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In the days leading up to the shutdown, few believed the government would actually shutdown. The conventional wisdom was that Boehner would quietly bring the Senate bill to the floor, probably late at night with no publicity. That didn't happen. Now, the CW is that Republicans may hold out for a few more days or weeks but that eventually, they'll succumb to pressure from their constituents and their corporate sponsors and pass a clean funding bill. So far, pundits have been wrong on this and I think it's because they still view Republicans as normal politicians and it is obvious to me that they are not. The party has been fully hijacked by ideologues who could care less about winning their next election and who's only purpose now is to ruin Obama's presidency by any mean possible. Why should we have any expectation that they'll give in ever? Boehner certainly has made his calculation that he has a better chance of keeping his job as Speaker by allowing the shutdown to happen. And I truly believe that he'd rather take his chance that the shutdown doesn't cost the GOP the majority in the House than risk a revolt by passing a clean CR with Democratic support. Plus, I think he wouldn't be all that upset if a bunch of these Tea Party "Patriots" were to loose their seats next year, they have made his life a living hell since 2010. I just don't see Republicans caving without at lease one concession from Obama and the Senate. It may end up being something fairly trivial compared to a complete defunding of the ACA but these guys will not give in without at least some form of cover. So where does it go from here? Unless Obama and the Senate give them cover, I can see this shutdown lasting through at least Thanksgiving, maybe even to the end of the year. Couple that with the debt ceiling and we could be looking at a really dangerous situation. I hope I'm wrong but so far there I just don't see anyway the GOP will cave in completely. Obama and the Senate? Hard to say but I think that Obama is in no mood to repeat his mistake of negotiating on the debt ceiling no matter what damage is done to the economy.

Poll

How and when will the shutdown end?

16%13 votes
2%2 votes
26%21 votes
13%11 votes
5%4 votes
10%8 votes
25%20 votes

| 79 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (7+ / 0-)

    Let's not let 2014 be anything like 2010. Republicans only win when we stay home!

    by Tim D M on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:35:16 PM PDT

  •  Final resolution won't come until 2014 elections (6+ / 0-)

    of House Members. Every seat is up for grabs, folks.

  •  Look, if the Republicans are suicidal and intend (8+ / 0-)

    crash the global economy, then there is nothing that can be done to stop them (they have the constitutional authority).  We can't pay enough ransom (or at least our quality of life will suck either way, so there's no incentive for Democrats to give in).  That die was cast when the country turned the House of Representatives over to the Tea Party.  So let's see 'em gentlemen.

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:45:20 PM PDT

    •  That's Homicidal and We Already Know By (4+ / 0-)

      the statistics of programs they cut or diminish that they do kill people.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:49:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, that's not quite how the endgame would (6+ / 0-)

      play out.

      The real squeeze will come on October 14th 11:45 PM, when the House passes the debt ceiling hike plus a repeal of the medical device tax. And then at 11:55 PM if the bill arrives on Obama's desk and he has to choose which dotted line to sign.

      I can only hope he realizes that, if it comes to this, a whole lot more than one little revenue source for Obamacare will be at stake. It'll be about whether America now has a government controlled entirely by whichever side is more sociopathic. The aftershocks of that decision would last even longer than those from a default.

      Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
      Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
      Code Monkey like you!

      Formerly known as Jyrinx.

      by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:57:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where is the Senate in that scenario? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Code Monkey

        I suspect that this brinksmanship can go on beyond 12:00AM without any additional damage being done.  In any event, prepare for a late night on Oct 14th.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:11:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Between 11:45 and 11:55 :-) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lordcopper

          At any rate, yes, this is sorta the Aaron-Sorkin-writes-for-24 version of the scenario. But they can't put it off forever; at some point there will be a default (or a panic as everyone dumps T-bills expecting a default). Hence there will be a moment of truth. And the Senate will have the same question before them — will they be willing to default?

          Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
          Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
          Code Monkey like you!

          Formerly known as Jyrinx.

          by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:15:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But including the Senate in the equation makes it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Code Monkey

            riskier bet for House Republicans.  Especially with a preemptive declaration by Harry Reid, who's near the end of the line.

