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Thanksgiving owl
At her blog, Ellen Brown—author of The Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth About Our Money System and How We Can Break Free and From Austerity to Prosperity: The Public Bank Solution—writes Monsanto, the TPP, and Global Food Dominance:

“Control oil and you control nations,” said US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger in the 1970s.  ”Control food and you control the people.”

Global food control has nearly been achieved, by reducing seed diversity with GMO (genetically modified) seeds that are distributed by only a few transnational corporations. But this agenda has been implemented at grave cost to our health; and if the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) passes, control over not just our food but our health, our environment and our financial system will be in the hands of transnational corporations.

According to an Acres USA interview of plant pathologist Don Huber, Professor Emeritus at Purdue University, two modified traits account for practically all of the genetically modified crops grown in the world today. One involves insect resistance. The other, more disturbing modification involves insensitivity to glyphosate-based herbicides (plant-killing chemicals). Often known as Roundup after the best-selling Monsanto product of that name, glyphosate poisons everything in its path except plants genetically modified to resist it.

Ellen Brown
Glyphosate-based herbicides are now the most commonly used herbicides in the world. Glyphosate is an essential partner to the GMOs that are the principal business of the burgeoning biotech industry. Glyphosate is a “broad-spectrum” herbicide that destroys indiscriminately, not by killing unwanted plants directly but by tying up access to critical nutrients.

Because of the insidious way in which it works, it has been sold as a relatively benign replacement for the devastating earlier dioxin-based herbicides. But a barrage of experimental data has now shown glyphosate and the GMO foods incorporating it to pose serious dangers to health. Compounding the risk is the toxicity of “inert” ingredients used to make glyphosate more potent. Researchers have found, for example, that the surfactant POEA can kill human cells, particularly embryonic, placental and umbilical cord cells. But these risks have been conveniently ignored.

The widespread use of GMO foods and glyphosate herbicides helps explain the anomaly that the US spends over twice as much per capita on healthcare as the average developed country, yet it is rated far down the scale of the world’s healthiest populations. The World Health Organization has ranked the US LAST out of 17 developed nations for overall health.

Sixty to seventy percent of the foods in US supermarkets are now genetically modified. By contrast, in at least 26 other countries—including Switzerland, Australia, Austria, China, India, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Italy, Mexico and Russia—GMOs are totally or partially banned; and significant restrictions on GMOs exist in about sixty other countries.

A ban on GMO and glyphosate use might go far toward improving the health of Americans. But the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a global trade agreement for which the Obama Administration has sought Fast Track status, would block that sort of cause-focused approach to the healthcare crisis.


Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2009Home Job a Good Gig, If You Can Find One:

I had a boss a decade ago who hated the idea of employees working from home. Hated it. Glared at me every time I suggested we let a few of our team work at home at least a couple of days a week. That team mostly comprised editors and, with an Internet hook-up, they could easily have accomplished their tasks in the basement in their jammies, with the Cheetos close at hand, if they so chose. In some cases, it would have saved them a two-hour round-trip commute. And cut down on their dry-cleaning bills.

It was all about control. He was the kind of boss who didn't believe his staff was working unless he could actually see them working. Didn't matter that their tasks had a required level of output whose quantity could be measured by how often deadlines were met or missed and whose quality was randomly scrutinized by us higher-ups, some of whom also could have worked from home. If Timbuktu had broadband, they could have edited from there. Even though my boss was a good deal younger than I, and should have been more with it, he stuck to this cramped, old-management style right up until the day he left the job. Just as he stuck to the view that people would never give up dead-tree newspapers for on-line coverage.


Tweet of the Day:

A Walmart Thanksgiving, by Charles Dickens http://t.co/...
@crooksandliars



Every Monday through Friday you can catch the Kagro in the Morning Show 9 AM ET by dropping in here, or you can download the Stitcher app (found in the app stores or at Stitcher.com), and find a live stream there, by searching for "Netroots Radio."


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Comment Preferences

  •  Oh happy birthday! (24+ / 0-)

    (If you're reading!)

    Thank you for all you do!

    "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT -9.62, -9.13

    by BeninSC on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:32:02 PM PST

    •  Scary, Thanks MB. (10+ / 0-)

      Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Gandhi

      by rebel ga on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:16:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's scary is that this made front page (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BrentBT, slacktivist, Tommy T

        There is so much misinformation here I don't know where to start. I guess at the beginning.

        The quoted article starts with a conspiracy theory: no global food control has not been achieved, and the difficulties of the third world are driven more by agricultural subsidies (which undercut local farmers by depressing world food prices), by climate change, and by soil erosion resulting from deforestation and overgrazing, which in turn are due to overpopulation. Nobody is forced to use or buy GM seed and farmers only do so so long as it increases their yields.

        The description of glyphosate's mechanism of action is misleading, it disables an enzyme within plants which is required for nutrient uptake, it does not cause nutrients in the soil to be bound or unavailable. Wait a few weeks and replant with seed (GM or otherwise) and the plants will grow fine, and access the nutrients in the soil without any issues.

        The surfactant related misinformation, as noted by others downthread comes from implying that surfactants killing cells is somehow news, many surfactants disrupt cell membranes and kill cells, they are even used for this purpose e.g. in many anti-bacterial personal care products, fortunately we have this stuff called skin that means tests on isolated cells in petri-dishes aren't a good indication of the toxicity of surfactants as they are actually used, and finally most agrochemicals are formulated with surfactants due to poor water solubility, this is not unique to glyphosate.

        Glyphosate is also an integral part of no-till agriculture, which greatly reduces soil erosion and increases carbon storage in the soil relative to traditional agriculture which uses tillage to clear land ready for sowing, breaking up the structure of the ground (leading to relatively greater erosion) and increasing aeration which drives breakdown of organic matter which releases carbon back into the air.

        There never have been and never will be any "dioxin based herbicides" dioxin in agent orange was present as an impurity caused by careless manufacturing and lack of purification in the manufacture of 2,4D which was one of the active ingredients in agent orange. 2,4D is still in use today and has not contained dioxin for decades.

