubicle flunky", or whatever it was you referred to him as.

                That's a pretty big leap of faith you seem to be willing to make for a guy you obviously hold in such low regard.

                "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:55:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heh. My low regard (0+ / 0-)

                  for this revelator is far healthier imo than your fear and loathing. Just not a fearful person, I guess, and I'm way too old and jaded to start cowering from shadows at this point. You'll encounter this from time to time here in what used to be "The Home Of The Brave."

                  Snowden's choice of China to appeal for personal safety is really quite bizarre, I'll leave his reasoning on that to him because he's the one who is doing it. We'll all see how that turns out for him in the end.

                  Of course this is "shooting the messenger," a standard issue sleight of mind distraction. "Look over there! It's Halley's comet!" Your outrage at the idea that he might tell China that U.S. spies are spying on them in no way diminishes the gross violation of law by NSA, et al. that affects We the People right here in River City [U.S. of A.]. We learned about it because the messenger told us about it, it cannot be untold now no matter what happens to Snowden or any judgments of him you care to issue. Reality doesn't work that way.

                  I am one of the people who will be in line to cause this government and its grossly overpaid spies as much trouble as humanly possible. Hopefully to get the secret law and its secret interpretations disinfected with ample sunshine and restore my sadly abused rights as a citizen and taxpayer in THIS country. I do not live in China, and I'd guess you don't either.

                  The leap of faith is the one our government has ordered US to make, and I am not making it. That doesn't hamper your efforts to distract people's attention from the meat of the issue, it just informs you that it's not working on me. I'm sure you can learn to live with that.

                  •  Fear and loathing (0+ / 0-)

                    You are so awesome!

                    And just think, I've never been to Las Vegas and don't even gamble.

                    Hey, I love gov't accountability and transparency as much as the next guy.

                    Nothing wrong with that.

                    But this guy is not equipped to make the calls he is currently making.

                    If he really wanted to put his money where his mouth is, he would have stayed in this country, folded his tent after revealing Prism and taken his chances.

                    By going to China and talking out of school, he's undone all the potential good he may have been able to accomplish.

                    To say this guy is an extremely flawed messenger would be the understatement of the year.

                    "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                    by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:12:17 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There you go again. (0+ / 0-)

                      What Snowden revealed is not un-revealed by his subsequent actions no matter how often you claim that it is. Point of fact, live with it.

                      I would not presume to make the judgment calls you have presumed upon yourself for Snowden. As I said, the cost to him is not yet clear and you may yet get your wish to see him dead or merely buried alive. Having had some experience blowing the whistle on corporate-governmental gross malfeasance and lawbreaking in my life - as a subcontracted "rent-a-tech" sort of like Snowden but worse (I went in for the specific purpose, didn't "just happen upon" shit that pissed me off) - I am intimately familiar with why someone would choose to get the fuck outta Dodge rather than stay here and go to prison (or get conveniently killed) for your satisfaction.

                      Again, I'll wish him good luck, because he'll need it. Going to the Chinese was probably not the best choice he could have made.

                      •  Believe it or not... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sylv

                        ...I don't want to see this guy go to prison, although he's going to need a miracle to avoid it if he comes back here.

                        I don't have bloodlust for whistleblowers, and I think Obama's record going after them is incredibly puzzling and disgraceful.

                        But you can't just turn on the firehose, point it in all directions, then stand back and expect to be universally loved and admired.

                        You've got to be a bit smarter about it than this fellow was.

                        "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                        by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:34:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You said Snowden is (0+ / 0-)

                          "not equipped to make the calls he's currently making." You wrote this diary saying he needs to "zip it" and not talk to the Chinese about our little internal SuperSpy problem. Presumably because 1. He can't possibly know anything about it because he's just a cubicle flunky, and 2. The ebil China guys might find out from this know-nothing that the U.S. gub'mint is spying on THEM!!! [Oh, NOEZ!!!].

                          Your concern for Mr. Snowden's wisdom in the matter of his escape from the U.S. government's (and President Obama's) notorious maltreatment of whistleblowers and dissenters is obviously a distraction from the information of MOST concern to those of us who still live here in the U.S. of A., and who have been and are being dragnetted to fucking death by the monster rights-stomper we allowed by our collective fear and apathy to be created. A golem of immense and entirely uncontrollable power that cannot be simply undone...

                          [Elrond] The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this.
                          China has no power to slay this beast and will do no more than make noise for the world's press to frame. China has known since long before I was born that it is a target of our intelligence gathering. That's all part of the geopolitical games nations play and is nothing new or particularly frightening to them. Or to me, and apparently not to Snowden or the NSA. "Secret" being a relative term at that game level, our own ignorance of things stealthy not withstanding due to the fact that it's US they're keeping such secrets from, not the Chinese (or the Russians, insert Most Favored Nation status 'enemy' of moment here). Because it's US they're afraid of, US they are spying on.

                          I have informed you that no amount of feigned concern for either Snowden or the poor, helpless U.S. spy-monster changes a single thing about what we have learned from Snowden - now confirmed by multiple sources in Congress and the spy-monster itself - about our Constitutional rights being violated wholesale by those once naively trusted to protect and defend. Nothing you can say will change that either.

                          •  Looky here (0+ / 0-)

                            You're the one who pointed out that he was "lowly cubicle flunky".

                            You're preaching to the choir.

                            The problem I have with the hard left in here is that they love to make an all or nothing call with regard to people like this (good) and our surveillance/spy infrastructure (berry, berry bad).

                            It's not that simple, despite your attempts to make it so.

                            That is all.

