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television set abandoned in the desert
The wasteland
This is (shudder) from last Sunday, so hardly counts as news anymore. But it's still important, and it adds yet more evidence to the theory that the press infatuation with Snowden as a personality and, in most cases, open hostility towards him (as opposed to following the vast the surprisingly banal way the government has detached itself from pesky 4th Amendment concerns when collecting information about its citizens) is based on a Beltway culture that is so enmeshed with elected government that they identify more as agents of that government then they do as a separate entity from it. Enmeshed, in fact, to the point where government leaks that do not go through the proper Beltway channels for leaks are met with open hostility, and to the point where information that the government may be doing something egregiously wrong—a scoop, in any other context—is met with far less interest and debate than are the pondered motives of the person who dared bring it up. Or the reporters that brought it up. Or the papers that those reporters worked for.

It might be that embarrassed forces within the government have been pushing opposition research on the leaker and reporters, but they hardly needed to. From the outset, the Beltway nose was attracted towards the tabloid version of events. And from the outset, it had been pretty much decided among the pundit class that for someone to have reported this thing was even fishier than the extremely fishy thing being reported on.

Why? Just because the tabloid version is easier to produce, and digest? We know only the bare minimum of the government programs involved, but it's much easier to have an opinion on the leaker's girlfriend or on whether someone is a legitimate reporter or a mere interloper in punditry's typically more puffy, stylized game, so there's no doubt that if you have hours of airtime to fill it's much simpler on the noggin to ponder the personalities involved than to, say, wonder whether or not there might be an identified apparatus of government has contravened all of those long-cherished, supposedly sacred Constitutional protections using only the most implausible of fig leafs. But it's not just because it's easier to speculate on the leakers. As you can see below the fold, there's something worse involved.

On Meet the Press yesterday, shortly after host host David Gregory stunned many by suggesting that The Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald should face prosecution, a roundtable of pundits discussed the unfolding Edward Snowden story. Mike Murphy, one of the Meet the Press pundits, mocked Snowden’s attempt to seek asylum, calling him a “so-called whistleblower,” and charging that “it’s never been easier in human history to be a whistleblower” through official means. [...]

But Murphy himself has a stake in this debate that arguably ought to have been disclosed. Though Murphy was introduced only as a “Republican strategist,” he is also the founding partner of Navigators Global, a lobbying firm that represents one of the NSA’s largest contractors. Disclosures show that Navigators Global represents Computer Sciences Corp. (CSC) on issues before Congress. For at least a decade, CSC has won major contracts from the National Security Agency (NSA). Murphy’s firm has lobbied on behalf of CSC for bills that would expand the NSA’s reach, including the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act or CISPA, which passed the House of Representatives earlier this year. As the Center for Democracy and Technology noted, the “legislation is being billed as an expansion of a collaboration between the National Security Agency (NSA) and major ISPs dubbed the Defense Industrial Base Pilot.”

That's not laziness. That's journalistic crookedness. When you go out and fetch insights on a government leaker from a political "strategist" that just happens to make his very living from the cash cow being leaked, while hiding that rather salient fact from the audience, that isn't sloppiness or a minor oops moment in the ol' NBC news studios: That's being crooked. Flat out. That's inviting the wolf into the studio to give his opinion on whether or not the sheep need to be worried. Honestly, I don't even know how you get there.

To quote every mechanic ever: There's your problem. It's not laziness, or sloppiness, or an inherent need of very shallow people to reduce every story to being shallow enough for even them to understand. It's that the voices opining on what goes on in government and which people, programs, and claims from that government ought to be trusted are members of the very goddamn institutions they are punditizing on. And it's so very, very ingrained into the very personality of the "press," the Beltway press, the specific subset of the Beltway press that interviews the big names and appears on television to tell you what you do or do not need to know about those names that it does not even rate mentioning.

How is that not remarkable? How is "Oh, we have got a fellow here commenting on a whistleblower who has an explicit and very large career stake in this whistleblower being dismissed as a crackpot" not something that comes up? And when it does come up, how is it that it still seems a perfectly fine idea?

It seems just another part of the impressive new (well, old) devotion to crookedness on the part of the new (well, old) American upper class. On Wall Street, the only concern over cheating a so-and-so or a million different so-and-sos is not whether the thing is illegal, but whether the profits available by breaking the law will offset any punishment for doing so. (Tip: It almost always does, and if it doesn't you can probably have the law changed to accommodate it.) Within the halls of Congress (and the press, but I practically repeat myself), the question of whether or not to lie your crooked ass off about a certain conspiracy theory, or statistic, or program is dependent entirely on whether or not you think the audience will approve of the lie. The government is hoarding ammunition so that gun owners can't get any? There are "suspicions" about whether or not baby Barack Obama was spirited into the country by Kenyan circus folk? Sure, what the hell, whatever brings the checks in.

In the current pundit class, the group that's supposed to be keeping a critical eye on all the other groups, there's not even that much introspection. Conflict of interest is no longer a thing. It couldn't be, because if it was there would be no Sunday shows at all. If you pushed every person off of television who made money either lobbying the government or collecting checks from one of the two political parties, if you pushed every person off of television who had, as their prime source of income, the compensated duty to publicly manipulate facts in order to financially benefit the groups that pay them, you would turn the studios of the network and cable channels into a wasteland.

This isn't a remarkable thing? This isn't, say, something worth noting? Probably not, because the people who get paid for noting things don't find it noteworthy, and so we sail merrily along. We know almost nothing else about government programs that collect information in wide swaths from millions of citizens, but we do know that Edward Snowden oughtn't to have done that, because a man whose company makes bucketfuls of money from those efforts says so.

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Comment Preferences

  •  What exactly are you talking about... (4+ / 0-)

    When you say this?

    the vast the surprisingly banal way the government has detached itself from pesky 4th Amendment concerns when collecting information about its citizens

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:06:22 PM PDT

    •  Really? (5+ / 0-)
      What exactly are you talking about...
      Your question sounds improbably naive. What's your agenda?

      Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

      by deben on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:40:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And you're questioning my motives because? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin, WinSmith

        Going right after the poster rather then answer the question?

        What's your agenda?

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:48:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Somehow, I don't think you want lay claim (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rick Aucoin, Notreadytobenice

          to ignorance. But, it's up to you.

          Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

          by deben on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:52:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No really, I am ignorant of your agenda. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WinSmith

            You'll have to enlighten everyone yourself.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:55:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I asked to discover whether you are (9+ / 0-)

              naive on the issue or belligerent in your question to the diarist. Is it a matter of truly not knowing what Hunter is referring to or does a chip show up on your shoulder when a diarist mentions this issue of our government's spying on us? You can easily clear this up.

              Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

              by deben on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:06:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you're some sort of motive police? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Christin, WinSmith

                Making sure all the questions people ask stand up to your scrutiny? I'm pretty sure Hunter can handle it without your help, and you're not adding anything to the conversation anyway... so....

                Although it is pretty ironic in a diary asking for focus on the story rather then the participants... apparently it's not even allowed to ask which story the diarist thinks needs to be focused on. A reasonable request given all the misinformation and conflating flying around.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:15:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Maybe Hunter has better things to do (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KJG52, 3goldens, Matt Z, CroneWit

                  than deal with a critic biting his ankle about "which story" he's talking about.

                  Should I conclude that you are not naive and that you are happy with "whichever stories" our various agencies of government currently peddle about how much we're spied on?

                  Or are your views more complex than my characterization? The floor is open for elaboration.

                  Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

                  by deben on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:27:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It was a perfectly reasonable (6+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KJG52, 3goldens, YucatanMan, Siri, Matt Z, CroneWit

                  question.

                  The tone of your query was harsh, and suggested either that you did not know what Hunter was talking about (scarcely credible), or that you do know and are trying to be clever in your opposition.

                  Or maybe a third or fourth option which we do not know because now you are refusing to answer.

                  Either way, you had the option to simply answer the question that was posed, yet chose instead to become difficult to the point of being belligerent.

                  Dunno why you did that, but it was all avoidable and you chose not to avoid it.

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:34:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sure.. if you're innocent you have nothing to hide (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Christin, koNko, WinSmith

                    right? Just answer the interrogations of the local constabulary and everything will be fine. maybe.

                    It's amazing how the roles reverse themselves as soon as someone feels threatened. snark

                    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                    by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:41:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The commenter wishes to make the argument, (10+ / 0-)

                    which the commenter does below, that "this is all legal, nothing to see here."

                    You hit the nail on the head.  The question was a set up for "this is all legal, nothing to see here."

                    The indignation of the commenter is just ridiculous at this point.  Everyone would be well advised simply to avoid responding further to the commenter, perhaps, so as to avoid in the diversionary tactics being attempted.

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:00:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Excellent suggestion to simply avoid responding (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      twigg, YucatanMan, Nada Lemming, CroneWit

                      further to this person. It is refreshing to see someone here be the grownup and recognize when another is simply trying to get attention, negative though it be, by agitating for a fight, simply for the fight itself rather than any meaningful ideas or discourse.