        Then we get onto the worst part of this, when the author tries to put the blame for ill health and costly healthcare in the US on glyphosate and GM food. This is so wrong it verges on funny. The primary causes of ill health in America are poor diet (not the GM bit, the too much processed food especially sugar, which is everywhere,  and generally too much food bit) and inactivity driven by a car centred culture with very little public transport outside major cities and few options for walking due to town planning issues. I don't think the high healthcare costs need much explaining apart from poor lifestyle and a broken healthcare market (now somewhat improved by Obamacare/ healthcare reform, but bring on single payer/public option).

        Sorry for the mammoth post folks, but there was a science desert here and I know of what I speak on this subject. GM is a tool, it can be used for just about anything. Golden rice is a better use than roundup ready and other uses will come in the future if we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The biggest risk with it is loss of genetic diversity in crops, monocultures are prone to catastrophic crop failures, the Irish Potato Famine being the most devastating example I know of. GM is a tool, it has to be used with understanding and care, like any other.

        •  Good points and something you might... (0+ / 0-)

          like to incorporate into further points is the retraction recently by Food and Chemical Toxicology of an already questionable paper.  

          Here is PZ Myers on that: http://freethoughtblogs.com/...

        •  Not to belabor the point but (0+ / 0-)

          The claim that 60-70% of foods are genetically modified is specially constructed to misrepresent the actual state of affairs, which is that 60-70% of processed food products contain some amount of an ingredient derived from GM corn or soy. This means, usually, that they have some corn sugar in them or were cooked with soy oil (neither of which contain any residue of the proteins that result from their genetic modification).

          "If you desire peace, cultivate justice, but at the same time cultivate the fields to produce more bread; otherwise there will be no peace." Norman Borlaug

          by BrentBT on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 01:50:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  GMO and Healthcare costs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BrentBT

          The statement

          "...use of GMO foods and glyphosate herbicides helps explain the anomaly that the US spends over twice as much per capita on healthcare..."

          is also a fairly fact free sentence. There is zero evidence to support this assertion.

          I want to see GMO labeling and see GMO working towards better tasting healthier fruits and vegetables, but when the anti GMO people come up with articles like this, it's easy for them to be dismissed by people who know better.

          DNA modification is the most powerful technology humans have ever seen and should have regulations and oversight that to ensure public safety.

          But vomiting up a bunch of nonsense does nothing to support those ends. It only makes people who want tight regulations look foolish.

          But I'd also like to say it doesn't matter how much of the food supply has GMO products if I can't decide to eat them or not. Right now I have no choice because I have no idea what does or doesn't contain GMOs.

          Products contain country of origin and manufacturers labels.
          There is no reason to not have GMOs labeled except that the GMO and food companies know it will hurt their bottom line. I'm not afraid of eating GMOs. But I damn well want the option to do so. Right now we do not because governments have been too gutless to enact labeling.

          GMO companies, make your case for you product. Make the product better tasting, longer lasting and more nutritious. That is how you will convince people to buy your product.

  •  Owl-key (above). (5+ / 0-)

    "Hope you're all fucking satisfied. I look like a goddamned idiot."

    We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

    by franklyn on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:36:30 PM PST

    •  Charles Schultz or Gary Larson Could've Drawn That (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, high uintas, jan4insight, LinSea

      image. 2 masters of the silent furrowed brow.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:03:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Atrizine is way worse than glyphosate.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, BrentBT

        so replacing atrizine with glyphosate is overall not as bad.  Lesser of two evils.  

        Also, the reason no one pays attention to the fact that surfactants in roundup kill cells is that all surfactants kill cells by design.  They break up lipids, and cell membranes contain lipids.  Ever soap or detergent in your house kills cells in the same way.  The problem is the glyphosate does turn over pretty rapidly, but the surfactant accumulates in the soil.  The no-till agriculture is leading to soil compaction and changes to organisms like worms (themselves invasive species in some cases).

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 06:15:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lawn Treatments Make Worms Flee The Soil (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, murrayewv

          I literally see thousands of worms dying on the sidewalk when the neighbors have their lawn treatment.  How harsh do the chemical have to be make worms flee and die on the pavement?

          Oh, and there's no Roundup or GMOs involved.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 08:28:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I try to live lightly on the earth.... (0+ / 0-)

            and I don't treat any weeds except poison ivy.  And honestly, the Roundup doesn't work very well on the woody stems.  I have taken to going out early in the spring and cutting the sprouting poison ivy off close to the ground and carefully throwing it in the trash with the gloved hands.  I still get it about once a year from the garden.

            I think people growing their own food is important, so folks can understand how chancy it is.  This also adds healthful food to the mix.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 05:20:29 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  truly a tip of the iceberg(sic) problem (8+ / 0-)
    Global food control has nearly been achieved, by reducing seed diversity with GMO (genetically modified) seeds that are distributed by only a few transnational corporations. But this agenda has been implemented at grave cost to our health; and if the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) passes, control over not just our food but our health, our environment and our financial system will be in the hands of transnational corporations.
    Elizabeth Fitting, "Importing Corn, Exporting Labor: The Neoliberal Corn Regime, GMOs, and the Erosion of Mexican Biodiversity" Agriculture and Human Values
    Spring 2006, Volume 23, Issue 1, pp 15-26

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:36:45 PM PST

  •  Ask the mountains if they are happy ... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, rebel ga, LinSea, blueoasis

    with what we are doing down in the valleys.
    *
    *


    A mirror is facial recognition hardware. Your narcissism is the software.

    by glb3 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:37:33 PM PST

  •  Oooooooooohhhhhhh (7+ / 0-)

    my belly!!!!!!!!!

    (But worth every morsel I put in it)

    Hope everyone had a good day, turkey or not.

  •  So, did your young (but old-fashioned) boss... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, LinSea

    ...resign, or get fired? And how many other newspapers did he help kill?

