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I met Lori Harris as I left the Texas Senate. I was listening to Texas District 10 Sen. Wendy Davis drill Texas District 18 Sen. Glenn Hager on his draconian bill, Senate Bill one that would effectively shut down all but five abortion clinics in Texas. I needed to find a restroom and she pointed the way. I saw her look of disapproval as I wore orange, the "Stand With Texas Women" T-shirts that have been dominating the protest in Austin for the last month.

I decided that she was ripe for an interview. It turns out, interviewing Lori was pleasant, amusing, and in some ways frightening. To be clear, Lori seemed to be a very nice person with strong religious convictions. What is frightening is that her religious convictions over the years have been indirectly codified into Texas law.

Lori’s convictions are Bible based which when codified excludes anyone not believing in her Bible or in her interpretation of her Bible. She is unable to understand that pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion or anti-life. She is unable to comprehend that in a free society no one should impose on someone else’s body.

It is rather amazing that most of the women in the anti-choice movement seem so anti-woman. They are prepared to put all penalties and restrictions on the human reproductive process on women. Does anyone believe that if men were forced to have procedures that in effect eliminated unwanted pregnancies, there would be any debate in a male dominated congress to force said procedure. Would men support forcing sexually active men to have reversible vasectomies until they are ready for procreation? Does that sound silly or draconian? That is no different than the restrictions and penalties placed on women by all the draconian anti-woman laws being passed in states run by Republicans throughout the nation.

Women as was demonstrated in Austin from an organic grassroots movement have been mobilized. They are making their voices heard like never before in Texas. Such behavior is likely to be contagious throughout the entire nation. When it coalesces, there will be a new day in the country’s body politic as women assert their power.

Originally posted to ProgressiveLiberal on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:28 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Interesting how she says (9+ / 0-)

    that America must heal through compromise, yet is so unwilling to ... you know... compromise.

    "Only a Vulcan mind meld will help with this congress." Leonard Nimoy, 3/1/13

    by nzanne on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:09:26 AM PDT

  •  Choosing to have sex (6+ / 0-)

    So you support an exception for rape?

    Only God can take life away. So you are anti-death penalty? anti- 2nd  amendment? support an exception to save the life of the mother?

  •  I wish she could prove this god exists. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linkage, hnichols, mookins

    then we could all live under the rules of this god.

    But that is always the problem, no one can prove that God exists.

    •  ah, but you only need faith! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      linkage, hnichols, merrywidow, mookins

      Faith, by definition is the belief in the unbelievable. (otherwise you don't need faith.)
      We assign great credit to those who believe the unbeliebable- the more unbelievable, the greater the credit.

      Personally, I would rather live in a world where the laws of nature cannot be suspended by a capricious and jealous god, where the  sun does not stand still in the sky  (imagine the result if that ever actually happened), where we are ruled by a mean god who evidently cares more about the outcome of high school football games than the drowing of thousands in a tsunami, or hurricane or tornado.

      As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

      by BPARTR on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:38:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is no creator god (6+ / 0-)

      like this woman believes. Maybe there's a god outside the time/space and laws of thermodynamics and gravity, but I have no evidence for it, and neither do you. Her whole argument is based on her belief in such a creator god. Alas it's pointless to try and talk to people like her, because she's ignorant and has a closed mind to other perspectives, other religions, or science.

      I could just as easily make an argument from the Buddhist perspective that aborted fetuses were reincarnated beings, who just didn't have enough good karma to get reborn as a human. So go back to the realm of animals or hungry ghosts, or wherever you came from until you have enough good karma. Except that I have no evidence for reincarnation.

      I think eventually, we will defeat these horrible anti-abortion laws, but it won't be soon. What will turn the tide is one or more generations of women getting murdered and/or mutilated by unsafe abortions. When enough of America's daughters resort to the coat hanger or drinking bleach, then maybe, just maybe, they will listen to reason and support sensible laws for family planning that make abortions safe, legal, and rare.