                      "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

                      by helpImdrowning on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:58:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Unfortunately, as can be seen from the comment (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      twigg, YucatanMan, Nada Lemming, adrianrf

                      thread below, several folks took the bait and gave this person all the attention he/she wanted. What a waste of time and energy. When will people learn? There are some people who are "attention" vampires. They crave attention like a mythical vampire craves blood and will do or say anything to get it. Seriously, just look below at how much this person's attention need was fed. There are a lot of enablers here.

                      "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

                      by helpImdrowning on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:13:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  (sigh) this whole "hero/traitor" thingie has (7+ / 0-)

                gotten ridiculous.

              •  deben, 'naive or belligerent in your question' (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                adrianrf, deben

                This guy just likes to jump into NSA-related threads, ask an incomprehensible, belligerently-phrased question, and see who he can get to join him in thread-jacking.  I know your discussion with him is over, but you can remember his name and try not to play along in the future.

                •  Asking for evidence of illegal activity? (0+ / 0-)

                  How is this question "incomprehensible" or "belligerently-phrased"?  

                  All I see, sadly again, is that when it comes to the NSA/Snowden issue, some Daily Kos users are as fanatical and intense about driving out any potential heretic from the public sphere as swiftly and as loudly (without actual debate) as possible.

                  There is still no actual evidence of illegality in Snowden's documents.

                  You can debate whether what the government is doing should be illegal, and that is a point that "i understand" makes a number of times.  

                  But according to law, and the 1979 decision that he cited  and which I hadn't heard of until now, the government has a Constitutional right to collect meta-data.

                  You can scream and shout down those of us on Daily Kos who ask questions about whether this is the BIGGEST STORY EVAR or whether this simply reminds us that we need to make sure we have appropriate checks and balances (aka a functioning court review of data and a system that is insured not to allow Hoover-like abuses).

                  But all I see are reasonable questions from "i understand" and a few thought police trolling these threads and saying they don't like the "tone" of a question.  Awful.

            •  this whole "traitor/hero" thing has gotten to the (8+ / 0-)

              point of self-parody.

              Now we are reduced to asking each other what their "agenda" is so we know whether to like or pillory them.

              What a silly distraction.

    •  The patriot act, warrantless wiretapping, metadata (37+ / 0-)

      storage, the storage of recorded communications, the fact that people at the NSA were listening in when soldiers had phone sex with their loved ones, and sent around the timestamps of the recorded messages. Stop and frisk in new York city... the list really does go on and on and on.

      The Patriot Act guts the bill of rights. That we haven't had a conversation about repealing it, and the fact that Obama supported its reauthorization in 2011 is one of the things that rankles those of us who care about our civil rights.

      The diarist can correct me, but I'm pretty sure that's what Hunter's talking about.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:42:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He'll need to do that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        koNko, WinSmith

        Because this list doesn't fit the bill.

        I want to see the Patriot Act repealed, and as far as I can see Stop and Frisk is unconstitutional (I was glad to see New York start to curtail the practice). So if that's what he's talking about, got it.

        The rest of your list needs work. I haven't seen any warrantless wiretapping of citizens, and metadata isn't covered by the 4th amendment as ruled by the SCOTUS in 1979.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:47:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Metadata didn't exist in 1979. (19+ / 0-)

          It refers to a very modern concept regarding information that can be collected by computer servers.

          Did they have a crystal ball?

          They're storing phone calls. That's wiretapping. Just because they say they're not listening to any of the phonecalls doesn't mean that it's not warrantless wiretapping.

          An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

          by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:19:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin, WinSmith

            You're claiming phone records didn't exist in 1979? I think the collection at the time were called "pen registers".

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:23:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Phone records are *not* metadata. (12+ / 0-)

              Metadata includes so much more. Browser fingerprints, ips, passwords and logins...

              This isn't like them being able to have access to phone records.

              This is like the feds having a copy of the keys to your house.

              An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

              by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:25:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think the metaphor works. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Christin, WinSmith

                I know what metadata is, it's data about the communication. It is not a copy of the keys to your house (metaphorically or otherwise).

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:31:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think you do. (14+ / 0-)

                  Metadata is not just "data about communication."

                  That's like saying that a car is a very complicated shoe.

                  Using the car analogy. Metadata used to just be what your license plate was, phone records.

                  Now, Metadata is your license pate, your vin number, the serial number on your engine parts, a camera inside to determine your passengers, a device to record what you listen to on the radio, the brand of headlights you use, a recording of what your tire tread looks like, and a lowjack that records where you go.

                  They can tell everything you do from the metadata they're gathering.

                  This is not just phone records. This is not just data about communication. This is a full fingerprint of your life online.

                  An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                  by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:41:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sounds scary. (0+ / 0-)

                    But I guess that's the point right?

                    This is a full fingerprint of your life online.
                    So it's not the keys to your house anymore, it's now full fingerprints of your life online?

                    I do think you're getting closer though. But, bottom line for me, this isn't your data and it's no surprise that big data is big...

                    In fact, I see a lot of great things coming from big data. Especially from the Consumer Protection Bureau.

                    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                    by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:52:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'd be a lot less worried if that were likely. (9+ / 0-)

                      What happened to Aaron Swarz suggests that we can't expect benevolent despotism any time soon.

                      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                      by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:56:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If you're worried about aggressive prosecution (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        WinSmith

                        Then the focus should be on getting rid of the power of corporations and so ALEC and our private prison industry. Those are much more inclined to produce (and have produced in my opinion) aggressive prosecutions and harsh sentencing that has broken millions of families here.

                        The fact there is a profit motive for locking people up is crazy, dangerous, and causing immeasurable harm to the Nation.

                        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:12:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I agree, but Data Collection is part of the proble (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Siri, Indiana Bob

                          m and allows more aggressive prosecution.

                          We need to work on all fronts.

                          An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                          by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:45:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't agree (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WinSmith

                            The Government uses data collection for all kinds of purposes we all applaud.

                            The problem is, perhaps, insufficient oversight. But folks have jumped right to data bad because... tyranny!

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:53:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Riiight, we applaud them because if we have (3+ / 0-)

                            nothing to hide, we have nothing to fear.

                            I don't see the government doing anything laudable with data collection.

                            You mentioned stuff like consumer protection. That's not happening. It might happen some day, but it isn't happening now.

                            There is no good coming from this.

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:33:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, we applaud them because they do good (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WinSmith

                            Like, the Center for Disease Control. Or the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:11:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I can't tell if that was a serious response, or (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            shaharazade, Indiana Bob

                            whether you're trolling me at this point.

                            I really can't. But I'll assume good faith.

                            Neither the CDC or the BLS is gathering my metadata for use in their research.

                            The idea that the CDC and the BLS could find any of this information useful is laughable.

                            You're really grasping at straws now. That point you just made, the BLS and the CDC, has absolutely nothing to do with the debate on data collection, nothing at all.

                            Why are you trying to conflate the two?

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:28:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're kidding right? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WinSmith

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:39:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  NONE of the data they collect is metadata (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            shaharazade, Indiana Bob

                            from internet users.

                            Are you seriously trying to make the argument that my IP address has some value to the CDC or BLS?

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:49:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have no idea what you're talking about. (0+ / 0-)

                            So, we can leave it at that.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:52:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see. (0+ / 0-)

                            I suggest you head over to EFF and do some reading:

                            https://www.eff.org/...

                            They do a good job of breaking this all down.

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:26:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, I know what EFF is talking about. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WinSmith

                            I just have no idea what you're talking about.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:45:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm talking about what the EFF is talking about. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            shaharazade

                            And I'm stating pretty clearly that the BLS and the CDC aren't involved in the same kind of personal, private data collection that the NSA is involved in.

                            There's personally identifiable information, the kind that the census collects, and the NSA is collecting that kind of data.

                            Browser fingerprints, IP Addresses, the whole list I posted earlier.

                            You argued that there was nothing wrong with the NSA collecting this kind of information because of the CDC and the BLS.

                            Wait, did you think we had a problem with letting the CDC do basic research?

                            Is that what you thought this was about?

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:54:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Metadata is Metadata OG (0+ / 0-)

                            I can't speak for "i understand" who is doing a heroic job by himself trying to counter the groupthink going on around here, but the point seems to be that we accept metadata on users all the time.

                            I'd add the website Zillow, which is happy to publish the public records on the house that I own, including the exact price that I paid for it, its dimensions, amount of bathrooms, and how much I spent on the remodeling.

                            Should I be upset?

                            Is this my "fingerprint"?

                            Or does the government have a right to know basic facts about where I live?

                            The government records our birth dates, our death certificates, our car registration, our driver's licenses, and where we are registered to vote.

                            This information is not kept "private", nor does a police officer need a warrant to access any of this.

                            Every time you join Google, Gmail, Vine, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and the like, you click a long user agreement that you probably don't read that says you give them the right to store your data.

                            From what I can gather, "i understand" makes the valid point that if you don't like your metadata about your online activities accessed, take it up with the corporations who you already gave permission to do so.

                            That seems to be a valid argument.  Nor does it excuse the government.  It just brings overdue nuance to an argument currently treated on Daily Kos with the same hero/villain mentality that we see from clowns like David Gregory directed against Snowden.

                          •  None of what you mentioned there is metadata. (0+ / 0-)
                            Every time you join Google, Gmail, Vine, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and the like, you click a long user agreement that you probably don't read that says you give them the right to store your data.
                            I actually do read the agreements, and I don't generally use services that tell me they're going to share my data with other people.

