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The endangered species act has been a terrific success, in other ways it has been an abysmal failure. For those who have had to work with it there has long been a bipartisan wish for reform.

Last summer in a meeting of all 17 governors representing all the states from Texas up to North Dakota and on west including Hawaii, Alaska, and American Samoa they adopted a resolution they all could agree on. Go to link labeled Endangered Species Act

Fees from hunting and fishing licenses and the kind donation of available habitat from local ranchers has brought the black footed ferret back from the brink of extinction via captive breeding and reintroduction.

You'd have to search long and hard to find an issue that governors from states as diverse as the left coast and Rick Perry of Texas could agree on. The Endangered Species Act (ESA) is just such an issue.

The governors recognising their own "strongly held differences" none the less came to an agreeable consensus statement that they could all sign their names to. If the governor of Wyoming, Idaho, and Texas can agree with the governors of California, Oregon, and Washington on an issue environmental I believe there is a strong possibility for agreement in congress.

Seven key issues highlighted by the governors in their short but thorough resolution are... Bold is from the govs, underneath my interpretation, original at the link with more details.

Require recovery goals for listed species.
This means numerical goals which when met a species is delisted. Infamously population goals shift via lawsuits and judges.

Significant portion of the range must be defined.
This phrase has shape shifted over the past few lawsuits. Current interpretation is current range, not historic.

Enhance the role of state governments in recovering species.
The original ESA set the states and the feds on a more equal footing.

Ensure the use of sound science in ESA decisions.
Instead of kitten photos.

Incentives and funding for conservation are essential.
Pay to play. Right now all the onus is on the states (hunters and shooters) You want us to spend millions on species you list you need to come up with some cash for us to do it. The spending authority for the ESA ended in 92, it needs to be appropriated.

Foreseeable future must be defined.
Next week? Next century?

States should be full partners in listing and recovery planning decisions, particularly when modeling is used in analysis.
When computer geeks start playing with multi layered maps and projections due to climate change with time frames out beyond next century sometimes things get a little,, uhm, unrealistic. Maybe physically count some individuals of the species first.

What do I think is up? Everyone is sick of getting jerked around by the ESA. You want to save species? Great, so do I, you don't like the boots I wear? Not the original intent of the Act, Crocks are not a species. There are groups and people who do not approve of and will work with any means at their disposal to stop all ranching, farming, mining, logging, and hunting, on western lands. Notice I said western not public. Private lands are also constrained by the ESA. As things currently stand the best action to take if you know you have an endangered species on your land is to kill it quick before someone finds out it's there.

Do I think it will happen, maybe. If the 2014 elections allow legislation to start moving again the ESA might be one that many could agree on. The ESA is currently stretched to the breaking point. FWS and states are beginning to become dysfunctional in working together as they serve different masters. The red wolf in North Carolina which  really might represent the last of an old subspecies, is being poached as fast as it can be reintroduced. California due to it's societal unease with hunting has suffered loss of revenue in it's Fish and Wildlife such that it can't patrol or enforce half it's laws on the books. Mines and oil companies not knowing what will be possible in the future are simply pushing as hard as they can and every place they can, right now. A more long term outlook would serve all of us better.

Every state has it's issues, and mostly they revolve around the unpredictability of ESA implementation. Careful who you donate to, you might be making things worse.

Update: Alternatively is Senate Bill 1731 introduced this week by Rand Paul and freinds which would basically gut the act altogether. There is also a house subcommittee holding hearings around the west on "fixing" the bill. There are a lot of ways this could go, especially with a loss of the senate, some fixes might not be to our liking.

Originally posted to ban nock at DKos on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:26 PM PST.

Also republished by Liberal G Club.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:26:54 PM PST

  •  This is why we have the ESA (14+ / 0-)

    Because developers, miners, drillers, etc. do this:

    the best action to take if you know you have an endangered species on your land is to kill it quick before someone finds out it's there.
    Once the decimation of these habitats is done, once a species is gone, it is forever. And as far as I know, posterity doesn't have a time limit.

    OTOH, conglomerates could start converting their efforts toward clean energy, and mining landfills instead of raking up raw earth.