  •  The TPP on the main page, hooray! (11+ / 0-)

    This is scary stuff, y'all. I know it's good for the big corporations, and maybe the donors, but there ain't anything in there that's good for jobs, human rights, or labor. Bill Clinton could be forgiven for falling for Monsanto's "genetically modified" pitch, because they sold him the idea of a second green revolution. They might even have believed it for a few years, although they shouldn't have, but now?

    Now? Don't we know much, much better?

    Everyone's innocent of some crime.

    by The Geogre on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:41:30 PM PST

  •  BUUUURRRRPPP!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Willinois, JeffW


    A mirror is facial recognition hardware. Your narcissism is the software.

    by glb3 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 08:44:15 PM PST

  •  Great day, weird ending (9+ / 0-)

    Caught the last hour of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - realized Benny Hill played the toymaker. And the Child Catcher looks like Ted Cruz. Fully expecting nightmares.
    Oh, and hope you had a happy, happy birthday Meteor Blades.

  •  The TPP stole my wallet! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Gooserock, high uintas, Jim P, geez53

    Is there bad anything TPP doesn't do?

    It's smart to raise the alarm now in case they try to rush it through Congress. I'll be interested to see what it really includes when it's introduced and what was rumor.

    •  It Doesn't Reverse Global Warming nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas, JeffW

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:06:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "They" would be Obama and Penny Pritzker (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WisePiper, blueoasis

      Were you aware that Obama is fast-tracking this despite it's terrible implications for our economy and environment worldwide?

      It's been described as "NAFTA on steroids".

      The US trade representative Michael Froman and Obama want to finalize the TPP by the end of the year and are pushing Congress to pass legislation soon that grants the president something called fast-track authority, which would allow him to sign the final trade agreement without Congress making any amendments to the pact. If Obama gets what he wants, Congress may not even be able to read the final version of the massive trade deal in its entirety until after lawmakers have signed away their rights to influence it. At that point, the two chambers will only be allowed an up-or-down vote to implement the international pact into domestic law. The administration says fast-track authority will assure other countries that the deal the United States has committed to after three years of negotiations won't be dismantled by American lawmakers who dislike some of the provisions. No major trade agreement has been finalized without it.

      But this week, about 151 House Democrats and 23 Republicans—many of them tea partiers—wrote letters to the administration saying this time they are unwilling to give the president carte blanche to "diplomatically legislate." If a couple dozen more lawmakers join the unlikely group of Dems and GOPers, the House could have enough votes to shoot down fast-track and derail the TPP. If Obama doesn't get the special trade powers, Congress will likely try to make some changes to the final pact, which could cause other countries to drop out of the deal.

      In a letter sent Wednesday, Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.) and about 150 of her colleagues said there has been too much secrecy surrounding the contents of this deal. They say they still don't know what the TPP contains when it comes to things like food security, financial reform, and labor protections. The US trade representative consults with members of Congress if they have questions about the deal, but unless lawmakers read the text of the final agreement, they will not know exactly how the TPP affects domestic policy. "We are not just here to rubber stamp what gets done" by trade negotiators, DeLauro told reporters last month.

      bolding mine
  •  Reprise (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    That's just the way it is:

    http://youtu.be/...

    Originally created as part of the New Deal, the Farm Security Administration was an effort during the Depression to combat rural poverty. Although it failed, the Farm Security Administration is well known to this day for the influence of its photography program, which spanned the years from 1935-1944. During this propaganda campaign, photographers and writers were hired to report and document the plight of the poor farmer. Under Roy Stryker, the Information Division of the FSA adopted a goal of "introducing America to Americans." Many of the most famous Depression-era photographers were fostered by the FSA project, including Walker Evans, Dorothea Lange, and Gordon Parks. Since many of the images appeared in popular magazines, the FSA photography project is the project most responsible for creating the image of the Depression in the United States.

    Del McCourys newest album tries to capture the stories of these forgotten people, who still exist today—the small-town farmers and the rural Americans of the South, on whose backs our economy has rested for a long time. In it, he has compiled a number of songs and artists whose work reflects that social consciousness. The song included in this film is a rendition of Bruce Hornsbys The Way It Is, accompanied by the Fairfield Four.

    This music video is shot in the same vein of social realism with a documentary focus that permeated the work of the FSA photographers. When coupled with the soundtrack, the film begs the question Sure, thats the way it is nowbut is that the way it has to be?

    "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

    by Timbuk3 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:02:55 PM PST

  •  ridiculous (13+ / 0-)
    The widespread use of GMO foods and glyphosate herbicides helps explain the anomaly that the US spends over twice as much per capita on healthcare as the average developed country, yet it is rated far down the scale of the world’s healthiest populations.
    The author Ellen Brown offers no references to explain this extraordinary leap of logic. I mean, how exactly do herbicides cause hospital and insurance industry price gouging?

    Her credentials as a lawyer and author of books about international banking don't establish her as any kind of authority whatsoever in the field of genetics.

    •  Correct (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slouchsock, charliehall2, mikidee

      It's just silly.

    •  I'm glad I wasn't the only one ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slouchsock

      I think GM technology has proven itself dangerous for a host of reasons, but that ridiculous unsupported causation about US healthcare costs will make me ignore everything Ms. Brown says or ever will say.

    •  Complete Lack Of Concern About Credibility (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sky Net

      Preach to the choir, then pass the collection plate.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:02:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think about this a lot.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, BrentBT

        and have reached the conclusion that big food (making processed, heavily sugared, salted and fat enriched foods) and fast food is a much bigger health problem than big agriculture.  There is a long history of plant breeders recognizing the need to preserve genetic diversity of cultivars, so we are able to breed that back into crops.  In addition, home gardeners are expanding, and they  also preserve diversity.  I agree, eating less beef and other meat is a good idea for health.  I think big agriculture has expanded fied sizes into the former hedgerows between fields, where trees and shrubs and wildflowers and milkweed grew.  That greens ace was a place where birds and other animals lived.  For corporate farms, that was wasted space.  For family farmers, that kept land for hunting.  It was hard to clear or after plowing, the place they tossed fieldstones.  So when monarchs are missing, it is corporate agriculture not just herbicides and GMOs.