      The Republican brand is totally bankrupt.

      by vlyons on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:59:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Defeating anti-abortion laws will not be done with (0+ / 0-)

        Atheism or Godless arguments.  I say this as an Atheist.  Too many people require a "higher being" lording over and watching over their lives.  Most people don't really want to think too deeply when the conformity of belief is so much easier and comforting.

  •  So she's anti death penalty ! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    white blitz, hnichols, Chun Yang

    "Only God can take a life" her words. Natch, she'll find another biblical loophole to justify what I'm sure is her vocal support for the death penalty.

    I missed the part of the Constitution that said the bible trumps everything else. Need to re-read apparently.

    OK mom always said to find one nice thing to say so I will definitely say the upside to that interview was getting to hear Egberto's voice.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:38:36 AM PDT

    •  of course not (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lilredhead, qofdisks

      Because an adult has the opportunity to confess, repent and save their immortal soul. A baby on the other hand does not.  That is why hell is dominated by fertilized eggs that never implanted.  Figure the number of women that are having regular unprotected sex, cut that in half, and that is the number of fertilized eggs each year that these religious people believe are going to hell, due to original sin, with no chance to repent.

      Then there are the number of implanted fetuses that do get a chance to grow, but miscarriage.  Again, about a third of pregnancies end with a miscarriage, which christian lawmakers want to turn into a crime, because, presumably, they think it means a baby is going to hell, which would imply the second largest population are these fetuses.

      Of course we also have to remember that US has pretty  much the highest stillborn rate of any developed country.  This, to me, is curious as Christians could actually do something about this and save these actual fully developed humans from a life in purgatory, but all we seem to hear from them is that taxes are already too high and parents should take personal responsibility.  But these are few in number.

      I don't really believe that the almighty is malicious, just uninterested.  I certainly don't believe the almighty exists to hear prayers about one's desire to become rich, or get a better cell phone, or a prettier wife, or really would set a world in which fertilized eggs and fetuses go to hell.  What sense would it make?  But many Christians I meet do believe this.  That they are rich because of their beliefs, that they are entitled to better things, and that that hell is full of babies, and our job is to minimize this injustice by questioning the wisdom of the creator.

      •  The man, and many others, are asking the wrong (3+ / 0-)


        The correct question is not "Is it alive?"  The correct question is "Is it a human being?"

        Most of the cells in in our bodies are "alive."  If I scratch a mosquito bite on my arm, I'm destroying some dead dermis cells, but I'm also killing thousands of living skin cells. Is that murder?

        No. Those cells are not human beings.

        A two-day old zygote is a clump of a few hundred undifferentiated cells. (It's astonishing how many RTLers think that a day or two after fertilization, there's a tiny fully-formed human being in the womb.) It's absolutely alive, but it's not a human being.  Any more than the hard-boiled egg I'm going to eat in a few minutes is a baby chick.  

        If women could get safe, legal and early abortions via the "morning after" pill, no "baby" would ever die.

        But that's not the point of this whole "war on women." The point is to keep women "barefoot and pregnant." Poor and powerless. Unable to compete with men.

        The "saving innocent babies" theme is what the 1% and their political shills use to support their true goal...making sure that the power and the money stays in the hands of rich, white, "Christian" males.

        Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

        by Sirenus on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 05:25:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Except they always talk about "innocent" life (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I'm not sure that most of the Fundies and forced-birthers really believe in original sin, they'd probably think that's a Catholic belief. Even if it is in the Bible, but modern Christian fundamentalism is wonderful at picking and choosing which bits of the Bible they want to believe in, or at least want to emphasize. The fact that the entire Old Testament was--in their supposed belief system--rendered void by the new covenant that is the New Testament is something they don't seem to understand. Which is amazing to me, but what do I know, I was raised an Episcopalian, who at least have a long tradition of scholarly thought. Anyhoo, the fundies think that "babies" or fetuses are innocent, so we shouldn't kill them, but once they're born and cry and are all naughty and stuff it's fine to deny them services. Or else that's the taint of the parents being visited on the children, for the sin of being poor or having sex (which led to said baby) or whatever. I think I have a headache now!