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:22:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Our difference of opinion (0+ / 0-)

                            is precisely that we have very different viewpoints on what is or is not acceptable in the modern world per governmental overreach, blanket violation of cherished Constitutional rights, and the ACTUAL degree of existential danger we face from Middle Eastern cave-dwellers and/or wannabe mass murderers using Islam as a convenient excuse for their murderous tendencies.

                            Truth: You and I are far more likely to die being struck by lightning than to be killed in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil conducted by a foreign terrorist. Our chances with a home-grown terrorist are slightly worse, but not meaningfully so. Our chances of dying in an airline crash are considerable enough to regulate that industry heavily, but our chances of dying in an airliner that gets bombed out of the sky are even less than getting struck by lightning, averaged over all the years that there have been airliners for us to fly on. The overwhelming majority of those were accomplished by jilted ex-spouses and/or other True Amerikan [TM] killers for entirely mundane reasons.

                            I have never been so afraid of Islamic terrorists that I was willing to surrender my rights as a citizen of this country. I am still not so afraid of them that I'll tolerate abuse of my rights. Others are responsible for their own reactions and fears, they can do whatever they believe is necessary to protect themselves so long as that doesn't include violation of MY rights. I'm sort of defensive and protective of those, do not apologize to anybody for that. They can mind their own damned business, as can the gub'mint.

                            By the way and just so you know, I have sworn to "protect and defend" more than once in my life. Hell, I was born into it. Have always taken it seriously, and know very well there are legitimate 'secrets' that individuals and nations need to keep. I've always kept those, will go to my grave keeping those. The problem as I see it is the old "Boy Who Cried Wolf" thing... if everything is secret, then nothing deserves to be secret. Bureaucracy exists to ensure its own continued existence. It has always been thus. The trick is to never give it so much power than its continued existence existentially threatens ours.

                          •  That's cool (0+ / 0-)

                            The problem with these so called "cave dwellers" in 2013  that has so many people and our gov't freaked out is it doesn't take too many of them to bring our country literally to it's knees.

                            9/11 ring a bell?

                            19 determined fuckheads changed the trajectory of this country in one afternoon.

                            In the middle ages, an entire army of these assholes couldn't have approached the devastation that they unleashed.

                            I don't even want to think about where we'd be as a country if they had successfully launched another like attack within a year or two of 9/11.

                            It doesn't take a nation state nowadays to cause damage on a massive scale.

                            Not when you can take an airliner and turn it into a weapon like that.

                            No, I'm not worried about two bit punks like the Boston Marathon Bombers. I don't even consider them real "terrorists".

                            They're just misguided douchebags.

                            I do worry about those "cave dwellers", because I don't think they are done with us.

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:21:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You go, then. Worry your heart out. (0+ / 0-)

                            But don't be stepping on my rights just to assuage your paranoia. 9-11. Yeah, I remember. Had one son call in to tell us he was still alive, don't try to get in touch, we didn't hear from him again for six months. Another was aboard the USS John Kennedy, sent post haste into New York Harbor to present a good show to anybody considering follow-up (or who needed military reassurance).

                            Good luck, I told both of them. Then went back to work, not the least bit concerned for MY safety from whoever it was (unknown at the time because the perfectly pristine Atta driver's license hadn't been "found" yet) who was attacking us. Hell, per the "official" timeline (Blue Ribbon Commission), I knew it was an attack at least an hour before Georgie Bush did, and that was supposedly before the FAA figured it out. Bullshit on that last, of course. Tale-spinning. A regular Security State national pastime. "Let's feed 'em pablum!"

                            If this gub'mint spy-monster was about foreign terrorist threats, it would have caught the Tsarnaevs before they bombed the marathon. Why, the Russians themselves tried very hard to warn us, and the FBI actually interviewed them and family members! They got to bomb the marathon anyway. Guess the NSA thinks the small handful of people killed by that was worth it for the mass media appeal of yet another YIKES!!!!! TERRIERIST!!!! BE AFRAID!!! value and all. Government secrets in this country have a tidy number of innocent scalps clipped to their belts, believe me.

                            Do let me know whenever the U.S. Congress actually declares war against somebody, m'kay? That's never happened in my lifetime, and I'm old enough now to draw Social Security. Then we can talk about massive internal lid-battening efforts, and the 'wisdom' of subcontracting our national security out to overpaid cubicle flunkies.

                          •  I agree with you... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau, Sylv

                            ...on more than you'd like to think.

                            I don't think any, and I mean any of our national security or military apparatus should be "subcontracted" out to freakshows like Blackwater, or Xe or whatever they call it now, or any of the other dozens or hundreds of like shops that have undoubtedly sprung up over the last decade.

                            If you are in the military, or the CIA, or the NSA, you should be "in" those organizations, not a flunky for hire as you point out.

                            I just don't want guys like Snowden running around making it even worse than it needs to be.

                            Did you really need to hear from him to be aware of the evil doings of our  surveillance state?  You seem to be plugged in to everything else, you even knew about 9/11 before President Pet Goat.

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 12:10:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Peace, jkay. (0+ / 0-)

                            If you could but alter your mindset a tad, you might appreciate what it is that this particular 'cubicle flunky' has gifted us with. The opportunity to change course, and to at least lay the foundations of a newer and better world. For my great-grandchildren soon to come, as my grandchildren are now grown.

                            What I thought was the hottest, most outrageous offense of the century against the endearingly innocent and naive citizens of Amerika, turned out not to be such a big deal in the next century as I thought it would be at the time. Not nearly as outrageous, in fact, as their attempt to murder my husband, that mistakenly murdered my brother. Who was a whole lot more innocent (relatively speaking) than we were. And that's not even the thousands of actually innocent civilians they allowed to die even though they could have remediated the damage early on, because we were at Not-War with the Soviet Union at the time.

