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I've been around for a long time and have never witnessed a political beating as bad as we just handed the GOP. And to think, it was masterminded by Democrats!?!?

I felt sure that the GOP was on their last legs after Obama won the Presidency in 2008. Then the President decided to play nice and make the irrelevant looney toons appear as equal partners. It was a big mistake. And I was angry with him for it. I truly felt that they were on their last legs and he threw them a life preserver.

Unexpected by me, the President learned from that fiasco. While I expected him to remain true to form he decided that he would no longer bargain with the terrorists.

My hope going forward is that he also learned lessons about offering up the safety net to get a deal with these morons. I haven't gotten a sense yet that he'll fight harder to do the right thing for the needy versus doing the right thing for what he perceives would be better for his legacy. I'm hopeful.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The debt, default thing; although, dangerous (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, kat68, gffish, Pluto

    because of the threat to destablize the US's and the world's economic system is an energy vacuuming operation.  In the mean time while we have had to do that, immigration reform and climate change legislation sits on the back burner.  So don't say that this is such a big victory because it was not for immigrants or those of us who take climate change seriously.  We stlll wait to get these areas addressed while we prepare for another financial fiasco in a few short months. The GOP agenda is to eat up the clock and avoid any serious discussion of issues the GOP want to avoid by forcing us to deal with anything else but the issues I have mentioned here.

    •  If you can't fathom that it was a big deal because (9+ / 0-)

      the party that is best suited to tackle your concerns just wiped the floor with the opposition, then I feel for you.

    •  IMO, there is NO victory (17+ / 0-)

      that can cover all our favorite issues, except regaining the house and keeping the senate in 2014, and even then, we ain't going to get it all.

      This was about much more than the debt, a possible default, or Obamacare. It was about the minorities effort to set a very dangerous precedent that they could undo elections and short circuit legislative battles by putting a gun to this country's head.

      I think it was HUGE, and I think it was a very big victory for this country. And part of that victory for me, is knowing that 74% of this country said they did not approve. That was comforting to me, and it's assuredly a big reason the GOP caved in the end.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:54:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As long as a small minority can obstruct the way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        starduster

        they have done we are not moving forward.  Perhaps I just need to get used to the Affordable Care Act success which it is and leave it at that.  We have now lost 24 billion dollars in assets and taken up huge amounts of energy  that left us back further than where we started.  I see no cause for rejoicing in this.  Am I relieved that the government opened up again, yes?  But this extatic posturing is not warrented IMO.  If on the other hand we Democrats who stood firm against the Tea Party can consolidate this success to turn it into a defeat for the GOP going forward then I will feel alot more celebratory.  I already hear people saying well we have to help the GOP so we can have a strong two party system.  That kind of attitude is not going to defeat them.  As Obama found out finally, they only understand power and that is either they got it or they don't.  As far as I'm concerned they are unfit to govern and need to be defeated at every turn for the reckless disregard they have constanly shown.  The Kochs and their many front organizations are no doubt planning their next effort in obstruction or worse.  

        •  Defeatist attitudes will get us nowhere. If you (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mahakali overdrive, DMentalist

          don't understand that a win against the opposition party will bring you closer to your goals then there's no hope for you. Might as well cry in your beer.

          •  the REAL BFD: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a2nite, theBreeze

            In the Kos coverage of the deal on Wednesday:

             Senate-votes-on-shutdown-debt-ceiling-deal

            It also includes language allowing President Obama to waive the debt ceiling, which could be overridden by a vote of disapproval by Congress that could then be vetoed by the president;
                I haven't seen this item mentioned in the Kos coverage since then, so I really hope it didn't get weeded out in the final negotiations...it almost sounds too good to be true...But if the bill DID pass with that provision, that's something HUGE.  It's more than a victory...It's a HOME RUN!

                 If it's true, it essentially guarantees that all of this Debt Ceiling brinkmanship nonsense is OVER.   It gives Obama the unilateral power to WAIVE the debt ceiling, which can only be overridden by the 2/3 majority required to override a Presidential veto!