  •  is she anti - war? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chun Yang, LadyMiseryAli

    anti death penalty?  how does she feel about george zimmerman haven taken a life?  

    how does she feel about medicine in general?  since god determines life and death, why bother to practice medicine at all?  you might be saving the life of a person  god intended to die.

    •  Why even bother living (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aunt Pat, qofdisks

      if its all bee predetermined by God and we have no free will at all.

      •  What is life anyway? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lilredhead, Diana in NoVa, qofdisks

        Consciousness? The Universe? Are there multiverses?

        Daniel Dennett argues in one of his books that determinism implies free well, although he had to redefine determinism as near as I can tell. Other atheists as near as I can tell believe in determinism in the strict sense - you are what your genes make you.  Ayn Rand was an atheist. Dennett is an atheist, but he seems to believe is free will like some Christians (free well to choose good or evil).   Other Christians, mainly the Calvinists, believe as you say, that all is predestined and you were marked for heaven or hell when you were born.  In other words it is very hard to characterize humans.  Most of us are pretty weird and capable of believing two or more contradictory ideas at the same time, as well as some impossible things. Don't even get me started on Jains, Buddhists, Muslims, Shintos, Jews, Animists, Parsees, Pagans, Sikhs, Hindus, etc.

        I'm happy with not knowing the answer to life and the universe, although I am open to empirical data.  I am still not sure that even with our magnificent brain that we are capable of understanding ultimate reality, as J. B. S. Haldane implied about the human brain (Haldane was an atheist.)  If anything I think the universe may be indeterminate and chaotic.  Just look at Congress as an empirical example!  

  •  How does (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chun Yang, LadyMiseryAli

    she feel about comprehensive sex education and free and easy access to birth control?  That is one way to prevent the need for an abortion?  These anti-choice people don't understand that concept.  

    Really - don't want to be pregnant then don't have sex.

    She seems to be nice woman - family values - sex within marriage only - but if she knew anything about history -

    as we say in the south 'Bless Her Heart'.

    Why do Republicans Hate Americans?

    by Caniac41 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:06:55 AM PDT

  •  The thing is, there is no thought (0+ / 0-)

    As to the maiming and deaths of the girls/women who are forced to give birth or seek out unsafe abortions.

    She wants to punish girls/women for not acting like she thinks they should.

    Oh, and about the science: the egg and sperm are already living. Life began long ago, conception just continues that specific kind of life.

    Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 11:14:53 AM PDT

  •  You have an excellent interview style. (13+ / 0-)

    Look how much she was willing to say to you!

  •  Great job of talking to her. (9+ / 0-)

    She's fairly articulate and convinced. It's important we don't argue with "straw-man" stereotypes and caricatures here.
    The primary and most important fallacy of her argument is that it is totally predicated on her religious faith and a narrow reading of the Bible, etc.

    This is why ultimately the religious right will succeed or fail on whether they impose an authoritarian regime in this country.

    This is also why the gop, which hitched its wagon to the religious right's star long ago, are working feverishly against the clock to that end.

    This is where we must win. All the other stuff depends on it.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:15:46 PM PDT

  •  I think she thinks she speaks for God.... (4+ / 0-)

    but I wish she would let him/her/it speak for his/her/itself.    that is the problem with religion mixing with is ideology...not god speaking. eh?

    Of course there is the whole other debate on existence of such an entity and its makeup if it does exist.

    Dollarocracy is not Democracy

    by leema on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:17:33 PM PDT

    •  That is why a winning argument is that women are (0+ / 0-)

      bestowed with the divine power over choosing life or death fro their conceptions.  It takes into account faith, belief or superstition of most people that require magical thinking to cope with this cruel existence.

  •  snarkamunda: she must be 100% (10+ / 0-)

    for the ACA and for fully supporting complete medical coverage, food security, and decent housing for all pregnant Americans, all children, and all adults with disabilities.

    Certainly she must be a protester at prisons in Texas where executions occur. It's ironic, an incarcerated woman around her age was put to death on the same day Wendy Davis made her heroic stand.