    Now in Pennsylvania we are facing a bill that requires endangered species designation to be granted not through scientists alone but decided through a not-so-independent review board and legislators, few if any of whom are scientists. It is an overt move to surrender to economic interests instead of ecological ones, perverts the mission of conservation agencies, and would smooth the way for permitting of gas drilling and pipelines etc.

    It would also disregard protecting the last few remaining Pennsylvania habitats of cave-hibernating bats, 98% of which have died off due to white-nose fungus in recent years.

    •  actually I think the ESA is to save species not to (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kevinpdx, marina, 6412093, ER Doc, MGross

      kill them.

      When it incentivises killing species it's busted. Pennsylvania might have it's own state laws but federal designation trumps it.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 06:11:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thats what I'm hoping, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock

        just in case this bill passes. I'm not sure where the feds stand on saving the bats, though, since that is a multi-state problem. A worrisome one, given the importance of bats in agriculture and health issues.

        •  this is simply a "resolution" aka suggestion from (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          6412093, ER Doc, marina

          the states. I just updated with a bill from Rand Paul introduced in the senate which will never pass,,,,, this session. But with a changed filibuster rule next session and a R majority it's certainly a possibility. Of course they'd have to give quite a bit for Obama's signature, but still there are potentially very uncomfortable changes possible.

          My epic 6 year battle to get the bats out of my attic has finally succeeded. Maybe they headed your way.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:00:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Until and unless California gets a FUNCTIONAL (8+ / 0-)

    Fish and Game Department, not the POS disfunctioning political machine it currently has that does NOTHING useful for ESA species, I support the feds.

    Do I think the feds are perfect? No. They are MUCH too lax. AND they, today, retain many in superior positions appointed by Bush to help dismantle, politicize, and wreck not only the agency but the ESA itself.

    I don't give a damn what my governor thinks--or what your's thinks. I care about what scientists think.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 06:21:50 PM PST

    •  what about the scientists at your Fish and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6412093, ER Doc

      Wildlife? or the USFWS? Currently many controversial decisions are made by lawyers and judges with no scientific background, or in the case of CA by politicians in the legislature.

      Science is one of the seven principles that the governors are asking be given more credence, so you do agree with them there, right?

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 06:35:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You really think Rick Perry (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mark Mywurtz, radmul, quill, cany

        or Butch Otter are interested in science?

        •  And this is the same Butch Otter (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mark Mywurtz, quill

          who violated the Clean Water Act 3 separate times in 1992, 1995, and 1998.  He bulldozed wetlands on his property.

          Otter Told to Pay Wetlands Fine

          U.S. Rep. Butch Otter has been ordered to pay a $50,000 civil penalty for violating the federal Clean Water Act by destroying wetlands near his Star, Idaho, home.

          The order from Administrative Law Judge Carl Charneski reduces Otter's fine from the $80,000 proposed by the Environmental Protection Agency, which argued that the higher fine was justified for Otter's third violation of the act.

          So I don't think I will be trusting the dishonorable Gov. Butch Otter on anything having to do with the EPA.
          Otter, a millionaire businessman and North Idaho's representative in Congress, has been converting marshland at his spread near the Boise River into landscaped ponds. He paid a penalty for violating state and federal environmental regulations for work in wetlands without a permit in 1992, and received an after-the-fact permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers following his second violation in 1995. He applied for a permit for the third project, which destroyed 2.4 acres of wetlands, but never finished the application process or received a permit.
          •  rhetoric has served well so far, but I think that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc

            kind of talk is no longer useful, assuming you know you are just stomping around and throwing stuff.

            Jerry Brown, Neil Abercrombie, and Jay Inslee are the names you should be learning, unless you prefer hating on Butch.

            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:29:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Gov. Butch (0+ / 0-)

              Otter's past disrespect for, and blatant violation of, the very EPA laws you are trying to dialogue about is very relevant to whether his current position on the EPA can be trusted to be in the interest of Idahoans. It is my opinion that he cannot be trusted based on his past behavior, but you can feel free to trust the man who was so arrogant he decided it was more to his liking to break the law three times and pay the fine than to follow the law and get permits.  What he did he did in my backyard.

