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If it looks like a coup, and quacks like a coup, there's a good chance it may be a coup.  All that optimistic Arab Spring democracy stuff is getting more and more complicated with each passing day.  Sure, Egypt's president Morsi was an inept Islamist politician who was a disaster, but he was, um, democratically elected and is more moderate than many of the other Islamists.  I'm all for separating church and state, but the majority doesn't seem to want to do that in Egypt.  (Not to mention the fact that the military didn't do themselves any favors shooting hundreds of protestors, no matter who fired the first shot.)

Why should we care about what goes on in Egypt?  Well, besides the fact that the Middle East wouldn't be helped by having multiple civil wars taking place, the United States gives loads of dough to Egypt.  We've been paying cold hard cash for a little stability in the region for decades, and would like for Egypt to remain somewhat sane and moderate.  Let's hope our only choice isn't between an extremist Islamic state or a repressive dictatorship like the ol' days.

It's always difficult taking an extremely complex situation and distilling it into a cartoon.  Here's hoping we don't all just tune Egypt out because it's complicated 'n' stuff.

Let me know what you think about the cartoon.  Like, share, comment and use your new Google retinal implant to tell your friends.

News!  In-a-nutshell!

Today's news is . . . Coup!  Or, not a coup.

On the streets of Cairo, Egypt, chaos reigns again after the military removed democratically-elected Mohammad Morsi from power.

Sure, chaos reigned when President Morsi was in power-- but was this a coup, or a popular uprising?

For the answer, let's turn to the White House and U.S. State Department!
Jay Carney: "Well, we like to call this a "coup-like overthrow thingie," not a coup per se-- since a coup may not be a coup, capiche?"
Because to call this a coup, would suspend all U.S. aid to Egypt (at one and a half billion a year, second only to Israel).

But the military brings stability, right?

Of course they do!  

If you overlook the fifty-some killed and hundreds wounded on Monday, and the corruption, torture and abuse in the five decades before Monday.

But thankfully, the inept Muslim Brotherhood is out of power because clearly the people of Egypt don't want Islam in their politics . . . (except for seventy percent of them or so).

All the while, extremist jihadi groups have been warning the more moderate Muslim Brotherhood that democracy was for suckers, and had no room for Islam--

-- a warning that carries more weight after this coup-like thingie.

So with more military might and blood in the streets, the Arab Spring in Egypt has turned to a long hot summer with occasional downpours of bullets, and increasing chance of martyrs.

Next installment: Syria, where fifty-some killed by the government is a good week!

Good night, and . . . spring sucks.

Originally posted to Comics on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 06:50 AM PDT.

Also republished by Adalah — A Just Middle East and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  If the same thing happened here...FREEDOM (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linkage, mikejay611, ethos, hoof32, crose

    Well or some other Real Amurica word that the French could translate as coup.

    Now if in 2003 it happened here it would be, "The Revolution of Terror!"

    Both sides and all that.

    Horrible government of Egypt replaced by horrible government of Egypt. It's a lose-lose for the people of Egypt.

    "You know, just because the thing I saw wasn't there doesn't mean there wasn't something there that I didn't see." Ann Althouse, Conservative Thoughtmeister

    by Bill Section 147 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:08:59 AM PDT

    •  What I think about the cartoon (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hoof32, Dave925

      just looking at the cover frame is that you make soldiers rather than generals look like mean thugs. Soldiers are generally ordinary individuals doing a job. The coup was led by some ambitious politicians pretending to be military officers who have been out to break Arab Spring from the start. Egypt has been through this before; eventually it gets to where the farmers have to go milk their cows, feed their oxen, do the plowing and harvest their crops and the plutocracy marches on.

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:59:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sure it's a coup... (8+ / 0-)


    Was that coup to protect the rights of the citizens who don't want an Islamic state, complete with the persecution of women and religious minorities, or

    Was the coup to protect the interests of the military elite?

    Or maybe some mix of the two?