    She must certainly support seeking out and convicting of rape anyone who gets a girl under 18 years pregnant. No child of 12 "wants it" and a pregnant 12 year old was most certainly raped.

    There are women like this in my neighborhood, and I just can't talk to them. There is simply no point. Sorry if I am not being a "good Christian," but hey, I'm not a Christian.

    "The will must be stronger than the skill." M. Ali

    by awhitestl on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:23:08 PM PDT

  •  It would seem to me (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aunt Pat, VTelder

    that if Obamacare was truly the train wreck that the Republicans keep claiming it will be, wouldn't it make more sense for the GOP to let it be implemented in full and THEN say, "see, we told you it wouldn't work."

    It would seem that having Obamacare fail would actually be the gift that keeps on giving for GOP since it would genuinely damage the Democrat brand.

    I wonder if the GOP is legitimately concerned about the success of Obamacare (hence their attempts to defund it, repeal it, etc...) or if they are just grandstanding for the plausible deniability.

  •  She is an idiot. (13+ / 0-)

    She's obviously incapable of independent thought, merely parroting her ideology.

    Furthermore, she is not a nice person.

    Nice people don't pass laws to kill people they disagree with.

    She is a murderous fool wrapped in a veneer of politeness.

    "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

    by nosleep4u on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:26:58 PM PDT

  •  She'd make a great dictator. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    karma5230, Aunt Pat

    Glottal fricative and breathy-voiced mid-low central unrounded vowel, repeated.

    by glb3 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:30:05 PM PDT

  •  Of course a fertilized egg is life (6+ / 0-)

    it is even a human. The question is, is a zygote the moral equivalent of a mother? If it is, as I believe she would say it is, then we must relegate all family matters to the court and give protective custody to the state where ever there is concern for the welfare of the zygote/fetus/whatever. Is the mom a smoker? A drinker etc etc.

    Or -

    we can leave the decision to the mother. Because any sane person understands that a zygote is not the same as the mother once you get past the DNA level..

    -7.5 -7.28, A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond.-Don Van Vliet

    by Blueslide on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:30:14 PM PDT

    •  The comparison can be made that a zygote is like (0+ / 0-)

      the seedling but, the woman is the fruit bearing tree.
      That is why I go with the metaphor taken from nature and agriculture.  We are after all, natural beings.  Western religion seeks to put humanity and God above or beyond nature.  This is the lie of denigrating the feminine, reproduction, sexuality as somehow base or beneath Godliness.  This falseness will undermine the very survival of our species as we continue to ravage this planet.

  •  Texas is so full of crap. They aren't overturning (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aunt Pat, Lilredhead, tuesdayschilde

    Roe V. Wade. All of these laws are being passed in the name of "Public Health". If you read the bills and follow the stated logic behind them, there isn't anything about life beginning at conception.

    They know that if they talk about what they really want.... not just overturning Roe V. Wade, but going further to criminalize of abortion (and possibly contraception), they would be laughed out of the "room".

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

    by CTMET on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:34:34 PM PDT

  •  Major Slut shaming going on here... (14+ / 0-)

    It is not for her to decide who should have sex and for what reasons.  Behind that smile is a judgmental hater. She let the real agenda out when spewing the "Don't Have Sex" and "One Man One Woman" bullcrap. This is a big part of the motivation for prudish types to get into this Anti-choice Movement. Saving "babies" is a bonus. Truly scary and must be stopped.

    Keep Your Party Outta My Pants.

    by Storey on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:38:56 PM PDT

  •  This is the abortion debate in a nutshell (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aunt Pat

    until we can get the vast majority of women to understand that if they truly believe that the church is pointing them in the right direction that's fine but they should impose their will or beliefs on others. Until we can get over that hurdle we are stuck.

    This country has been struck in the mud for over 30 years.

    Be involved!

    by ecthompson on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:45:56 PM PDT

    •  The Liberal churches need to change the narrative (0+ / 0-)

      so that it bleeds over to conservatism that of the divine righteousness of controlling one's reproduction by any means.  WE need to change the religious narrative concerning reproductive planing and control.  It requires a feminine cultural moral norm.