              Butch is a slime ball of the lowest order.  He is also an opportunist.  He sees an opening to get what he wants.  I don't trust anything that Butch Otter wants but if you want to join hands with ole Butch and sing Kumbaya go ahead.

              And just to further highlight Butch's character:

              On Aug. 1, three days after his win (of tight jeans contest), Otter was arrested for DUI in Meridian. Many folks wrongly conflate the events, believing the DUI happened on the same night. Not so. But taken together they mark a low point in Otter’s public and private life.

              Seven months later, in March 1993, a jury convicted Otter of DUI. His testimony added to the legend: his knee was sore from running eight miles; he asked to take a sobriety test in stocking feet because he couldn’t keep his balance in cowboy boots; he swerved his yellow Jeep while reaching for his cowboy hat; and blew his Breathalyzer test because he soaked his chewing tobacco in Jack Daniels.

              Butch Otter Tight Jeans Contest Winner, DUI Loser
      •  The agency is completely political. They are (0+ / 0-)

        useless, as far as I am concerned. If I call Fish and Game on a violation, they MIGHT get back to me in a week... or a month. Or never.

        And furthermore, don't assume CA's gov is much of an environmentalist. He's not. He has supported measures that were detrimental to CEQA and CA Planning Law. He picks what he's interested in, but the environment has never been really high on his list.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:27:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  You said: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    6412093, ColoTim
    As things currently stand the best action to take if you know you have an endangered species on your land is to kill it quick before someone finds out it's there.
    I would counsel some care in making a statement like that.  Either you really mean that, or you're engaging in snark, or you are saying what others believe but you yourself don't believe, because it is hard to believe someone arguing on behalf of more state involvement/engagement in ESA process issues would ever say or believe anything like that.
    •  I've no land to worry about, but as things (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6412093, ER Doc

      currently stand the worst thing that could ever happen to a land owner would be for an endangered specie to exist on his land.

      I'm stating a reality.

      Do we wish to encourage the saving of species or their killing?

      That ferret was recently successfully introduced to some large prairie dog colonies on private land because of a law change that states the landowners are not responsible for any decline in population and can continue to use their land no matter what. Current law also dissuades landowners from contributing to species protection.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:36:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, there's more than a little mythology there (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        offgrid, quill

        The reality is not that jackbooted thugs from the FWS come and tell landowners they have to cease and desist all activities on their land in the name of the blue-faced whooping slug.  Generally the FWS is completely averse to stirring up shit with private landowners and will go out of their way to try and work with them on unobtrusive ways to help the species.  You can certainly dig up a couple of anecdotes of hamfisted efforts by the agency...and all other agencies while you're at it.  However, the picture you're painting is an inaccurate bogeyman story embraced by large-scale western landholders.

        I don't trust something this important to any republican state government, as they have repeatedly demonstrated that they aren't interested in good faith competent governance in other sectors and they aren't interested in any environmental protection that interferes with industry.  I don't understand your motives on this.

        Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

        by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:52:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't trust a Democratic gov either (4+ / 0-)

          State governments, Dem or Rep, are always going to be more beholden to regional special interests than the feds. Giving more power to the states to regulate and set the conditions for the ESA is pretty much the definition of letting the foxes guard the henhouse.

          "Tell the truth and run." -- Yugoslav proverb

          by quill on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:02:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  shake hands with your fellow traveler Rand Paul (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            quill

            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:19:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  quite the opposite (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock

              What a strange comment! Paul is on your side: he would eliminate all fed oversight and regulation and if possible abolish the ESA. He'd be thrilled to see corrupt state governments managing all of their own affairs.

              "Tell the truth and run." -- Yugoslav proverb

              by quill on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:20:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Libertarians don't like Dems or Repubs, the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                quill

                government is all wrong. Extremism or nothing, that's where your ideals overlap those of Rand.

                “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:55:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  no, ban nock (0+ / 0-)

                  I believe in a government that is first and foremost responsive to the needs of the majority of the public, not the wealthy and corporations. I believe that our current political system is mostly the opposite. My criticism here is based on observation, as a lifelong resident of the West (CA, OR, WA), that special interests have always had a lot of influence on local gov, regardless of which party is in power, and that is why we need strong Fed oversight. That's not idealism, it's simple observation.