    Thanks to the cartoonist for pointing out that as much as we might like to throw our hands up in the air & say maybe this is too complicated & we shouldn't take sides (as I have just done?), we (the US) is still in this game through our support of the Egyptian military.

    •  The Coup was to make sure the IMF gets to run (0+ / 0-)


      Since it was supported by the US, we already know it had nothing to do with human rights or the protection of minorities. .

      Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

      by JesseCW on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 01:56:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  US duplicity over the word coup notwithstanding (19+ / 0-)

    I still think what is happening in Egypt is a revolution in progress.  By that I mean the people, acting as "the people," rose up and overthrew a government (Mubarak) which had lost all legitimacy.  That is, the people took power into its own hands, removing it from the formal institutions of government.

    "The people," however, is a fiction, not a real tangible thing, and the reality is that different factions in Egypt have very different conceptions of what should replace the overthrown regime.  The overthrow of Morsi should be understood in these terms, as struggles within the revolution of which direction the revolution should take.

    The complicating factor here is the military as an institution, the one governing institution from the ancien regime to survive more or less intact.  The last time the military took direct control of politics, after it overthrew Mubarak, it was unable to sustain itself as the governing authority.  There's no reason to believe it will be able to do so this time.

    The new force in Egyptian politics is the power of the masses in the street.  Eventually, that power will be institutionalized into some kind of functioning democracy,  In the meantime, however, there will almost certainly be many changes of government, and very many of them will be violent.  There may be a civil war, as there was in France after its revolution and there was in Russia after its.  The revolution, however, will not be undone.

    When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

    by litho on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:12:59 AM PDT

    •  Just right. (8+ / 0-)

      Talking about this as if Egypt had an established, democracy government that was overthrown is not accurate. This has all happened during the government-forming period.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:22:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. This seems a period more (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe from Lowell, litho

        like France's post- revolution through the first couple of Republics. That is to say,evolving apace.

        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

        by tardis10 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:50:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What makes the author think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          that a majority of Egyptians endorse keeping Morsi in power? (the poll he cites shows a majority supporting some unspecified kind of Islamic government, not specifically Morsi's).

          What makes the author think that a democratically elected government can't overreach, violate its mandate, and de-legitimate itself?

          What makes the author think Morsi's election "completed" the Egyptian Revolution?

          What makes the author think the Islamic Brotherhood suddenly changed its stripes, repudiating its own history?

          •  There was an election. It was considered legit (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            by most neutral observers.

            The West, particularly the international banks, really didn't like the outcome, though.

            Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

            by JesseCW on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 01:57:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  It really only matters if... (5+ / 0-)

    you're counting coup.

    Chechnya: Russia's North Carolina.

    by NE2 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:15:15 AM PDT

  •  The U.S. Is NOT Being Altruistic (7+ / 0-)

    We don't give money to other countries to "promote democracy" -- but to dictatorships to promote "stability", which means access for multi-national business to operate freely in their country without worrying about such things as labor rights or environmental concerns.

    Herman Edwards long ago demonstrated the inverse correlation between democracy and foreign aid and direct correlation between military coups and an INCREASE in foreign aid (usually military).

    We should expect more bloodshed in Egypt to lead to more development assistance and foreign aid.

    So, there's no point in talking about U.S. development assistance to a country as if it were intended to promote "democracy" when it's usually the reverse.

  •  The reality is that lots and lots of Egyptians (3+ / 0-)

    were out in the streets protesting prior to the coup(ish).

    Your cartoon skips right over that.

    It's little like the way Kossacks like to focus on the puffed up airheads who claim to represent, speak for, and otherwise lead the "Tea Party" thingie without coming to grips with the millions who expressed their outrage and passion under it's name.