            I've found myself in similar scenarios in the past (business not govt), and I've always had several courses of action on tap that could be executed in short order.  Let's say the House sends a resolution to the Senate and Reid tables it, replaces it with favorable language, and sends it back to the House.  It would be the proverbial "hot potato".

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:25:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hmm, maybe. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lordcopper

              And I suppose if it's not actually a ticking time bomb, Reid can keep up the ping-pong as long as it takes.

              Okay, suddenly I like the game theory of this a lot better :-)

              Still. I hope there is a solid plan that doesn't depend on Boehner blinking first. If he's the only one willing to see the nation default (and Obama sticks by his statements that he can't avoid the default by executive action), he wins.

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:29:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The problem for the Republicans is twofold. 1st (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Code Monkey

                they have to make it through the next 13 days (the pain will be excruciating and their coalition is already splintering).  2nd, they then have to have the stones to attempt the coup de grace, knowing that it could be easily denied with a simple legislative maneuver (this is one area where the Senate Leadership exercises greater control than the House) and they're right back on the spot again.   I don't think the rank and file has the stomach for it.

                Master Sun says:

                "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

                and

                "Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."

                In this case, the GOP ran headlong into this fight emotionally.  I think they're screwed, and the longer they they fight, the worse it gets.

                "Because I am a river to my people."

                by lordcopper on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:47:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Jeez. That dude's quotes always seem to me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lordcopper

                  to boil down to “if you're reading these words and you haven't already won, you've lost.”

                  Makes me wonder how anyone actually uses his advice to win anything :-)

                  Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
                  Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
                  Code Monkey like you!

                  Formerly known as Jyrinx.

                  by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:50:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think his quotes, as arrogant as they seem, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Code Monkey, librarisingnsf

                    stress the need for humility and prudence, which are qualities we all can benefit from.

                    "Because I am a river to my people."

                    by lordcopper on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:55:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, certainly. I have to appreciate a war guy (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lordcopper

                      stressing possibilities that include less fighting (i.e. the best conquest is one where you didn't have to shed any blood, or whatever better way he put it).

                      Still. Can't help but imagine that a general in the middle of a battle that's gone on a while would turn to him for advice and he would say “What, you're actually fighting? You're fucked; just go home.” At least his most famous quotes (I'm sure publication bias is an issue here) seem to apply only in the best-case scenario …

                      Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
                      Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
                      Code Monkey like you!

                      Formerly known as Jyrinx.

                      by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:59:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Your assuming Republicans can feel pain (0+ / 0-)
            •  Can Reid do that so quickly? (0+ / 0-)
              Let's say the House sends a resolution to the Senate and Reid tables it, replaces it with favorable language, and sends it back to the House.
              I'm pretty sure Senate Republicans could block amendments for at least a while.
  •  The Speaker has one more card to play (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Code Monkey, Gooserock, flatford39

    No debt ceiling increase before October 15th. He will definitely play that card. It's a card with much more leverage because the Obama administration will have several difficult choices regarding maturing Treasury securities and interest on the federal debt. I do not believe the President, Treasury Secretary, and Fed Chairman will allow a default on US Treasury securities regardless Congressional action, or lack of a debt increase agreement. However, the actions needed to rollover the maturing securities and pay the interest will be challenging.

    I think a deal will be struck by 10/15, but in my opinion the Speaker is ready to let that deadline pass if the Dems don't throw him a bone. The bone doesn't need to be related to the ACA.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:46:23 PM PDT

    •  You're right, that's the endgame. (6+ / 0-)

      But I hope Obama is willing to default. If he gives them anything — anything — this becomes the new normal way to get legislation passed. He should veto any debt ceiling hike whatsoever, at any time, that gives them any reward at all. Not one damn iota.

      Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
      Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
      Code Monkey like you!

      Formerly known as Jyrinx.

      by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:51:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CM - the President won't allow a default (4+ / 0-)

        I just don't believe President Obama and Treasury Secretary Lew will ever want to be remembered as the first executive team that allowed the US to default on its securities. I just don't believe it will happen regardless of what Congress doesn't pass. And if the President can show the GOP that the government can continue to prevent default he takes the Speaker's last cards off the table.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:58:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Problem with that: (5+ / 0-)

          He has said before that he does not have the power to prevent default unilaterally. Thus he has already delegitimized any 14th Amendment solution he might take.