                  Also as a biologist, and with some regional FWS colleagues working with endangered and others studying soon to be listed species (sage grouse), I can tell you that there is a LOT of politics going on with recovery plans, and it is nearly always slanted in favor of business, and not environmentalist or even data driven scientific concerns.

                  "Tell the truth and run." -- Yugoslav proverb

                  by quill on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:53:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Down below 6412093 notes those exact same (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc

          "jackbooted thugs" "hamfisted" etc etc etc people don't care about his salmon, but his objection is coming from the conservation side of things.

          I think that when allowed to do their job the FWS does a fairly decent job of things. They are pushed from both directions by private groups who don't seem to have species conservation as a goal.

          One group wants to develop and exploit resources, and the other group wants to end the same as well as move the people off the land who live there. If species is our goal we'd be better served by allowing the scientists, the vast majority of whom work for the states, to more closely dictate policy. States are the ones footing the bill and state employees are the ones doing the work. When state sympathies are at odds with the Feds the results can be disastrous as in North Carolina.

          The ESA is long past due for large changes. Too many of both parties want it fixed for too long. What is yet to be decided is whose version of change will occur. Remember, at least five of these governors are Dems. California, Hawaii, Washington, and Oregon are all fairly liberal states.

          My motive is to educate readers in what is legislatively on the horizon for the ESA. Also to convince readers that being too extreme and radical can push the ESA into being changed sooner and in a more pronounced lurch back to the center of the issue, or beyond.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:18:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ban nock, you're onto something big here (0+ / 0-)

            The entire political divide is a matter of marketeers vs. conservationists.  Spewing spittle-flected invectives "republicans" only serves to obfuscate the real issue: Financial Dividends vs. Species Diversity.

            Ducks Unlimited and the Prairie Pothole Program, worked for decades in getting farmers to leave wetlands alone.  Permit flyway resting places, and nesting places to co-exist with crop production.
            There was a small stipend, and often volunteer labor to assist in doing so.
            USDA NRCS would also get involved, in paying for fencing, to keep domestic critters out of streams and rivers.  Fund wells and watering troughs.
            The alternative to permitting your livestock to wade into streams and rivers, which increases erosion and fecal contamination of the waterway.

            The Food Safety Modernization Act calls for elimination of wildlife access to farmed areas.
            Sold as "consumer protection".
            ALL Birds - out. Fecal contamination.  Ducks, geese, hawks, owls, eagles, grouse, flycatchers, crows, nuthatches, finches... no matter.
            Deer - out. Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies.
            Elk - out. Same reason as deer.
            Fox, Wolf, Coyote.  Fecal contamination.
            Scorched earth is clean earth.
            How, did this happen?

            "I should not have to interrupt my day, just to wash the produce my child eats.  I'll have you know, I have rights.
            I have a right to a life, outside of a kitchen. I have a right to be free from concerns about raising my child.  I demand action damn it."
            FSMA.  Gives the consumer all of those rights, at the expense of many wildlife species.  
            Does the small farmer who hand-harvests care?  Not really.  They often look at wildlife as enhancing the farm experience.

            The staunch supporter of FSMA, the Mega-farms, with mechanical harvesting, like big square-sided lots.  
            Ponds, and wetlands are lost value.  Negative impact upon the balance sheet.  Of seasonably variable borders, wetlands are not in-keeping with "modernization".

            Farmers, regardless of size, need not be too encouraged on the issue of eliminating marmots and other rodents.
            Between burrow injuries to large livestock, and crops lost to obligate herbivores (woodchucks), an active control program is usually in-place on most farms.

            Ferrets?  Can stay... and help with the marmot/rat issues. Just not in the chicken coop... where Chicken is always on the menu.

            •  I saw this too late to rec (0+ / 0-)

              thank you for such an informative comment. I didn't even know of the FSMA, let alone what it was about. I'll pay attention next time I see it.

              “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

              by ban nock on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:46:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  I, too, object to the use of the word "best". (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LakeSuperior

      As used here, "best" is only "best" for a greedy world-view and I don't believe land-owners only are greedy anti-government sagebrush rebellionistas.  It's not best for the species, it's not best for scientists who want to study them and get accurate information about them so that any ESA designation is based upon accurate science, it's not best for the public who may want to see some (think the Spotted Owl) and it's not "best" for those who might own the land because they want to preserve it.