    I simply assume that to be a function of the people in power wanting the rest of us divided and squabbling amongst ourselves instead of focusing on the ways they screw us.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:27:12 AM PDT

    •  And lots and lots of people protested... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hoof32, JesseCW

      After the coup as well.  In a democracy, street protest doesn't typically invite a military overthrow of the government.  For example, the military would not have been justified putting Lyndon Johnson in jail, even though hundreds of thousands protested Vietnam.  Nor would they have been justified putting W. in jail, even though the world's largest protest said to stay out of Iraq.

      •  Apples and Oranges. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, LanceBoyle

        Nowhere did I suggest that a military coup was the appropriate response to street protests. Might have been, I don't know.

        But millions of people in the street doesn't exactly line up with somebody in the US phoning somebody in Cairo and saying, "Hey kids, let's have a coup!"

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:46:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Uh, not really. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        effdot, dinotrac, BYw, LanceBoyle

        I'm pretty sure that the MB is severely disappointed that so few people are showing up for their protests, despite them bussing in "protestors" from the countryside.

        The younger MB members even seem to be splitting off from the main group.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:43:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  In the U.S., (6+ / 0-)

    the 1% got away with a coup and the Third Way helped them. So I guess that's democracy.

    Optimism is when you shut your lyin' eyes. ☮ ♥ ☺
    Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

    by Words In Action on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:32:48 AM PDT

  •  It's unfair to equate this coup with others (7+ / 0-)

    The Muslim Brotherhood won the election unfairly in the first place, and then proceeded to behave so increasingly undemocratically that it brought the population to the streets again in such vast numbers that the Egyptian military, charged with keeping the country safe, determined there was a threat to national security and took action.  But unlike the militaries in many other countries, it is not a separate, elite, political/economic class, but rather as in Israel, it is the made up of the children and relatives of everyone.  Thus (as in the first revolution) the people in the streets joyfully chanted "the people and the military are one.". This was a populist coup more than a military one.  (And here in America, we have had one corporatist coup after another.)

    Was there a failure of democracy in Egypt?  Yes!  Do they need to do better?  Of course!  But bringing down Morsi was not the problem, it is halfway in between a symptom and a step in the right direction.  Egypt needs to fix the election problems that led to the Morsi victory in the first place and they need to make it easier to impeach their leaders without military involvement, so that inflexible Westerners don't cry foul the next time it happens.  And personally, I think they would be better off with a parliamentary system than a presidential one, given their deep, multi-directional social polarity.

    Are you a Green who has difficulty telling Democrats and Republicans apart? Well, I have difficulty telling Greens and Maoists apart.

    by Subversive on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:35:39 AM PDT

  •  Benghazi (0+ / 0-)

    22 Egyptians and Libyans were arrested in Egypt in connection to the Benghazi attack, along with evidence that they were involved in gun smuggling, had "overseas funding" and were planning to attack the US Embassy just before the November 2012 election.

    No doubt, there are others in custody of various nationalities ("Canadian?" Code for CIA. Oh yes, this is about Algeria too, and Gaza and Mali).

    This "coup" is a Kermit Roosevelt style overthrow. It is a neocon operation. It is an operation involving traitors inside US intelligence services who tried and failed to throw the US election to Romney.

    How often did you hear the "Romney is Reagan and Obama is Carter" meme?

    The first thing dictator Mansour did when he seized power is replace the intelligence chief in Egypt. The military may bring Morsi back to power, but not until the neocons finish their clean-up operation. The Mubarak and Gaddafi loyalists and their corporate mercenary friends who are in custody in Egypt will likely be killed and disappeared.

    Never heard of the arrests? Check it. October 2012.

    The evidence in Egypt will HANG Romney and his neocon fascist friends if it ever sees daylight. Also, several members of Congress currently pretending to pounding the table saying "We demand answers!" Their answers, should they get them, should put them in front of a firing squad for treason.

  •  Much as many progressives.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MPociask, Magnifico, JesseCW

    ...don't want to admit, it's a coup.  A military coup, one that was co-led by a people's revolt.  But a coup nonetheless.