          Now, he might decide he was wrong and do what he has to do. But can you imagine what the impeachment talk will be like? It was bad enough when they didn't have anything to impeach him for. Just wait'll he exceeds his authority by his own standards (not even the standards of Senator Obama).

          Maybe that's his best contingency plan: Take executive action to nullify the debt limit. I'd be okay with it. He'd just better have a contingency plan besides “they can't actually be THAT crazy.” Playing chicken with Boehner is not a plan.

          Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
          Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
          Code Monkey like you!

          Formerly known as Jyrinx.

          by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:04:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Would the Federal Reserve close? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Code Monkey

            If banks can't borrow overnight funds...........wow.

            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

            by BrianParker14 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:28:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  *shrug* Dunno. (0+ / 0-)

              I understand that there could be dire consequences just from letting T-bills falter, since they're generally considered safer than any cash. (CTTOI, they've been what goldbugs think gold is …) So there'd be a sudden panic in what's long been the world's safest investment.

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:40:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Brian - the Fed does not receive any gov't funding (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Code Monkey

              The Fed is independent and self funding. None of these actions are going to impact Fed operations.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:01:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  CM - I think the President and Treasury Sec (0+ / 0-)

            will take a small portion of the cash flow and pay the interest. The bonds can be rolled over with help from the Fed to create one-day transactions. I think paying the interest is  the least troublesome constitutionally. There will be no impeachment talk for averting default.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:06:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So the rethugs in the house.......... (3+ / 0-)

            impeach; so what? They don't have 2/3rds of the Senate to get a conviction.  Just another self-inflicted wound to the GOP.

            In addition, it stands to reason that at some point the question of Presidential authority under the 14th amendment would have to end up before the SCOTUS. They are the arbitrators of whether on not the actions of the POTUS are constitutional; not BHO, the media, the Rethugs or Kossaks.

            However, the POTUS would have to act first; before a party would have standing to start the court proceedings.  Given that Roberts in the pocket of Wall Street and big business and a default would most likely be bad for business; we may be pleasantly surprised (as we were with the ACA) by how the SCOTUS would come down on the question.

            The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

            by cazcee on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:33:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If Obama is willing to face their wrath, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              librarisingnsf

              I say he should absolutely risk impeachment hearings rather than default or give in.

              Still. Obama weakened his hand by disclaiming 14th Amendment authority. It won't look good if he turns around and exercises it anyway. And it'll look bad to sensible people, not just the Gohmerts of the world.

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 09:03:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Has he also explicity delegitimized the "jumbo (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Code Monkey

            coin" loophole as well?  Because that would be another way to do it that is permitted by the letter of the law even though it was never intended to be used that way.

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 12:07:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I believe so, yeah. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Throw The Bums Out

              I doesn't actually have to be jumbo or any particular size, BTW … the President basically just has to wave his magic executive wand, and it has whatever value he wants to have.

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 12:32:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well the "jumbo" refers to the face value of the (0+ / 0-)

                coin, not it's physical size.  It's not quite as easy as waving a magic wand as the value (at least $1 trillion) has to be stamped on the coin itself but that is relatively easy to have them do.  So has Obama said anything about that option since it would be explicitly legal and thus harder to challenge than the 14th amendment option?

                You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 01:09:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Are you serious? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          costello7, librarisingnsf

          What you are saying, by extension, is that either chamber of congress can threaten to blow up the government (and the world economy) and get its way.

          That's ludicrous. And no way will the president do it. He will let default happen if it comes to that. Or else this will be the norm forevermore.

          •  The President will never allow default on (0+ / 0-)

            his watch. I just don't believe it. See my other comments in this thread.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:08:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It would be a difficult choice, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Berkeley Fred

              certainly, but the way I see it, it comes down to:

              1) Default - Very bad in the short to intermediate term
              2) Hostage Concession - Very bad in the short, intermediate, AND long term

              #1 is the smarter route for the country. And based on all he's said, I think the president believes that, too.

              And actually, the more forcefully he believes it, and the more forcefully he conveys that belief, the less likely either option is to happen.