                            Never fool yourself - things can always get worse. §;o)

                          •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            I guess what you're trying to tell me is that I have to go "all the way" down the rabbit hole, not 80, or 85 or 95% of the way down.

                            I guess the problem with that, though, is once you go all the way down, there does not seem to be a plausible way back.

                            I've been around a little.

                            I once worked in a top secret facility where even mentioning the word NSA to somebody without clearance could get you fired, or maybe worse.

                            One time, back in the eighties my friend inadvertently let slip to me that they were our "customer" and he immediately turned as white as a ghost.

                            But I did not tell anybody else, and that thought never occurred to me.

                            We built satellites for them. I knew that, but I didn't know who for, I had always assumed it was just the regular old CIA.

                            I also had a very good friend in college whose dad went down with the Thresher.

                            I'm not a naive country bumpkin.

                            I guess I've just never been willing to think the worst about our government, but I understand why people do, and in your case you have good reason.

                            Peace to you as well.

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 01:57:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah. The way back doesn't have to be (0+ / 0-)

                            "plausible." It just needs to be real.

                            We submitted our reports to hub's high school debate partner, who was then on the joint congressional subcommittee for energy and the environment. Mike Synar, the "Last Honest Man in D.C." as he was called upon his untimely death of cancer. At the same time we pulled in a family favor from the then-chair of the Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee. Get them to stop fucking shooting at us and our children and our families.

                            We broke no laws. In fact, we functioned at TMI as designated "reporting agents" for the subcontractor, as specified under provisions of the regulatory requirements in 10CFR.21 (copy of said regulations handed over when we took the job). As emergency HP coverage called in the very day of the accident because the regular sub-cons ran like hell when the damned thing started melting, we all knew what was going down. It was gross violation of more than just a handful of regs and firm laws, all of which REQUIRED reporting by any contractor or sub in a position to know what they were.

                            Our problems occurred when the subs discovered there would be no allowed reporting, that EVERYONE involved would be required to keep the goddamned "secrets." No matter how many innocent people it killed.

                            The civilian nuclear industry is not the US Navy, nor is it the NSA/CIA. They're goddamned public utilities, for goodness' sake. None of it was EVER a legitimate "state secret."

                            So we did it anyway. Nobody ever offered to buy us off so we wouldn't, guess they already knew we'd laugh. For all the good it did, which was none at all. Other than to keep this country from building any more of 'em, given we all knew what horrors they truly are. I guess that might be something in the final accounting.

                            If Amerika is willing to give up its freedom for not-security, then this country's Great Experiment is over. We lost. I still live here, and I am no more willing to surrender my rights than I've ever been. They STILL have to deal with me. And I've gotten nothing if not more adamant and a whole lot meaner in my old age. I have no patience for this shit. They should have counted on that all along, because they can't fucking kill me at this point. That was worked out quite undercover "secret" legally decades ago.

                          •  Your story is very important (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            And there are many others like yours that are out there.

                            I've wondered often about what is really happening as a result of the Gulf oil blowout from a few years back that everybody has put in the rear view mirror.

                            What horrors are really going on to that environment and the fish that we undoubtedly continue to eat because the gov't assures us that it's "safe".

                            Right.

                            All that crazy stuff going on now with fracking and that oil pipeline that everybody is yelling about with those fucking tar sands.

                            The corporations are just too damn big to control now, and the owners just don't give a damn about anything else other than money.

                            Whenever something doesn't make sense politically, it's always about the money.

                            See, our problem is that we are wired to try and fix things and make it better for society. They only care about how to get the next dollar in their pocket.

                            I think they know that it's inevitable that the ship is going to sink, and they are just going to enjoy the ride.

                            That's why they can't be bothered with issues like global warming.  They know it's true, but think there's nothing we can do about it anyway, so why bother trying to mitigate it.

                            Who knows, maybe in the end they're right.

                            Now, I am babbling!

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 03:42:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And bless you for it, jkay. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jkay

                            We are not so far apart in this world as we sometimes like to think. I wouldn't trade places with Snowden right now even if I could go back to being 29 years old by doing so. Hell, I wouldn't be a young twenty-something college student either (going into forever-debt for a worthless piece of parchment in a country with no jobs to offer), much less a child in this day and age. It's frightening to me as a child of the '50s that the children of the millennium have no future to embrace. They think it's all "normal."

                            Which I guess is scarier than anything else I've ever encountered. They don't even bother to include the U.S. Constitution in the text or appendices of public school textbooks these days. If you don't know your rights, you can't insist that they be respected. Most insidious, and exactly what's happening.

                            I might have a couple of decades left in this world. I'm not shy of speaking my mind, NSA be damned on that. Our primary excuse for the conundrums and serious dissonant nature of life as humans on planet earth, in monotheistic traditions (all of 'em), has to do with our ancestors' desire to know good and evil. In 2013 c.e., we do know good and evil. Our problem is that we won't curtail the latter, and aren't enthusiastic enough about the former. Karma, I guess.

                            They aren't right. Please don't allow yourself to be fooled. We know what's right, we just have to do it as if we meant it occasionally.

                          •  Thank you for your insights (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            I wouldn't have guessed I'd be saying that when I responded to your first comment!

                            This is not usually how these things work out in here!

                            I"m sure we'll be speaking again, take care.

                            "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

                            by jkay on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:25:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Per that "plausible" qualification... (0+ / 0-)

                            hub's father's family were the James clan. His great-grandmother was Stella James, youngest sister of a family of a bunch, ten or twelve (don't have it handy). Frank and Jesse among them.