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:01:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed, and on this same train, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          catilinus, murrayewv

          The food industry is serving our own efforts to kill ourselves by overindulgence. Big food goes hand in hand with our eating habits as Americans because there is a supply and demand relationship. People eat too much starchy, sugary salty food and gorge on beef, so the industry makes more (and advertises the availability). And, lo and behold, we have more obese people, more diabetics, more heart disease, etc. Its all in the USDA and CDC annual reports. The great thing is, there is nothing mysterious about the relationship between these things: decades of controlled, peer reviewed medical studies have provided us with solid public knowledge about the causality here. Given this, I'm always amazed that anyone feels the need to posit far-fetched theories about GMOs and leaky guts and correlations with every major illness. I imagine, boring as it seems, that these aspects of the American diet can explain our current predisposition for lots of health problems. If people would put their money where their mouths are, stop eating fast food and processed junk, cook their own meals and put lots of fresh veggies in them, not only would we be far heathier, but we would also cause the food industry to change in order to meet demand.

  •  Poisoning us all (8+ / 0-)

    Please don't poison the liberal blogosphere with anti-GMO nonsense. We've already got one anti-science party, we don't need two. Tying it in with shady conspiracy theories to "control the people" doesn't help your reputation either.

    Those who ignore the future are condemned to repeat it.

    by enigmamf on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:19:18 PM PST

    •  OK (4+ / 0-)

      So last night I'm watching a program on one of our PBS stations, an education based small PBS. I watched a story about India's cotton growing area and what has happened to the farmers there.

      The problem is that the farmers only have access to GMO seeds and they have to buy them as the plants they grow are sterile. So if there is a bad year the farmers have to borrow to buy more seed.

      To top it all off the area gets its water from the monsoon season, but GMO cotton does better with an irrigation style watering program. The GMO cotton produces better yields plant for plant but only if the conditions are right for them to produce.

      All this adds up to crushing and growing debt that the farmers carry. As a result the area is rife with suicides.

      "The total number of farmers who have taken their own lives in Maharashtra since 1995 is closing in on 54,000. Of these 33,752 have occurred in nine years since 2003, at an annual average of 3,750," the Hindu reports.
      There is more to the story of GMO seeds and produce that whether that apple you ate is "scary". It is a way for large companies to control economies and people's lives.

      And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

      by high uintas on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:49:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  GMO cotton dramatically reduces pesticide use (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nextstep, vmdairy

        http://are.berkeley.edu/...

        http://wwwdata.forestry.oregonstate.edu/...

        http://www.nature.com/...

        We can't complain about the anti-science Rethugs on evolution and global warming when we are doing the same thing with GMOs.

        •  It's not anti science (6+ / 0-)

          to question giving so much power to a few companies, to Monsanto specifically. I'm not against GMO as a concept, I am against how it's been used to leverage control over crops and farmers.

          And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:04:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  My recollection is that in trials in (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, jan4insight

          India, organic cotton economically outperformed GMO or conventional cotton (or gave similar results) after a 2 to 3 year conversion period. But the chemical issues for cotton only begin with pesticide use. Cotton -- even GMO cotton is still called "the dirtiest crop in the world" for a reason.

          See Eyhorn, international Journal of Agricultural Sustainability (2007)

          We can't complain about the anti-science Rethugs on evolution and global warming when we're cherry picking, either.

          "Broccoli could take down a government. Broccoli is revolutionary." --Kris Carr

          by rb137 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:28:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  problem is GMO is magical-thinking junk $cience (5+ / 0-)

          and it's a bit weird to pretend that because it uses the methods of science in a very narrow and limited way that it in fact constitutes science aka 'knowing.'

          Science -- the real science, not $cience -- has informed us all that eco-systems are very very complex and introducing a small change can have enormous impact on the health, even viability.

          Science -- real science -- has taught us that you often have to wait generations to see the results of any tinkering. No such studies have been done, though we've all been volunteered without our knowledge or will to be in the very first.

          Science -- not the bullshit $cience -- has shown that even in the tiny area of pesticide use reduction, that what is happening is that pests eventually change enough to accomodate the 'new thing.'

          Science, not $cience, has been practiced very thoroughly in a few dozen nations regarding GMOs and the scientists said 'don't use this shit, it's suspect.'

          The reality of human relations has shown -- entirely conclusively, inarguably -- that populations dependent on GMO crops find themselves economically enslaved to a bunch of... I think the scientific term is "shitstains," posing as $cientists.

          There's nothing to make any of the real world go away.


          Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

          by Jim P on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 12:25:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Very few scientists think it is suspect.... (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Urban Owl, ORDem, slouchsock, Tommy T, enigmamf

            as in toxic to humans.  Twenty years of GMO consumption has revealed no health harm from bt or glyphosate resistant gene products.  Folks in Europe want to keep their farming, not have it become demolished by free trade.  They have used GMO health fear to do this.  In doing so, they have removed some economic impetus to develop disease resistant varieties and drought resistant varieties which would further increase crop yields.  Many disease resistant and drought resistant genes never even make a protein.  They just make an antisense RNA.  So the harm done by the false promotion of GMOs as dangerous exists because the world doesn't encourage trade protectionism.  As a scientist, I agree that there are good economic reasons to want an independent local agriculture with family farms, less pesticide and herbicides, sustainable crop rotation, organic fertilizers- the whole nine yards.  But I resent being told GMOs dare the only issue.  They are potentially the solution to many problems, if USDA researchers could use the technology for crop improvement.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:13:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Conventional Cotton Is Chemical Warfare (0+ / 0-)

          ... that's the way I heard an agronomist describe it years before the introduction of GMO cotton.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 08:29:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  indeed, this is the real danger of GMO (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, high uintas

        They are a way for giant global corporations to grab more of the vertical process of agricultural production and monopolize even more economic/social/political power.