              •  The default has the potential to be catastrophic (0+ / 0-)

                and President Obama won't let it happen on his watch. I just don't believe it.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:31:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Giving in to extortion (0+ / 0-)

                  would be worse. It would mean that any irresponsible actors in congress could threaten default, for almost any reason, at almost any time, and expect a president to cave to their demands. It would significantly weaken our creditworthiness because investors would require a significant premium to invest their money in our debt, as it would be considered volatile and unstable.

        •  You are already blaming the President if (0+ / 0-)

          Default occurs?  I guess the Republicans will get the credit no matter what happens.  If Obama relents Republicans win, if Obama doesn't capitulate he will be blamed.  

          If this is how most Americans think then Republicans can do anything they want and remain free of any responsibility.

          Perhaps Republicans are acting under the presumption that the first African American President is susceptible to racial blackmail.  If he succumbs to Republican demands he will be a sell out proving that African Americans aren't trustworthy, if he sticks to his principles he will be the first US President to allow America to default on its debt.  And he just happened to be African American.

          The only way out of this situation for President Obama is for every American who voted for him to maintain their loyalty and push back against the lies and misdirections being propagated by the opposition.

          •  The term default has many meetings (0+ / 0-)

            If Congress will not pass a debt ceiling increase there is still enough cash flow to pay about 70% of the bills. So not everything will be paid but one of the things that will definitely be paid is the interest on Treasury securities and all maturing Treasury obligations will be redeemed on a timely basis. That will avert "default" as defined by the worldwide financial markets and that's the definition I am using. The President will make sure those obligations are met. The inability of the government to pay all its bills is clearly the fault of the Republicans and to some people that's also a default. We just need to be certain we all mean the same thing when we talk about what is a "default".

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 11:19:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You think default refers to financial obligations (0+ / 0-)

              Only?  I guess that's why so many Republicans allowed the government to shut down.  

              •  arlandbee - I think I made it clear in my comment (0+ / 0-)

                that default has many meanings. When the President talks about default he means primarily Treasury securities because it's that default that would shake the worldwide capital markets. If the US is late paying some employees and bills that will be terrible, but it won't shake the global financial system.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:58:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't bet on that. (0+ / 0-)

          The House GOP has been very vocal in supporting prioritization, to the point of passing legislation explicitly permitting Treasury to do what you propose.  That doesn't take away Boehner's last cards; it's giving him precisely what his caucus wants.

          The Republicans simply don't think that any of the other obligations incurred through lawful budgeting matter a bit.  Aside from debt servicing, they think the debt limit is simply an additional step in the authorization and appropriation process.

    •  I Think There is Less Than No Chance to the Power (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Thomas Twinnings, VClib, Code Monkey

      of minus 1 google that the ACA was ever what they were expecting to be sacrificed.

      It's never been anything in this issue other than the shiny object to flash before the media and voters.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:52:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No way (3+ / 0-)

      The president knows the stakes, but he also knows that any buckling on his part means that the debt ceiling would now subject to hostage-taking for decades if not longer.

  •  I think there's no way out for them (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Thomas Twinnings, flatford39

    they cant give in, they've gone too far.

    So I do think this is going to be a long haul because at this point, I can't see them capitulating in the next couple of weeks, and even after, I could even see them raise the debt limit but not open the government.

    •  I do think they will become desperate enough (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      costello7, librarisingnsf

      to except very minimal concession from Obama and the Senate but even that would just embolden them to do this again next time the government needs to get funded. The hard truth is that for the very existence of a functional democracy to continue, we may have to go through a short to medium length recession that will hopefully motivate enough people to vote against the GOP to retake the House despite the long odds. If Democrats concede one cm of ground, the prospects of taking the House go to zilch. Unfortunately, the right decision for the long term of our country will hurt millions of people in the short term.

      Let's not let 2014 be anything like 2010. Republicans only win when we stay home!

      by Tim D M on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:11:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think we have to face the possibility (13+ / 0-)

    not as Democrats, but as Americans, that the GOP's HillBilly Hamas caucus, the Teahadi Jihadi, might actually default on the debt ceiling.

    I can see the experts predicting right up until the blow up the economy that it cannot happen. Until the do it.

    I live in Southern Nevada. I sometimes travel to rural parts of the state. They think they are winning. They think they are the good guys, and, worse, they think they are on solid economic ground.

    I have had conversations with Teahadi in the last few days where they have told me that defaulting on the debt ceiling will lead to a GOP landslide in 2014 and 2016. They are fucking nuts.