                            Frank, who enjoyed a convenient federal pardon for his many crimes, lived to be a ripe old age in the Tishomingo/Talahina hill country. I got to sit through endless recountings from Stella's nephew Homer of the family legend - Frank always said he could ride out at sunset and be at Jesse's front door before sunrise. I had no reason to doubt it, Stella's son (Hub's grandpa) was Sheriff of Mead, after all. Appearances are all that count with the public when they're out for blood. So the appearance was constructed.

                            You get kinda soft on this stuff when you get older, young people have no real interest in it. My sis the PhD did our geneology a couple of years ago (duly registered), Dad's people go back to the Mayflower, Mom's shared a grandfather with George Washington. And I always figured we were Irish, those damned Cash's (three of whom were officers at Valley Forge). Thanks for the tunes, Johnny.

                            These days it's all about "proving" you're an American, and that's not as easy as it used to be per the Patriot Act. Especially if you happen to have been born abroad, as I was, of American parents. Dad was Planning Officer for NIS at Subic during the Korean "conflict." I have his Regis Neptunis right here on the wall, 1936, USS Indianapolis (look it up if you don't already know). I weary of the constant battle. Then I remember who I am, and get pissed off enough to fight 'em for the simple privilege of existing.

                          •  Or, put another way, (0+ / 0-)

                            Knees? I was never on my knees about 9-11, and I wasn't on my knees because of the Tsarnaev's pressure cookers. A sad number of others are, and will be for the rest of their lives because they lost their legs below the knees. The National Security apparatus - the entire thing - decided that was okay. You would not like the explanation for that.

                            This isn't about foreign terrorists or foreign terrorism. It's about We the People - who are in fact the ONLY ones who have the ultimate power to put this juggernaut on ITS knees (which is where it belongs). The monster is afraid of US. Because we can chain it. No foreigner can or ever could.

                            Truth.

          •  actually, for anyone trying to deal with banking (0+ / 0-)

            customer service, we should already know that we are "digitized".  today i had to remember addresses from decades ago to "prove" i was who i said i was.  it was offensive and laughable.

            one address was from the early 80s - and the bank had the records... and i had to "verify" them.

            just "spokeo" yourself - even when the information is wrong, it is out there describing the most intimate details of your life - AND or "$49.99", you, too, can know everything about everybody that has been entered into the public (and private) records, anywhere in the u.s. - even if the info is inaccurate.

            this is why the government running an algorythm to see if clusters of calls are originating in pakistan don't worry me.  if the government really wants to know everything about me, all they have to do is call my bank or run spokeo.

            the information gathering horse has been long gone from the barn for decades now and we are never going to put it back since the barn has been burned down.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 09:43:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If the government wants me (0+ / 0-)

              or my 'stuff' as evidence of some crime or investigation thereof, there are tried and true procedures to enable just that. We also have a Constitution - that would be the government charter and ultimate "Law of the Land" in case you're fuzzy on that - which states clearly my right to be secure in my person, papers and effects from unreasonable search and seizure. To qualify as reasonable they will need both probable cause and a legal warrant signed by a DOMESTIC judge of a DOMESTIC court which describes the particulars of the person(s), papers and/or effects they wish to seize.

              This 'capture' by the government's biggest spy outfit of financial records, GPS coordinates, all phone calls, all internet usage, all emails, and god only knows what else - without even the tiniest hint of probable cause - is an outrageous assault on the Constitution. They say we are to just trust them that they won't look at any of it unless there's a warrant (from the secret court in service to the secret law), because the NSA and all its expensive subcontracted rent-a-techs are so damned trustworthy. Hell, Snowden certainly blew that justification sky high, didn't he?

              It's just another version of war profiteering, which is why we see Carlyle there at the piggy feeding trough. I don't give a shit about Snowden, he's covering his own ass best he can. Good luck, he'll need it. I don't give a shit about China, which is a great big, modern country that has been doing its thing one way or another for thousands of years. I do give a shit about me and mine and our rights that have been so grotesquely violated under color of secret law by THIS government.

              So you'll have to excuse me from this ridiculous sleight of mind distraction. I know who the "bad guys" are in this per the assault on my rights under the laws of this land, no depth of shoot the messenger is going to change that.

              •  you are "secure in your person" as this (0+ / 0-)

                information does not contain content, rather it searches for patterns linked to overseas known problems.  so many here are outraged over the loss of privacy - my point is that we lost that long ago when the internet became easily searchable/hackable.

                as for warrants and seizure of your private information, those already are required.  simply looking at what calls are made to which numbers is not seizure of your private information since you are making those calls over a public broadcast medium.  the information is not secure by any means.  it is my point that we have already lost this security - what we do now is what guides us.

                many oppose any attempt to stifle the controls over the internet - that leaves sites like google, spokeo and more the freedom to aggregate that information.

                for the government to access that information, they need either a warrant or court order under fisa.

                what we SHOULD be looking at are the requirements to gain fisa searches - and if we understood that better, i think this entire brouhahaa would be greatly diminished.

                as for your "rights" - when you signed up for facebook, gmail, aol, etc., you signed those rights away to use the services they provide.

                the government isn't directly "spying" on you - they are requesting information with organizations with whom you have assigned your "rights".  that may be the problem that should be looked at...

                social security numbers for comcast? or for any number of issues - that should be monitored and controlled.  we give our privacy away every day, multiple times a day.  but we scream if the "government" looks into patterns.

                frankly, i'm a whole lot more worried about how the information will be used by the private sector than i am about the government.  yes, the government can "imprison" you - but the private sector can destroy you with credit ratings, credit checks, background checks, fb searches prior to job interviews and  through many many more intrusive methods.

                i'd feel a whole lot more secure in my person if the consumer protection board could clamp down on the massive "spying" done by private agencies and groups!

