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I just received the latest edition (Issue 22) of a monthly email newsletter from the National Rifle Association (NRA) called the NRA ARMED CITIZEN -- True stories of your right to self-defense in action.

The newsletter reported 14 incidents of individuals successfully using guns either at home, on the street, or in their place of business to thwart intruders, robbers, or burglars. The first of the incidents was dated August 30, 2013; the last one was dated October 9, 2013 -- a period of 41 days.

Unmentioned in the newsletter, however, was that during the same 41-day period, based on average numbers (source: www.bradycampaign.org), 3,444 Americans were killed by a gun (2,091 by suicide) and another 7,913 were wounded by one (410 by attempted suicide). That means for each “good” use of a gun during those 41 days, there were 811 “bad” uses of a gun.

Granted, the NRA might not have reported or been aware of all the “true stories of self-defense in action” that occurred during that 41-day period. Indeed, when I filed my report last month, it was suggested by a reader that it would be impractical for the NRA Armed Citizen newsletter to list all the “good” uses of a gun, although I’m not sure why.

After all, the NRA ARMED CITIZEN is an on-line newsletter, so they have unlimited space to list all the “good” uses of a gun they want. And they have a big staff and plenty of money, so it should be no big deal to assign someone the task of compiling such important information and get it into the newsletter each month. Plus, the N.R.A. states on its website that Americans use guns for self-defense as often as 2.5 million times a year.

That works out to over 200,000 “good” uses of a gun every month or 6,850 each day. So if that number is accurate, as they claim it is, they should have no problem compiling a mile-long list of “good” uses each month.

So here’s my suggestion for NRA members: Tell your organization you want the NRA ARMED CITIZEN newsletter to list all the confirmed “good” uses of a gun every month so that everyone can see how many there are compared to all those confirmed “bad” uses. If 200,000 “good” uses is too many for their staff to list, perhaps they can just list the top 100,000, or 50,000, or 10,000, or 1,000 or, say, maybe 250? Getting someone to list about 10 each day should be doable I’d think.

One more thing: Here are the monthly gun scores for the past two months:

August 2013
“Good” -- 17
“Bad” -- 9,418
Ratio: -- 1 “good” for every 554 “bad”

September 2013
“Good” -- 19
“Bad” -- 12,188
Ratio: -- 1 “good” for every 641 “bad”

Please help reduce this carnage. Call, write, email, or FAX your representatives in Washington, D.C. and tell them to support common sense gun control. Do it today. And do it again next week. And do it again every week after that until they get the message.

You’ll find contact information here:
www.contactingthecongress.org

Originally posted to Tom Begnal on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM PDT.

Also republished by Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA) and Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Because listing the billions and billions of'good' (10+ / 0-)

    uses would fill up the entire NRA ARMED CITIZEN and there simply aren't enough pixels to handle that. We need to preserve the old growth pixels.

    impractical for the NRA Armed Citizen newsletter to list all the “good” uses of a gun, although I’m not sure why.

    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

    by 88kathy on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:16:12 PM PDT

  •  are all of those (0+ / 0-)

    killed/wounded "bad" uses of a gun? Or are some of them police protecting themselves/us against criminals, of even individual citizens doingso?

    or are all uses of a gun "bad" by definition?

    •  You didn't read the diary, did you? (6+ / 0-)
      The newsletter reported 14 incidents of individuals successfully using guns either at home, on the street, or in their place of business to thwart intruders, robbers, or burglars. The first of the incidents was dated August 30, 2013; the last one was dated October 9, 2013 -- a period of 41 days.
      The diarist isn't disputing the classification of these 14 cases as justified uses of a firearm, so the answer to your question is no.
      or are all uses of a gun "bad" by definition?
      Nice try.
      •  i was referring to these uses (0+ / 0-)
        3,444 Americans were killed by a gun (2,091 by suicide) and another 7,913 were wounded by one (410 by attempted suicide).
        and trying to make the point that people being killed/wounded by guns is not necessarily a "bad" use of the gun.

        Just to go full Godwin...Hitler killed himself with a gun and i'd struggle to call that a bad use.

    •  More numbers to help explain my numbers (12+ / 0-)

      Every year in the U.S.A., on average: *

          -- Over 18,000 people kill themselves with a gun (51 each day)

          -- Almost 12,000 people are murdered by a gun (32 each day)

          -- Almost 600 people are accidentally shot and killed by a gun (1 each day)

          -- Over 51,000 people are shot and wounded in an attack involving a gun (140 each day)

          -- Over 16,000 people are accidentally shot and wounded by a gun (43 each day)

          -- Almost 4,000 people are wounded attempting to kill themselves with a gun (10 each day).

      Total killed by guns each year: Over 30,000 (84 each day)

      Total wounded by guns each year: Over 70,000 (193 each day)

      Total number of Americans either killed or wounded by guns each year: Over 100,000 (277 each day)

      * Brady Campaign (gun deaths from police intervention not included here)

      •  Compare these numbers to 9-11. (4+ / 0-)

        Total dead (not including the hijackers): 2,977 people.

