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sparked the exposure, the debate, the dialogue that obviously has to happen in Obama's "more transparent government".

One of his biggest lapses was his refusal to acknowledge that his entire speech, and all of the important changes he now advocates, would never have happened without the disclosures by Mr. Snowden, who continues to live in exile and under the threat of decades in prison if he returns to this country.

The president’s most significant announcement was also the hardest to parse. He ordered “a transition that will end” the bulk collection of phone metadata as it currently exists, but what exactly will end? The database will still exist, even if he said he wants it held outside the government. Mr. Obama should have called for sharp reductions in the amount of data the government collects, or at least adopted his own review panel’s recommendation that telecommunications companies keep the data they create and let the National Security Agency request only what it needs. Instead, he gave the Justice Department and intelligence officials until late March to come up with alternate storage options, seeking a new answer when the best ones are already obvious.

But he added two restrictions that could significantly reduce the possibility of abuse of this information: Wherever the database resides, he said, it may be queried only “after a judicial finding or in the case of a true emergency.” (That calls for a clear definition of “emergency.”) Agency analysts will be permitted to pursue phone calls that are two “hops” removed from a number associated with a terrorist organization, instead of three. That extra hop allowed for the examination of an exponentially larger number of phone calls.

Mr. Obama did not address the bigger problem that the collection of all this data, no matter who ends up holding onto it, may not be making us any safer.

Several of the presidential review panel’s key recommendations were not addressed on Friday. The panel said a court order should be required to search through Americans’ emails or calls that are incidentally intercepted; the president called only for unspecified reforms. He rejected the recommendation that judges sign off on the subpoenas used by the F.B.I. to demand business records, known as national security letters, saying only that they should be less secret. That doesn’t go nearly far enough to curb these orders, which have been abused.
"Th Th Th THAT"S ALL FOLKS!"

UNfortunately it's this hideous nonsense that will be Obama's sad legacy: A gigantic, expensive, clearly out of control rogue agency which in spite of all of the evidence of "need" pointing to the contrary, will proceed with vacuuming up every bit of personal data available on We the People. and they will do it forever.

I don't know what else to conclude from this travesty, this vigorous stomping on our right to privacy, other than obviously the Empire is desperate.. apparently we the sappy taxpayers are to be feared and we are not to be told the whole truth by whistle blowers like Mr. Snowden. we are NOT to know what's going on out there in the wild, wooly world of what passes for great foreign policy and of course what the MIC and their proxies are up to.

So now we have this Frankenstein monster which Sen. Rand Paul happens to be right about: "It's not who gets to hold the data, I don't want it collected at all".

and so as I indicated before, this monster drives the final nail into the coffin of the MIA LIBERAL LEFT in our nation. Snowden's significant gift to what's left of our Republic is like casting pearls before swine....

http://www.nytimes.com/...

Poll

I GIVE UP

21%20 votes
44%42 votes
34%32 votes

| 94 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Go Harbaugh!!!!!!!!!! (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, doroma, sunbro, Drdemocrat, JoanMar, mickT

    The President had nothing to gain from mentioning Snowden.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47:43 PM PST

  •  Tags are comma separated. (6+ / 0-)

    You might also want to check spelling.

  •  We're supposed to limit to 3 paragraphs from (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma, shaharazade, duhban

    a source.

  •  I give up on Obama (18+ / 0-)

    and all those who fight to maintain a status quo that is already gone or simply gone rogue.

    "So listen, oh, Don't wait." Vampire Weekend.

    by Publius2008 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:12:35 PM PST

    •  Yes.. Disappointing (9+ / 0-)

      De-evolving daily into farce... dystopia.

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:17:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think the right conversation is taking (9+ / 0-)

      place.  I rarely contribute to the comments on NSA diaries but I'm getting ready to, maybe.

      The European Parliament is setting up a hearing by video link with Snowden which should be in the next few weeks.

       

      There is no existence without doubt.

      by Mark Lippman on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:41:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, What's on Your Mind, Sir? (5+ / 0-)

        actual progressives are supposed to be A-OK with all of this?

        I for one am very interested in what the actual progressives in EU nations have to say about this.. and what actions they take-- besides getting Ms. Merkel an encrypted sat phone.

        "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

        by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:51:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry for the delayed reply. I'm compiling (6+ / 0-)

          information for a diary. This subject needs a big lift.

          Events in the EU are moving on a parallel track. They are moving forward with their own recommendations for protecting the privacy of citizens. The report is detailed, comprehensive, and thorough in proportion to the seriousness of the problem.

