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Mall of America management threatens to arrest participants in Idle No More's second annual round dance celebration on Dec. 31, 2013!

THIS IS AN ACTION DIARY REQUESTING IMMEDIATE INVOLVEMENT IN WHATEVER WAY FITTING and/or FEASIBLE!

IDLE NO MORE event participants have been threatened with arrest by Mall of America management for plans to exercise freedom of speech, peaceful assembly, the secular celebration of religious beliefs in “the public square” at the Mall of America in Bloomington, IL.

From a press release issued by Idle No More Duluth

MALL OF AMERICA THREATENS `IDLE NO MORE’ ORGANIZERS WITH ARREST, PROMISES `ADDITIONAL ACTIONS’ TO `PROHIBIT… GATHERING’ IF NEW YEARS EVE ROUND DANCE PROCEEDS

The incident has been reported on here by the Northland News Center This report includes a full text of the letter received by event organizers on Dec. 23!  

And here, at NativeNewsOnline.net

More below the fold.

Already last year, in an article published by the Duluth News Tribune  Idle No More-Duluth founder Reyna Crow clarified in eloquently educational terms the intent and meaning of a “round dances” in the American Indian cultural context as they have found recent expression in flash mob form throughout the country and the world:

A flash mob is a large group of people who gather, ideally in an instant, to perform a unified action in a public place, often a song or dance. In this case, participants are performing a round dance.

“The round dances were a family event,” explains Joe Sutherland, a member of the Duluth Anishinaabeg community, who is from Canada. “In the wintertime, the men in each family would sing songs. ... It was told in the creation stories that the spirits communicate through songs. This is why we carry these traditions; this is why we sing today.”

Crow is co-founder of the Northwoods Wolf Alliance in Northern Minnesota , with a degree in economics from the University of Wisconsin, and is founder of Idle No More Duluth.
.

Already in January of this year, Crow went on record (see above) clarifying the nature and intent of the round dance flash mobs organized by Idle No More:

The round dance is a wonderful and unifying experience to either observe or participate in, and the planned jingle dress dance is truly a gift from the Anishinaabeg community to all people of Duluth. We should not only embrace this gift of healing, but join in the spirit of hope, for a better future for all of us, in which it is intended.
And points to the mutually beneficial exchange with retailers in the events' ability to generate publicity and stimulate revenue: it's a win-win between the dancers and mall patrons. As Reyna Crow points out:
There have been some reports of flash mobs held with the intent of causing violence or destruction. For the most part, however, those intended as art or political or social statements seem to be enjoyed by passersby, and have been tolerated by the management of the malls or stores where they occasionally take place. They can draw large numbers of people who tend to spend money and, if positive in nature, can bring substantial publicity to the venues.
Idle No More’s Flash Mob Round Dances at the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN were some of the most memorable of dances celebrated round the world in celebration of the sacred spirit of peace

Striking about this video is the resounding response from Mall of America clientele: the roar of support is not coming from the inner circle of participants in the round dance on the lower level, but rather from the crowds gathered to observe and/or participate on all levels of the facility: patrons of the Mall of America erupt in thunders of applause in this video. Participants in the round dance on the ground floor of the mall are merely performing a round dance.

At last year’s Idle No More Round Dance at Mall of America , people of all colors, creeds, cultures and commercial orientations joined together in song to experience a secular celebration of (Native American) religious beliefs much in the same way Christmas carolers—often in exquisitely flash mob-form at major shopping centers, transportation hubs and other public places throughout the country, and indeed throughout the world.

Despite the success of last year’s event, Reyna and several of her colleagues found an unexpected lump of coal beneath their trees this year: a letter from the management of the Mall of America threatening the arrest of participants in this year’s planned event.

The planned event was never designated as a protest, or a political statement, but, in the letter from Mall of America  management, the grounds for arrest are predicated on the erroneous characterization of the Round Dance is a political event—a protest even. But it isn’t, it is every much as legitimate a public expression of secular religious celebration not unlike the small sampling of similar events I have posted below from other ethnic groups, nationalities and traditions—just for fun!