                            The issue isn't your home address, it's your system's MAC address.

                            The issue isn't your date of birth, it's the date you bought what on amazon.

                            The issue isn't your information on zillow, the issue is your browser fingerprint.

                            Look at what happened to Aaron Swarz.

                            That can happen to anyone that a government agent decides to target.

                            Because of very poorly written computer crime laws, every single person on the internet is technically a federal felon. They can come after us at will, just like they did to Aaron Swarz.

                            And with the law the way it is, they can store and read our text messages and e-mails. That's like the Stasi opening and reading your mail.

                            Please, don't condescend to me about "groupthink." Let's leave the snide sniping to the side, because this is an important conversation.

                            Now I'm going to go get some caffeine before I keep talking because I'm tired and it's Monday, and me being an angry dick to people on the internet isn't conducive to a substantive conversation. I should be awake enough to continue by the time you respond.

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 09:49:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  What do you mean "this isn't your data?" (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Siri, OllieGarkey, shaharazade, adrianrf

                      This isn't about what data is supposedly relinquished "voluntarily," it's about WHO is able to use it and the parameters used to determine whether that aggregated and stored data can be retroactively examined.

                      Just because the lens through which you're evaluating these surveillance activities won't allow you to see the potential for misuse, doesn't mean others should share your nonchalant attitude about it.

                      I can't help but wonder if you'd feel differently should you find yourself mistakenly at the receiving end of some of this "special attention."




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                      ~ Jerry Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:21:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I mean what I said.. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        WinSmith

                        It's not your data. It's business records, owned by the corporation, about you. The SCOTUS has ruled this is not covered under the 4th amendment.

                        I can't help but wonder if you'd feel differently should you find yourself mistakenly at the receiving end of some of this "special attention."
                        Why would you wonder this?

                        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:30:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I see (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          shaharazade, adrianrf

                          That you've chosen to ignore the countless discussions about this that have occurred here, many in which I've seen you participate, IIRC, in order to continue to push this meme.

                          And yet you feign shock at the questioning of your agenda upthread.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                          ~ Jerry Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:52:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I haven't ignored anything. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WinSmith

                            I will always stick to the facts though. Reality is just much more consistent.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:54:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're not talking about reality. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            shaharazade

                            And yes, you've ignored pretty much everything.

                            We're not talking about information that a corporation collects. We're talking about private data that belongs to us, but is either clouded or otherwise online.

                            That data doesn't belong to a corporation. Privacy policies make this pretty clear.

                            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:25:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

                            You think privacy policies determine ownership?

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 05:42:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  But it is not limited to that. (0+ / 0-)

                          You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what information is being acquired, analyzed stored and read along with the meta data you narrowly define and I suggest you read the relevant documents that have recently been disclosed and also what was known preceding this case to get a more clear picture.

                          If the telephone information was limited to just caller IDs and time, and the email/internet transactions to just the equivalent, we would not be having this discussion now at all.

                          Seriously, you are missing a lot based on your comments.

                          400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

                          by koNko on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:36:20 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't think so (0+ / 0-)

                            I have a very clear notion of the difference between content and metadata.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 05:43:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That may be (0+ / 0-)

                            But you seem to have no concept of the facts of the situatiom we are discussing here and apparently believe the data harvested is strictly limited to your own definition of metadata.

                            In other words, you have your own "facts" and disbelieve anything to the contrary.

                            Willful ignorance is not a strong argument here, but you are welcome to use it if you like.

                            400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

                            by koNko on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:09:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes and No (0+ / 0-)

            The ruling now cited to justify collecting meta data was based on the concept that a letter address would be visible to any onlooker and therefore there is no reasonable expectation that information itself would be private.

            Reasonable enough.

            But now we have something entirely different (even spooks were actually going to limit themselves to just sender/recipient/date information, which they don't) since :

            (a) the means to obtain the data is wholesale culling of all transactions flowing through a system node;
            (b) the content is filtered not just for address information but obviously subject line and other content;
            (c) the information is retained for years for further investigation/use.

            And there is not even a wink or nod to privacy since agents can "read" communications before deciding if they need a warrant.

            But secret courts have ruled this is legal, so why should journalists question it?

            Someone said it is OK.

            400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

            by koNko on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:29:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I can't speak for Hunter but here's my take (17+ / 0-)

          As far as the metadata decision, SCOTUS ruled in 1979 on the constitutionality of the police getting the metadata phone records of a person that was under criminal investigation. They got those records without a warrant in the course of having that suspect under surveillance, used them in the trial and the man appealed his conviction based on the collection without a warrant. SCOTUS did rule that it was within the bounds of the constitution for the police to get those records without a warrant for their investigation but made clear that a warrant was needed for content.

          Fast forward to the present day. The government is collecting the metadata on every citizen in the country by having the phone companies turn over all of their records as a matter of course. It's not just on someone under criminal investigation, it's on everyone. Every, single phone call made by everyone, thus treating us all like we're suspects in some kind of investigation and subject to surveillance. Essentially, if you use a regular phone company, their position is that you've voluntarily turned over the information to them so you cannot claim privacy for the matadata. However, if you'd like to claim your privacy in who you communicate with and you use an encrypted service like SeeCrypt, they use that as a reason to snatch the encrypted information and try to crack it. I don't understand why some people don't get why a lot of us are alarmed by the government treating every single person in this country like they're under surveillance.

          As far as the content of the phone calls. That's all stored in their giant database farm system. Should any suspicion every arise, they just go and look through your whole life since they handily keep it on file. Now that is supposed to be done with a warrant. A warrant issued by a secret court that has no one representing the public and has turned down something like 4 requests for warrants out of thousands in the last several years. That's supposed to be the process. There are claims that the procedure is in place but that they have the capability to listen anyway. We're just supposed to trust that they don't. There's no question that they actually have the content.

          If you're actually communicating with friends or relatives that live in another country, your conversations are fair game. They claim that they throw away anything they find to be from a US citizen but they have to listen first to determine that. There is also a long list of reasons they might keep those conversations. Again, try to communicate via an encrypted service and that's one of their reasons to keep the content and try to crack the code.

          I don't see how anyone looking at this doesn't see a serious erosion of our civil rights.

          "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

          by Siri on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:25:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I get the spin... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin, WinSmith
            thus treating us all like we're suspects in some kind of investigation and subject to surveillance
            I don't agree with it though. The fact is big data is big... and the other fact is that it's not your data so you have no constitutional dog in that hunt. It's the company's data, and if you don't like it what I suggest is targeting them to stop storing it. They can't share what they don't have.
            As far as the content of the phone calls. That's all stored in their giant database farm system.
            I've seen allegations of this, but I haven't seen any evidence. Can you point something definitive out to me?

            On the foreign communications, I agree with you and would like to see the Patriot Act repealed. If that's what Hunter is referencing, fine, it would help to say so I think.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:30:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then open your eyes (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Siri
              I've seen allegations of this, but I haven't seen any evidence. Can you point something definitive out to me?
              You can start with this diary I posted a couple of weeks ago including the various items I cite and link to.

              Then you could read through the entirety of the Guardian's archive of published stories and official documents (including once secret memos). For your convenience:

              Guardian - Full coverage of NSA files
              Current - New NSA leaks show how US is bugging its European allies

              I sincerely think you lack a basic understanding of the scope and depth of this issue you are debating and it would be better for you to spend a few hours researching before going much further.


              NSA Bluffdale, Utah Data Center

              400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

              by koNko on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 03:10:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't lack a basic understanding (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WinSmith

                I've read these documents and they support what I've been saying.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 05:59:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  They don't at all. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Siri

                  And it's genuinely funny you make such a claim given the content I posted in that diary, but I'm not surprised you say so given the cadence of your repetitive comments here.

                  But we have come to an understanding; I can now understand your viewpoint hermetically sealed and no amount of fact to the contrary will permeate the membrane, so I'll let it be.

                  Interesting discussion.

                  400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

                  by koNko on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:14:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  That's only a small piece of what metadata is. (11+ / 0-)

            We're talking about browser fingerprints, logins and passwords, ip information, MAC addresses, and a whole lot more.

            If this were just "OllieGarkey sent a Kosmail to Siri on Sunday, June 30th, 2013 at 7:33 PM" that would be one thing.

            But it's "OllieGarkey whose name is XXXXX and whose account has the password XXXXXXXX sent a message to Siri saying "Hey, what's up." from his personal computer with the MAC address XXX.XXX.XXXXX using Netscape Navigator 5.57 with the following 37 modules and fonts installed..."

            THAT'S Metadata. And they can use that browser fingerprint to find out what you're doing, no matter your cryptography software.

            I was going to write a huge diary about using proxies, and encryption, and a whole lot of other easy to use stuff, but with what they're doing, it doesn't matter a damn.

            There's absolutely nothing you can do to protect yourself from this anymore, and it's BECAUSE of the Metadata.

            Again, if it were just phone records, that would be one thing.

            It's not just phone records.

            It's like them having the keys to your house and a lowjack installed in your shoes. Wherever you go online, whatever you do, they know.

            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

            by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:38:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Again, it's not your data. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WinSmith

              Yes, big data is big.