    Barbara Boxer and especially Carl Levin nailed it the other day on NRP:

    Failure to Publicize Acts of Hatred Only Allows Them to Fester and Metastasize.

    by BoxerDave on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:43:01 AM PDT

  •  Here's my two cents (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subversive, Lawrence, effdot

    We've determined in this country, by learning it the hard way, that certain things won't work in government, even if the majority of people support it.     It doesn't matter if a majority of the people vote to continue slavery.   It's not sustainable.

    There is a quote in our Constitution that says "We hold these truths to be self-evident".    Beyond Constitution, beyond elections, there are self-evident truths that form the basis of a democratic government.   If elections run counter to those self-evident truths, the democracy does not have a solid foundation, and is likely to crumble.  

    According to this young man that is exactly what is happening.   While he is a minor child, I will call him a young man, because his comments were as mature as any adult I've heard discussing this issue.

    My name is Ali Ahmed.   I'm in first grade prepatory.  [eq 12 years old].  I'm here today to help prevent Egypt from becoming a commodity owned by one person and to protest the confiscation of the Constitution by one single party. We didn't get rid of a military regime to replace it with a fascist theocracy.

    Fascist theocracy?  I don't even know what that means.

    Fascist theocracy is when you manipulate religion, enforce extremist regulations in the name of religion, even though religion doesn't command that.

    Who taught you all this?

    I just know it.

    How do you know it?

    I listen to people a lot, and I use my own brain.  Plus, I read newspapers, watch TV and search in the internet.

    So you see that the country is not doing well, and has to change?

    You mean politically or socially?  The social objectives of the revolution are yet to be achieved.  Economic empowerment, freedom and social justice.  There are still no jobs.  The police still jails people randomly.  As for social justice, how can a news anchor get 30 millions Egyptian pounds while some people still pick food from garbage?  Politically speaking, where is the Constitution that represents us?

    For example, women are half of our society.  Why are there just seven women in the Constituent assembly, six of whom are Islamists?  So, you think they are going to manipulate the Constitution?   What is built on falsehood is false, itself. Even if the Constitution is nice, but the assembly that drafted it is bad, we will end up with something bad.   Don't bring me 80 good articles and 20 bad ones that will ruin the country and then tell me this is a Constitution.  

    Did you read the Constitutional draft?  


    On the Internet.

    For example, they say that women are equal to men in all matters, except in matters that contradict Islamic law.  But, then, Islamic laws allows men to discipline their wives.   This can't work in society.

    Why not?  What's the problem?

    The problem is that it's outrageous.   I can't beat my wife up and almost kill her and then tell you this is discipline.  This is not discipline.   This is abuse and insanity.    All of this [political process] is void, because the parliament in the first place is void -- popularly and constitutionally void.   Some parties based their campaign on mixing religion and politics.   Mosques were mobilizing voters.  They distributed sugar and cooking oil to the voters.  And, many other things like that.

    As described by this young man, the revolution is equivalent to the civil war that we experienced in the United States of America to end slavery.  The elections have been unduly influenced.  The assembly that is writing the Constitution is not representative of the people.   So, no.  It's not a coup against democracy.   It is a struggle for democracy.  It's a revolution.   A civil war, fighting to free the slaves, the women slaves.

    Hopefully these are the birthing pains of a true democracy.

    Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it a Hollywood movie star.   And, putting on an election or a constitutional assembly, does not a democracy make, as this young man so aptly pointed out.   As long as there are still slaves in your society, your society is not a democracy, because, obviously, the slaves do not truly have a voice in their government, no matter how many elections you hold.  No woman chooses to be "disciplined" to the point of death by her husband.   Obviously, if she had a voice, she would vote to live, and even to divorce her abuser.

    No matter how many people in Eqypt vote to keep women slaves, women are not going quietly, and you can't really get rid of the women in a country, because without women, there are no men.