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:40:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  oh, and by "this" government, i hope you mean the (0+ / 0-)

                  government of the united states of america that has been in force prior to your birth - actually, for generations.

                  it is not "this" government that is doing the collecting - it has been done since "this" government was formed in 1776.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:41:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  ??? (0+ / 0-)

                  Perhaps you missed details about this in the past few days as officials and principals weighed in. Yes, content IS 'captured' and checked by the so-clever software for key words, immediate triggers, etc. To go into your 'dossier' in the mega-databank, the content is then compressed and encoded (like 'zipped'), leaving the lesser particulars of number, date, time, etc. as file tab 'label' so it can easily be found later if they want. Having already been checked by the software in real time or slight delay, this content may have been 'flagged' for human attention. The computer has red-flagged your conversation with Aunt Jenny's Iranian green card doctor about her hip replacement surgery.

                  It is at that point that human analysts decide the doctor's second cousin flying to Canada next week has set off enough red flags, and they go to the FISA court (they say), get the rubber stamp, then collect and 'unzip' all the content of all the material the computer has flagged as possibly being connected and go through it with a fine toothed spy-comb.

                  Think for just a moment about this. It could take days or weeks for Aunt Jenny's doctor's second cousin's activities to set off enough red flags to trip the silent alarm and then for analysists to write up the warrant, walk it down the hall for its FISA approval, and get started combing through all the collected content. They cannot listen in on a phone call you made last week unless they have a recording of the phone call you made last week. Your phone company does not record all calls made through its network, it records the 'pen register' details for internal data on traffic and such as well as for billing.

                  Think about how mind-blowingly HUGE the NSA's zetabyte storage bunker facility is so it can cache zipped content like this indefinitely. Neither Verizon nor ATT boast those kind of facilities, and I promise they have no interest in building such a thing.

                  The content of all your emails in and out, all your phone calls, all your banking transactions, all credit/debit card usage, all your GPS data, all your internet activities, etc., etc., etc., is in their 'dossier' in case they ever want or need to comb through it looking for whatever they want to look for. They SAY they won't comb through it without a warrant, but we have to trust them on that because the warrant would be secret and so would the probable cause (if any) used to obtain it from the secret court under the secret law.

                  You may give your privacy away without a second thought on a constant basis. I do not, and your personal willingness to share everything with the NSA does not count as some kind of 'permission' for the NSA to grab mine without a legal DOMESTIC warrant from a functioning DOMESTIC court upon DEMONSTRABLE probable cause and specifying exactly what it is they wish to seize of mine.

                  I think that's easy enough to understand if you try.

                  •  none of us have privacy any more. (0+ / 0-)

                    if you think you do, just "spokeo" your name and see what happens.

                    joieau, the amount of information that flows across the web daily, hourly is beyond the scope of having all content scoured.

                    what IS checked is origin and destination to see if volatile areas know to be in line with terrorist activity are triggered.

                    certain phrases and keywords are pulled.

                    your email to your auntie is not relevant.  it is noise - just noise.

                    the paranoia surrounding the algorithyms used shows a massive lack of understanding of what programs do.

                    Terabyte,Petabyte,Exabyte,Zettabyte,Yottabyte - do you have ANY idea the amount of information contained therein and how powerful a computer must be to extract data...

                    so, your particular email telling auntie about your new kitty is going to be the priority on this massive data extraction.

                    nope.

                    sorry.

                    the programs run are lookig for specific triggers, specific locations, specific connections - not whether you adopt a siamese or burmese male or female cat.

                    the paranoia being exhibited in all this is amazing... yet no one is screaming about google's dedicated ads - or facebook's targeted advertising.  that, too, comes from extracting personal data and it worries me a helluva lot more than what the government is doing.

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:24:18 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Some of us have (0+ / 0-)

                      managed to maintain quite a lot of privacy, and value it highly. Sure, we must of course presume that anything we type onto this website is monitored and/or recorded. That's been a given per the very nature of the site from Day-1. It's the rest of this tip of the iceburg that's outrageous, and there's just no telling (so far) what the damned thing looks like beneath the surface. We're gonna need some better adjectives...

                      Nor does the revelation of this iceberg's pointy tip make me scared to find out what the damned thing looks like beneath the surface. I am not afraid, even if it's Godzilla down there in the ice. You can't fight monsters you won't admit exist.

                      So again, your willingness to have no privacy does not count as permission for my privacy to be violated.

    •  And he's now babbling about (9+ / 0-)

      US hacking China sources:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

      When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:37:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  he is a threat to our security (6+ / 0-)

        And a jerk.
        I'm sure Opol  et Al will stop by to defend this moron and call anyone who does not praise him spilling his guts to China a fascist or Nazi or whatever the hell insult he likes to call fellow liberals.

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:41:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  His bio is revealing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KayCeSF, Christin, jan4insight

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

          "I like my girlish figure that attracts girls," he wrote, "and I like my lamer friends. That's the best biography you'll get out of me, coppers!"

           Photographs uploaded by friends for Snowden's 19th birthday show a young man pulling down his pants for his colleagues, putting a clothespin on his chest, and dancing. A blog entry from a company employee teased, "Who is he? What does he do? Does he really love himself as much as his shameless marketing would have you believe?"

           Snowden wrote on his profile that he liked online role-playing games (RPG). "I always wanted to write RPG campaigns with my spare time, but I'll get about three missions in and scrap the world for my next, better, powergamin' build."