          It's really a complex of multiple problems.

          1] People don't seem like they understand what's going on;
          2] There's no leadership anywhere near what it takes to make a difference;
          3] The corporate-owned media isn't investigating and informing the public. Instead they limit the discussion in an insidious way to influence opinions, create divisions, and distractions. Because of information deprivation, I don't think people even have the vocabulary to communicate and reinforce each other. (see #1 above.)

          You can check out the last couple of things I wrote. I'm factual. I link to good sources. But there's not much of an audience for this material. Some people seem to like being kept in the dark. Or they toss out oblique remarks. It doesn't bother me. Take another shot.

          By the way, using logic, if the EU has authority today to negotiate with the US about data collection and storage, it must have made the agreements that allow the transfer of data to the US. It was complicit. A handful of its members, including Germany also have their own version of the NSA.
          If Merkel didn't know her phone was compromised, she's not really in charge. If this is what the dull, gray EU bureaucrats discovered and put in their findings, then, Houston, we have a problem.

          Remember when Snowden said in interview #1 that he could access anyone's phone, even Obama's? It seemed outlandish to some people. Still does.

          Later I'll dump the most important quotes from the report in a diary with a link to the source.

          There is no existence without doubt.

          by Mark Lippman on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 05:38:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wrote about this: (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pluto, DeadHead, lunachickie
            By the way, using logic, if the EU has authority today to negotiate with the US about data collection and storage, it must have made the agreements that allow the transfer of data to the US.
            It was done by treaty.
            •  Others which provided cover so that (0+ / 0-)

              transfers of data went beyond the scope of the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program.

              At the bottom of the linked page on the EU website, there's a press release that explains the basis for an investigation into a breach of TFTP Article 19.

              Fast forward to findings just released;

              whereas the US Treasury stated that since the entry into force of the TFTP Agreement it had not had access to data from SWIFT in the EU except within the framework of the TFTP; whereas the US Treasury refused to comment on whether SWIFT data would have been accessed outside TFTP by any other US government body or department
              This is one element in a larger framework of agreements. Whether the US is unable or unwilling to cooperate, as it publicly agreed to do, doesn't matter.  We don't need to speculate on the reasons why the US is unresponsive.  It has to be able to say that it has the ability to abide by the agreement with affirmative determination.  It can't be a party to an agreement without knowing whether it abides by the terms or even if it can.

              The next step is formal cancellation of the agreement.

              There is no existence without doubt.

              by Mark Lippman on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:32:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  You're #1 already sounds BOGUS (0+ / 0-)
            1] People don't seem like they understand what's going on;
            Stop me if I'm wrong here;

            so what your diary is going to do is like numerous diaries do:

            "Explain" in mind-numbingly, more or less irrelevant detail what the government is doing-- on a very technical level... because well, few of us work in silicon valley for a hot start up.. so we "just don't really know what's going on" with all of the data hoovering and really there's nothing to worry about.

            am I wrong?

            do you work for the agency? then I wonder how it is you know exactly what they are doing?

            "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

            by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:03:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wrong by 180°. You should be very worried (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie

              if you care at all about civil liberties.  

              I respect the DailyKos community by refraining from colorful language that distracts attention from the gravity of the topic.

              There is no existence without doubt.

              by Mark Lippman on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:52:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Wrong by 180" (0+ / 0-)

                noted I'm only half wrong regarding you're approach... OK, thanks that tells me what I need to know.

                and it's not only whether I care at all about our civil liberties; it's whether the democrats in congress care.

                extremely detailed technical info does not address that.

                "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

                by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:04:17 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Boy, that was dumb. (0+ / 0-)

                  Seriously, you need to review your geometry and/or trig.

                  "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

                  by gharlane on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 01:28:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  The key word there is "rogue" n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NonnyO, Pluto

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:12:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  White liberals can be so weird (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, sunbro, Drdemocrat, Lying eyes, Terri

    One diary talking about how global warming can destroy millions of lives...powerful

    Another diary talking about how a family member died because their insurance wouldn't cover their cancer-related therapy...powerful

    Then another diary talking about the cycle of poverty and violence in inner-city America dooming children to miserable outcomes...powerful

    Then there are these diaries...about how people are worried the NSA recorded a number they dialed a year ago and is stored with billions of other calls in a database

    And I'm continually amazed that some people only seem to get motivated by the last category of diary

    •  ANOTHER WEAK LOAD (23+ / 0-)

      Sit down for a second here.. put down your brightly colored IPhone...