        We started TWO wars over that day.

        We lose FOUR TIMES that many people every year to murders by gun.  In the 12 years since 9/11/01, that's 144,000 gun murders.  And nothing is done.

        If we include the 18,000 people who kill themselves with a gun every year (either intentionally or accidentally), that's an additional 216,000 people dead by guns since then.

        Put them together, and you have 360,000 people dead by guns since that day - 120 times the number of dead on 9/11/01.

        With numbers like these, Who fights gun control?  WHO?

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

        by Celtic Merlin on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 05:06:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, let's see . . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

      I read a story in the last week about a woman who called 911 to get medical assistance for her diabetic husband and the police showed up at their home and shot him.

      Good use or bad use? Your call.

      The nine most terrifying words in the english language . . . "I'm George Bush, we're here to liberate your country"

      by TiredOfGOPLies on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 01:13:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  LEO uses gun (0+ / 0-)

      Must ban guns from the public!!!!!111!!

      But LEO is exempt including retired LEO. ....

  •  There is no such thing as a good guy with a gun (9+ / 0-)

    In public.

    You're a menace to society.

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:23:43 PM PDT

    •  I do have to disagree with this. I do have (3+ / 0-)

      a concealed weapon permit, take NRA approved classes to improve not only my shooting ability, but classes that stress what not to do.  

      I am an Army Veteran, a responsible citizen, and am not a menace to society, even though I am armed when I'm outside my home.  

      "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

      by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:48:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Youre a menace to society, IMO nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Duckmg

        nosotros no somos estúpidos

        by a2nite on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:55:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sorry you feel this way. (2+ / 0-)

          I respect your opinion but don't agree with it.  

          I recently spoke with NRA instructors in Oregon who report that the number of people taking classes in preparation for concealed permits is skyrocketing.  They have never seen anything like this sudden surge in all their years of teaching.  

          In the small town where we live, no longer in California, 30% of the residents have concealed carry permits and approximately 90% of the homes have firearms inside their house.  

          Perhaps there is a different mindset living in rural environments instead of crowded urban areas.  I don't know???

          "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

          by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 01:06:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, there it is, I live in a suburb & guns & (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Duckmg

            Their owners are a menace to me.

            If you live in the country why do you need/want concealed carry? Because you can and you want to.

            Can't do a lot of hunting with a hand gun. Shot gun, rifle I can understand. I thought the country was safer, guess not because guns are more important than anyone's life liberty or pursuit of happiness.

            nosotros no somos estúpidos

            by a2nite on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 01:35:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't hunt..... (0+ / 0-)

              I have a handgun, concealed by clothing, when I'm outside walking around our property, as do many home owners---this is primarily about self defense for four-legged creatures.  Now, if after walking around I happen to get into our car for a trip to town I don't have to worry about illegally carrying a handgun or transporting a handgun in our car.  

              However, I do have rifles, even though I don't hunt.  My wife and I are target shooters and enjoy this hobby very much.  

              In fact, I have never hunted or fished in my life.  I appreciate the beauty of nature and have no desire to kill a beautiful animal for any reason---other than in self defense.  I have plenty of food without the need for hunting and don't want an animal's head or so called trophy on my wall.  

              "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

              by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 01:57:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, you DO hide your gun from others (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                coquiero, tytalus, Duckmg

                Taking away their ability to see it and know where it's pointing.

                I find that very rude. The least gun owners could do is to let others know where the guns are and where they are pointing, so they can at least get out of the line of fire.



                Women create the entire labor force.
                ---------------------------------------------
                Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:32:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  You can do a lot of hunting with a handgun. (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              sfcouple
              Hidden by:
              CwV

              Enough so that handgun hunting has its own hunting season.

              Perhaps the reason you feel 'menaced' is related to your ignorance of firearms.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 02:04:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The right to life, liberty and the (0+ / 0-)

              pursuit of happiness is important, as is my right to self defense.

              And you can do a lot of hunting with a handgun, there are many hunters who do exactly that.  Including hunting grizzly bears with a handgun.  

              Suppose you were in a Mall when someone was walking up to with a handgun threatening to kill you....would you prefer that the person next to you was armed or unarmed with a concealed weapon?  Or would you pull out your smart phone and dial 911?

              Me, I'd much rather the person next to me was armed.  

              In an ideal world, the hypothetical person walking up to you would not be carrying any weapon, but that is not going to happen----we don't and probably never will live in that kind of world.

              "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

              by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 03:33:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What nonsense! (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CwV, splashy, coquiero

                Having legal guns raises the chances of being threatened by a gun.

                •  I'm not so sure, (0+ / 0-)

                  many, but not necessarily all, recent mass shootings have occurred in so called 'gun free zones.'

                  Nonsense you write...what is nonsense about what I said?  It was noticed that you didn't answer my question about standing in a Mall when someone was approaching you with the intent of killing you. Well, I guess you did answer it by calling it nonsense.  But if your life was being threatened I can almost guarantee you would want someone nearby who was armed and was able to protect you.  