        Nearly all of the anti-GMO arguments that I hear are just anti-science nonsense akin to the whole "vaccines cause autism!!!" horse shit.

        But this one is not.

        It's not the biological or environmental effects of genetic technology that have proven to be dangerous---it is the social and economic effects.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 04:43:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  There is a distressing problem here, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas

        But it isn't caused by high tech seeds. What the kind of report you cite doesn't tell you is that farmer suicide in India is a constant. What is even more shocking is that the rate of farmer suicide is only half the overall per capita rate in India. It is a huge crisis, but it is not really about agriculture. There is a useful story about this recently in the Indian news media (see link).

          •  They question (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JeffW, Another Grizzle

            if the farmers don't like the GM seeds why don't they abandon them. The report I saw showed the place where they buy seeds and found that there were no other kinds available and remember, GM cotton is sterile you can't produce your own seed stock.

            There is more at work, but the GM seed story repeats itself in other countries including our own. Look into the use of it in our midwest and the loss of independent seed retailers. Companies like Monsanto want to control agriculture, why else would they push to have a bill in Congress to make them immune to prosecution?

            It is a big complicated problem and GMO plants are a part of it.

            And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

            by high uintas on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:52:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  BrentBT (0+ / 0-)

          It is also about government actions and corruption. The GMO scam is enabled by the government and thru them the debt is accrued. I agree that it is more than just about GMO, but in the story I watched that was the vehicle being used to destroy those people.

          And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

          by high uintas on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:46:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Oh god I just woke up with a crushed lamp (5+ / 0-)

    shade and a greasy turkey drumstick. That's it. No turkey ever again.

  •  The Indian Rezervations are looking (0+ / 0-)

    pretty good.  Should the TPP prevail - and there's damn little to suggest it won't - I do not see how we foot soldiers fight the good fight against the Ubers and Filthys (rich).  Pretty much game over at that point.  Head for the Rez and learn from the natives how they've survived on nothing for nearly two hundred years.

    •  there is a way to fight--and it's already (0+ / 0-)

      being done.

      Another excerpt from my diary series on the history of corporations:

      As we have seen, some sections of the progressive movement are already working to unify the anti-corporate forces at the international level—the “fair trade” movement seeks to form global alliances of environmental, human rights, and other grassroots citizen groups, in an effort to force the inclusion of provisions into trade agreements guaranteeing effective ecological and human protection. Such laws cannot be effectively won at the national level, however—in places where that has been attempted, the WTO has swiftly stepped in and vetoed the “restriction on free trade”. In response, progressive organizations have therefore been forced to focus on international efforts which seek to alter the global trade rules themselves.

      So far, only one international effort has been able to successfully take on the entire global WTO structure and beat it to a standstill—the G20+ bloc. From the point of view of progressivism, of course, the G20+ coalition’s successful derailing of the Dohan Process is but a hollow victory, since the members of that alliance are the wealthy elite of the developing nations who are merely defending their own selfish economic interests, and their interests often have little to do with the democratic interests of their own people. The G20+ delegates don’t want stronger labor or environmental regulations—they are just as eager as the corporations to maintain low-wage unregulated business climates. What the global fair trade movement must do is duplicate the ability of the G20+ group to unify globally around a common program, but towards democratic goals rather than in the interests of the economic elites. The collapse of the Dohan Process proved that the supra-nationals can be beaten. It is now up to the people of the world to beat them.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 04:49:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's discouraging is that our own (0+ / 0-)

        Representatives in Congress don't seem to give a flying f*ck.  Hell, they're likely cheering it on.  And, what's even better, for that icing on the cake of this p.o.s. is that protest is not allowed, and should one (or more) try they will be sued.  Now that right there is some damn fine democracy at work.  ok, not.  I think I'll just call it a day and head for the Rez.  I'm getting too old to fight these asshats.
        Hopefully the 30-somethings and 40-somethings can carry on the good fight.  I'll learn me how to hunt some rattle snake for the grill.

  •  From the mouth of babes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda, blueoasis, Yo Bubba

    All the time I was with my recently passed wife, all her kids adults all profess how I would always be a part of the family.

     I got 1 call today from a step grand-daughter who used to spend the summers with us. So much for the love of family, it is fleeting at best while most times it appears a fantasy we wish for gone bad.

    "the government's role should be to uplift, enlighten, educate and ennoble the citizen, not oppress them with taxation and intrusive laws," Gatewood Galbraith, Historic Marijuana Advocate, aka "The Last Free Man In America," RIP 1-3-12

    by SmileySam on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:31:47 PM PST

    •  I am so sorry to hear this, I think your late wife (0+ / 0-)

      would be disappointed in her children for not calling you and keeping their promise to you.  I think she would have wanted them to be there for you and include you.

      That is sad that with their mother gone, they are not thinking what their mom would have wanted and what you meant to them.

      In a much much smaller way, we saw that happen after m mother died with her siblings and their children..it was like Mom never had any children. One their sister was gone, so were we. Mom would have been livid. I know that for a fact. ..as Mom told me before she died, she had asked all of them to include us and be there for us.

      Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

      by wishingwell on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:04:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hoping you had both a joyous Thanksgiving (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell

    and a Happy Birthday. May you have many more.


    "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013
    TheStarsHollowGazette.com

    by TheMomCat on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:32:09 PM PST

  •  Really need to follow science on GMOs (11+ / 0-)

    I'm noticing a very disturbing trend on the left of knee-jerk alarmism on GMOs and not following and paying attention to scientists who actually understand genetics and/or agriculture. GMOs is a complex topic - but fundamentally it's a tool and another way to manipulate crops - like we have been doing through traditional breeding for over 10000 years. There's nothing natural about agriculture. Some GM modifications may be good, some less good, all are being used because farmers are buying the seeds. Glyphosate is far less nasty than other herbicides. Grist has a good look at the complex situation of GMOs and the herbicide resistance trait:

    http://grist.org/...