      Clapper LIED... you're OK with that???

      do you even know how much the data collection center recently opened in Utah COST we the sappy taxpayers?

      you don't know? that's what I thought.

      FAIL.

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:46:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your insulting indifference is amazing. n.t (13+ / 0-)

      What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

      by dkmich on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:52:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hellllooooooooo Mr Orwell, Please? (8+ / 0-)

        IF some agency insists on installing cameras in every room in my crib to spy on me...

        plenty of progressives here would say, "well, what are you worried about?! Unless you're doing something illegal... no problem!!

        gimme a break.

        "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

        by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:59:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those people aren't progressive, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DavidMS, YucatanMan

          Superpole. What gives with this?

          Why you wanna lump folks like the President in with "progressives"?  

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:16:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  'progressive' is in the process of being co-opted. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DeadHead

            In the past months I've seen, and with growing regularity, in the media and here, the word being used to describe what used to be called 'centrist.' I think Superpole has just picked up on this fact earlier than most have.

            We're really left with 'informed decent human' or 'other.' All those dead political descriptions of a dead culture -- their useless to us from this point.

            Think Phil Ochs, but after fifty years of degeneration toward the right in our politics.


            Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

            by Jim P on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 12:37:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've been saying that for awhile now (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jim P
              'progressive' is in the process of being co-opted. In the past months I've seen, and with growing regularity, in the media and here, the word being used to describe what used to be called 'centrist.'
              Except to say that that the diarist has "caught on" to this gives him credit for pushing back on it. Yet he isn't. He's lumping Obama in with that shit, too.

              I'm pretty sure that's the point of this diary. This may be the first Snowden diary that appears to support the guy that I haven't tipped and recc'd, because of that language at the very end, and the diarist's insistence on pushing back on pointed questions to this end by either ignoring it altogether or responding with outright gibberish.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:23:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I always underestimate people's (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sunbro

        ability to be completely self-absorbed

        Let me try a white upper class reference: The Seinfeld episode where George Costanza knocks over the old lady and kids to escape the fire because the only thing he cares about is himself

    •  "White liberals"? Dude. You're skirting an ugly (11+ / 0-)

      line there.

    •  See what you did, kos? (12+ / 0-)

      Someone else has picked up your "white privilege" meme and proceeded to drop it on its head....

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:15:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the Evidence Room (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        …has his "Two Shits" to prove it.

        But, in his defense, this is one news story that got ahead of him. It happens to all of us at one time or another.

        This NSA motherfucker is not going away. As I said in my posted Diary in the first 48 hours after the story broke.

        Never. Ever.

    •  This is actually the big stuff. Not sexy or sad (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SixSixSix, stevemb, Youffraita

      but big. And a little bit hard for me to understand sometimes as I feel no need for privacy. (You'll see my real name in my sig line.) But I know that this is one of the keys to the future.

      Though I don't understand the importance of wanting privacy laws put in place, I clearly understand that the governments extreme actions, particularly regarding whistleblowers (Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden), of NOT wanting privacy laws in place IS important.

      So this is exactly what I want to see on the wreck list.

      Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd buy Detroit.

      by ZenTrainer on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 04:14:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Definitely big. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ZenTrainer

        And, y'know, I like a bit of privacy but always assumed I had none on the Internet (I don't post under my real name b/c it is so common I could implicate at least three people with the same name who are actually semi famous, albeit in different fields. I don't know their politics).

        I just think the NSA needs to be disbanded entirely. They clearly cannot be trusted: someone will call me out for comparing them to the Stasi, but really, I can't think what else to compare them to.

        And without Edward Snowden's revelations, we wouldn't know the facts about what they're doing.

        English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgment and education - sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street. E. B. White

        by Youffraita on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 12:57:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are we talking about just the Internet; (0+ / 0-)

          emails?

          what about hoovering up ALL phone calls?

          tapping Merkel's cell phone?

          Why are they doing this exactly? is Ms Merkel consorting with terrorists, or is this more about corporate espionage-- the rather large gorilla in the room?

          "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

          by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:08:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I always assumed the Internet: (0+ / 0-)

            but that was before Snowden's leaks proved how out of control the NSA has become. Yes, I think he's a hero.

            Wish I could see a way to put this genie back in its bottle, but I don't. Do you?

            The government is NOT going to give up any power it can take. That's true of all governments everywhere. And the NSA has been grabbing the power to, as you say, hoover everything up. How do we end it?