Not unlike public Kwanzaa celebrations currently underway in the US, the round dance flash mobs of American Indians have the added benefit of introducing mainstream society to cultural traditions—inviting them to participate and/or simply observe and appreciate.

In response to the threats of arrest, Reyna Crow and Idle No More have invited the management of Mall of America to participate in a press conference on  December 31, 2013, at 3 PM at the Mall of America.

Crow and Idle No More have issued the following press release regarding the event.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Mall of America threatens arrest of Idle No More organizers if New Years Eve Round Dance occurs
December 25, 2013 at 3:19pm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 12.25.13

Contact: Reyna Crow reynacrow@gmail.com 218.269.2661 (text)

MALL OF AMERICA THREATENS `IDLE NO MORE’ ORGANIZERS WITH ARREST, PROMISES `ADDITIONAL ACTIONS’ TO `PROHIBIT… GATHERING’ IF NEW YEARS EVE ROUND DANCE PROCEEDS

Duluth, MN Various organizers identified by the `Mall of America’ management team as being connected with the `Idle No More’ movement have received letters from the mall indicating the mall “…will utilize additional actions… including trespassing the organizers of the protest” (emphasis added) should a flash mob Round Dance recur there on New Year’s Eve this year.

Idle No More Duluth organizer Reyna Crow was one of several people who received the letter on Christmas Eve. “The characterization of the Round Dance as a protest is not only incorrect, it is insulting”, says Crow, “If the Idle No More flash mob Round Dance that was held there last year is a `protest’, so are the Christmas carols and the other flash mob events that have been held there”.

Crow is inviting a representative of the `Mall of America’ management to join her and Patricia Shepard, who also received the letter, at a news conference at the Mall of America on December 31st at 3:00 pm. Crow plans to use the designated `free speech zone’ there to discuss her concerns that the apparent singling out of organizers associated with Indigenous people and issues for threats of arrest and/or other intimidation over flash mobs events at the mall.

Who: Reyna Crow, Patricia Shepard, Mall of America management invited and urged to attend
When: Dec 31, 2013 3:00 pm
Where: Mall of America
What: News Conference and Rally

Why: To respond publicly to Mall of America’s threats to arrest Idle No More organizers, and the unequal treatment of Indigenous organizers in ceded territory.

As if to add insult to injury, the Mall of America is situated on Indian Land, and the threat of arrest for its use is a breach of treaty rights.  According to Shepard, during the treaty-signing period, the Dakota and Chippewa ceded the territory that is now the site of the Mall of America, but the tribes retained rights to use the land for hunting, fishing and other purposes. Other purposes means to gather at any location, whether that location be private or public. The MOA location is within those treaty territories, and the MOA is in violation treaty obligations to the Dakota and Chippewa by threatening to trespass us on our ceded territories. As Shepard rightly asserts:
“We have a right to gather anywhere within those territories which was agreed upon by the US Government “. Treaties matter.
Here’s what you can do to help—any support you may be able to lend on any one of these matters or others would be greatly appreciated:

1.    Show up at he Press Conference and MOA on the day of the event
2.    Call MOA and voice your concerns...Twitter your concerns, mail the MOA management team
3.    Provide legal assistance in the event arrest, attorneys, bond money
4.    If someone could set up a paypal account would be good for the contributions...
5.    Send out the press release, articles and letters of support to Reyna Crow and Myself we need the support...

Post Note (from Grumpelstillchen after a long period of silence):
One unanticipated gift received from composing this article was the opportunity to view many spectacular flash mob events from performances throughout the seasons, the country, and the world.

I spent the afternoon on whirlwind tour of finding flash-mob meaning in madness and post here only a sampling of what I found:

Little Drummer Boy

Wells Fargo NYC Flash Mob in Times Square

Hallelujah Chorus (with drums)

I really enjoyed this performance in Calgary:
Irish group in Calgary mall

But you don’t have to travel the world to find flash-mob beauty blessing the halls of malls: in nearby Burnsville, MN, 200 singers joined in this mall Food Court Flash Mob.