                  So you think it is nonsense for any law abiding citizen to have a conceal weapon permit and carry a firearm in public?  

                  The real problem is not law abiding citizens with concealed weapon permits, but repeat offenders carrying firearms and shooting innocent people.  

                  You apparently want to disarm those who do not pose any threat to you and yet offer no solution to take guns away from those who can and will cause you serious harm.

                  If you and I were out in public I, with a concealed weapon, would pose no threat to you.  How about a gang-banger illegally carrying a concealed gun who thinks you just dissed him?  

                  "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                  by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 04:06:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It is nonsense to claim we need more guns to (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    WakeUpNeo, coquiero

                    Defend ourselves from guns.

                  •  Also, if you feel some need to go (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    splashy

                    Around with a gun, I don't have much faith in your mental stability.

                    •  I don't 'go around' with a gun (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Joy of Fishes

                      hanging on my hip.  Although I live in an open carry State and it is common to see individuals open carrying a handgun in a holster.

                      If you met me I'd probably be on of the most average mild-mannered individuals you would meet.  There is no reason for you to be concerned about my mental stability.  I've never met a stranger and I bet you and I would get along very well.  I know a married couple, both 75, that each have a concealed licensed and their mental stability is just fine, thank you.  

                      We live in a very rural area, the closest town has a population of 2,000 with our closest neighbor about one mile away.  When I'm sitting in our backyard my view is of a mountain range and trees, there is not another home in sight.  It's not that I have some 'need' to go around with a gun, where we live a gun is like a tool that most people have and have used for years.  It's just a part of life in rural American.

                      People who have carry permits are not crazed lunatics just escaping from some mental institution.  There are several steps, including a Federal background check, that one goes through to obtain this license, in addition to having fingerprints run through who knows how many data bases.  One also has to demonstrate proficiency with a handgun prior to having a license issued.  If our local Sheriff has any reason not to issue a concealed license then he has the legal means not to.

                      Please Google ATF 4473 to view the form that one has to fill out and sign prior to obtaining this license and also to purchase any firearm.  And it's not just a matter of filling out this form---the Federal Government runs a background check verifying that the information is accurate.  Any felony, or under indictment for a felony, dishonorable discharge, drug addiction, adjudication of mental illness, any restraining order, or a misdemeanor for spousal abuse are all reasons for becoming a prohibited person.  

                      You have no reason to fear anyone with a concealed carry permit.  

                      "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                      by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 06:01:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  At least living way out gives some excuse to (0+ / 0-)

                        Own a gun.

                        In an urban area the need to own a gun to my mind shows some mental instability.

                        And why do you defend concealed weapons in an area such as yours?

                      •  It would be BETTER if you had it on your hip (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Duckmg

                        At least then everyone could see it, and know where it's pointing.



                        Women create the entire labor force.
                        ---------------------------------------------
                        Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                        by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:35:45 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The concept of a concealed weapon (0+ / 0-)

                          is misunderstood by many.  The law, where I live, states that if any part of the firearm is even partially concealed by clothing it is then  considered a concealed weapon.  

                          So yes  I can have a weapon in a holster (and I do) but if my shirt partially conceals the handgun, or if I wear a vest then it is considered concealed---even though it is in a holster worn on my belt.

                          When outside in the winter I have to wear heavy clothing so any firearm on my person would be concealed.  

                          There are also laws pertaining to brandishing a firearm.  So wearing a handgun on the waste partially concealed by clothing may be considered brandishing subject to some serious penalties.

                          With a concealed weapon I am prohibited from going into a bar, a restaurant where alcohol is served, a school, a church or government building. These restrictions vary by State as well as the definition of a concealed weapon.

                          When on my private property the laws pertaining to concealed weapons become moot.  

                          "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                          by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 10:55:04 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The point is where it's pointed (0+ / 0-)

                            And being able to see where it's pointed.

                            Concealed carry takes that ability away.

                            I'm happy with folks that have gun racks, for instance. You have a chance to get out of the line of fire.



                            Women create the entire labor force.
                            ---------------------------------------------
                            Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                            by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 04:39:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Citation needed (5+ / 0-)
                    many, but not necessarily all, recent mass shootings have occurred in so called 'gun free zones.'
                    AFAIK this is not true. Certainly not all, and whether they fit the definition of 'many' depends on how loose you define it. This was written after the 'gun-free zone' myth was trotted out in the wake of the Navy Yard shooting. It's unfortunate that you would revive a right-wing talking point used by Rush Limbaugh, but in any case, if you're going to do so it ought to be supported with some credible evidence.

                    http://mediamatters.org/...

                    First, the right-wing myth that shooters specifically open fire on locations that don't allow guns because they know there won't be armed resistance. That's false. As Mother Jones reported as part of its ongoing analysis of gun rampages, "Among the 62 mass shootings over the last 30 years that we studied, not a single case includes evidence that the killer chose to target a place because it banned guns." An analysis from Mayors Against Illegal Guns found that fewer than one quarter of mass shootings in public spaces from January 2009 through January 2013 occurred in gun-free zones.