              But you're the one sending it out to companies that are storing it. I'd like to see a movement towards anonymous internet infrastructure where principles and intermediaries aren't storing this information.

              We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

              by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:43:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This has been repeated ENDLESSLY here (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Siri, lotlizard, shaharazade, Icicle68

                A couple of problems with your "anonymous infrastructure:"

                How would we verify they aren't collecting data ANYWAY? Some kind of oversight that will surely be implemented right away?

                The anonymous internet techniques that exist NOW -- the very act or using encryption-- is considered by the government to be  a "red flag" in and of itself, if I understand things correctly.

                So we're fucked either way: don't take measures to insure privacy and have it exposed, or take measures to insure privacy and be "flagged as suspicious," prompting them to collect the encrypted data for future decryption.




                Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                ~ Jerry Garcia

                by DeadHead on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:38:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can you point me to definitive information (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WinSmith

                  That details what you just said? That the NSA is targeting people (US Citizens) who use encryption?

                  We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                  by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:47:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Your operative words no doubt being (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Siri, shaharazade, Indiana Bob

                    "definitive" and "US citizens," but I'll assume this is a new development for you anyway:

                    http://www.informationweek.com/...
                    http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/...




                    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                    ~ Jerry Garcia

                    by DeadHead on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:47:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Here you go (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Indiana Bob, mythatsme, adrianrf

                    http://www.informationweek.com/...

                    Bad news for fans of anonymizing Tor networks, PGP and other encryption services: If you're attempting to avoid the National Security Agency's digital dragnet, you may be making yourself a target, as well as legally allowing the agency to retain your communications indefinitely -- and even use them to test the latest code-breaking tools.

                    When encryption is encountered, however, the gloves can come off, with analysts being allowed to retain "communications that are enciphered or reasonably believed to contain secret meaning" for any period of time. The guidelines allow this retention to occur not just for recovering the source communications but for any cryptanalysis use, suggesting that the NSA could retain encrypted communications to use as target practice for future code-breaking techniques.

                    The exact citation is from Section 5, Domestic Communications (page 5), sub-section 3a of this document:
                    In the context of a cryptanalytic effort , maintenance of technical databases requires retention of all communications that are enciphered or reasonably believed to contain secret meaning, and sufficient duration may consist of any period of time during which the encrypted material is subject to, or of use in, cryptanalysis.
                    One thing I'd like explained, is how they would even determine something might have "secret meaning" if they have to destroy it immediately if they determine it's a domestic communication. Please note, that's not something encrypted, just something they think might have a "secret meaning". You can't make the determination that something might have a secret meaning if you don't actually see it. They must be reviewed in some way before the decision is made to destroy or retain.

                    "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

                    by Siri on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:51:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  The data is about me (4+ / 0-)

                and it's data I've shared with the phone company, not the government. The government should only have access to it if they have someone under some kind of investigation. Since the SCOTUS ruled they don't need a warrant to get it, so be it. If they have a number they want to run a query on, they should go after that record period. Compelling companies to turn over everyone's information on an ongoing basis via secret court order should be out of bounds. That's too much power for any government. I don't want them to have it.

                If we could fight this and make sure they don't have the power to do this, there won't be the need for anonymous internet infrastructure. But we can't really fight it right now. It's the FISA court that has given them the authority to compel companies to turn all of it over yet we're not even allowed to see their legal rationale since the decisions are secret. We can't fight legal decisions we can't see.

                There is work being done on a darknet, I'm sure they'll infiltrate that as soon as possible if they're not on it from the get go. They're keeping encrypted communications because they've deemed them suspicious. What makes you think anyone can put together anything without them wanting to grab everything off that too? We're in a position where we either turn our information over to big data so they can turn in over to the government or, if we try to maintain some level of privacy by going around the system, we will be under even higher surveillance.

                We shouldn't be the ones jumping through hoops to maintain our privacy. The time to fight this is now. We need 21st century laws on how our data is stored and how it is shared.

                "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

                by Siri on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:06:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  a minor correction . . . (15+ / 0-)
          I haven't seen any warrantless wiretapping of citizens
          Then you are either too young, or you have a faulty memory.  The NSA did indeed listen to and record citizens phone calls, and also intercepted and read their snail mail, within the US, on a massive scale, without warrants, and lied to their Congressional oversight about it---and admitted to all this under sworn testimony.

          It happened in the 1960's and early 1970's, and it is all detailed in Volume 5 of the US Senate Church Committee Report, titled "The National Security Agency and Fourth Amendment Rights", available online.

          So you see, when some of us express the fear that the NSA is doing once again what it has already done before, that is not merely the addled product of paranoid tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.  It is because some of us were around back in 1975 and have already seen it happen.

          And, given the "secret interpretations" of the Patriot Act held by a court who does not allow us to see those interpretations or know what they are (but which those Congressional members who HAVE seen them have said the public would shit a brick if they saw it), and also given that the NSA director "told the least untruthful thing" to Congress, some of us are a tad skeptical that the NSA is NOT simply doing again what it has already done before.

          You can argue if you like that the NSA is not currently illegally wiretapping without warrants.  But you cannot argue that NSA would NEVER illegally wiretap without warrants.  They already have.  (shrug)

           

          •  I'll claim too young on that one... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin

            An issue from the 1960s couldn't be what Hunter was referencing. Perhaps a fear of returning to that bygone age...

            You can argue if you like that the NSA is not currently illegally wiretapping without warrants.  But you cannot argue that NSA would NEVER illegally wiretap without warrants.  They already have.
            I certainly would not argue such a thing. I would, in fact, argue that we need strong checks and balances in place with both judicial and congressional oversight.

            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:36:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  but alas therein lies the problem . . . (15+ / 0-)
              I would, in fact, argue that we need strong checks and balances in place with both judicial and congressional oversight.
              We had oversight in the 1970's too----and the NSA simply flat-out lied to them.

              That's the problem with having secret oversight on a secret program--the oversight only knows that the NSA decides to tell it, and if the NSA lies out its ass (like it did before), there's no way for the oversight to know.

              PS--that age might not be so bygone. During the 1980's Reagan years, a large number of political groups---environmental, anti-war, etc---reported that they had been infiltrated and spied on, including mail and phone taps, despite the fact that the COINTELPRO (another term that you're too young to know but should take the time to learn about) was supposed to have ended. And I myself was a small victim of that--I was corresponding with some people in the Soviet space program at the time, and got a visit from the FBI about it, and their questions made it clear that they had read the contents of all my correspondence.

              PS---a large portion of the "debate" about NSA spying is a divide based on age. Those of us who were around back in the 60's, 70's and 80's remember very vividly those days--when the US government was setting up Black Panther members to be killed in police raids, when AIM members were arrested on trumped charges with fabricated evidence, when the CIA and the Mafia were working together to assassinate foreign leaders the US didn't like, when the Army was using the New York Subway system for biological warfare tests and the CIA was testing mind-control drugs on unsuspecting civilians. Those things HAPPENED--they are not the result of paranoid fears or tinfoil-hat conspiracy kookery, they were official policies carried out by the US Government. Sadly, though, virtually none of the younger generations have ever heard of those things--and I suspect many simply won't believe that they really happened.  Sad. Forgetting the lessons of history is never a good idea.

              •  thank you Lenny. (5+ / 0-)

                for your awesome, respectful responses in this debate.
                and for the education you just gave me.

                We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:55:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I try not to be annoyed at the younger generation (12+ / 0-)

                  for not knowing our own history. (Though I did lose my temper recently at some young doofus here who blithely declared that the liberal/progressive movements of the 60's "didn't accomplish anything".)

                  Of course, I am no longer young enough to know everything.  ;)

                  History matters. Because history has a funny way of repeating itself.

                  •  Speaking of that history, (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Christin, 3goldens, Matt Z, Siri

                    any good books on the NSA in the 60's and 70's, and what they did?

                    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                    by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:02:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  yeah...but you both debated this (6+ / 0-)

                    exactly like it should be.

                    i'm no fan of Snowden's - and i get hr'd for saying it.
                    i bring it up when someone says I owe him my life or something.  i don't. so forget that.

                    but the patriot act is the most vile steaming piece of nightmarish slime to ever ooze out of washington.
                    and it's horrific that it's still with us , being used to prosecute people who commit simple acts of protest, and incarcerating them for 20 years. and obama has not pardoned them.
                    i am horrified beyond belief. it's heart breaking.
                    people in jail with convicted murderers - for civil acts of minor disobedience that hurt NO one. not one person.

                    We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                    by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:13:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Snowden is, in my view, an irrelevant distraction (6+ / 0-)

                      The only thing that matters, in my view, is whether or not the NSA is or is not up to its old tricks again--and how, if they are, anyone would even be able to find out about it.

                      The last time they got caught doing stuff they weren't supposed to be doing, they were simply hoovering up every bit of information that they had the physical capability of grabbing, legal or not. My assumption is that they have maintained the CAPABILITY to still do that. Whether one thinks they actually ARE doing it, I suppose depends on whether one believes them or not.  Given that they already lied about the exact same thing in the past, color me skeptical about their unwillingness to lie to everyone now.