Hallelujah

This Kwanzaa celebration in front of Macy’s was among my favorite stations on the tour:

Now, if the Mall of America needs a stunning example of using cultural tradition to express a POLITICAL statement or “protest” in the form of a flashmob—My hats go off to this group of talented, truthful and inspiring ...

Steppers at Walmart

**

The spirit of the round dance, and many other public expressions of American Indian and other indigenous traditions is to assert their dedication to the protection of the planet that is now imperative not only to the survival of indigenous people/s, but to all peoples—and to any prospect of peace in our lifetimes, or anyone else’s.

This is why we celebrate a sacred season of peace.

Judging from the video posted at the outset: a majority of patrons of the Mall of America were visibly enthralled by last year’s celebration. This calls into question Mall of America’s claims that celebrations of Native American culture are anything but a benefit to the patrons, retailers and visitors to the mall.

Originally posted to grumpelstillchen on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 07:34 PM PST.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Both Speech and Religious Freedoms Are Stated as (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grumpelstillchen, Otteray Scribe, AoT

    freedoms from government not corporate infringement. I'll be interested to read commentary from our legal minded participants. The arc of civilization is long but it is bending toward the nobility and their enterprises.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 07:47:56 PM PST

    •  The MOA's point, though, is that it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Otteray Scribe, AoT

      prohibits political events and mischaracterizes this CELEBRATION of American Indian culture as a political statement or protest, which it is not.

      The videos posted demonstrate that flash mob activities performed by other ethnic religious groups are not met with the same hostility. They are welcomed.

  •  This is a confusing diary to me. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, johnny wurster, divineorder

    I mean, even you put quotes around "public square" in the diary (and accidentally refer to Bloomington, IL rather than MN:

    the secular celebration of religious beliefs in “the public square” at the Mall of America in Bloomington, IL.
    As I read this, I thought, "Pretty cut and dried...I can't just assemble an event in the Mall of America without permission as the Mall is private property.  Besides, many units of government require permits or at least prior notice to host events on public property.  

    But then I read this:

    As if to add insult to injury, the Mall of America is situated on Indian Land, and the threat of arrest for its use is a breach of treaty rights.  According to Shepard, during the treaty-signing period, the Dakota and Chippewa ceded the territory that is now the site of the Mall of America, but the tribes retained rights to use the land for hunting, fishing and other purposes. Other purposes means to gather at any location, whether that location be private or public. The MOA location is within those treaty territories, and the MOA is in violation treaty obligations to the Dakota and Chippewa by threatening to trespass us on our ceded territories.
    I have to admit, there seems to be a mistake here.  How could the tribes have retained the right to use the land yet there sits a 96 acre mall?  Does "gather at any location" mean without permit or prior notice?  Is "whether that location be private or public" actually true?  Does that mean any residence, business, or backyard in Bloomington is fair game for a gathering the owner did not consent to?  

    I'm not at all disputing the importance of treaties and honoring those rights and I'm not disputing the the Mall of America management is acting like a bunch of weenies.  However, I'm definitely not connecting the dots that say Idle No More has the right to conduct an event on Mall property.  

    Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

    by Mark Mywurtz on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 07:54:24 PM PST

    •  I knew I'd mistakenly typed (0+ / 0-)

      IL once, looked for the error, couldn't find it, so, hang me on the typo! (Minnesota and I go back a long way).

      My main point is that MOA has mis-categorized this event as a political one, when it is in fact a celebration of a season of peace--much like the celebrations of other denominations (Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanukah, Solstice, etc.).

      Wouldn't their actions have to be considered discriminatory if they did not threaten these other groups with arrest for staging spontaneous flash mob events celebrating their specific seasonal holiday at this time of year?

      I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not a specialist in TREATY law, but the link I provided above will take you to the text of the treaties involved (1837, 1851, 1855, with the Dakota and the Ojibwe).

      The point I'm trying to make here is that this is a celebration, not a political event.