  •  Chances are that she has no idea (7+ / 0-)

    that biblical originals were not written in English.

    Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as shall never be put out.

    by Bollox Ref on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:47:12 PM PDT

  •  I'm sick of these Jesus freaks (9+ / 0-)

    My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

    by JLFinch on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:54:40 PM PDT

  •  This is why we can't have nice things. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glitterlust, Storey, Mindtrain, irmaly

    And why I'm still skeptical that all these anti-woman measures Republicans are pushing in many states will have that much of a backlash.  Maybe for statewide officials in some states.  Maybe.

    But thanks to the precise gerrymandering they engineered in 2010, the women who live in those districts we need to take back in order to regain control of state legislatures and the like?  Guess what?  They think like that woman Lori in the video above.

    So don't tell me you're confident there will be a backlash.  Go out there with boots on the ground and prove it.  Show me how many women you got to newly register to vote in those states controlled by the GOP.  Show me how many of them you were able to persuade to donate a bit of time and/or money to elect their local Democratic candidate to office.

    We need action NOW, or else 2014 will change nothing.

  •  If I were a smart young woman (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    latts, tuesdayschilde, Buckeye54

    I'd leave Texas by applying for college out-of-state and then never return.  

    It's the planet, stupids!

    by tsunami on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:25:09 PM PDT

  •  When Texas eventually outlaws abortion,... (0+ / 0-)

    and makes it felony murder, what will the fate of women be who have an abortion in this state with its execution fetish?

    Glottal fricative and breathy-voiced mid-low central unrounded vowel, repeated.

    by glb3 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:03:27 PM PDT

    •  Moving is not an option for those with (0+ / 0-)

      geographical, familial and cultural loyalty.  It is a corporate cultural norm for people to move around and away from each other, their geographical roots and culture.  Divide and conquer.
      Why Liberals keep proposing moving away as some sort of solution, especially in this crowded world, is ironic.

  •  God gives life... (0+ / 0-)

    somewhere between the 12th and 16th day of a woman's cycle; He's not that precise of a God.

    Glottal fricative and breathy-voiced mid-low central unrounded vowel, repeated.

    by glb3 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:14:27 PM PDT

  •  I wonder if she realizes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    that men who respected family values in every way she described that concept, imposed the death penalty, approved torture other fully formed humans and started a war on a whim that resulted in the deaths of over 100,000 innocent civilians? Those are the men who share her respect for life.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:22:48 PM PDT

  •  She's blinded by her faith (5+ / 0-)

    "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex."
    Nobody's ever raped.
    Nobody's ever subjected to incest.

    You know what, Lorrie? I reject your "reality" and your "science" and your "religion" and your "Bible."

    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

    by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:31:21 PM PDT

    •  I don't understand her "logic". (6+ / 0-)

      So a married couple should have sex only once a year? And then when they have, say, two kids and are happy with that family size, they should never have sex again? Maybe that works for her, but if so she's pretty much in a different solar system than the rest of us.

    •  Rather than reject her faith, we need to (0+ / 0-)

      incorporate faith and the take the divinely righteous stand that is pro-choice and reproductive control.
      It women refused to breed sans optimal circumstance, societal policies would be more humanitarian.  Laws and customs would be oriented toward taking care of ourselves and each other rather than exploiting ourselves for profit.  This is moral.

      •  I refuse to acknowledge the primacy of a "God" (0+ / 0-)

        that doesn't believe I have as much right to exist as a man.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 05:10:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Old saying: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buffie, tuesdayschilde, emal

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

    "The universe is made of stories, not atoms." -Muriel Rukeyser

    by tubacat on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:49:05 PM PDT

  •  Yes, But Is She a Vegan? (0+ / 0-)

    Because "life" begins at conception.

  •  It's Nice She Has an Opinion (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But what makes it a political issue is because there's money in it.

    As a political issue, it's intended to get people who work for a living to vote for Republicans. If you work for a living and you vote for someone because they oppose abortions then you've been snookered.

  •  And, She Isn't Being Christian! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I hate to make that value judgment, but just because she says this comes from the Bible doesn't mean that it's Christian.