                 Yes, the Republicans can still shut down the government, but they CAN'T terrorize the country with the threat of default.  

               The only explanation I can think of is that Obama actually managed to turn the tables and use the Republicans' own blackmail strategy against them.  By letting it go to the 11th hour, the Republicans were in a position where there just wasn't time to debate the provision without passing the default deadline, so they had to either let it slide through, or allow the catastrophe of default, which would have only PROVEN why the provision is justified, and STRENGTHENED the President's bargaining power.    

                  Obama said that he wouldn't negotiate, that he would make no concessions, but in the end, he got the Republicans to make a concession, and a HUGE one.  

                 That the House would not only cave completely but also voluntarily AUGMENT the powers of the President is utterly stunning to me.  

                 If anyone reading this knows the details and can confirm that this provision did make it into the final bill, or must burst my bubble and inform me that it was indeed weeded out, please comment.  

                 But as I said, if it's true, it's an HISTORIC Victory for the President, even though I'm a little bummed that it precludes the possibility of ever seeing the Treasury mint that 6 Trillion Dollar Coin...

            •  according to Wonkblog, no (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DMentalist
              We've been using the McConnell mechanism to raise the debt ceiling since 2011. If we made the McConnell mechanism permanent — something the Obama administration favors — it would basically disarm the debt ceiling forever. But last night's deal didn't make the McConnell mechanism permanent. It's only valid until Feb. 7, 2014.

              "No, we didn't get rid of the debt ceiling forever"

              (I think the August 2011 deal allowed for two debt ceiling increases using this mechanism.)

              "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 18, 2013 at 02:45:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  This reminds me.... (0+ / 0-)
      So don't say that this is such a big victory because it was not for immigrants or those of us who take climate change seriously.  We stlll wait to get these areas addressed while we prepare for another financial fiasco in a few short months. The GOP agenda is to eat up the clock....
      I wonder if people remember that what we are dealing with -- and have dealt with over the past month -- is the Fiscal Cliff!  We've been fighting this zombie issue since last December.

      We haven't moved an inch since December 2012 -- until now. And it still sits in front of us to be slayed all over again again in a month or so. Like it never even happened.

      The GOP political strategy on display here is the economic failure of the domestic US economy, a goal that was established in December 2008. They have certainly had significant success, although President Obama's cabinet and close advisors in matters of defense and finance -- have been the wind under the GOP's wings.


      [ O Recommend   O Hide   O Bitch about this at the Help Desk ]

      by Pluto on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 11:10:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't see it as about his legacy (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    majcmb1, Rosalie907, kalmoth, scamperdo

    for Obama, at least not in any way that's more significant than any president. I think Obama still sees himself very much as an active president. It is ridiculous that in this country a president is written off over legacies and lame ducks with 3 years yet to serve.

    If we don't take back the house in 2014 though, Obama will not be able to accomplish anything. What a waste. But in this latest show down, he accomplished a lot, imo. I said in a comment on another thread that I think refusing to blink in the face of such crazies with no clear idea whether we'd default or not, may just be end up being a huge legacy for him. It had to be done.

    And if the GOP wants to try this again, even closer to the mid terms, well then they can just have at it. I doubt they will, but I say bring it on. It would almost assure they lose the house in 2014.

    The Tea Party is a fringe and deservedly maligned group in America today. Wish the media would stop crowning them with so much air time and coverage. It's as if they've taken the media hostage too.

    I can only hope that establishment republicans realize they're going to have to fight to put this Frankenstein down, and maybe they'll be less likely to build another one.

    "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

    by StellaRay on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:49:31 PM PDT

    •  If he truly believes that the safety net is too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlueDragon, PhilK

      expensive than yeah, I believe his bargaining with it is about his perceived legacy.

      Taking back the House in 2014 will depend a lot on what he negotiates over the next shut down/debt ceiling. If he plays the austerity card then we will lose just like we did in 2010. It's really all up to him.

      •  What's on the table is (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pluto, starduster, Jerry056

        the adoption of the the chained CPI. Don't agree with it and will fight the president on this, as I did when he offered it in 2011. But to hear some folks talk here, you'd think he was ready to pull SS out by its roots, or try to privatize it the way Bush did. Some perspective is necessary.