  •  Let them knock each other off. It's what they (0+ / 0-)

    like to do, and what they will do, no matter what we do.  So let's stop agonizing what we should do, because there's really nothing to do.

  •  if the Military doesn't seize power. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    if they call for elections, pursuant to the constitution
    and work to see that it's reasonably clean and fair,
    then step back it's not a coup.

    when millions of people are in the streets demanding
    morsi's ouster, then it's a failed government,
    so call it a popular vote of no confidence and move on.

    if we end up with another mubarak, then it's a problem

    •  Iran in the 50s (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Read about the overthrow of Moussadegh.

      This coup is a similar operation.

      The neocons paid one group to go around burning churches, beating people up, etc, and calling themselves Morsi supporters.

      Then they paid another group to go around, attacking Morsi supporters and calling themselves "revolutionaries"

      The press, the courts, the military and corporate big shots in Egypt are Mubarak-regime loyalists, and they have ties to neocons here in the US.

      To give one example, the Egyptian government had to spend a lot of money publishing and distributing copies of the new constitution because the press wouldn't publish it. Instead, they published lies and distortions about what was in the constitution and what it meant.

      NOT ONE western press organization published the new constitution. Instead, they published the lies and distortions.

      The gun smuggling from Libya to Gaza is another example. Corporate mercenaries tied to Romney want a big "war on terror" revival. It's mainly about money. The smuggling route uses territory controlled by Apache corporation in Egypt. Morsi shut it down.

      The Libyan government shut down the neocon gun smuggling operation to Mali, which they were conducting with Gaddafi loyalists and foreign mercenaries and a certain smuggler called "the Marlboro Man" because he was mainly interested in smuggling cigarettes until the "Canadian contractor" and other neocon operatives enlisted him to help create "the rise of al queda" in Northern Africa.

      The neocons are an international fascist threat to all humankind. They are protection racket gangsters, and it's time to start eliminating them. We could lock up about 2000 of them for life and make this a better world.

    •  Its still a coup. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      "coup" is short for "coup de etat", or in spanish "golpe de estado", "blow to the state".

      This was a populist coup, taking down a government supported by a minority and opposed by a majority.

      The reason why things are not likely to end well is that majority is cobbled together from (arguably) 20%-30% of the population that are secularists, (arguably) 20%-30% moderate Islamacists who came to oppose Morsi because of the incompetence and corruption, of his government, and (arguably) 10%-20% hard liners that were opposed to a Western-style constitutional democracy altogether, in favor of "Islamic democracy".

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:50:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for the effort to take on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, BruceMcF, effdot

    such a complex situation for a political animated cartoon.

    There is one aspect you left out, that is essential to understand what happened when Morsi was elected.

    It goes to the question of what does "democratically elected" even mean when a large fraction of the electorate sits out the election as a protest against fraud and corruption.

    When elections are run in such a way that people refuse to vote - have their slit their own throats, forever?

    When the losing parties don't accept the legitimacy of the election process there are more fundamental problems in governing going forward. We have a fine example of that mess here in the US.

    And third, if an elected leader, in their attempt to neutralize their enemies, betrays the promise and ideals on which they were elected, and fails to govern on behalf of ALL the citizens, at what point to the citizens have a legitimate right to petition their elected government to change course?

    I don't consider myself "well-informed" about Egypt, but have read that most of the profitable businesses are owned or controlled by military. If that's true,then the military has a vested interest in avoiding civil war. It that is true and it helps the country avoid widespread violence and wrecked infrastructure, so that they can throw out their first elected leader, AND if that they can then try again to establish a process for a free and fair election process - is that kind of temporary governance really a coup?

    I don't know enough poli sci to give a firm opinion.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:18:00 AM PDT

  •  Shallow, under-informed view of middle eastern (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subversive, BruceMcF, effdot

    history and politics.

    I can't tell you everything that's wrong with your analysis in a single comment or diary. But this is the kind of superficial analysis of other cultures that we see on tv all the time, and it completely misrepresents the complexities developed over centuries by a set of interlocking cultures and civilizations.