      •  Permits for public spaces are predicated on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grumpelstillchen, Otteray Scribe

        the need for public services being provided and the public servants being given adequate notice to provide them. Such permits cannot be reasonably denied, if the space is adequate for the expected crowd and the time is convenient for the provision of services.
        A flash mob anticipates no unusual numbers and the timing is both brief and during normal hours of operation of the venue. So, no special services are anticipated to be needed.

        Obamacare at your fingertips: 1-800-318-2596; TTY: 1-855-889-4325

        by hannah on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 03:36:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You may have hit the nail on the head, Hannah. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          Reviewing the OTHER Flash mobs in these videos, looks to me like the MOA's concerns may be much more practical in nature than originally thought.

          Another thing that stands out in the comparison of flash mobs conducted by other groups is that none of them have drawn the same NUMBERS as the Native group from last year.

          •  seconding. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grumpelstillchen, erush1345

            when I watch the video with my lawyer hat on, I see liability for the mall.  lots and lots of liability.

            look at those people hanging over the balcony to get a better look: if one of them is jostled and falls, guess who they're suing?

            MOA would be out of its mind to permit this without INM having a big, fat insurance policy and an indemnification agreement.

            •  Why shouldn't MOA's big fat insurance (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              johnny wurster

              policy be definitive here? It's not INM's fault that their round dances attract more attention/appreciation than the flash mobs of other groups--as posted here. (H/T to Otteray Scribe for including one of the ones I'd intended to post, but missed due to time and energy constraints).

              •  If MOA permits large events that create the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                erush1345

                risk of injury, then their premiums go up even if their insurance policy would cover this (which we don't know. You'd think it would?  But you could also easily imagine the insurance company putting large scheduled events on their list of exclusions.  They're insuring a mall for the normal course of its business, which is providing retail space, not putting on events).

    •  Two points... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grumpelstillchen, AoT

      (1)  It has been argued that, even though they are technically private property,  shopping malls have usurped the societal role of the traditional public square, and thus should be treated as public spaces for First Amendment purposes.  While I think this is a reasonable argument, the courts have not agreed.

      (2)  Property rights are not an all-or-nothing proposition.  If I sell you a piece of land, but retain the mineral rights, I can drill for oil on your front lawn.  

      I haven't read the treaties involved, so I offer no opinion on  the specifics.  But many treaties specified that while the tribes surrendered the land, they retained the rights to use it for certain purposes.   In Wisconsin, for instance, the tribes' legal right to hunt and fish outside of their reservations has been recognized, because those rights were retained by treaty when the land itself was lost.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      I have no idea what rights the Minnesota tribes maintained under their treaties, so I can't opine on whether the right to assemble and hold ceremonies is one of them.  

      •  This .... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT
        But many treaties specified that while the tribes surrendered the land, they retained the rights to use it for certain purposes.
        Is precisely the point: organizers of the event have reviewed the treaties pertaining to the specific territory at issue here contend that these rights are retained. SInce, however, they are NOT lawyers, one of the requests they are making is for legal advice to nail down precisely such fine points in the law/statutes.
  •  Wat. (7+ / 0-)

    WAT.

    Aw hell no. The MOA is hearing it from this member of the community.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:59 PM PST

  •  It's private property. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, erush1345

    That's why they can be arrested -because in America it is illegal to be on private property if the owners don't approve. This is very simple and has nothing to do with Native rights. If these people really think they have the right to do whatever they want at the mall, then they should take the matter to court. But they don't have any such right, do they?

    •  Going to court is expensive. Which is why... (7+ / 0-)

      ...so many Indian grievances never make it there. The lawyers for Indians—like the Native American Rights Fund—must, because of limited resources, take on only the biggest cases. In fact, scores of treaties and other agreements do provide the right to use the land for some purposes even if it has ceded for others. But most of those broken agreements—the Indian part, which was mostly surrendering the land, didn't get broken—have not been adjudicated. Those that have been have had mixed outcomes: q.v. fishing rights in the Northwest and the Black Hills case.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 09:42:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, there are a great number of exceptions (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grumpelstillchen

      to this statement: " in America it is illegal to be on private property if the owners don't approve."

      I'd point to the civil rights movement and anti-discrimination laws that came from it as a prime example.