        Here's what I think. I think the chained CPI will not happen because the GOP will NEVER accept the stick that comes with that carrot, which is increased revenue through taxing the rich. Nope, not going to happen.

        So, wait for it, we're going to go through weeks of pie fights here, and the same old in Washington. And we will arrive at January, time to refund the government, and at February, time to raise the debt ceiling, and we will have gotten exactly NO WHERE. Then we'll see whether the GOP is going to do it all over again, and you know, they just might.

        The Tea Party hasn't learned a damn thing in this last go around. Not one damn thing. And although they're now more reviled then ever, they'll still be highly financed and they'll still have John Boehner to kick around.

        The ONLY thing that will make this not true, is if the establishment republicans kick them to the curb, and they're not even close to doing that, or this thing wouldn't have gone down to the nub to begin with.

        No, the GOP really is a party divided, more so then I've ever seen either party divided in my lifetime, and I'm no spring chicken.

        "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

        by StellaRay on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:17:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's what I think. It was almost criminal for (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          starduster

          the President to be the one putting chained CPI on the table. It's not smart bargaining unless he truly believes in it. Unforgivable in my opinion and I'm hoping this latest episode shows him that giving away the store hurts him while standing up to thieves helps him.

          •  As I said, I don't like the chained CPI (0+ / 0-)

            either and I'll fight it. However, something I see folks guilty of here is not adding to their discussions that this is not a give away from the president. It comes with a HUGE STICK for the republicans, and like I said, no way they'll do it. Hence no way we're getting the chained CPI.

            If I know this, thinking the president knows it too. Are you kidding me? Do you think this group we've watched the last couple of weeks are going to turn around and agree to significant new revenue off the backs of the rich? Ain't going to happen. Nope. Not.

            Now if you want to be mad at Obama for even uttering the words chained CPI IF he gets significant revenue in return, I get that. There's a very strong case to be made for that---no democratic president should ever bargain w/SS, even if it's never going to happen, etc. I get that.

            But you better fasten your seat belt, because Obama is going to make this available again. And it will be refused again. So if that reality is unforgivable to you, then consider yourself there. Because it's going to happen.

            "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

            by StellaRay on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:41:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The radical Right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StellaRay

          ...have been the greatest allies and defender of liberal values:

          ...the GOP will NEVER accept the stick that comes with that carrot, which is increased revenue through taxing the rich. Nope, not going to happen.
          They have rescued us again and again from social program surrenders. (Or, for example, from another stupid military blunder in Syria.)

          For all I know, this is by design, and the far right are manipulated into being running dogs for Obama. And we're too caught up in the daily cycle drama to see it.

          The fact is, however, they have been doing for more damage to the Republicans than they are to Democrats. Consistently.

          You're right, StellaRay. It is the damnedest, most confounding  thing to behold.


          [ O Recommend   O Hide   O Bitch about this at the Help Desk ]

          by Pluto on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 11:24:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •   The President (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, chicago minx

    As we say in the hood.Didn't punk out.

  •  He Never Speaks of Principles of Civilization (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, jec, BlueDragon, Odysseus, PhilK

    only process and governance.

    My hope going forward is that he also learned lessons about offering up the safety net
    He was putting the social safety net on the table before and after the bargain.

    His complaint was process --debt limit and budget-- not policies. He ran in 08 stating that social security was in, in his word, "crisis."

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:54:24 PM PDT

    •  Disagree with this: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David54
      He Never Speaks of Principles of Civilization only process and governance.
      As if process and government are not about "principles of civilization." In fact, government is the entity that sets out "the principles of civilization" in any country and throughout history.  

      If you don't get by now that the GOP/Tea party were trying to set a major precedent that would effect how democracy is defined for years to come, then I don't know how to explain it to you.

      Did you see his speech today? IMO, he talked A LOT about the "principles of civilization" through the process of government. I would be interested in having you outline how you think those principles are applied without a governing body.