    In abbreviated form you know someone's a Christian by their love. How is it loving to prevent women who need abortions from getting them?

    I'm a Christian and I do not cede any of it to the people who are anti-abortion. If you look at Christ's teachings they are about love. Whenever Jesus was confronted by the "Pharisees" (the right-winger of his day) he always refuted their interpretation of scripture by bringing the level of discourse up a notch. And he did that by interpreting the law from a more loving (a more human, in many respects) point of view.

    These people seek to take away the discretion of the woman and the professionals she depends on. In any given situation it may be right or wrong to have an abortion, but I guarantee the person in the best position to make that choice is the woman who needs it. Hemming in her options takes away the choice.

    Love requires choice. Love requires us to step back from the shoulds, look at the situation, and choose that which is good. Without choice there is no love.

    This is the crux of why the Republican position is so sterile and futile. It isn't loving. In a way I think their position on abortion was chosen to make them seem a little more human (because the rest of it is all about war and the death penalty). "Oh, look! We're protecting the tender baby!" But the problem is that it ends up attacking literally half the population. So, instead of softening their image it makes them seem all the more cruel.

    And it sweeps up what would otherwise be sweet people like Lori in the process.

    •  Historically, Christianity has nothing to do with (0+ / 0-)

      "love" as you know it.  The religion has a dark history of possessive, controlling pathological love of God for bleating sheep that must be led and fed and protected.  That "love" included killing, tormenting, dis-empowering culturalcide for the people's own good.
      It is a necromancer's mode of salvation involving human sacrifice and cannibalism.
      If you think Christianity is about "love" as understood in sappy movies, your dogma is a lie.

      •  Why Let Them Capture Christianity? (0+ / 0-)

        I'm not giving them the religion. If your religious zealot is telling you that the Bible says not to have an abortion, then that's just wrong on the facts, and you need to get a new guru. Obviously, Lori hasn't gotten into the details.

        Besides, you aren't thinking of Christianity. You're thinking of political leaders using Christianity for what they want to do. It's not the same thing. None of the things you cited is loving, so therefore they aren't Christian.

        BTW, love isn't sappy. Not when it's done right.

  •  I don't think she is having sex (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tuesdayschilde, Buckeye54, qofdisks

    nor is she probably able to get pregnant at this point.

    So, no skin off her back.

  •  This is really about Christianity and Patriarchy (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buffie, tuesdayschilde, Danali, karma5230

    this woman has been brainwashed, to use an old fashioned term, by her religion and by her immediate social world. She has no idea that these ideas she so strongly identifies with come at her own expense. (In fact, her family and social obligations from an early age likely imposed this perspective on her: she has to think this way in order to "live" in that world.) I strongly suspect this is simply "how she was raised." The chances of her, and of other women in the same situation, getting out of this is next to none. We should have endless empathy for her.

     And, clearly, we need a second feminist/sexual cultural revolution.

    •  Christianity has nothing to do with reproductive (0+ / 0-)

      health or choice.  The Bible doesn't really address it because it is not written by women.
      Christianity is solely about God sacrificing his son for the forgiveness of "sin".  
      Reproductive health and choice is not specified as sin but, sexual promiscuity is.  
      We on the left have to culturally disconnect the notion of promiscuity with reproductive health and knowledge.

  •  something you won't find in the Bible (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE, qofdisks

    One thing you will find no mention of in the Bible is the right to bear arms.  That may or may not be have anyhing to do with the fact that in Biblical times, guns hadn't been invented yet.

  •  My personal belief (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    karma5230, qofdisks

    is that any thoughts/actions originate from one of two places: love or fear.

    Unfortunately, so many people are indoctrinated into and don't see the contradictions of "God is all-powerful and all-loving - unless you do something He doesn't want you to do, in which case He will torture and punish you forever and withhold his love." Does that sound like love? It sounds like humans projecting onto God.

    Too many people believe what they were told rather than finding their own truths; they end up as automatons.