      This is very simple and has nothing to do with Native rights.
      So treaties mean nothing now? There are treaties that specifically say that the native people who are signatories can use various lands in some manner or another if they wish. So yeah, they do have such right.

      Property rights are not by any stretch of the imagination as totalitarian as you would have us believe. We're talking about a public accommodation, not someone's house.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 09:46:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They have no right to demonstrate (0+ / 0-)

        whenever they wish at the Mall of the Americas. If they did, then they would not be subject to arrest when they do protest. This would not be something they'd have to ask the blogosphere for help on. And the excuse offered above that exercising their legal rights is just too expensive because lawyers cost too much is just a lot of bunk. There are plenty of lawyers who would take such an open-and-shut case pro bono. The fact is that the mall is indeed private property, and what they seek is a special right to protest on other peoples' property.

        •  This isn't a demonstration (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grumpelstillchen

          And they very well might have the right to do exactly what they are trying to do on the grounds of the mall based on their treaty rights. There are not always pro-bono for these types of cases. The idea that everyone, and especially native people, can magically get justice because they can get a free lawyer is absolutely absurd and ignores the long history of the government ignoring and abrogating treaties with native peoples.

          The fact is that the mall is indeed private property, and what they seek is a special right to protest on other peoples' property.
          No, they don't. It's not a protest. Please, go actually read the diary and then come back and discuss it instead of showing up and issuing knee jerk absolutist defenses of property right. You obviously don't understand the legal issues at play here.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 12:39:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If they had a shred of a legal case (0+ / 0-)

            they'd make it. Claiming a right based on an ancient treaty on the blogs but not in court is a sure sign of a plaintiff without a real case. No way would any bank been willing to finance a mall if there were some perpetual right on the part of some people to demonstrate (or dance around, or do anything whatsoever) at their whim. It is just bullshit, and I'm amazed that you don't see that.

            •  They may not have known about the treaty (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              grumpelstillchen

              Or they may have assumed that the they could easily beat the Indians in court, as ha happened numerous times. And perhaps the Indians in question thought they could do better out of court based on the past the US has of abrogating treaties. Or they didn't want to drag through court for something that is suppose to be a fun event. And we don't know if it's bullshit or not. You're making a whole ton of assumptions about things you clearly don't understand. You've already made veritably incorrect statement about the legal issues involved and yet anyone is suppose to listen to your legal claims on the subject?

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 01:17:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The burden of proof is on them. (0+ / 0-)

                If they have such an obvious legal right to demonstrate in the mall, then there should be no worries about getting arrested. Right?

                •  Get it through your head, it isn't a demonstration (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  grumpelstillchen

                  Good lord. That's the whole point of the diary.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 02:09:01 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Who cares what it is called? (0+ / 0-)

                    Whatever it is, they cannot do it on private property if the owners do not wish them to do so. Period. I'm outta here, this is a trivial story with an obvious outcome.

                  •  Semantics...and irrelevant semantics at that... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    doc2

                    It doesn't matter what you call it. If the private property owners say it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen...case closed.

                    Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

                    by Love Me Slender on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 05:07:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You aren't clear on the law (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      grumpelstillchen

                      and the law isn't clear in this case because of the various treaties that exist. Property owners do not have absolute control over their property.

                      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                      by AoT on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 06:30:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There is established cse law on this... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...and from the State of MN, no less.

                        And I'd like to see what evidence you have of your assertion that property owners do not, in the absence of a crime or tax lien where public authorities can lawfully intervene, have absolute control over their property.

                        Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

                        by Love Me Slender on Sat Dec 28, 2013 at 10:53:12 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Perhaps you could look to all the civil rights (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          grumpelstillchen

                          legislation that very much restricts what a property owner can stop people from doing at a public accommodation. Or just zoning laws. If this is settled case law then fine, although a cite would be great if that's the case, but property owners have a whole ton of restrictions on what they can do with and on their property.

                          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                          by AoT on Sat Dec 28, 2013 at 12:52:58 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You're drifting into oblivion with your assertions (0+ / 0-)

                            Zoning laws and calls before digging are quite a bit different than protesting on my private property.