      "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

      by StellaRay on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:02:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  As you say, it was a BFD. But from the evidence (8+ / 0-)

    that's been coming out, it is pretty clear that Obama drew a line that he wasn't going to cross no matter what GOPers did. He really felt standing firm was in the the long term interest of the nation and the presidency. He's tough as nails when he makes commitments like that.

    But that doesn't mean he is going to give up his natural inclination to be a political negotiator. He'll continue to put stuff on the table that will make people here scream (me included), though I think after this episode he'll be much more willing to let GOPers slit their own throats with their radical nihilism. And I fully expect to hear their endless bleating about the unfairness of it all ("THAT one is mocking me!") for the rest of his term ...

  •  Lets see what happens (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueDragon, jec, Pluto

    With the Budget Committee report that has to be done by mid December.  It better not have charges to Social Secuity (except for raising the cap), Medicare and Medicaid along with decreases in other social welfare programs.  

    Yea, we won this fight but the battle isn't over and its still us vs the Republicon Party.

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011) Voting is a louder voice than a bullhorn.

    by Rosalie907 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:02:32 PM PDT

  •  Sad to say, he set himself up for this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueDragon, jec

    by virtually begging for Republican votes for ACA in 2009. Republicans strung him along for months, assuring people like Max Baucus that they were really close to getting a vote or two from across the aisle.

    He should have given them a deadline and then swept them aside when they missed it.

    They've played him like a fiddle until now. And now is pretty damn late.

    Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UID: 8519

    by Bob Love on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:07:11 PM PDT

  •  i'm hopeful about entitlements too (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jec

    when i see someone say that Obama 'wants' to cut entitlements, it sounds ridiculous to me.  would he make nicks in entitlements in an effort to raise taxes and shelve the issue for a decade or two?  yeah, i think he would.  but i don't think he'd do it because he wants to the way the GOP want to.

    but then, later, i don't feel quite so sure about it.  i don't know if he wants to make the cuts.  something in my gut just won't let me feel certain that he doesn't want to.

    my head says he won't, but my gut worries.  so, i'm hopeful too.

  •  Harry Reid, he and POTUS Obama saved the day. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StellaRay, jec, kat68, gffish, David54

    Saved our democracy.

    An amazing feat, and the lion's share of the credit goes to tag team Barry-and-Harry.

  •  Oh, by the way (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think Alexander is up for re-election in 2014.

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011) Voting is a louder voice than a bullhorn.

    by Rosalie907 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:24:55 PM PDT

  •  This was masterminded by Baggers. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, starduster, beemerr90s

    A "clever plan" as Edmund Blackadder would say.

    Their plan would either fail or it would fail.

    Nobody won.

    Politically, we let them tear themselves apart. If our paln was to do nothing, that wasn't much of a reach.

    The baggers are now more stupid than they were when they started this whole mess. Even Sarah Who™ came out from beneath her rock.

    So we pissed away $24 billion and 0.6% of our quarterly GDP so that the wingnuts could play dodgeball with their own hornet's nest.

    Corey Booker should have trounced the shit out of the right wing jerk who ran against him. Yeah, he won by 10 points. That's good, but that's still a lot of voters who didn't get the message of the shutstorm.

    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Fri Oct 18, 2013 at 01:29:24 AM PDT

  •  JEEESUS. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jerry056, denig

    What is it, illegal to enjoy a moment around here???

    Apparently it's a group imperative to snatch defeat from the jaws of a victory?

    This diarist is dead on. It was a BIG FUCKING DEAL in a world where there aren't many. It was a huge victory for the President, a huge victory for the party, and most of all, and I can't stress this enough, DEMOCRACY.

    Now I'm going to run along and enjoy myself for a while longer. You all can stay here and bitch at each other.

  •  Big Deal short run. (0+ / 0-)

    We'll see what happens during the negotiations. If the Dems refuse to give on Social Security and Medicare, the Pubs are finished.
       If there's some kind of deal to cut "entitlements" the successful staredown over the shutdown and debt ceiling will look like political kabuki and Dem unfavorables will climb.

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