                    Instead, most gunmen choose their killing sites because they have a personal connection to it (i.e. it's their workplace or school), not because of the location's posted gun policy.

                    Secondly, if more guns, and access to more guns, is the answer to curbing shooting sprees, then why haven't more guns curbed shooting sprees? As Mother Jones noted, nearly 100 state laws loosening gun restrictions have been passed in the last four years, yet 2012 was the worst year for mass shootings in recent history.

                    Now, thanks to the Navy Yard massacre, 2013 is on track to set another deadly record. And no, "gun-free zones" aren't the reason why.

                    Guns don't kill people. People kill guns. -- this message brought to you by the Night Vale chapter of the N.R.A.

                    by tytalus on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 04:43:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Citation provided free of charge: (0+ / 0-)

                      "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                      by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 06:04:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ok, thanks for that (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Glen The Plumber, WakeUpNeo, splashy

                        Citing William F. Buckley's National Review, which in turn cites the discredited NRA-sponsored sockpuppeteer John Lott, and his outdated study from 1999 to explain recent mass shootings. Oh, but he claims it's still all the same.

                        So on top of failing to provide more recent data to counter the new data from the FBI used by MAIG, you're employing right-wing sources and talking points provided by the NRA and citing a source who has destroyed his own credibility on the matter. I couldn't have asked for a worse example from you, so thanks.  :)

                        Guns don't kill people. People kill guns. -- this message brought to you by the Night Vale chapter of the N.R.A.

                        by tytalus on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 06:36:57 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Actually all I did was google mass (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Joy of Fishes, FrankRose

                          shootings in gun free zone and picked the first one.

                          Your comments and criticisms are valid and I stand corrected.  I should have taken my time and been more diligent in responding to your request.

                          This whole gun control issue is volatile with strong opinions on each side.  Living in a rural area I fall on the side that feels we don't need any additional gun control laws--just enforce the ones we already have.

                          But I do appreciate the concern of others who obviously disagree with me and wish I had an answer to this complex problem facing our society.It will take someone a lot smarter than me to find a suitable compromise and or solution.

                          "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                          by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 07:18:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  actually...if you google... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            mass shootings in gun free zones...I had to pass up the top two from media matters and mother jones articles refuting the RW gun free zone meme...found national review on the very bottom of the page.

                            We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

                            by Glen The Plumber on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 08:16:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Geez...fussy tonight aren't we? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose

                            I went back into my history, just for you now, and what I typed into google was: 'figures on mass shootings in gun free zones.' And then picked the first one on the list.  

                            What exactly is your point to all this?  

                            Just so there won't be any confusion on what I mean by the first one on the list, here are the first three choices on this google search, I'll let you deal with the formatting issues from my cut and paste:

                            About 1,290,000 results (0.33 seconds)
                            Search Results

                                The Facts about Mass Shootings | National Review Online
                                www.nationalreview.com/articles/...facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fun...‎
                                Dec 16, 2012 - Gun-free zones have been the most popular response to previous mass killings. But many law-enforcement officials say they are actually ...
                                Study: The U.S. has had one mass shooting per month since 2009
                                www.washingtonpost.com
                            ...study-the-u-s-has-had-one-mass-shooting-p...‎
                                Feb 2, 2013 - Just 12 of the mass-shooting incidents, or 28 percent, involved assault weapons ... 7) About one-third of the shootings took place in gun-free zones. ... I used the statistics in a prepared speech I delivered and some of my gun ...
                                Examining the last 20 years of mass shootings through the lens of ...
                                www.nashuatelegraph.com
                            .../examining-the-last-20-years-of-mass.html‎
                                Jan 17, 2013 - But to declare that all of the mass murders in the past 20 years were also in gun free zones is a different story. We attempted to analyze this ...
                                The NRA

                            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                            by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 08:45:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Pardon me, is that your slip showing? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Glen The Plumber, coquiero
                    How about a gang-banger illegally carrying a concealed gun who thinks you just dissed him?
                    Or do you agree with Shamash's comment upthread?
                    Considering that gun owners at Kos are treated with the same level of respect and presumed innocence as a black man in 1947 Mississippi accused of touching a white woman, we might as well be a separate race.
                    These arguments could become very confusing.
                    •  Yes, I'm in the minority here (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

                      on DK and know full well that my opinions on firearms are not popular here.  But that is ok, I understand the nature of the dispute and will continue to be a responsible gun owner.

                      I will also continue to support Dems at election time, even if they are not strong supporters of the Second Amendment.  I am not a single issue voter and feel it is far more important for our country to elect Dems than any Republican.  

                      I was born and raised in San Francisco and moved to a quiet peaceful rural area outside of California upon retirement.  I have always been supportive of liberal causes and will continue that support no matter where I live.  BTW: that last sentiment is very unpopular where I now live so I'm getting blasted by a lot of folks these days: here on DK and wing nuts in my adopted State.  

                      But what the hey, I'm happy and have a nice peaceful life.  