                      •  I agree with this perspective completely (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Christin

                        I just wish it would be pursued with as much clarity. As I read it, FISA was invented as a result of these reports. If it's broken now, it should be examined closely.

                        From what I've read, the NSA doesn't do any of the wiretapping. That has to go through the FISA court and on to the FBI for data collection. Perhaps that is not enough, perhaps someone is breaking the rules (and therefore the law). I think it's important that appropriate checks and balances are in place to make sure that's not happening.

                        And it's a good question to ask, how do we know it's working properly?

                        I still don't see why it needs to be wrapped in this "Government is shredding the Constitution" rhetoric when there isn't evidence of that.

                        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:40:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  that is correct---FISA was a specific response to (5+ / 0-)

                          the last time the NSA got caught doing things it wasn't supposed to be doing.

                          Alas, the FISA system, even before it was weakened and re-written by the Patriot Act, suffers from the same flaw that appeared in the 70's---the oversight only knows as much as FISA (or the FBI or the CIA or whoever) decides to tell it.  If a secret agency is running an illegal program and decides not to tell their oversight about it, there's simply no way for them to ever find out about it, unless some brave soul pipes up and spills the beans.

                          Much of the problem, of course, could be ended quickly and easily by simply ending the useless "war on terror". It is that whole toxic atmosphere of "national security" and "permanent warfare" that leads the security forces to treat everyone as a potential enemy, and to entice them into doing illegal things in the name of "national security".

                          The NSA's job is spying on foreign governments.  It has no business being in the role of "terrorist-hunters". It is not a law enforcement agency. That's the FBI's job, and the FBI at least has more effective and open oversight than NSA ever will.

                          •  Great argument, deserves debate (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Christin

                            And has been debated, and unfortunately, the act has been renewed.

                            I think what these documents show though is that one agency is not empowered through the whole program. They don't appear to have the autonomy of the 60s where there was apparently virtually no oversight.

                            Snowden, to my review, hasn't uncovered any illegal activity. So from that assessment perspective you'd have to conclude "working as intended" right?

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:01:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no, you are mistaken (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lotlizard, Siri, Christin, adrianrf
                            They don't appear to have the autonomy of the 60s where there was apparently virtually no oversight.
                            They did have oversight, through Congress and the Intelligence Committees.

                            They simply lied to that oversight.

                            Snowden, to my review, hasn't uncovered any illegal activity. So from that assessment perspective you'd have to conclude "working as intended" right?
                            No.  The current system has exactly the same flaws as the last one did----nothing prevents NSA from simply lying to its oversight and doing whatever it wants without anyone knowing.

                            As for whether the NSA is doing anything illegal, we simply don't know. NSA says it's not looking at or storing content. Snowden says they are.  We simply have no way of knowing if they are or not.

                            Again, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.  We already know, without a doubt, that the LAST time the NSA did this, it sucked up, read, and stored every scrap of content that it had the physical capability to access, both telecommunications and snail mail, whether it was legal or not. Given the NSA's resources (including the new storage facilities they are rapidly building) I think we can assume they are still maintaining the CAPABILITY to to that today. Whether or not one thinks they ARE doing that, depends pretty solely on whether or not one trusts them enough to believe their denials. Me, I've seen them lie before, so I'd not be surprised in the slightest to learn that they are capturing, reading, and storing everything they have the capacity to.

                          •  I don't agree on this point. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Christin

                            At least, according to what I've seen, it would require the NSA, the FBI, and the corporations to collude. As we saw years ago when Quest fought the requests presuming corporations will all be on their side and keep silent is not a sure bet.

                            I'd not be surprised in the slightest to learn that they are capturing, reading, and storing everything they have the capacity to.
                            Perhaps you wouldn't be surprised, but you also haven't learned that yet right? But I see a lot of people, and infer Hunter is one of them, who seem to have already concluded the abuse is there even without evidence.

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:25:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the FBI and NSA did collude (0+ / 0-)

                            The NSA was turning over all the information  it had obtained through its illegal phone taps and mail intercepts to the FBI, which then utilized all that information in its own COINTELPRO program to disrupt dissident groups by targeting its leadership for false criminal charges, personal feuds, break-ins and burglaries, and other tactics. So that has already happened.

                            As for the corporations, yes, we know some of them fought the NSA's "requests", but the vast majority seem not to have.  We already know the telecoms acquiesced in allowing the NSA to install taps at their facilities (indeed we know that the telecoms were granted legal immunity from any liability for it). And we know that the telecoms themselves did not tell anyone anywhere that any of that was going on--we learned about it only because of a few whistlebloweres who spoke up on their own.

                            So depending on the corporations to either stop it or expose it, simply has not happened.

                      •  Re: Snowden...distraction (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lotlizard, Nada Lemming, adrianrf

                        Lenny Flank wrote:

                        Snowden is, in my view, an irrelevant distraction...The only thing that matters, in my view, is whether or not the NSA is or is not up to its old tricks again--and how, if they are, anyone would even be able to find out about it.
                        Um, Lenny, that is exactly what Snowden has been trying to tell us--they ARE up to their old tricks, just with more sophisticated and effective methods.  We suspected as much and Snowden has helped confirm our suspicions. He is indeed a classic whistle-blower.

                        Now, if you meant that the media's obsession with Mr. Snowden's personal saga is a distraction, that I will buy.

                •  Seconded. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Christin, Matt Z, Siri

                  Lenny rocks, and he understands the history of this better than I do.

                  An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                  by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:01:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Evidence I've seen doesn't support that contention (0+ / 0-)

                But I do get that as an important issue.

                Hunter's comment seems more conclusive that 4th amendment rights have already been abrogated and while I saw actual evidence of that under Bush, I have yet to see that under President Obama.

                I do believe we need strong (and stronger) oversight. The idea of these briefings that consist of people prohibited from acting on what they are told needs to be fixed.

                And let me thank you also Lenny, I appreciate the conversation and added context.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:01:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                  •  That 4th amendment rights are being abrogated. (0+ / 0-)

                    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                    by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:50:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ah. well, as I noted, we simply can't know. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lotlizard, Siri

                      If they were, NSA certainly isn't gonna tell us. Nor could we find out by ourselves, since everything is hidden in secrecy.

                      But the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  And in the past, the NSA broke the law intentionally and willfully, and lied to everyone about it. So it is not irrational or unreasonable to wonder whether they are doing so again.

                      •  Snowden leaked lots of documents... (0+ / 0-)

                        Presumably they were his best evidence of wrongdoing. If there is no illegal activity revealed there, then why are so many folks acting like it is definitive.

                        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:03:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  it should be noted, though, that the revisions (5+ / 0-)

                        to the Patriot Act performed the cute lawyerly trick of making things that were once illegal, legal now, as held by the secret interpretations that we aren't allowed to know about. So the whole idea of "legal" depends on the secret opinions of a secret court whose decisions we are not allowed to see (and who of course are themselves utterly completely dependent solely upon what the NSA decides to tell them).

                        So the NSA's protestations that it's all "legal" are . .  uh . . . self-serving at best.

                        •  Besides, the FISA judges are all appointed by (5+ / 0-)

                          … by one man alone: Chief Justice Roberts.

                          A post currently on the front page by shanikka explains at length why placing any kind of political trust in Roberts is a fool's game.

                          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ☮ ♥ ☺

                          by lotlizard on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:48:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It's not just the NSA's protestations. (0+ / 0-)

                          And absolutely the law "caught up" to Bush who was abusing his authority, with plenty of evidence to show it.

                          Again though, I see the fog that is being built around this (and the fog that is there naturally). It is worth every investigation to ensure it's operating legally. And change the law where needed. But I can't be convinced with hand waving and notions that they did this once 40 years ago so they must be doing it now. I can't get on the bandwagon of "let's all just go ahead and accuse the Administration of treason" without evidence, because that's what it's called when you betray your oath to uphold and protect the Constitution.

                          Those who forget history are bound to repeat it, but those who can't move on are bound to relive it forever.

                          We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                          by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:33:55 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  well, a big factor in this "debate" is that lots (0+ / 0-)

                            of hyper-partisan Democrats are perfectly willing to accept that Dubya or Reagan may have been doing these sorts of things, but the pure-as-snow Democrats would NEVER, EVER do any such illegal thing because we're the Good Guys, and it's a personal insult to even hint that Obama would ever do such a thing.

                            Again, though, previous history is instructive----of the seven administrations through which the NSA spying, illegal wiretaps, FBI COINTELPRO and all the other shenanigans were happening, four of them were Democrats.

                          •  All the same, I'll just stick to the evidence. (0+ / 0-)

                            We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                            by i understand on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 05:46:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  here's a great link that explains... (9+ / 0-)

        ..."Pen Registers" and "Trap and Trace Devices", the broad microscope the NSA has your life under, and the immense, if not unlimited power it wields over our private communications, since the Patriot Act became law, and as amended/re-authorized.

        You are right. It truly guts the Bill of Rights in general, and the 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendments specifically. If the Constitution falls on one point, it falls on all points.

        Interesting read. And this site also grants express permission to re-print any part of or all of its contents in total.

        https://ssd.eff.org/...