                            You seem to be reaching, so I'll let you off the hook and just admit that you're wrong on the issue. Have a great evening.

                            Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

                            by Love Me Slender on Sat Dec 28, 2013 at 05:37:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I was responding to a specific claim (0+ / 0-)
                            And I'd like to see what evidence you have of your assertion that property owners do not, in the absence of a crime or tax lien where public authorities can lawfully intervene, have absolute control over their property.
                            This is clearly wrong as I showed. There are a great number of restrictions on an owners control over their property.

                            Again, can you give me a cite for the court case in question?

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 12:28:21 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

  •  There are lots of flash mobs this time of year. (3+ / 0-)

    They are fun to everyone except the corporate Grinch types. And a lot of flash mobs represent the varied ethnic cultures in our society. Of course I am partial to the skirling of the pipes. This mall is in Thousand Oaks, CA

    Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

    by Otteray Scribe on Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 09:23:38 PM PST

  •  Malls are private property. One of the main (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grumpelstillchen

    objectives of private property rights is to provide exclusive use to the owners. "Exclusive" means that unwanted people can be legally excluded as trespassers and, after an appropriate warning, the agents of law enforcement are tasked with enforcing that exclusion.
    While it seems obvious that the invention of property rights serves as a sop to disguise or compensate for individual human rights being denied, the fact remains that, from the start, the U.S. Constitution has provided for property to trump human rights and the judicial precedent supports that. It is a compromise necessitated by the fact that, in the beginning, slavery was a legal status.
    What is perhaps not as well recognized is that the whole privatization movement, includling public/private partnerships, was motivated by the desire to evade demands for equal treatment on the part of public officials. Once it was determined that the federal standard could not be evaded by the several states, private corporations were tasked with enforcing the separation/segregation of undesirable persons. Believe it or not, segregation is a desideratum, especially on the part of people who think in terms of groups -- i.e. only see forests, not individual trees. The demand that persons be treated as individuals, rather than one of a group, is perceived as a severe imposition by people who can't see beyond superficial similarities. I suspect the demand is akin to expecting the color blind to distinguish between red and green. If people can't be judged by their looks, like books by their covers, what are superficial people to do?

    Private property is a cop out. It's the community saying, "here, you can own a home and a cage on wheels," now leave me alone and get out of here. Private property is an abrogation of social responsibility.

    Obamacare at your fingertips: 1-800-318-2596; TTY: 1-855-889-4325

    by hannah on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 03:30:10 AM PST

    •  I'm a little confused... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345

      So by owning my private property and home, and not permitting anyone to use it for any purpose they feel is appropriate, I am somehow socially irresponsible?

      I understand the general cause here, but I think that is a leap WAY too far. I can value my privacy and dictate what happens on my personal property and still be an advocate for social responsibility.

      Try reversing the causes here. I gave this example above:

      Suppose I have a cause I want to being attention to - and my cause is to stop abortion at all costs. Your private property - a small business - sits at the perfect intersection for me to protest at. Can I organize a flash mob protest, without your permission, just because I feel my cause is worthy?

      If a RW group was trying to force their protest down the throat of private property owner, would you still make the same argument?

      In cases like this, I think it is best to hold true to fundamental rights instead of bending them to serve a specific cause. The slippery slope knows no bounds when we advocate to the contrary.

      Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

      by Love Me Slender on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 07:46:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  treaty language: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grumpelstillchen, doc2
    The privilege of hunting, fishing, and gathering the wild rice, upon the lands, the rivers and the lakes included in the territory ceded, is guaranteed to the Indians, during the pleasure of the President of the United States.
    http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/...
    •  descriptions of last year's event certainly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grumpelstillchen, erush1345

      make it sound political:

      Organizers from Idle No More held a flash mob round dance early Saturday evening at the Mall of America to raise awareness of their movement that calls on all people “to join in a revolution which honors and fulfills Indigenous sovereignty which protects the land and water.”
      http://colorlines.com/...
      •  But there is no such language describing this (0+ / 0-)

        year's event as political. The article cited above, describing the round dance as a sort of friendship dance, identifies the event as a-political.