    But on pesticides GMOS have made things better:
    of GMOS and pests.

    http://grist.org/...

    The grist articles are good in general, like this general post about just how different GMOs are:

    http://grist.org/...

    And why farmers actually grow them:

    http://grist.org/...

  •  Sorry, but I see no science behind (9+ / 0-)

    the anti-GMO scare propaganda.

    I'm no fan at all of Monsanto, but "improving the health of Americans"? Show some evidence for that before you publicize that claim.

  •  Happy birthday MB (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Meteor Blades

    And many many many more.

    I'm thankful that you're better, and that you're back writing here.

    Being attentive to the needs of others might not be the point of life, but it is the work of life. It can be ... almost impossibly difficult. But it is not something we give. It is what we get in exchange for having to die. - Jonathan Safran Foer

    by ramara on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 09:57:42 PM PST

  •  Everything Leads To Anti-GMO Comspiracy Theory (7+ / 0-)

    Anyone with an autoimmune or inflammatory disease will eventually end up at a conspiracy theory web site that blames their health problems on GMOs and chemtrails and HAARP, and it'll blame GMOs for cancer and autism and dead honeybees.

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:17:30 PM PST

    •  that's because everything leads to anti-corporate (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      charliehall2

      ideology.

      Sadly, many on the left will swallow anything, no matter how unsubstantiated or silly it is, as long as it blames the people we already don't like--the corporations.

      It's rather like the Birchers, who will also swallow any silly damn conspiracy theory as long as it blames the Commies.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 04:53:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Did Miracle on 34th Street play on any cable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    stations today? I normally run across it just by changing channels but I don't think anyone aired it today. Got to be a first for Thanksgiving.

  •  Long story, but Thanksgiving dinner (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, murrayewv

    ended up being at Denny's. (I decided to have steak instead of turkey; Mr. Scribe promised to take me somewhere nice this weekend to make up for my otherwise craptastic holiday.)

    Coming home, we decided to make a drive by past the nearby Target and Macy's. Both quite busy, so I guess the opening Thanksgiving evening will be worth it. (At least they opened late enough that their employees probably got some sort of family time, if they ate mid-afternoon during the Raiders game.)

    Going to brave Black Friday crowds, but not till 9am -- need to hit JoAnn's for some crafting stuff (crochet hooks and maybe some more crochet thread, plus stiffening solution; decided I'm going to try and do snowflakes this year as small gifts for friends because I can fit them in holiday cards easily). Also some good acrylic yarn to whip up a few hats for cancer patients -- would love to do men's hats especially because there is usually a need for those especially in the winter. Tomorrow evening I'll head over to JC Penney's because my mom-in-law needs some more pull-on pants. Saturday for Small Business Saturday I'm going to visit one of my favorite yarn shops in their new location (Green Planet Yarns); Mr. Scribe said that if I make him a scarf for Christmas he will actually wear it, so I want good quality yarn for that (his favorite color coincidentally is green).

    So what I'm shopping for tomorrow is pretty much necessities -- yarn's on sale at JoAnn's but that's pretty much the only Black Friday bargain I'm shopping for. No cheap TVs or computers at Walmart or Kmart or whatever, or latest fad toy at Toys R Us.

    There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

    by Cali Scribe on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 11:04:43 PM PST

  •  Small Biz Insurance Brokers, Part 2 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    Intended to assist those small businesspersons looking to get the tax credits for their employees' insurance plans:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

    by Phoenix Woman on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 11:42:42 PM PST

  •  I have one of those work at home jobs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    Although I am self employed and so do not have to report to a boss in an office.

    Mind you, I do work in my basement, but at least it is a proper office style set-up with office furniture. I have the creature comforts I need, and set my own hours. I find it more productive to work late at night, which gives me more freedom during the day (and insomnia when I try to sleep on normal human hours).

    I don't work in jammies, and I haven't eaten Cheetos in decades.

    I love it.

    I'm shopping for a new sig line. Watch this space.

    by lotac on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 11:53:40 PM PST

  •  it's not just Monsanto (3+ / 0-)

    An excerpt from a diary series I did a while ago on the history of corporations:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    By 2000, however, the global agricultural sector was undergoing changes. In the 1990s, there was an international land grab, as agribusiness, supported by governments in Asia and the Middle East, began buying up cheap land in South America, Australia, central Asia and Africa. For the governments, this was seen as a way to increase the food supply for their own people (at the expense of the land-owning nation); for the corporations, it was an opportunity for easy money.

    China has played a particularly large role. Although China has 40% of the world’s farmers, it only has 9% of the world’s arable land—and Chinese farmers are further hampered by the relative lack of government investment in agriculture compared to the manufacturing sector that fuels the Chinese economy. In 2008, the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture began considering deliberate plans to outsource China’s staple food production. In the past ten years, about 30 Chinese-backed companies have been buying up large tracts of land elsewhere, including Africa and Central Asia. Local farm-workers are hired to grow rice, maize, or soybeans on Chinese-owned land, and although some of the resulting foodstuffs are sold within the host nation, a large proportion of it is exported back to China.

    The Middle-Eastern countries are carrying out similar plans. They import virtually all of their food from Europe, and have seen the costs of imported food rise steadily. As desert nations, they have few agrarian resources of their own, but they have lots of oil money, and so are in the position to buy their own cheaper food production elsewhere. A number of Arab nations have formed the Gulf Cooperation Council, which offers money and oil in exchange for access to farmland in places like Sudan, Pakistan, southeast Asia, and the former central Asian Soviet republics.