    I would venture to say that you know nothing about your subject, which renders your cartoon anti-informative and your mocking attitude frankly repulsive.

    "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

    by Bob Love on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:31:53 AM PDT

  •  Honestly... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I find the question of "coup or not a coup" to be ridiculously simplistic and fairly uninteresting, except for the fact that the maintenance of some aid is contingent upon one answer. If I had to characterize the ouster of Mursi, I'd say that it was a muscular expression of the entrenched deep-state, assisted through an ad hoc alliance with the fragile alliances of the political and popular oppositions. For all his faults, and there were indeed many, Mursi's Constitutional Declarations were revolutionary in that they strove to reduce the authority of two (military, judiciary) of the three (add crony-capitalists) major interest-groups of the Egyptian deep-state. Now, of course, the deep-state is resurgent.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:48:35 AM PDT

    •  His declarations also reduced the power of (0+ / 0-)

      his political opponents as well.

    •  Yes, it assumes that a 'coup' is a single ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angry marmot

      ... type of action, when it ranges from a military seizing power in a coup from a democratically elected government still supported by a majority of the country through toppling (without seizing power) a democratically elected government that has lost the confidence of the majority of the country, to toppling an authoritarian government that previously relied on the military as its major source of support ~ maybe to a different authoritarian government, maybe to attempt a transition to democracy.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:54:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well Done. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Tipped over and wRECked.

    "Sell 'crazy' someplace else, we're all stocked up here." -Melvin Udall

    by hoof32 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:24:40 AM PDT

  •  Time will tell if it is a coup or not. (0+ / 0-)

    A Coup D'Etat generally involves the military taking over for a long period of time or permanently and it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

    I find it odd that so many are eager to call it a coup now yet nary a soul was calling it a coup when Mubarak was pushed out by the military.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:59:09 AM PDT

    •  No, a Coup de Etat is simply the ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ... military overthrowing a government.

      That's it. Egypt had a coup.

      The fact that a coup d'etat "generally involves" a military seizing power does not mean that its not a Coup d'etat if the military topples the government without seizing power. It just means its one of the other, less common, types of coup.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:57:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Popular sovereignty (0+ / 0-)

    People can no more cede sovereignty than a person can sell him/herself into slavery.

    A democratic vote to install a party who believes that sovereignty resides with Allah, not with the people is a contradiction in terms.  

  •  Not all systems of Checks & Balances... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    effdot like America's. In many countries, their military plays that role when their administrations become too self-centered. Our Constitution protects the rights of minority parties/groups/opinions (albeit imperfectly), but many nations' governing documents do not, or if they do, they become circumvented by the majority.

    That's what happened in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood took their victory and immediately began trampling over the rights of their minority populations including those who had supported Morsi in coalition thinking the other guy was worse. Oops.

    When a year later, the people of Egypt made it clear that Morsi had betrayed them, they rose up, the military played its extraconstitutional role to check tyrannical power, ousted it, set up an interim government, and announced a reasonable timetable for new elections and the formation of a new constitution.

    Was it a coup? No. It was just another manifestation of the notion of Checks & Balances. It was not the American way, but it could be a whole lot worse.

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    by Jimdotz on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:33:43 AM PDT

  •  I won't call it a coup until (0+ / 0-)

    we see if and when new elections can be held.  If none are held, it was a coup; if they are, it was a reaction to millions of demonstrators (something we've never seen in the U.S.) demanding the administration resign and new elections be held.

    As far as financial aid to Egypt, the IMF gave $4.8 billion, Saudi Arabia and the UAE gave $8 billion to the Morsi regime, and Qatar is offering $8 billion and Turkey $2 billion now.  Making the U.S. $1.5 billion seem small in comparison.

    There is a battle of money and influence going on  for the soul of Egypt, or at least of Egypt's military.

    Perhaps it is a financial coup that is taking place.