        •  if the mall owners don't want it, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          that's it. What you think is irrelevant. Just as a group of people have no right to dance or to protest on your property, they have no right on mall property. Doesn't matter what it is that they are doing.

          •  So explain to me why some groups are ALLOWED (0+ / 0-)

            --even WELCOMED--to engage in such activities and others are not?

            That is the point.

            •  Because it is private property. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345

              The owners can pick and choose whoever they like (though I doubt they're signing off on any group doing political protests in their mall). These protesters should find some truly public place to do their thing, not a privately-owned place of business.

            •  No, the point here is the existence of... (0+ / 0-)

              ...private property...which means, by law, no one but the private property owners decide who can or cannot hold these sorts of events on said property.

              Look at it this way:

              Suppose I have a cause I want to being attention to - and my cause is to stop abortion at all costs. Your private property - a small business - sits at the perfect intersection for me to protest at. Can I organize a flash mob protest, without your permission, just because I feel my cause is worthy?

              There are plenty of public places to protest in that city. Private property owners are under no obligation - morally or legally - to provide their personal space for anything or anyone. You don't have to like it, but in the case of a mall, I sincerely doubt they care about anything but people coming to spend money there.

              Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

              by Love Me Slender on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 07:36:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The event is not a protest, it is a prayer. Period (0+ / 0-)

                So please quit trying to re-define the event as YOU and others see fit, not as the event has been defined by its organizers.

                •  I see you glossed over the private... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  erush1345

                  ...property thing.

                  prayer...protest...dance...doesn't matter. When it's private property, property owners decide, NOT the organizers...period.

                  Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

                  by Love Me Slender on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 08:19:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  well, someone sure glossed over the private (0+ / 0-)

                    property thing, but the problem is that that ship sailed long ago.

                    Definitive in the case of this private property bit: treaty rights on ceded land.

                    Again, I'm not a lawyer, and am faced with some pressing legal deadlines of my own at the moment which prevent me from doing the necessary research on those fine points in the law.

                    Obviously I was mistaken in thinking that the Kos community would be interested in helping out here.

                     

                    •  At least we agree on one thing... (0+ / 0-)

                      You're not a lawyer. But hey, neither am I...so...

                      :)

                      I'm sorry...and I promise, I'm really not trying to flame you here.

                      But we are forever fighting the RW canard about progressive ideology that chirps about taking private property away from Americans and giving it to others. You know, the whole "redistribution of wealth" bullshit.

                      When we try to dictate what happens on private property, we open that can of worms WIDE OPEN. No matter how worthy the cause, I think that sort of thinking turns Americans off in a big, big way...and it makes me very, very uncomfortable to think about someone telling me what I have to tolerate on my fucking private property.

                      But by all means, continue to fight if you believe in this cause. I was just arguing an opposing viewpoint...that's all.

                       

                      Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

                      by Love Me Slender on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 04:59:01 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Just this much: (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        nicolemm
                        it makes me very, very uncomfortable to think about someone telling me what I have to tolerate on my fucking private property.
                        Try turning this around and imagining what we, as indigenous people, have to tolerate on our fucking ancestral "property": all of it. Every day.

                        It's too early in the morning to get me started on that.

      •  See also: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        Here:

        Hundreds of Native Americans staged a protest in the state of Minnesota against what they call was the “genocide” of the First Nations in Canada. The group ‘Idle No More’ held the gathering at the Mall of America in the city of Minneapolis on Saturday.  The protesters accused Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper of violating treaties by appropriating the land and resources of aboriginal people.

        Clyde Bellecourt, the founder and international director of the American Indian Movement, was also among the protesters.

        “We have to look out for our own – what happens in Canada happens here and what happens here happens in Canada,” Bellecourt said.

        The protesters also expressed solidarity with Theresa Spence, the chief of Attawapiskat First Nation in Northern Ontario, who has been on a hunger strike since December 11. Spence has demanded a meeting with Harper to discuss the plight and destitution of the First Nation people living in the affluent North American country.