    Japan and Korea are also attempting to solve their food difficulties by outsourcing production. Korea is able to grow much of its own rice, but imports 90% of all its other foodstuffs. In 2008, the South Korean government began facilitating the purchase of farmland in Mongolia, Russia, Sudan, and Argentina for production of food to be exported back to Korea.  Japan, meanwhile, strictly maintains its centuries-old tradition of family-owned small rice farms, and forbids large corporations from entering the industry. But as the native agrarian sector becomes more and more unable to meet Japan’s domestic needs, the Japanese government is aiding some of its large corporations, including Mitsubishi, Asahi, Mitsui, Sumimoto, Itochu and Marubeni, to purchase facilities abroad to produce for the Japanese market. In the past few years, Marubeni bought a number of grain-storage warehouses in the US, so it can purchase grain directly from US farmers and cut out the large agribusiness middle-men. The Japanese are particularly focusing on China, where they have purchased millions of acres of farmland. Asahi has obtained a portion of the Chinese dairy industry, and Itochu has a joint venture with the Chinese government to produce agricultural machinery and land acquisitions. Mitsui owns 40% of Multigrain SA, and used it to buy 100,000 hectares of farmland in Brazil for soybean production.

    In the wake of the 2007 financial collapse, many investors are turning to the international land market. Goldman-Sachs has invested heavily in the Chinese livestock industry, while the American financial giant BlackRock has set up a $200 million hedge fund specifically to invest in foreign agricultural resources. The fertile areas of the former Soviet Union have been particularly attractive. In the past few years, the Russian financial company Renaissance Capital, the Swedish companies Black Earth Farming and Alpcot-Agro, the American finance company Morgan Stanley, and the British company Landkom have all invested heavily in Ukrainian farmland. About ten percent of Ukraine’s entire arable land is now owned or contracted for by just 25 companies, nearly all of them foreign.

    In Vietnam, some 40 percent of the entire rice crop and 90 percent of the dairy industry is now carried out under contract with foreign companies; in Brazil, three-fourths of poultry production is done under foreign contract.

    In all of these cases, the host nation’s land and labor are used primarily to produce food and other agricultural products for the export market, usually to the contractor’s home nation. In some cases, the control is direct; the Chinese company DaChan, the second-largest producer of chickens in the world, has an exclusive contract to supply McDonalds, while Hortifruiti, the largest producer of fruits and vegetables in Central America, was recently bought by WalMart, which has been adding grocery sections to its “superstores”.

    And it is not just food production that has been spurring this international land grab—about one-fourth of the total increase in global agricultural production over the past 20 years is in biofuels. A large portion of the recently-acquired agrarian land is intended for soybeans, corn and sugar cane—not for human consumption, but for the production of biodiesels and biomass fuels.

    As a result, an entirely new generation of large agribusiness corporations are appearing which, while not yet able to topple the older giants like Nestle or Monsanto, are growing at rapid paces. These include the Brazilian company JBS and the Chinese company Shineway.

    The increasing domination of world agricultural production by supra-national corporations not only means the destruction of subsistence farming, the increased dependence of non-industrialized nations upon a monoculture export market, and the increased flow of food to profitable wealthy markets and decreased food for unprofitable poor nations—it symbolizes the rising power of a supra-national corporate financial and economic structure, outside of and above any national government.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 03:54:04 AM PST

  •  the danger with GMO isn't health (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Urban Owl, murrayewv, Killer

    (There's no scientific data whatever that GMO is a health risk, and most of the arguments the left makes against GMO  demonstrate an ignorance of basic biology and science).

    The danger with GMO is social---it is another tool used by global agribusiness to establish dominance over the entire economic/political structure.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 03:56:55 AM PST

  •  opposition to TPP is 20 years too late (0+ / 0-)
    if the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) passes, control over not just our food but our health, our environment and our financial system will be in the hands of transnational corporations.
    Already done. The TPP is a regional agreement, not a global one, and all it does it apply the same policies and standards already in the 20-odd OTHER regional trade agreements that have already been passed--and all the parts we don't like (negotiated in secret, gives veto power to corporations, is undemocratic and cannot be appealed) were already passed in the WTO treaty way back in 1995.

    I did a diary on this years ago, as part of my series on the history of corporations:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 04:02:13 AM PST

  •  oh really? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Urban Owl, charliehall2

    "The widespread use of GMO foods and glyphosate herbicides helps explain the anomaly that the US spends over twice as much per capita on healthcare as the average developed country, yet it is rated far down the scale of the world’s healthiest populations. "
    This is a very broad statement presented with little proof.  

  •  Round-up is destroying the food chain from the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    geez53, JeffW, Another Grizzle

    ground up.  A vast multitude of insects depend upon all sorts of 'weeds' that traditional crop management still allowed to at least subsist.  The collapse of Monarch butterfly populations is just the start, and of course insects don't exist in a vacuum.  They're food for smaller birds, mammals, reptiles.

    We can't simply sterilize large swathes of the world and then replant them in our monocultures that are the only thing able to live in the sterile zone and still have sustainability of life.

    •  true, all---but this has nothing to do with GMO (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      murrayewv, Urban Owl

      Roundup was invented long before GMO was--and it was destroying environments long before GMO appeared.

      Heck, DDT and Dieldrin were destroying the food chain long before Roundup or GMO was even conceived of.

      GMO's effect is mostly social, economic and political--not environmental.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 05:04:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  GMO grain didn't just "appear" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Another Grizzle

        It is a self-interested, profit driven corporate response to another self-interested, profit driven corporate  screw-up.

        GMO grains permanently alter the natural grains in the next field through cross pollination. Then Monsanto sues the natural grain grower for patent  infringement and has his seed stocks confiscated, shortly followed by a seed salesperson with just-in-time seed delivery deal.

        Yes, GMO tech is an interesting exercise in human intellectual ability, but so far, it's just another link in a chain of destructive greed and hubris.

        21st Century America: The distracted, superficial perception of a virtual reality. Gettov Milawn

        by geez53 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 06:07:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well of course (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BornAgainPagan, slouchsock
          GMO grains permanently alter the natural grains in the next field through cross pollination. Then Monsanto sues the natural grain grower for patent  infringement and has his seed stocks confiscated, shortly followed by a seed salesperson with just-in-time seed delivery deal.
          That is a social, economic and political effect an intended one--since it tightens Monsanto's grip on the entire vertical process of food production in exactly the same way Standard Oil did with petroleum production).