    They simply do not believe in elite expertise or authority.

    A person with a PhD in economics is suspect by sheer weight of that person knowing what the fuck they are talking about.

    Unless the President is willing to go the 14th Amendment route, or mint those massive platinum coins, we might have an economic crisis that is entirely self-inflicted and rapidly dire.

    I am a Loco-Foco. I am from the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party.

    by LeftHandedMan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:53:05 PM PDT

  •  It is a power grab, pure and simple. (5+ / 0-)

    The republican house wants to dictate policy, be it the ACA, or government spending on any number of programs.  They would like nothing better than to pass piecemeal funding measures so they get control.  The ACA would not, will not, be the only victim of the hostage-taking.

    An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

    by Thomas Twinnings on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 06:59:10 PM PDT

  •  They will not give in (5+ / 0-)

    All the talk here about this debacle being a "popcorn" moment has been ludicrous--absolutely no good will come of it. It's a hostage/terrorist situation pure and simple, courtesy of the GOP Taliban.

  •  Mint the platinum coin already. Do it Friday. (4+ / 0-)

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:05:10 PM PDT

  •  Cruz is a Koch puppet and w/DeMint wielding (0+ / 0-)

    Koch $'s.

    Threatening to primary everyone, the Koch's are getting Cruz' face out there and raising millions.

    After only two years in the Senate they bought DeMint and placed him in the role of a Koch political mob boss. Every mention of The Heritage Foundation or DeMint should carry the disclaimer they are Koch mouthpieces.

    If this isn't an orchestrated Kabuki to impose a Grand Bargain then this will break down into a battle between the Chamber of Commerce/Wall Street billionaires against the religious fanatic billionaires.

    A battle between heavyweights and the President will deliver/explain the results to us.

    It really is just a question of how much and to whom we lose this time.

    And we have no voice.

    "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

    by BrianParker14 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:43:04 PM PDT

  •  Use paragraphs. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Rivers are horses and kayaks are their saddles

    by River Rover on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 07:55:43 PM PDT

  •  You can not negotiate with terrorists. Ever. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Berkeley Fred

    There is a reason that is our official policy.  Once terrorists know they can blackmail you into concessions, you'll never be rid of the blackmail.  Obama's mistake was in ever negotiating with them in the first place.  This is his reward.

    If Obama gives them anything--anything--so little as going out and saying Boehner is an honorable man, he'll be destroying this country as certainly as would default.

    The clear answer, here (just as it was the last time, btw), is to declare Congress irrelevant and invoke the 14th Amendment.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.  Let the Rethugs impeach; that will just marginalize them completely and forever.

    If Obama chooses to eschew the Constitutional option then, in the end, the hostages may have to die.  I doubt he has the stones to let it happen, but that would be better for everyone than caving to terrorism.  It's kind of like the scene in "Fail-Safe" where Henry Fonda bombs one of our own cities to prevent an all-out nuclear war.  Tough call.  But the right one.  Default would be godawful--lots of suffering.  But the alternative is worse.

    As another choice, I personally favor having all these clowns arrested, sent to GITMO and, eventually, tried for treason.  Just sayin'.

    "Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will."—Frederick Douglass

    by costello7 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 08:54:30 PM PDT

  •  There's a quick and dirty solution (0+ / 0-)

    Social Security temporarily forgives $1 trillion owed to them by the rest of the government. The debt ceiling then drops by that $1 trillion.

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Wed Oct 02, 2013 at 11:29:59 PM PDT

  •  well (0+ / 0-)

    at the last minute.. there is "The Grand  Bargain" ...(c'mon we seniors could cut a little fat from what we spend with our SS)

    It is strange.. Many Republicans in the House were elected by folks who cheered and voted for them when they shouted ..

    "Shut it down!"  "Blow it up!"

    Although it will get painful.. and very weird...these same phrases will happen to the Republican Party..

    Change has little to do with right or wrong..change results from embarrassment. With each day there will be more Gop'ers who slide away, not because they realize they were wrong..
    But the fucking jeering..

    For the first time in awhile media is (for the same reason) moving away from "both sides do it"

    So my hum tune of the day is "Good Morning Starshine"

    Peace/Dance/Resist

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