        "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:45:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  seem pretty straightward to me (13+ / 0-)

      the government has detached itself form the 4th amendment concerns with the NSA 'Total Awareness' program. Read the 4th amendment maybe that might make the concerns clearer.

      banal -  commonplace, trivial, hackneyed

      banal -lacking force or originality; trite; commonplace
       from Old French: relating to compulsory feudal service, hence common to all, commonplace

      Once ideologies’ claim to total validity is taken literally they become the nuclei of logical systems in which, as in the systems of paranoiacs, everything follows comprehensibly and even compulsorily once the first premise is accepted. The insanity of such systems lies not only in their first premise but in the very logicality with which they are constructed. The curious logicality of all isms, their simpleminded trust in the salvation value of stubborn devotion without regard for specific, varying factors, already harbors the first germs of totalitarian contempt for reality and factuality.
      —Hannah Arendt,
      •  Can't be that right? (0+ / 0-)

        The program you're referencing (probably not called that for years since it was defunded back in, what, 2003?) is about the collection of metadata. Metadata is not protected by the 4th amendment as decided by SCOTUS in 1979.

        So that can't be it.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:22:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Aw, isn't the clever (10+ / 0-)

          your feigning ignorance you understand damn well what Hunter is referring to.  Your just trying to shot it down with one of the more lame apologist talking points. Yes that can be right.  

          •  stop it. (0+ / 0-)

            you are resorting to your usual style.
            you are throwing out ad homs at the user.
            left and right.
            and he/she is not doing that to you.
            at all. he/she is debating the points.
            you are attacking him/her personally.
            so stop it.
            your attacks are tedious.

            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

            by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:53:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What ad homs? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lotlizard, dclawyer06, Dallasdoc

              I replied in good faith to his question and gave him a respectful sincere answer. I did not question his motives and yet he was just using his comment /question to shoot down Hunter's point. No left and right ad homs. You stop it your constant concern, deflection and myopia are getting tedious. I understand you care about your issues but please connect the dots and don't harass people who are concerned about the Bill of Rights and in this case the 4th amendment. I'm not attacking i understand. I'm not attacking Obama and I'm not attacking you. His answer was not attacking me but he was not just debating it was twisty snark if not why pretend he didn't know what Hunter was saying. Disagree honestly.    

              •  I still don't know what Hunter was saying. (0+ / 0-)

                I haven't gotten a response.

                We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

                by i understand on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:33:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  She's pulling the same crap w/me... (4+ / 0-)

                it's her SOP.
                Ignore.

                •  i've reported you for false charges of racism. (0+ / 0-)

                  We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                  by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:42:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I reported you last week... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    shaharazade, Nada Lemming

                    You're still here. In spite of the fact you've been hit with more hr's in the last 2 weeks than I have in the last 6 years.

                    But you get a free pass.
                    I'll let you know what I hear.

                    •   i have asked you ten times to post (0+ / 0-)

                      my racist remarks.
                      this is 11.
                      i refuse to let this go.
                      post it right now.

                      Btw christin, (0+ / 0-)
                      the last time i discussed race with you was hot on the heels of you writing on of the most racist things I've ever read on this site. I said so at the time.

                      I objected then and I would again.
                      I thought we were supposed to let sh* go and look forward around here?

                      shake well

                      by dclawyer06 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:55:03 PM EDT

                      [ Parent | Reply to This |  Recommend   Hide ]

                      We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                      by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:57:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't bark orders at me (0+ / 0-)

                        Let them admins work it out.

                        I'm curious to see how the treatment we receive compares.
                        So thanks!

                        •  don't you dare. ever post false charges of (0+ / 0-)

                          racism against me again.
                          and refuse to back up your despicable lies.
                          until i ask you to do it 15 times .
                          and then claim i am barking orders at you.
                          and writing more false accusations that i am a racist.
                          you don't get to do this to people.
                          because we don't agree on policy.  ever.
                          you don't get to call me a racist. ever dclawyer06.
                          and then claim i defend racist remarks. ever.  
                          EVER. you are a liar. and you don't get to do that.
                          and you don't call to call my beliefs and my passion and commitment to racial equality, a "noisesome opportunistic approach" ever.
                          you don't get to call me that in front of my bi-racial family that comes to this site to read.
                          and get away with your filth.
                          ever.
                          you don't get to lie about people in the most horrific way.
                          because you don't like me. or you don't like what i believe it. or you don't like that i'm not on your side is debates and we both get heated.

                          what you have done. is the most despicable thing I've ever seen anyone do to anyone on this site.
                          this has gone beyond debate and HR's and arguing  on who is right and who is wrong.
                          you don't get to do something this despicable.
                          and get a pass.
                          this  goes way beyond tiresome bullshit HR's.
                          way beyond it.  

                          I guess we know what you think about black people. (0+ / 0-)

                          We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                          by Christin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:45:17 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  quit hijacking every (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            NonnyO, koNko, dclawyer06, 4kedtongue

                            thread in diary's that you don't like. You need to chill like you told my husband to last night. You know people are animals too maybe you should try respecting them even if they do not think like you do.  

                          •  How about you not doing the same shit? (5+ / 0-)

                            The same shit you accuse dclawyer of doing, you run around and do to others, me being one of them.

                            - You run around and copy/paste comments to shame the upraters/Hide-raters.

                            - You reproduce comments out of context.

                            - You use hyperbolic, exaggerated, charged descriptions of people to paint a negative caricature of them in the eyes of observers.

                            - You use the same or similar types of phrasing to insult groups of people here that would be HRed into oblivion had they been directed at Obama supporters.

                            - You whine about the insensitivity of others you disagree with, but you give zero fucks whether you do the same shit back at them.

                            - You have no problem calling others HYPOCRITES while being blissfully unaware of your own similar behavior.

                            As long as YOU feel you're right, you think you can act with impunity.

                            And you're spreading this outrage across multiple diaries, APPALLED at the mere thought of somebody saying something about you that you don't like? That's rich.

                             




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                            ~ Jerry Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:50:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  false charges of racism will be dealt with (0+ / 0-)

                            your support for those false charges is appalling and par for the coursein addition you were told to stay away from me by admins and you failed to do so

                            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                            by Christin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:59:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do not ascribe to me a position (0+ / 0-)

                            I have not taken. I know you want to make comment tips equivalent to an official statement of position, so have have at it.

                            I support dclawyer01 because YOU, Christin, are the fucking bully here, projecting onto others YOUR behavior. Plain and simple.

                            And I have never EVER received a message from administration on ANYTHING. Not once. Ever.

                            You just completely fabricated a warning to me that was never made. You have no evidence whatsoever to back up this false claim. You must be getting desperate if you have to start concocting warnings sent to ME that never occurred.

                            You have injected yourself into discussions you were not a part of to disparage me multiple times. I've replied to you only a few times at most, to point out your hypocrisy or push back on your behavior towards me.

                            You've engaged in tag-teaming with GoGoGoEverton to smear me, and have tagged my comments with your cute #DNRDH tag to label me a troll not worthy of response.

                            Who's doing the lying now Christin?

                            I expected no different. Carry on. My comments speak for themselves, as do yours. Admin knows the truth as to whether or not I've ever received a warning, and that's all that counts.

                            Good luck, Christin.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                            ~ Jerry Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 02:18:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And she accuses others of being the bullies... (4+ / 0-)

                            SMH

                          •  It's simply HORRIFIC, I tell you! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead

                            Just give her 'hearts and hugs!' like this:

                            {{{{{{Christin}}}}}}

                            You'll receive a

                            #DNRDCL06

                            and you'll never have to deal with her again.

                            ;-)

                          •  ha ha. Here's the list: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue

                            #DNR4T
                            #DNRDCL06
                            #DNRDH

                            A very exclusive club, indeed. ;)




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                            ~ Jerry Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 02:21:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah. She just lied about me, now (0+ / 0-)

                            I've never once received a message from admin about ANYTHING, much less a warning to stay away from her.

                            I've been in less than ten, closer to five, direct exchanges with her since I've been on the site.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                            ~ Jerry Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 02:28:54 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh, I've posted this elsewhere but here... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nada Lemming, DeadHead, shaharazade

                        This is why I remembered your noisome approach to race. It's opportunistic and situational.
                        The fucking nerve of you.

                        This exchange tells me all I need to know about you: Christin 101

    •  It's a legitimate question! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Christin

      I don't understand either, principally because the English doesn't make sense!
      "...the vast the surprisingly banal way..."  What vast?  Vast what?  Maybes we all ought to read a little more carefully before we assume criticism??

    •  What an ironic statement (4+ / 0-)
      What exactly are you talking about...
      is coming from someone with a name of "i understand".

      “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

      by gjohnsit on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:47:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you were a major public figure making (27+ / 0-)

    millions or tens of millions a year based on your "credible" and "wholesome" image as "Trusted News anchor"...

    would you necessarily want to cross extremely powerful people who had both access to the media and all of your phone calls, texts, tweets, and emails for the last four or five years?

    Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

    by JesseCW on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:07:39 PM PDT

    •  Not just that. What about Joy Reid? (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      quill, KJG52, 3goldens, Dallasdoc, Nada Lemming

      Joy Reid filled in for Alex Wagner last week on MSNBC.  Normally I really like her.  But she was an apologist for the Admin and attacking Snowden all week (until she and MSNBC just gave up and went live on the Zimmerman trial).  I find it very hard to believe she represents defense contractors.  In her case I suspect it was loyalty to Obama and a desire to minimize damage to him.  Ari Melber and others made the case for focusing on the leaks, but she wasted appearances by a guy from Wikileaks  and another knowledgeable guy by going on and on about Snowden.

      I'm not at all calling false equivalence here.  Just making the point that people can have all kinds of agendas, and every time one of the people we count on follows the Beltway script and/or feels they have to protect Obama it means just that many fewer real critics of what is going on.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:14:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It used to be (16+ / 0-)

    that Murphy wouldn't be on a show that involved anyone even close to his employers. Or he'd be fired. That's why bylines are supposed to indicate the writer's connections, so that you can tell if they're just pushing PR through.

    (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

    by PJEvans on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:08:02 PM PDT

  •  A pimp for the beltway bandits of the intelligence (14+ / 0-)

    industrial complex.

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:12:13 PM PDT

  •  The proof of course would be if Tradmed (15+ / 0-)

    actually went to their own IT people and asked them for the tech implications of the revelations of Risen,& Lichtblau of the times, Wired Magazine and the Guardian.

          Since they have chosen to continue to consult tech troglodytes they're interesting in pushing a narrative and not journalism.

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:20:09 PM PDT

  •  Ya' got a clue Hunter. I do hope it's catchy. (10+ / 0-)

    Living the austerity dream.

    by jwinIL14 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:20:32 PM PDT

  •  The Beltway is not into accepting critisism (18+ / 0-)

    In this bubble (which includes Wall Street nowadays) they consider themselves infallible.

    Snowden's actions are unacceptable, violating the privacy of every American and spying on the rest of the world is one of their powers and they don't want to ever give it up.

    On the other hand they do care about their restaurants;

    D.C. Thinkfluencers Debate Beltway Restaurant Scene

    On Friday morning, the conservative pundit Erick Erickson squabbled with New York Times columnist Paul Krugman over the rising price of milk. Befitting their training, Krugman, an economist, was right; Erickson, a lawyer, was wrong. But as the Wire's Elspeth Reeve later noted, the pair's disagreement was really about whether the inhabitants of Washington, D.C. were too removed from the rest of the country and the real problems affecting it. As if hoping to prove this thesis glaringly true, two of Washington's most prominent economics writers spent the rest of the morning debating an issue that affects all Americans: whether the Beltway's collection of expensive restaurants truly caters to the appetites of the town's cognitive elite.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:21:08 PM PDT

  •  CBS Morning Show has already tried & convicted (15+ / 0-)

    Snowden, based upon their Snowden reports every 30 min. or more.  It's obvious they've been given their marching orders and are eager to oblige.
     

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:43:52 PM PDT

  •  Way to go Hunter! Statements of the REAL issues (21+ / 0-)

    at hand - Conflict of Interest.

    And you are Correct - 100% - failing to disclose the connections to the case is crooked!

    KUDOs for stating the facts as they are.

    A very rare thing these days;
    even here on DK...


    Mitt Romney was CEO of Bain until Aug 2001. Proof of Bain & Romney Fraud

    by laserhaas on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:44:02 PM PDT

  •  "Small minds talk about people (4+ / 0-)
    Medium minds talk about events.
    Large minds talk about ideas."
    I'm not sure who first said it, but it seems apt.

    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

    by david78209 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:44:21 PM PDT

  •  From the perspective (12+ / 0-)

    of a large well connected private contractor who works closely with the DHS, this is journalistic excellence.

    All others pay cash, (and STFU.)

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:56:34 PM PDT

  •  That 1st paragraph sums up so much of what... (15+ / 0-)

    ails us.

    And it's the reason I have started migrating to foreign press more. The US Press is getting worse. Their bad reporting and slanted journalism is confusing and obfuscating when they should be edifying and educating.

    Guardian here I come.

    I am also retooling my US sources of info. More pro publica, McClatchy DC, less (insert crap American source).

  •  Shouldn't Hunter be charged with a crime? (5+ / 0-)

    Sorry, it'll take a while before the MTP-stank wears off...
    My bad..

    :-/

  •  I would rather .. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth, shaharazade, adrianrf

    cut my manhood off with a dull rusty knife than watch MTP.

    Hillary Clinton 2016

    by artr2 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:10:33 PM PDT

  •  It's not that Snowden is "crooked" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NoMoJoe

    It's just that he's not always correct in believing that the NSA spies on EVERYONE and as he once said, "the NSA can literally watch you as you type".

    How many times must The Guardian and those that take Snowden at face-value walk back these "assumptions" about these programs?

    http://thedailybanter.com/...

  •  When You Have Corporate Government and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    niemann, NonnyO

    corporate press, the free press is the state press.

    This is structurally so, it's not some kind of omission or failing of the press.

    They're doing what the 1st Amendment is designed for them to do.

    There is no fix for this without significantly reducing freedom of the press, at minimum as was the case in the New Deal - Great Society period.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:13:41 PM PDT

  •  When Plame was outed (0+ / 0-)

    We criticized the leaker (Rove/Libby) and the reporter (Novak).

    But no one here suggested Novak may have committed a crime? Really??

    •  please tell us (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, lotlizard, NonnyO, Nada Lemming

      whose identity was outed by snowden. please tell us what good there was in plame being outed. thanks.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:28:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Two points. (9+ / 0-)

      First, Plame was outed in commission of a larger crime - a war crime, in fact.  Plame and hubby were working against the war of aggression being sold to us with lies by Bush and Cheney.  That 'leak' was necessary to keep lying us into over a decade of war, more than a trillion dollars 'wasted' (ie, public monies poured into private war profiteer coffers).

      Second, actually, no, I don't recall anyone ever suggesting Novak might have committed a crime.  I could be wrong, but even though he was a stooge for an administration bent on starting an unnecessary war built upon a net of lies and 'trust us' messages sent to Congress, there's nothing particularly illegal about pretending to be a journalist while merely parroting whatever the administration wants.  Many 'journalists' see nothing wrong with merely repeating talking points.

      Oh, and I guess a third point, although it's covered in the first - the 'Plame leak' was in service of those committing the crimes, not to reveal any potential crimes or ill-advised actions on the part of agencies.

  •  My testimony is about CBS's John Miller... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KJG52, lotlizard, Nada Lemming

    Scott Pelley noted Miller's former NSA and FBI positions the night Snowden came out of the closet. Not a word since and that kind of shit requires full disclosure every time a reporter disses somebody (which Miller constantly does to Snowden). We are witnessing the death of journalism.
    Miller's wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/..._(journalist)

    John Miller is an American journalist and a former government official. He is the former Associate Deputy Director of National Intelligence for Analytic Transformation and Technology. Prior to that, he was an Assistant Director of Public Affairs for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), where he was the bureau's national spokesman.
    Miller thinks Snowden should be friggin executed or something.
    When Snowden used the words "he had the authorities" Miller went ballistic claiming Snowden had no such "authority."

    A clever use of the word "authorities" by Snowden methinks.

  •  Let's not forget (12+ / 0-)

    that the so-called journalists get their marching orders, not from the politicians, but from their corporate masters.

      So why are the corporations working so hard to protect the Big Brother Government, unless the government and the corporate media are one and the same?

    “Wall Street had been doing business with pieces of paper; and now someone asked for a dollar, and it was discovered that the dollar had been mislaid.” ― Upton Sinclair

    by gjohnsit on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:45:42 PM PDT

  •  remarkable indeed. Whatever one thinks of Snowden, (9+ / 0-)

    NBC needed to make Murphy's conflict clear. No excuse.

  •  engineers and david gregorys (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adrianrf

    civil engineers could be accused of all these same corrupt inclinations, since they are paid to find an answer suitable to getting more rewards. but engineers have a license with their name on it, which can be taken away by an independent engineering board, and they take an oath, to mind the public good, and they take all that seriously. cutting corners and corrupt work is hard to hide from your peers.

    It's a great testament of the times, that david gregory is at the top of the journalism game, and he is openly corrupt and very bad practitioner.  that shouldn't happen

    what lincoln said http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/10/abraham-lincoln-was-on-to-wind-power-long-before-the-rest/

    by rasfrome on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:00:57 PM PDT

  •  What's amazing to me is the complete abandonment (5+ / 0-)

    of the First Amendment by the Fourth Estate, they must realize that by pillorying sources and reporters that they are cutting their own throats. Just the blatant lack of self awareness, reflection and critical thinking makes me feel a tremendous sense of cognitive dissonance. Before the Iraq War, and the GWOT, I used to caution people about the typical "villager," but I never thought the media would destroy their own business model in order to preserve access and favor, but after the NY Times, all the major networks, the Washington Post and NPR decided to commit credibility suicide on Iraq, this really doesn't surprise me, it just makes me stand in awe of the Orwellian gobbledygook that is spouted by the media on the issue of state spying.

    I expect the government spokespersons to lie and manipulate - unfortunately, their job is not to inform, but to evade; however, if the Fourth Estate is going to support TPTB in the lies and manipulation, then there is no press or investigative media worthy of that name.