        This DKos diary:
        What began as teach-ins soon evolved into nationwide political rallies. On Dec. 17, a group of young people in Regina used Twitter and Facebook to organize a flash mob at a mall packed with holiday shoppers, and held a traditional round dance around the Christmas tree. Since then countless round dances have been held in malls, streets and parks all over the world and they're still happening. Here are some of the early events, including a solidarity dance by Australian Aborigines and a huge round dance attended by many hundreds at the Minnesota Mall of America, the second largest mall in the US
        This YouTube description:
        We joined hundreds of people at the Mall of America . We believe there was over a thousand at the rally. The rally was in solidarity for Chief Theresa Spensor in Canada on Hungar Strike.
        (the video has interviews with organizers, in which they state they are trying to raise awareness of NA issues)
  •  PS: I am under extreme time/energy constraints at (0+ / 0-)

    the moment, due to a personal legal matter: hence, I can only tend to this diary on the fly (dangerous thing, with so many 'ambiguous' issues involved.)

    Any support/promotion of this cause from other Kossacks (Ccamp? MB? Ojibwe? Navajo? Others? Would be appreciated.)

    Repost to Native American Netroots would be good. Can anyone do that for me?

  •  Wash. Rinse. Repeat. (0+ / 0-)

    More clarification of what is at issue here:

    http://tworowtimes.com/...

  •  Well that drumming video touched my heart (0+ / 0-)

    and brought tears to my eyes. So it doesn't surprise me that some are trying to stop that sort of thing. Legally though, I think you're screwed.

    We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.

    by PowWowPollock on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 06:31:49 AM PST

    •  BTW, I'm looking to buy another hand drum. (0+ / 0-)

      Anyone have any suggestions? Are there any Kossacks involved in such things?

      We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance.

      by PowWowPollock on Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 06:36:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not screwed: I'm not even involved in the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mimi

      event. I put it out here to alert the DKos community, in the hope that there would be support for it here.

      Looks like that's not working out so well, huh?

      •  What this looks like to me is the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grumpelstillchen

        Native American equivalent of 'driving while black' and 'flying while brown.'

        That Indian circle dance at the mall video is cultural expression.   The mall owners find cultural expression by Indians objectionable but don't find cultural expression by non-Indians objectionable with other events and behavior in the Mall.  

      •  it's late, I can't read all the comments, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grumpelstillchen

        I love those flashmob dances and "Idle No More" always gets my support. It's simply racial discrimination. There are flash mob dances by white folks all over the world and they are loved.

        Please go on dancing. Any cultural expressions like that one is in a way also a social and political statement.

        I hope your diary causes some support.

      •  oh, it works well, don't get discouraged, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grumpelstillchen

        it's simple racism involved here. There are so many flash mob dances and singing events all over the world by white folks of any cultural background and they are loved.  

        "Idle No More" always gets my respect and support. I love what you are doing. Please go on dancing.

        Any cultural expression is inherently also a social and political expression.

        Thanks for letting us know. I hope your diary causes some people to support you. Never stop dancing and drumming and singing. Never.  

  •  just a thought.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grumpelstillchen

    Speech on pvt property can be limited and controlled. To what extent has varied from State to State. Here in Colorado we had a landmark case Bock v. Westminster Mall.
       Bock was determined to be allowed political activity because of the presence of an office payed for by taxpayers...A recruiting office. in 2006-7 I was arrested twice for distribution of "instructional flyers" outside a recruiting office in a strip mall. On both occasions "Bock" was used successfully.
        If this mall has a recruiting office..and they usually do..who knows...good luck..

    Worst case scenario is charged with misdemeanors such as "trespassing" fail "failure to follow and order" (to disburse.

    On another note..here in Colorado officers have to tell you to leave 3 times warning of arrest.. in 2007 when we blocked a parade route as part of Transform Columbus Day..they had 40 trials of 2. In my trial the jury determined that because of the loud drumming we were unable to hear the warnings and were found not guilty.

    Anyway good luck

    Peace/Dance/Resist!

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