                      "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                      by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 10:03:12 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I wouldn't, if I didn't know they were armed (0+ / 0-)

                Because I could get caught in the crossfire if I don't know where the guns are and where they are pointed.

                Open carry is better, because then we would all know what is what.



                Women create the entire labor force.
                ---------------------------------------------
                Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:34:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I live in a rural environment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, WakeUpNeo

            and the only one, of the many people I know, who has a gun, has hunting rifles.  

            •  That's nice. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

              I too know people who have only rifles, and I also know many people who have a large collection of rifles and handguns.  

              With one exception, of all the hunters I know, and there are a few, all tell me that they carry handguns along with a rifle when they are in the back woods hunting deer, elk, moose or bear. Perhaps in your locale hunters don't carry handguns---I obviously don't know.   The one exception is a hunter I know who only has rifles and shotguns without any handguns at home.  

              I'm not a hunter, never have hunted and know virtually nothing about hunting except what I have read or what other hunters have told me.  Hunting does not interest me.  

              What exactly is your point?

              "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

              by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 03:10:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Do you conceal carry? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Duckmg

        If so, you are not letting others decide if you are a menace to them or not.

        You are taking away their ability to choose whether they trust you or not, by forcing your gun into their presence without asking them if it's OK, or at least letting them see it and decide for themselves.

        I'm for open carry, at all times. That way everyone can see where the guns are pointing, and where they are.



        Women create the entire labor force.
        ---------------------------------------------
        Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

        by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:30:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This includes the police because they love killing (0+ / 0-)

      Black people in public.

      You're a menace to society.

      nosotros no somos estúpidos

      by a2nite on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:56:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Was Zimmerman one of the 14? (3+ / 0-)
  •  Just a couple of comments: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shamash, FrankRose

    As a disclaimer I am a member of the NRA.  

    As you pointed out the NRA does not report every incident of the "Good Use" in their Armed Citizen Report.  

    Thank you for the idea of contacting the NRA to list more incidents of the "good use" of Armed Citizens.  That is a good idea and one that I will follow up on.  This is something that is certainly doable and I will suggest your idea in a message to them today.  

    I have attended two handgun classes taught by NRA instructors and it should be pointed out to the non-NRA members that the NRA places a significant amount of time and effort in stressing gun safety.  If, and yes it is a significant if, every legal gun owner practiced the NRA recommended safety guidelines accidental discharges would drop to near zero.  

    I'm not trying to debate the worn out argument that guns don't kill, people do.  However, it seems to me that gun control laws do virtually nothing to keep firearms away from the bad guys but instead these laws seem to disarm law-abiding citizens.

    I do have a question:  In reference to the "bad use" of guns that you reported, what type of gun control law would you propose that would have a noticeable impact on these numbers?  Tom, I know at times the printed word on an internet forum can be taken in different ways but my question is serious, I truly am curious what type of laws you would propose to keep guns out of the hands of street thugs and gang members.

    Thank You

    "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

    by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:43:41 PM PDT

    •  Considering how many students and instructors (6+ / 0-)

      get wounded during these classes, I think this bit of speculation about miraculously zeroing accidental discharge rates is rather a silly fantasy. Do you read the GunFail series? All you highly trained, super careful, ninja types seem to shoot yourselves and people around you on an alarmingly regular basis.

      •  Ok, I'm not a super ninja type and have (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

        never met anyone who is.  

        The three basic rules of firearm safety are the following:

        Always point the firearm in a safe direction.

        Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot the weapon.

        Never load your firearm until you are ready to use it.

        Always be aware of what is behind your target.

        I stand by my previous statement that if these rules are followed then the accidental discharge rate will drop to near zero.  How could it be otherwise?  

        Please show me an example of an accidental discharge where all of these rules were followed.

        Yes accidents happen, I am well aware of that. My contention is that these accidents could have been avoided by careful adherence to these safety guidelines.

        "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

        by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 03:23:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And your argument is fantasy (4+ / 0-)

          because either those rules are inadequate or because they will never be followed strictly enough. Accidents DO happen.  And accidents WILL happen. Even the highly trained types shoot themselves or people around them on a fairly regular basis. There are multiple LEOs on GunFail every week that shot themselves or their partners or innocent bystanders. What alternate reality are you living in where a lethal weapon could ever exist in the numbers we have and NOT have routine "accidents"? That's like saying that if only all car drivers would keep their car between the lines and not hit the car in front of them, then there would never be accidents. Technically true, I'm sure. Probable? Not even close. Possible? Not in this universe.

          •  Whoa....hold your horses big guy. (0+ / 0-)

            I never said that accidents will never happen.  

            I was commenting about how the NRA stresses safety and qualified my comment by saying "if" all the safety rules were followed then accidents would drop to near zero.  

            My comments were designed to demonstrate that the NRA makes a serious commitment to safety, that's all.  

            Now someone here asked me for a citation for something I said a few hours ago so let me ask you for a citation on one of your comments:

            "Even the highly trained types shoot themselves or people around them on a fairly regular basis"---Citation please.