    This whole incident has revealed more to me about my government, the establishment media and the politics of surveillance, than I ever wanted to know. The shameful actions of our government, media and courts in this episode are brushed aside to sell a "Where's Waldo" story that literally calls "Waldo" a traitor, spy, treasonous wretch and friend of totalitarians, while completely ignoring the foundational issues of government intrusion,   abuse of power under color of authority and characterizing anyone who finds this offensive as: ignorant, anti-Obama, uneducated, technically lacking in knowledge and proficiency in the workings of the government and its technology, unable to grasp the real damage that has been done etc... While trying to keep us ignorant and uninformed about the same government and technology that they supposedly want to "welcome the debate," on.

    To call this Orwellian is an understatement...  

    "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

    by KJG52 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:21:14 PM PDT

  •  It is fine a good that we discuss press (6+ / 0-)

    corruption, but this has been going on for a very long time.  It is why I would never spend time watching broadcast news other than the occasional viewing in an airport bar.  It is profoundly insulting to listen to these brutal clowns.  

    There was never any pristine time for the press but previous eras have been much better than ours.  The corporate media in this country is at least as controlled as that of China or the old Soviet Union.  You will NEVER hear anything contrary to the ruling corporate interests on MSNBCABCFOX, Inc.  

    This particular episode of press corruption is a bit breathtaking in it's intellectual decadence but only slightly more so that what happens every day.  

    The Long War is not on Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran. It is on the American people.

    by Geonomist on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:23:01 PM PDT

  •  MSM push law shielding mainstream journalists ONLY (4+ / 0-)

    http://www.truth-out.org/...

    But a press release from [D-NY Senator Charles] Schumer's office states explicitly: "WikiLeaks doesn't quality for protection … [because] the site does not fit the bill's definition of a journalist, which requires that the covered party regularly engage in legitimate newsgathering activities." According to the press release, senators are also working with media conglomerates to craft "new language that will explicitly exclude organizations like WikiLeaks, whose sole or primary purpose is to publish unauthorized disclosures of documents…"

    This law should invoke fear. It only protects Big Media. Citizen journalists are still exposed to government persecution and prosecution. The bill, in the end, empowers the government to define who is a journalist and to silence "illegitimate newsgathering."

    The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ☮ ♥ ☺

    by lotlizard on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:52:43 PM PDT

    •  Schumer is a braying ass (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming, lotlizard, adrianrf, rlochow

      Is he willing to tell us the truth about what the government is doing behind our back with these so-called "secret laws" and "secret legal opinions" that allegedly "justify" hoovering ALL electronic data???

      Our Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves over the very notion of a "secret government" running the show behind the public government we are supposed to have based on their Founding Documents....

      This is NOT the kind of government my Rev. War ancestors fought to establish.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:57:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One reason we shouldn't be outsourcing -- provides (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric Nelson, eru

    A nice cushy landing for corrupt lawmakers.  

    Whether or not this spying has merit, the pipeline of influence and money must end.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:00:38 PM PDT

  •  Or How about R Reed on MTP today!! (0+ / 0-)

    America, We blow stuff up!!

    by IndyinDelaware on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:55:13 PM PDT

  •  Is this not also a reminder (0+ / 0-)

    that the people willing to pay for traditional media still trust, implicitly by their continued viewership, the things that come out of the mouths of the traditional media and

    Maybe if more dKos readers were willing to pay for traditional media, the traditional media would do a more thorough job.

    It's amazing what people will do to others in the name of themselves.

    by ABlueKansas on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:15:40 PM PDT

    •  I'd be willing to pay for traditional media (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming

      ... AFTER they STOP lying to us.

      There are facts and truth.

      And then there are opinions based on nothing whatsoever spewed as "a version of the truth," or "one side of the truth."  Riiiiiiiiight.  NOT.

      Facts and truth don't have "sides."  They just are.

      I have opinions of my own.  I can form those opinions only after I have truth and facts.  I reserve the right to change my mind on any opinions I have based on new facts as they become available.  I do NOT need someone else's opinion masked as "truthiness" to make up my own mind on any issues..., and I'm certainly not going to pay good money to hear someone spout their versions of various aspects of truthiness absent any facts or truth whatsoever.

      Between increasing numbers of stupid commercials played at a volume guaranteed to crack an ear drum (even if the law now stipulates they're supposed to keep it down - ha!) and media acting like good little stenographers and using psyops to sway us to believe the government's version of details while we know they're lying, and infotainment spewed as "news" (seriously, results of reality shows is NOT "news" or worthy of being the first item up on the "news"), there's no good reason to pay for cable or any other "news" that pretends to keep us informed.

      So... first, the truth and facts - which, BTW, ought not to have to be paid for.  Truth should just be a public service broadcast for our benefit to keep us informed about what our government is doing... the "Fourth Estate" our Founding Fathers envisioned would keep politicians on the straight and narrow.  Obviously, that's not working.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:51:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  'Meet the Press' vs. Snowden. Who's more crooked? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NonnyO, eru, adrianrf

    I think most people miss the point of Mr. Snowdens' action. The people who's emails and telephone conversations that have been recorded goes way beyond the U.S.A.. Mr. Snowdens' documents show just the tip of the ice berg of the U.S.A.'s reach.
    If an agent in Omaha, for example, can read the email for anyone in Florida, or record a conversation between someone in Nevada and Romania, which the U.S. government has already admitted to, just how far is their reach.
    The answer is everywhere there is a phone on planet Earth. The NSA program encompasses the entire planet. No one has privacy any more, NO ONE.
    Congressman Boehner can say all he wants about how much of a traitor Mr. Snowden is to the U.S.A., but he isn't to the rest of the world. Americans can give up whatever rights they have, or lose them to a law that the American congress writes. But, whatever law they come up with does not change the laws of New Zealand, nor does it alter the laws of Bulgaria, or Denmark, or Chile or any other country.
    The actions of the U.S.A. is illegal and unethical. I call upon the government of the U.S.A. to give an accounting for their actions.

  •  Dear Cretinous Congress Critters: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eru, adrianrf, Icicle68, rlochow

    WHY is our national security outsourced to fucking CORPORATIONS?!?!?

    You already outsourced illegal and unconstitutional wars against common criminals to fucking mercenary and military-industrial CORPORATIONS.

    You already outsourced our health care to fucking insurance, medical, and pharmaceutical CORPORATIONS.

    Now we find out you all are trying to kill the corporate messenger (with bad press, and by pulling his passport) who revealed to us what we already knew: the US government is illegally and unconstitutionally spying on us and everyone else in the world...!  Stop it!  I didn't think I could be any more ashamed of being an American than I already am over the illegal and unconstitutional wars and torture and Gitmo still being open.

    Shouldn't you FIRST ask WHY our national security was outsourced to a fucking CORPORATION?  Corporations don't keep secrets, you idiots!  Booz Allen Hamilton has huge financial ties to the Carlyle Group which is tied to the Bush Crime Family and the Bin Laden Crime Family (altho they allegedly and quietly sold off their shares of Carlyle after 9/11).

    Edward Snowden did us all a favor by confirming what we already knew, especially after FISA fiasco '08 gave telecoms immunity for illegally and unconstitutionally spying on us without a warrant at Dumbya's and Dickie's orders - and Obama is continuing that tradition only with a "warrant" that isn't quite as legal as you all want it to be since those warrants are for hoovering up all data, even if it's a conversation with your aunt Betsy or uncle Sam or with your kids when they get home after school, and those conversations should not be listened to by anyone, least of all a fucking CORPORATION spying on us on behalf of the government!!!

    WHY are we "electing" you if all you are going to do is turn around and stab us in the back by allowing illegal and unconstitutional spying on us - by a private fucking CORPORATION, no less???

    Now..., start some common sense congressional action.  REPEAL IN FULL:

    'office of faith-based initiatives'
    AUMF
    Patriot Act
    MCA '06
    FISA fiasco '08
    MCA '09
    Gramm-Leach-Bliley (and reinstate Glass-Steagall at the same time).
    Close Gitmo!  Release the prisoners or put them on trial.

    We The People are tired of living without our full rights since We The People did NOT authorize you taking our rights away WITHOUT our express permission.

    DO SOMETHING constitutional for a change!!!

    I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

    by NonnyO on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:10:12 PM PDT

  •  I have a Computer Science minor from college (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nada Lemming

    CSC bastardizes Computer Science, they are up there with the worst (there is a lot of competition)

    And I am glad that it is now called "Informatics", although that has an orwellian feel to it too.

    Hunter does not churn out the content that he used to (in numbers) but every one of his posts are very good "blogging", though I guess now the First Amendent protections don't apply.  Tell that to Ben Franklin, our first blogger.

    Thank you, Hunter, for almost a decade of great dkos posts.

    To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    by Indiana Bob on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:40:56 PM PDT

  •  Thank you for exposing (0+ / 0-)

    the reach of institutionalized corruption that our political leaders condone and foster.

    Make no mistake, the institutionalized corruption began the day after the founders finished their work in 1787. And it is continuing unabated to the present day and now threatens the very existence of the republic.

    Knowledge is Power. Ignorance is not bliss, it is suffering. If you like hypocrite Obama, you'll love hypocrite Hillary.

    by harris stein on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 09:08:34 AM PDT

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