          He joked that he "got bullied" into being an editor on the website by a gaggle of artists and "beautiful nubile young girls."

          When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

          by msmacgyver on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 03:33:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  and his own wikipedia page (0+ / 0-)

      I was willing to suspend judgement until i read that he fled to China. Fucking dumbass. He's no hero.

      All things in the sky are pure to those who have no telescopes. – Charles Fort

      by subtropolis on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:50:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is starting (6+ / 0-)

    to look like he feels like he has nothing to lose.

    He says he is concerned about his family back in the states,meanwhile he seems to want to lay bare everything classified that he has worked on over the last half decade.

    At some point, he moves from whistle-blowing to just a source for foreign governments to learn about our spying efforts.

    He could have come back to the US and stood trial and probably gotten off pretty easy with a lot of grandstanding and civil libertarians support...but that chance is slipping away.

  •  The ACLU is also endangering American (10+ / 0-)

    security.

    ACLU sues Obama administration over NSA surveillance
    June 11, 2013

    The American Civil Liberties Union announced Tuesday that it has filed a federal lawsuit against key members of President Obama’s national security team over the National Security Agency’s telephone surveillance, the first legal challenge to the newly disclosed intelligence gathering system.

    The suit, filed in U.S. District Court in New York, argues that the NSA’s ongoing, daily collection of virtually all Verizon telephone records is unconstitutional and should be stopped.

    "This dragnet program is surely one of the largest surveillance efforts ever launched by a democratic government against its own citizens," Jameel Jaffer, ACLU deputy legal director, said in a statement. "It is the equivalent of requiring every American to file a daily report with the government of every location they visited, every person they talked to on the phone, the time of each call, and the length of every conversation.”

    •  That's a non sequitur n/t (6+ / 0-)

      "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

      by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:48:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think it is (6+ / 0-)

        It follows directly.

        The ACLU lawsuit is a direct result of what Snowden leaked.

      •  If Snowden didn't report on what the NSA was (6+ / 0-)

        doing, would there have ever been any congressional hearings in the first place?

        It's one thing to decide that you want to play the hero and tell everybody that there's a super scary data mining program that could potentially target every U.S. citizen.

        OK, for the moment, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

        They'll be plenty of congressional hearings to sort that out in the coming months.

        The additional ACLU lawsuit will ensure there is accountability.

        BTW, how does knowledge that the NSA is keeping meta-data on private communications between American citizens endanger the country? Al Qaeda types have known since the Clinton years that their phones and internet connections are closely monitored.

        •  Why can't you stay on topic? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Christin

          The issue is that he's handed over state secrets to China, or is that too hard for you to comprehend, or something that you just refuse to accept?

          Go find another sandbox to play in.

          "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

          by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:31:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They are on topic. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            420 forever, Chi, fromcascadia, bobsc, kyril

            They don't buy your narrow premise and are following its underlying assumptions to the logical extent.  As a diarist, you should be ready to engage readers with viewpoints that are different from yours.  Not get pissy with them.  Or you can continue with your present tone.  Your choice, of course.

            •  Go reread that comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gramofsam1
              BTW, how does knowledge that the NSA is keeping meta-data on private communications between American citizens endanger the country? Al Qaeda types have known since the Clinton years that their phones and internet
              I did not assert that US citizens knowledge of  "meta data database" endangers the country.

              He is conflating that with what I wrote about Snowdens disclosures to China, which I said threaten national security.

              He is clearly here to push an agenda, not debate this on it's merits.

              He's saying that everything this guy is doing is great.

              If you don't believe me, ask him.

              He won't answer you, just continue to evade the question.

              "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

              by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:45:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  please (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jkay, Sylv

              his present tone?
              Meanwhile, In every nsa and Obama are evil rant and or diary, the insults, ad homs and screeching name calling were out of control.
              Made by people who share your viewpoint.
              Effing idiots and Nazis ring s bell?
              It got none hundred shit eating recs.
              I'm sure you were horrified over the tone then too.

              We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

              by Christin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:46:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  What's wrong, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            Do you really only want people commenting here who believe the same way you do?

            Dum Spiro Spero - While I Breathe, I Hope (SC's state motto)

            by SCVeteran on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:32:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What state secrets did he hand over? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, Joieau

            The only 'state secret" is telling the Hong Kong people that the US government has been hacking "Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city" (which are not exactly military targets). The only way this will make the US less secure is by getting more people pissed off at it.

            Edward Snowden: US government has been hacking Hong Kong and China for years

            Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

            One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.

            Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

            It has been known the US has been spying on the entire world for decades. This includes spying for corporate interests.
            ECHELON
            Intelligence monitoring of citizens, and their communications, in the area covered by the AUSCANNZUKUS security agreement has caused concern. British journalist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager asserted in the 1990s that the United States was exploiting ECHELON traffic for industrial espionage, rather than military and diplomatic purposes.[10] Examples alleged by the journalists include the gear-less wind turbine technology designed by the German firm Enercon[5][11] and the speech technology developed by the Belgian firm Lernout & Hauspie.[12] An article in the US newspaper Baltimore Sun reported in 1995 that European aerospace company Airbus lost a $6 billion contract with Saudi Arabia in 1994 after the US National Security Agency reported that Airbus officials had been bribing Saudi officials to secure the contract.
            How about this from 2003?
            Beware of Total Information Awareness

            John Poindexter, head of the Pentagon’s Office of Information Awareness, is developing a vast surveillance database to track terror suspects. The Total Information Awareness (TIA) system will, according to Poindexter, “break down the stovepipes” that separate commercial and government databases, allowing OIA access to citizens’ credit card purchases, travel itineraries, telephone calling records, email, medical histories and financial information. It would give government the power to generate a comprehensive data profile on any U.S. citizen.