          But all the environmental damage from GMO crops comes from the Roundup that is sprayed on it, not from the modified genes themselves.

          And Roundup existed long before GMO did. Roundup does the same damage whether it's sprayed on GMOs or on plain ole ordinary run-of-the-mill unmodified crops.

          Blaming GMO for the damage caused by Roundup is like blaming grass for the damage caused by fertilizer runoff.  It's silly.

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 06:27:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Greenpeaces And Activists Demand Contamination (0+ / 0-)

          The first thing the seed companies did 20 years ago was to design seed-sterile and pollen-sterile varieties but Greenpeace pitched an absolute fit over it.  

          whatever problem there is with cross contamination is there because Greenpeace demanded it.

          And that's how Greenpeace makes money.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:16:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've worked for Greenpeace (0+ / 0-)

            For those of us who have actually seen Greenpeace paychecks, "They do it for the money!!!!" is absolutely the most hilariously idiotic  thing ever.

            Monsanto makes more in a month than Greenpeace does all year.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:23:29 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  besides . . . (0+ / 0-)

              according to the oil companies, Greenpeace makes all its oodles and oodles of money by making up fake "global warming" data.

              (snicker)

              In the end, reality always wins.

              by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:43:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Not Putting Their Resources Into New Material (0+ / 0-)

              because the stuff they peddle literally has not changed in 30 years.

              The only thing that's changed is that all the real problems of environmental destruction have gotten exponentially worse while Greenpeace provides pointless distraction.

              if I owned a coal company, I would be mailing checks to Greenpeace for keeping the Trader Joes crowd off my back.

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 08:11:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  ps--I seriously doubt that Monsanto has ever done (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JeffW, geez53

            anything, anywhere, at any time, ever, "because activists demanded it !!!!"

            Monsanto has proven over and over and over and over again that it simply doesn't give a flying fuck what anybody thinks.  (shrug)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:28:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Atrizine is much worse than roundup..... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tommy T

        more persistent and dangerous at lower doses.  It is an endocrine disrupted.  Replacing atrizine is a good idea.  Some anti GMO folks have lost sight of the big picture.  It is important to look at the whole ecosystem and sustainability.

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:21:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hard to promote/gain an understanding of the (3+ / 0-)

      problem when so few have a "total cycle" frame of food source.

      When you say food today, most imagine a bright, clean, properly organized grocery aisle or the drive-thru menu billboard. They don't see a handful of dirt full of icky worms, microbial beasties, root systems or large animals fattening for the slaughter. Some may know that in a cursory way, but they have lost or never had the real connection. They can barely get past jhaving dirty hands. If they truly understood, they'd know the delicacy of the natural web.

      We disturb it our peril.

      No i'm not a Luddite, (comment box, website, Intel Inside), but i always measure changes to millions of years of nature's evolution with a sustainable viability gauge. GMO/herbicide/pesticide, so far, is all hubris, profit and dangerous over population.

      21st Century America: The distracted, superficial perception of a virtual reality. Gettov Milawn

      by geez53 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 05:43:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sigh... (5+ / 0-)

    I love DK but whenever there is a post about GMO the science is absurd.

    The anti-science left is killing people with the garbage being uttered about GMO and vaccines. It's disenheartening to see the progressive movement being hijacked.

    We can talk about the poor business practices of Monsanto without bringing in junk science.

    Trying to link America's cost of healthcare and overall wellbeing with GMO is laughable.

    Why does peer review go out the window at DK if it is one of the pet subjects of the anti-science crowd?

    Science isn't a democracy but, if it were: 98%

    That's the percentage of scientists that think GMOs are safe, Climate Change is man made, and that vaccines are safe.

    Dont' argue that Climate Change is occurring and not subscribe to the other two. Same science. Same peer review.

    For the lay person: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/...

    For the scientist:
    http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/...

    •  Real liberals see the value of science (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tommy T

      I am so relieved to read comments like the above. There is so much wanton disregard of science in the web space when it comes to agriculture and medicine I had begun to despair. The truth is, real liberals will not be antiscience because they know that science is the key democratic process for the creation of public knowledge. In discussions like these, without science, we have no common knowledge to draw upon. We can only resort to anecdote and personal opinion, which is no basis for policy.

  •  This adds to the confusion (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slacktivist

    "I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night..."

    by Killer on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:40:38 AM PST

    •  Science works (0+ / 0-)

      I get what you're saying. Some people, like Seralini, try to game the system. It took a while, but look: the scientific community made the correction. There is sometimes corruption, but the beauty of the scientific enterprise is that it is big and broad and competitive enough that it tends to root out fabrications and half truths in time.

      My contention is that we are collectively screwed if we start dissing science, especially when it comes to decision making about technologies. I mean, if someone claims that GMO corn sugar is responsible for everything that used to be caused by vaccines and we should ban them, how will we settle this democratically? By asking your Grandma? Your favorite osteopath? Your dance instructor? A retired guy who people call Dr? Obviously we need to hear what the scientific community has determined to be the most well-supported understanding on the issue, hear all the caveats, and make a decision based on these data. Maybe they'll say they don't know, and them we'll tell them to go find out.

      "If you desire peace, cultivate justice, but at the same time cultivate the fields to produce more bread; otherwise there will be no peace." Norman Borlaug

      by BrentBT on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 01:29:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why do you contend the linked article? (0+ / 0-)

        PZ Myers is unlikely to be the one to 'diss science'.  He's dissing bad science and the piss-poor vetting by the peer-review process of a very specific journal.  

        •  No disagreement (0+ / 0-)

          I think what the article says is fine, and doesn't contradict anything I've said above either. I'm pretty sure we are on the same page here.

          "If you desire peace, cultivate justice, but at the same time cultivate the fields to produce more bread; otherwise there will be no peace." Norman Borlaug

          by BrentBT on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 02:04:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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