            Am I to assume that because of accidental firearm accidents you would like to ban guns?  Ok, let's ban all guns, now please explain how this will keep gang bangers and thugs from obtaining firearms?  

            No one here wants to address the issue of how do we keep firearms away from criminals?  If you would like to keep firearms away from people like me that is easy.  I'm a law abiding citizen and will obey the law.  But by definition criminals are not going to obey the law and will continue to use firearms against a population that you apparently would like to see disarmed.  

            If guns were all of a sudden banned, if all law abiding citizens turned in their firearms tomorrow, the sound you would hear would be criminals throwing a great big party.  They would be elated having such a target rich environment to ply their trade.

            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

            by sfcouple on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 06:41:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  This safety thing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, Duckmg
          Always point the firearm in a safe direction.
          Would that cover people with guns in their purses, pockets, glove compartments, trunks, etc? Because, as far as I can tell, all those places tend to turn guns on their sides, which means they are likely pointing at someone part of the time, which is not safe IMHO.

          That's why I don't like concealed carry. Who knows where those guns are pointing if you can't see them?



          Women create the entire labor force.
          ---------------------------------------------
          Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

          by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:40:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know what you mean, (0+ / 0-)

            I'd love to know where criminals carrying concealed firearms have their guns pointed.  That's why I don't like criminals carrying concealed weapons.  

            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

            by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 10:14:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Criminals?????? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              splashy

              His point had nothing to do with criminals per se.

              •  Yes I know and that's the problem. (0+ / 0-)

                He was referring to law abiding citizens qualified to carry a concealed weapon.  He's concerned about his perceived threat of a conceal carry citizen, while ignoring the very real threat of criminals.  Me: I'm very happy knowing there are conceal carry permit holders in my general vicinity---I feel very safe under those conditions.  

                The concept of always having the gun pointed in a safe direction applies when a firearm is actively under the control of someone, not when said firearm is being safely stored in a locked container of some kind.

                "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 04:28:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Is a pocket or purse a "locked container?" (0+ / 0-)

                  Just wondering.

                  What about a holster on the thigh? If a person sits down, does that turn the gun toward the person sitting opposite them?

                  I want to know where the guns are pointing. Is that so wrong?



                  Women create the entire labor force.
                  ---------------------------------------------
                  Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                  by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 04:41:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You have valid points and your (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

                    comments are not wrong.

                    Yes, the aim of a pistol in a holster will change when the wearer is moving---fortunately the barrel will still be pointed downward.  Although this still leaves the possibility of an accidental discharge ricocheting and injuring a by-stander.

                    Modern handguns have many passive safety devices and while it isn't impossible for a firearm being carried to have an accidental discharge it is very remote.

                    Passive safeties require no action on the part of the shooter to engage or disengage.  One example is a grip safety allowing the handgun to only be discharged if someone is properly holding the pistol by the grip.

                    An active safety would be some kind of device that the shooter has to move into the 'safe' or 'ready to fire' position.  

                    Some concealed carry weapons are placed in the front pocket of jeans (in a holster), some have inside the waistband holsters while some are carried outside the waistband.  These barrels are all pointed downward.

                    In a handbag or briefcase the barrel can take on several different positions that may not necessarily be pointed downward.  But again, modern handguns have several different passive safety devices guarding against accidental discharge.

                    By definition you will never know the position of the barrel in a concealed firearm.  However, the risk of accidental discharge while being carried in a holster is very remote.  

                    If someone is legally carrying a concealed firearm in a legally prescribed manner you will never know it.  If you do 'see' a concealed weapon then the person is carrying the firearm inappropriately, which in some jurisdictions is considered brandishing a firearm--a serious offense.

                    "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                    by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 05:12:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There is a gun fail article posted here which (0+ / 0-)

                      Makes a joke out of your comment.

                      •  First, my argument is not a joke. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

                        Modern handguns are very safe and the odds of an accidental discharge are very remote.  

                        Please don't twist my words around: my comments were directed to another poster who was concerned about the direction where a concealed weapon was pointed.  I was not talking about a firearm in the hands of a shooter.  

                        If one is holding a firearm then yes accidents can and do happen as people do stupid things.  There are way too many accidental discharges caused by people not paying attention to what they are doing.  I'm sure you, and many others, can list numerous examples of accidental discharges---all caused by stupidity.  Trust me, I read about these too and am disgusted with carelessness of some gun owners.  These individuals give all gun owners a bad name.  

                        However, I stand by my original comment, a handgun in a holster being carried concealed is highly unlikely to have an accidental discharge.

                        There really are responsible gun owners in this country who do not pose a threat to anyone.  We respect firearms, use them safely and responsibly, and we do our best to encourage all gun owners to do the same.  

                        Look, I know this forum is not a friendly place for those of us who use and carry firearms.  Perhaps I could have just stayed on the sidelines and kept my comments to myself....but I elected not to and had my umbrella ready to deflect all the negative comments.  