            Adm. Poindexter assures us that TIA will be designed to respect constitutional guarantees of privacy and shield law-abiding citizens from the Pentagon’s all-seeing eye. But if the history of military surveillance of civilians is any indication, accepting that assurance amounts to the triumph of hope over experience.

            Opponents of new government surveillance measures such as TIA or Operation TIPS, the Justice Department’s aborted plan to utilize citizen informants, often invoke the specter of the East German secret police and communist Cuba’s block watch system. But we don’t have to look to totalitarian states for cautionary tales. There’s a long and troubling history of military surveillance in this country. That history suggests that we should loathe allowing the Pentagon access to our personal information.

            •  well you don't know the ramifications (0+ / 0-)

              of him telling them exactly what was hacked and when.  And obviously neither does he.  You think it's only relevant if they are military?  That's pretty naive thinking.

              Even Greenwald and WaPO stated he gave them information that even they thought was too sensitive to publish.  

              Snowden may have the technical knowledge about what is available but he doesn't have the content knowledge to know how it fits into a big picture.  And that is ripe for the exploitation of a misguided idealist.  

              •  I don't know what Snowden managed to get (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joieau

                information on. But, if any of it was extremely damaging to US security I can tell you that the the NSA is completely fucked. There are tens of thousands of low level employees just like him and I can guarantee you that many are working undercover for foreign interests.

                So far the only thing that has been revealed is that the US government is not only spying on and recording communications between ordinary citizens worldwide but also on American citizens.

                Even Greenwald and WaPO stated he gave them information that even they thought was too sensitive to publish.
                Greenwald stated that much of it wasn't germane or didn't add to the main story.

                Maybe if the US spent more money and attention on their grave domestic problems instead of constantly expanding their empire around the world Americans would be less paranoid.

                Puts the lie to "Home of the brave, land of the free"

    •  Richard Clarke was a traitor for (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chi, bobsc, Fire bad tree pretty, kyril

      publishing his book that revealed that, yes, the U.S. does commit acts of cyber-warfare against, among other nations, China.

      These accusations of 'treason' against Snowden were so pathetically predictable, when all the standard character assassination and smears proved ineffective.. I'm not even sure one can commit 'treason' if a state of war doesn't exist.

      Flame away.

      •  Don't think he's a traitor, but (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        journeyman, arizonablue, myboo

        can you at least admit that this sanctimonious crap about doing this because he loves his country is b.s. No one that "loves" his country would be speaking to the Chinese about his country's spying techniques?

        •  Your post suffers from some unclear pronoun (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, kyril

          antecedents, so I'm going to make some assumptions.

          By 'he,' I assume you are referring to Snowden and not to Richard Clarke. As to whether Snowden 'loves' his country, I'll simply repeat that 18th-Century Tory Samuel Johnson's observation that 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.'

          IOW, Snowden's motives and circumstances don't really interest me very much.

          By 'this,' I assume you are referrring to Snowden allegedly speaking to the Chinese state authorities and not referring to Richard Clarke's publication of his book on Cyber-terrorism. I would prefer to wait until an indictment or bill of particulars is brought and not rely exclusively on second- and third-hand reports of what went down. Chalk my preference for due process up to the quaint and obsolete. If, OTOH, by 'this' you are referring to Snowden revealing illegal domestic spying on U.S. citizens and permanent residents by their own government, why then I could easily see Snowden doing 'this' for love of country.

          I reserve the terms 'treason' and 'traitor' for documentable offenses, like lying a nation into war (probably more accurate to call that 'fraud' rather than 'treason') or deliberately outing the name of a covert operative to punish or intimidate a truth teller.

          •  Sorry my pronoun/antecedent reference was (0+ / 0-)

            unclear for you. In this particular post, I wasn't aware we were talking about more than one guy who's talking to the Chinese while he also claims to love his country. My bad.

            •  Well, I may have been a bit too persnickety (0+ / 0-)

              myself -- old habits die hard (former English teacher here :)

              All I was trying to suggest is that Snowden has done nothing more from all i can discern than Richard Clarke did, hence my skepticism at all the charges of treason being hurled around so blithely and bitterly by the keyboard warrior brigade.

              When anyone professes to "love" his or her country, I tend to let such synecdoche go in one ear and out the other, whether said profession come from left or from right.

  •  He is now is TRAITOR territory (7+ / 0-)

    Talking to the Chinese and showing them our files means that he could be tried for treason.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:48:51 PM PDT

  •  He did great public service (13+ / 0-)

    by disclosing Prism.

    Now he is disclosing legitimate actions by the US, arguably in response to similar efforts by China.

    The latter will undermine the former.

  •  I thought he was a spy now? (7+ / 0-)

    Or is he just a loudmouth who hates our country and the president.

    So many variations on the same theme of attack the messenger that I lose track.

    /snark

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:05:28 PM PDT

    •  They can't attack the disclosures (3+ / 0-)

      because that would mean attacking their leaders. So they have to attack the messenger, even if it means lying through their teeth.
      You don't get the job he had with 'mediocre IT skills'. You have to be good at it.

      (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

      by PJEvans on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:12:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  By "mediocre"... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I just meant to convey that they were probably not "elite".

        If he was a real "gun", he probably would have been making more than $122k, which I'm not saying is chicken feed by any means, it's a real nice years pay.