    •  Did the military topple the old government? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:


      It was a coup.

      Will the aftermath of the coup involve setting up direct authoritarian rule by the military? That's a common aftermath to a coup, but the fact that there were a wave of golpes de estado" in Latin America in the seventies and eighties that resulted in military rule does not mean that's the only possible aftermath to the military overthrowing a government.

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      by BruceMcF on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:00:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There are misleading stats and simplifications ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    madcitysailor, DFWmom

    ... in the article, the cartoon, and the comments.

    74% of Egyptians don't favor Sharia; 74% of Egyptian Muslims favor Sharia Law, at least as of the last poll conducted by Pew. That means, out of the population, somewhere between 54%-67% of the country.

    Second, there are differences among Egyptians about what that would mean. The Egyptian constitution specifies that their laws need to be Islamic. What defines 'Sharia Law' is also up for debate. Like, one of the sources of Sharia is the Sunnah, the second hand accounts of Mohammed's life and sayings. The sources and sayings and interpretations of the Sunnah vary from region to region; there's no single 'Sharia Rule Book' to play from.

    Third, these stats may be more relevant. They show a thin majority supporting Morsi in March (53%), well before the street protests grew into 33 million people.

    Fourth, why ignore the 33 million people who took to the streets in Egypt?

    Fifth, seriously, what would a better outcome have been? Should the stand off have remained? Would it have been better if the military shot at the 33 million protesters? Should they have gone home?

    Sixth, no, I'm really serious now. What would a better outcome have been? Would it have been better if the Egyptian military (with 67% popular support among Egyptians according to Pew) had stayed out of it? Let the Muslim Brotherhood shoot at the protesters?

    Seventh, what about Morsi? He wasn't dealing with the other factions in his government; are people supposed to say, "Ok, no problem," until the next election? What if there is no next election? How do you know there would be another election?

    Eighth, we are lionizing the efforts of Wendy Davis and the people who turned out in Texas to support her. Should those people sit at home, and wait for another election?

    Ninth, does anyone know who Mohammed El-Barradai is on this site? Has anyone been paying attention to what he's been saying?

    Tenth, there are times for heroes and villains. There are also times for allies and enemies. There's also time for recognizing complexity, and not thinking like George W. Bush.

    George W. Bush reduced the world to a binary equation, "You're either for us or against us." Life isn't a binary equation, and anyone trying to break down a complex narrative into something simple wants to sell you something.

    So, what are we being sold here? What's the real issue? Is it that some progressives are disdainful of the actual events that happen in revolutions? Do we hate all militaries and soldiers? What's the real beef here?

    Is it, that we want perfect processes and outcomes? Would we be okay with a perfect process (an election) that leads to a distasteful outcome?

    And finally, since when are elections the only democratic institution that matters?

    There's too much George W. Bush thinking about Egypt from progressives, too much knee-jerk, "who's the good guy and who's the bad guy?" It's more complex than that, and it's ok to recognize that societal changes are complex.

  •  Perhaps we should call it (0+ / 0-)

    a "Democratic Coup d’E´tat"

    Which would permit the word coup to be used but in a new and increasingly occurring phenomenon.

  •  Sudden Improvements in Egypt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Suggest a Campaign to Undermine Morsi-- to give some context to what happened.

    Some people who wouldn't hesitate to call what is happening in Egypt a coup also have little problem calling the massacre of MB supporters on Monday a... massacre. It really doesn't matter which of the fighting factions you favor or whether you're completely neutral or even bored.

    Calling things by their right names matters. A coup is a coup, a massacre is a massacre, and those who play the "well, maybe it was justified, so let's name it something else" fail in wisdom.  

    Justice is not served, only power.

    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

    by felix19 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:08:59 PM PDT

  •  I wish (0+ / 0-)

    that intense cynicism had enough energy to change things. Without it we would die of broken hearts but I do wish we could do something about this stuff.

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