                        I must say this forum is like a walk in the park with a bunch of powder puffs compared to gun forums once they know I'm a liberal Democrat.  My goodness, I've learned words and punishments that I never knew existed---I mean these people seriously want to hurt me.  At least on DK people just generally don't like me, but I have never been threatened here.  

                        So what am I doing on DK and some gun forums?  I'm just expressing an opinion in what I hope is a congenial manner without any name calling.  People disagree and that is what makes this life of ours so interesting.  

                        "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                        by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 07:04:02 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Perhaps in a holster (0+ / 0-)

                          But many people carry in all kinds of ways, without holsters. In purses, in pockets, in glove compartments, under seats, etc.

                          Concealed carry encourages that.



                          Women create the entire labor force.
                          ---------------------------------------------
                          Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                          by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 08:51:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes I suppose it can with some (0+ / 0-)

                            people.  There are some who just do inexplicable things.

                            I can't speak for others, but for me and those I personally know, would never place a handgun under the seat as there is no reason to.  Without a conceal carry that action would be illegal in many jurisdictions.  

                            The act of putting a handgun in a purse or glove compartment and the action to remove the weapon creates situations that can lead to accidental discharges.  Having a loose gun in a car is not safe and not recommended or followed by most gun owners that I know.  But yes, it does happen.

                            There are purses with a specially designed zippered pocket that has a built in holster for a pistol.  In this situation, a handgun is safe and not likely to accidentally discharge.

                            However, removing a handgun from holsters does take practice and if not done properly then accidental discharges can and do happen.  It is highly dependent upon the type off firearm and the manner in which it is placed in the holster---is it loaded, is a round chambered, is a safety activated, is it cocked, etc.? Revolvers have no safeties so their removal from a holster obviously has to be performed without squeezing the trigger.

                            I don't know if conceal carry encourages these unsafe practices or not?  That is a good point and one that I can't answer.  

                            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                            by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:22:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The reason I said that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sfcouple

                            Is that with concealed carry people aren't called out for unsafe practices.

                            It it's open carry, others would be able to say "don't point that thing at me!" in no uncertain terms.

                            Thanks for a constructive conversation.



                            Women create the entire labor force.
                            ---------------------------------------------
                            Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                            by splashy on Sun Oct 13, 2013 at 07:03:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you too. (0+ / 0-)

                            Your comments and courtesy have been appreciated.

                            Best wishes to you.........

                            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                            by sfcouple on Sun Oct 13, 2013 at 08:02:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  So, basically, concealed means (0+ / 0-)

                      I have no recourse to get out of the line of fire. Bottom line. Anyone could be pointing a gun at me at any time, without me being able to do anything about it.

                      That's why I favor open carry.



                      Women create the entire labor force.
                      ---------------------------------------------
                      Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                      by splashy on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 08:49:21 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  There are no gun "accidents" - negligence, plenty. (0+ / 0-)
          Injuries have causes --
          they don't simply befall us from fate or bad luck.
          SafetyLit
          •  There can be gun accidents, (0+ / 0-)

            they are rare and not necessarily the result of negligence of the shooter.  Firearms are pieces of equipment that have failures not caused by the negligence of the owner.  Things break, and at times the failure occurs at the wrong time.

            I've personally seen a commercial cartridge with a serious manufacturing defect that could have caused injury to the shooter or bystander.  There would have been zero chance for this shooter to recognize the defect by visual inspection of the cartridge. Fortunately these issues are rare.

            There is currently a recall of one particular model of a well known manufacturer for a malfunctioning firing pin issue.  In this case two rounds may be fired from one pull of the trigger.  Based upon preliminary information it sounds like a design flaw and not a manufacturing problem.

            "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

            by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 07:39:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just another "rare" event? Or another "Oopsie..." (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sfcouple

              Just one from among those not-quite-so "rare" GunFAIL events:

              A Massachusetts doctor closed his eyes today when a court played a video that he filmed of his 8-year-old son shooting a powerful Uzi submachine gun that recoiled and shot the boy in the head, killing him...
              Helmke said there are about 600 unintentional gun deaths in the U.S. each year.
              Christopher Bizilj

              Though Christopher's father did win an out-of-court settlement from Uzi:

              “Christopher lived a lifetime in his short eight years. Susie and I have no regrets,” he said, as he eulogized his son.

              But, the doctor’s own words in his self-published book suggest otherwise.

              “Among trillions of galaxies, on the edge of our Milky Way, rotating around one star on a watery planet with over six billion people, you stand numb and alone following the loss of someone you loved,” the foreword begins.

              Dr. Charles D. Bizilj

              This tragedy was no "accident," and it didn't "just happen."

              There was plenty of negligence, all around.

              There are no gun "accidents."

              •  I agree. This was a tragedy that should (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WakeUpNeo

                never have happened.  I am truly sorry and reading this made me very sad.

                I would like to say that my comments about accidental discharges being very rare were only when the firearms are stored in a holster or other safe place.  My statement was to a poster who was concerned about not being able to see where a concealed weapon was pointed.  My comment did not address the issue of accidents when the firearm was in the hands of a shooter.