    Why do the Duggars have so many children? Did God not give them any sort of restraint? They may say "Oh, this is so great, God has blessed us with so many children." Well, no, sex has given you so many children. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.

    It seems a lot of people interpret "faith" as "I'm not in control of my life, God is." But to me, that's not faith, that's delusion. I believe in God, but I don't get it from a book. The simple fact that there are so many different religions and different approaches indicates that maybe too many people are being influenced by what humans are throwing into it.

  •  Judgemental audiences of "Jerry Springer women" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    like to look down on others and think of themselves as morally-superior to those suffering thru a troubling issue.  

    Anti-Choice women (and men) of the War On Women Lobby take this to another level by invoking a Bible that they don't understand as their weapon of absolute moral authority.

    It's telling that these egg advocates have no interest in supporting nutritional assistance to actual children, or even to pre-born babies in the womb.  They pretend to have intense "moral" fire for fictional babies, but work against the needs of living babies as well as against the equal rights of women.  

    Abortion decisions are complicated and should only be made by a woman and her doctor, not by snotty self-appointed "morally-superior" Know-nothings.   If I wanted to take a turn at being judgmental, I would say that these auntie-American hypocrites are among the most immoral and least Christian of our citizens.

    •  Abortion decisions are not so complicated if (0+ / 0-)

      informed women (and men) make the decisions ahead of conception.  Men need to discuss reproductive planning with their prospective lovers and mate(s) before engaging in sexual relations.  Women need to have a plan and decide ahead of sexual relations (wanted or not) what she would do to control her reproduction.
      Call it mindful fucking.

  •  Applaud the diary but respectfully disagree with (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, qofdisks


    there will be a new day in the country’s body politic as women assert their power.
    WHAT bloody power? I'm volunteering for a prochoice woman who is a candidate for this fall's election.  She wants to be my legislator.  The Virginia legislature is composed mostly of MEN.

    She has to raise an inordinate amount of money for this low-level legislative job! Our system is so corrupted by the need to raise cash, cash, cash, that no ordinary citizen, especially a female citizen, is going to be able to run and be elected.

    If there were a LAW that election campaigns are limited to four weeks before an election (for national) and three weeks (for state) and that all TV advertising should be FREE, perhaps ordinary citizens would have a chance to be elected and impose a little sanity on state and national government.

    Or we should have instant runoff voting.  Whatever.  All I know is that I don't feel that I have any "power."  Yeah, I donate, I vote, and I preach to my family, who are too busy earning a living to pay attention to politics.  But that's not "power."

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 06:57:12 AM PDT

  •  If God is perfect (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, qofdisks

    and abortion is legal, what's the problem?

    "Onward through the fog!" - Oat Willie

    by rocksout on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 07:13:32 AM PDT

  •  There is no God but man (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    and the soul is a myth. We are animals  and while we cherish the life we have and were given by our progenitors we must not yield to the naivety of the man of magic and superstition. The choice to carry a life rests in the will of the woman. Choice in these matters is more important than life  and the "soul" is of no consequence since id is not real but a fiction made up by wishful thinking. Less children are better for the ecology of the planet so I think we should be looking at more abortion and not less. Just my opinion.

    "We need a revolution away from the plutocracy that runs Government."

    by hangingchad on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 07:35:22 AM PDT

    •  Agreed. Humanity is not above nature. (0+ / 0-)

      That said, we need to use human nature to desire and believe in God to further the cause of reproductive control.
      Any species that does not cull degenerates and starves.  With our intellect, we have the ability to safely cull before birth.  
      What happens if there is too many buds on the tree?  The fruit will be hard, small and sour.  It you nip the buds, the fruit that remains will be succulent, large and sweet.  Same goes for the quality of life for human beings.  We are not above the fundamental laws of nature.

  •  Well, I do not think the guy advocated the pro- (0+ / 0-)

    choice stand very well.  Just how is pro-choice actually pro-life?
    The old tired, losing and incorrect argument that the fetus is not really a human just gets shot down by empirical evidence of the pregnant woman and the science of fetal imaging.
    No argument is made on behalf of say, the divine or even the divinely granted feminine  power to choose life or death.

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