        "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

        by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:27:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  no longer a "whistle blower" defense (13+ / 0-)

    By disclosing to Chinese and Hong Kong authorities inside-CIA secrets of means and methods (or at least those he claims to know about - whether true or not), he really is crossing a line.

    And these disclosures have nothing to do with "whistleblowing" or the whistleblower defense.  He's toast.

    He's moving into "life in prison" territory now if he's ever seized and brought home to trial.

  •  It may come as a shock (10+ / 0-)

    but we're not necessarily the good guys. I know a lot of people would like to think so, land of the free and all that, but in reality  we're a rapacious corporate state.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:18:04 PM PDT

  •  Guys, please (4+ / 0-)

    As if he weren't getting charged with espionage to begin with. That's what Obama has been doing to whistleblowers, right? Charge them with espionage? You give way too much credit to the most transparent presidency the world has ever seen.

    “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

    by 420 forever on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:24:19 PM PDT

  •  Look at this crap: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv

    "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

    by zenox on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:26:07 PM PDT

  •  It doesn't matter. Whatever happens with (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dance you monster, 420 forever

    Snowden happens.  We as citizens know enough don't we?  Isn't that the point?

    "America is the Terror State. The Global War OF Terror is a diabolical instrument of Worldwide conquest."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:54:14 PM PDT

  •  Are we really that naive (6+ / 0-)

    ... that we think only China and North Korea have cyber warfare departments/units, hacking into other countries?

    Is he really telling the Chinese anything they didn't already know?

    Seizing on this small piece of information to beat him over the head is just adding to the ridiculous noises coming from those that describe all of Snowden's actions as treasonous.

    •  No, I don't think anybody is that stupid, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jkay, Sylv

      But do you think it's cool for Snowden to be doing this?

    •  well yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jan4insight
      Is he really telling the Chinese anything they didn't already know?
      He told them specific targets and when.  You think that isn't giving them quite a bit of information?  You think b/c he said they weren't "military" that means they weren't doing something important?  

      And he told them the means.  

      Those things are quite a bit more specific that the Chinese didn't already know.

      He admitted that he took top secret information.  And we know that Greenwald and WaPO said there was information that they even thought was too sensitive to publish.

      He doesn't really know what the ramifications are of releasing the information because he doesn't know how it all fits.  He was not that kind of analyst.

    •  He at least *thinks* he's telling the Chinese some (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sylv

      info that they may not have already known, which could be treason.  If someone discloses classified info to a foreign country, whether the foreign country already knew the info or not is irrelevant as to whether the disclosure is an act of treason.

  •  I had to leave DK a few days ago... (9+ / 0-)

    because I couldn't take this "Snowden is a Hero" b.s. I knew something was up when he fled to Hong Kong.  If he had stayed in the States and faced the music--and if he wasn't a Ron Paul supporter--I would have a different opinion of the guy.

    It's funny how quiet things are around here now. No more "Snowden for Prez".

    •  This isn't the place if you're.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happycozy, arizonablue, MissTrial, Sylv

      ...looking for magnanimity and self deprecation.

      People around here never admit they might have been "misguided".

      "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

      by jkay on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 03:23:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why should he stay in the US? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      varii, salamanderanagram

      To get the Bradley Manning treatment from the Obama admin? Sometimes I wonder if these comments are serious or just some form of trolling.

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 03:59:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because he believes in what he's doing n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  What total bullshit. (0+ / 0-)

          If I could have left the country back when I blew the whistle, I might have taken that avenue. If I had done that instead of simply dropping off the grid for awhile, my only brother might still be alive.

          There is absolutely NOTHING in the annals of how this nation treats whistleblowers and/or uncomfortable truth-tellers to inspire any confidence at all in anyone who would consider doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Nothing.

          One's chances of a long and productive life may well lay elsewhere. I don't blame anyone for deciding so. Instead, I'll just thank Snowden for blowing the lid off this atrocity so we can get busy doing what needs desperately to be done about it.

  •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joieau
    You can't have it both ways.

    If you think that spying on other sovereign nations (and their citizens) is sometimes, unfortunately necessary, then you have to conclude that in those instances WE HAVE TO KEEP SHIT SECRET!

    I don't think that, so I don't have to conclude that.

    Spying on people only makes them mad when they find out, as witness pretty much every major country in the world currently being pissed off at the US.

    We're the world's creepy stalker ex-boyfriend.

  •  bookmarked for crazy comments (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fromcascadia, MissTrial

    I want to be able to find this easily later.

  •  I thought I was the only one (0+ / 0-)

    So bizarre - Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore in full agreement on something.

    It comes down to what you think about our intelligence services:
    A) They are patriotic Americans doing their best every day to protect us.
    B) They are fascists with on some nefarious yet to be revealed plot to oppress us.
    C) They are political cronies eager to carry out the evil whims of their puppetmaster in the white house.

    For once, most conservatives and liberals agree strongly on something: that the answer isn't A.

    I'm not buying it. I hope Snowden spends the rest of his days in jail.

  •  Now we know why he chose Hong Kong. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MissTrial, jan4insight, godlessmath, Sylv

    For a guy who says he doesn't want to make it about himself, he sure is doing a good job of making it about himself.

    Sorry, folks. I was siding with him...until now.

    He just showed his hand. Now there is no way he will be extradited. He just sold his soul to the Chinese. I was wondering why he chose Hong Kong, since Ecuador helped out Julian Assange and is closer. Iceland as another good choice. Now, we wonder no more.

    Something tells me he is looking for a payday.

    Just another network admin with a god complex.

  •  Reading this dairy and the various comments, (0+ / 0-)

    I thought I had just jumped over to Red State for a minute.  

    And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

    by MrJersey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:20:59 PM PDT

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