                A loaded firearm in the hands of anyone is very dangerous.  One careless moment can result in a lifetime of agony and regret.

                Thank you for sharing this story, it reinforces my dedication to safety at all times.  

                "It took us a couple of days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak." President Barack Obama 3/24/09

                by sfcouple on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:37:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe they should be Stopped and Frisked? (2+ / 0-)

    Didn't some of these bad uses of guns take place in areas like Chicago with reasonable (or at least reasonable before Heller) gun laws?

    Maybe if more people were stopped and frisked, gun laws would go down like they did in New York.

    "states like VT and ID are not 'real america'" -icemilkcoffee

    by Utahrd on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 12:50:31 PM PDT

  •  A ≥ B (6+ / 0-)

    If the question is:

    list all the confirmed “good” uses of a gun every month so that everyone can see how many there are compared to all those confirmed “bad” uses.
    then I refer you to the CDC report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence:
    Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals.

    Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e. incidents in which a gun was "used" by the crime victim in the sense of attacking to threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.

    (emphasis mine)

    So, the answer to your question is to take how many "bad" uses there are and say that there are at least as many "good" uses. A ≥ B.

    Now, I realize that some people have a conceptual aversion to criticizing a CDC report on gun violence that was commissioned by President Obama, but folks here at Kos have already called this aspect of the report "crap" (presumably based on their personal ability to judge the data in a manner superior to the combined talents of the CDC panel). So consider yourself in good company if you feel compelled to follow their lead and simply ignore and insult things that don't align with your worldview. Because that's item #17 on the list of "how we're different than conservatives".
    /snark

    •   (7+ / 0-)

      If, as you noted, "Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals." I'll be expecting a long list of "good" gun use in next month's NRA newsletter. By long I mean something north of say... 8,000.  

      •  You trust the NRA more than the CDC? (4+ / 0-)

        Interesting tact you're taking here.

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Fri Oct 11, 2013 at 02:07:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry for your lack of literacy (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kasoru, FrankRose

        There is no "if, as you noted" about it. I quoted the relevant parts of the CDC report word for word and provided you a link to that page of the report. If you can't read it, then find someone to read it for you.

        Either you accept the findings of report on the subject of your diary by a CDC panel of experts in the field, or you don't. If you don't accept the findings, then it wouldn't matter if the NRA published a full list every month, would it? And if you do accept the findings, they would not need to publish a full list, would they?

        So, which is it? Accept the report and admit you might be wrong, or deny the report and claim you are a better judge of these things than a panel of CDC experts.

        see also backfire effect.

        •  Nice personal insult there, Shamash. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero
          I'm sorry for your lack of literacy
          (Though maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounds?)

          See also Ad hominem.

          •  Illiteracy was the nicer option (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose, Kasoru

            If he is going to take a word-for-word quote from a linked primary source and preface it with "if, as you say", then either he is having a problem with reading it, or he is so lacking in ethics and spine that he cannot face the truth without casting aspersion on it with an error- or falsehood-implying "if, as you say" in front of it.

            Get back to me on which of these two you think is the case.

            An ad hominem attack (as per your link) requires that the comments be irrelevant and used to undermine an argument.

            An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument that attempts to undermine an argument based on an irrelevant fact about the person making the argument
            Since he made no argument and everything I said was relevant, ad hominem is definitionally impossible (by no stretch of the imagination is his suggestion that the NRA publish a 500 page newsletter every month "an argument"). What I said was neither ad hominem, ad hominem circumstantial nor ad hominem to quoque. I just pointed out that one either accepts the validity of that facet of the report or not, and the logical inferences that can be made from that acceptance or rejection.

            Similarly, derogatory information, if accurate, is not inherently ad hominem, nor are actual insults ad hominem unless used to try to undermine an argument. So, in light of your inaccurate use of a term whose definition you linked to, I might call you a "fucking ignorant dick". "Fucking" is merely an emphatic modifier and has no inherent quality, so it is not an insult (no one objects to being called a "fucking genius"). "Ignorant" is an accurate descriptor of your lack of knowledge and is therefore not an insult, and "fucking ignorant" is what you get when you link to the definition and still get it wrong. And since I am not trying to undermine anyone's argument, "dick" is not an ad hominem but merely my personal assessment of your character or lack thereof.

            That is how you do a "nice personal insult". Dumbass.

            P.S.: Do you accept the results of the CDC report?

  •   Do we know? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joy of Fishes, splashy

    1) In the self defense cases, do we know for sure if LETHAL self defense was necessary?

    2)If the self defense was against another gun,  how would we determine if the availability, the accessibility of guns was a factor in the need for self defense?

  •  Thanks for epic work on this topic. (4+ / 0-)
  •  Thank you and Peace to you, Tom. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, splashy, tytalus

    Too bad the RKBA member who posted one or more diaries  to showcase "good" episodes of defensive gun use awhile back apparently deleted his posts. We could have compared the information to help us assess accuracy.

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