      It's good to have opinions on the ESA, but that one phrase you used throws a balanced piece over the edge.

  •  "State involvement" in the environmental (7+ / 0-)

    context is code for "gut the law."  Every point the diarist has raised is a way to roll back protections of the ESA.

    •  Did you follow the link to Rand Paul's bill? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wordsinthewind

      That's your alternative, you choose,

      States are already involved, on a very large scale. See that ferret up top? I paid for that. Not my state but me and fellow hunters and anglers in my state. We're happy to pay for the actual saving of species but we wish to spend our money a little more wisely and we want you to participate also.

      We'd also like to base our efforts on scientifically valid concepts. If we are paying the bill, and we are doing the work, the least we can expect is for the reasons and methods of our work to be based on science, not the emotions of some far away lady on some keyboard donating to baby seals.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 01:53:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  False choice (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mark Mywurtz

        IN other words the choice is fried shit or deep fried shit.  It's either gut the law or worse.  

        Here's an idea, how about strengthening the law?  

        You keep citing Democratic governors but three of those same governors have shown that they are not immune to special interests who could care less about preserving wildlife so long as it conflicts with their interests.  

        Thanks but no thanks.

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:45:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So the Democrats are no good (0+ / 0-)

          and the Republicans are no good
          The only folks who really understand are you and those like you and you are even having doubts about those like you.

          The ESA will be changed. It can be strengthened by making those parts that aren't working now, workable, or there is the Rand Paul version which is what you would like.

          Good luck with that.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:09:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ban nock, the great desire: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock

            one side or the other, will have a stupendous moral victory.

            Paulites: Zero endangered species and widespread rape of the land.  Fuck the American Black Footed Ferret and the Prairie Dog rode in on.

            Twue Believers: Zero mining, farming, ranching.  
            A vegan hiker's paradise will await the righteous, as we consume veggies and soy lattes from China, or Peru.

            Which by treaty, we have to respect their designation of Organic as whole-truth.  Either way, Monsanto® maintains a market advantage.

  •  Hi ban nock (7+ / 0-)

    I am real glad you wrote this diary because this issue deserves attention.

     I live in the Pacific NW where salmon are the crucial issue. The States' wishes be damned, it's essentially been Federal Judge Redden's own opinion of the Law that is preventing extinction of several salmon runs. When Redden retires, several salmon runs will probably perish.

    Its hard to tell if any other state or federal agency shares Redden's opinions.  Even with Redden's defense, some salmon runs were down from historic millions, to a handful of fish, just a few years ago.

    Moving inland to Nevada and vicinity, where I fought big mines for decades, the BLM and other federal agencies signed off on tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of lost habitat for the sage grouse (which is near becoming a listed species) and other desert critters, to allow dozens of copper, gold and metal mines, and now for the solar plants.

    In summary, I feel I've personally witnessed documentation of wholesale attacks on endangered (or about to be) species' habitats even with the law in full bloom. So I am worried that any tweaking of the Law will weaken it further, yet there's not much margin for error.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:33:52 PM PST

    •  I'm unfamiliar with the salmon issue, to the (0+ / 0-)

      extent of not even knowing there is an issue.

      Sage grouse seems to be an everywhere issue that no one can point to a cause. Lots of favorite bogey men but I've yet to see proof that one thing is it. I have heard that the much lower rates of cattle grazing across the west or the reduced level of predator control by WS might be causing it, but then that's it with theories, everyone has one.

      I too have been affected by an ESA run amok. It's been more a case of listing unendangered species than not listing them though.

      Like I say I'm unfamiliar with Radden, but in general I defer to the opinion of biologists. It's true they can have their studies and findings twisted or misused but their raw science is usually good. For scientists sometimes their biggest fear is the laughter of other scientists if they make stuff up or publish baloney.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:18:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nice buzzwords, but the reality is very (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mark Mywurtz

    different. "Sound science", for example, means issue more hunting licenses, take permits and real estate development permits. It is not based on actual sceince performed by out of state, apolitical populatin biologists with no interest in licensing revenues

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:23:04 AM PST

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