            Disband the NSA. Get rid of all the surveillance equipment, the centers where terabytes are stored, all that.

            Do you see that happening? I don't. I'm all for it. It just isn't realistic to expect.

            WHY are they doing it? Because they CAN. It's why tyrants always do things. With nothing and no one to rein them in, they are out-of-control control freaks.

            English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgment and education - sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street. E. B. White

            by Youffraita on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 11:30:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  And you fail to see how this power is used (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stevemb

      the all seeing-eye of the surveillance state gets used on people's movements.  Be it anti-war, prison reform, for food safety, environmental protection or to protect rights in the workplace.  

      Without an unblinking eye focused on us, and the attendant counter-progessive activity by the state putting its thumb on the scale, winning will be much easier.  

      I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

      by DavidMS on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 04:32:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The FBI did just fine with their abuse in the 60s (0+ / 0-)

        without knowing what phone number someone dialed

        Unless you are talking about firing all NSA/FBI/CIA workers, the potential for an all seeing-eye state is still there

        What the NSA is being "exposed" as doing is nothing compared to what the US police state has done in the past

        And don't talk about this affecting "winning" I've heard enough of that garbage in 2008 about how the Patriot Act and corporatist controlling Diebold machines were going to steal the election

        It's that same crowd asking that I take them seriously on this, well...mostly the same crowd, also a lot of Rand Paul supporters who can't wait to vote for him over Hillary in 2016

    •  Getting lectured by people who surely have ... (6+ / 0-)

      More money than me about how my anger towards the surveillance state is oriented out of being upper-class, meanwhile, is just so fucking fascinating.

      Jesus, you're a bore.

    •  Because MLK and Fred Hampton would be alive (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, Superpole, lunachickie

      today if only the government could have recorded their every communication, and know everyplace they went, and not just the occasional phone call tapped for COINTELPRO!

      Do you really not understand that intelligence agencies, armed authorities, are helmed, staffed at the top, by right-wingers, racists, paranoids (in both the fear-filled and grandiose senses)? Really? Or do you think things are going so well for black citizens of this nation that nobody'll have to organize around civil rights and against injustice ever again? Because Obama?

      I really don't understand what you imagine is going on in this country. How this shit impacts every one who wants to change the way things are going. Regardless of race, creed, or lack of being a multimillionaire.


      Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

      by Jim P on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 12:29:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Can I give you something "powerful" ? (0+ / 0-)

      NSA budget $10 Billion per year.

      Lots of money to waste spying on the world with no real results to show for it but meanwhile the government is cutting funding for school lunch programs, education and unemployment benefits.

      Is that powerful enough?

      I'm not sure where you get the "only motivated by this" thing because I don't see this topic dominating daily kos, but then, maybe you only pay attention the these diaries and have magic glasses to find the white people commenting in them?

    •  You seriously think that's what it's about. (0+ / 0-)
      how people are worried the NSA recorded a number they dialed a year ago and is stored with billions of other calls in a database
      Aaaaaallll righty then.  If after all this time, and all the information available, you still think that's what it's about, and that's what's been happening, then... well, sorry. You're beyond help.

      "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

      by gharlane on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 01:33:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If Rand Paul, or someone like him,... (15+ / 0-)

    ...proposes to get Snowden back, he will get a lot of primary votes.

    Poll: Edward Snowden Seen as 'Whistle-blower,' Not 'Traitor'

    Republicans, at 55 percent, and independent voters, at 58 percent, were more likely to say Snowden is a whistle-blower. Among Democrats, just 49 percent chose that option.
    This cuts through party lines but I wish more Dems saw Snowden as I see him, a heroic whistleblower.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:42:18 PM PST

  •  I keep getting told it's not about Snowden... (11+ / 0-)

    ...and then I keep seeing these diaries saying Snowden's not getting the credit he deserves.

    I do wish this here collection of individual diarists and commenters would make up its mind.

    Non futuis apud Boston

    by kenlac on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 01:45:08 PM PST

  •  There is no difference between Obama and Chistie. (4+ / 0-)

    They both use intimidation to further their political agendas.

    "It's no measure of health being well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

    by buckshot face on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 02:47:29 PM PST

  •  Wait, what?? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    martini

    What do you mean, MIA here?

    this monster drives the final nail into the coffin of the MIA LIBERAL LEFT in our nation.
    Are you talking about "the LIBERAL LEFT" in our government? If so, you might want to edit the word "nation". Because the Liberal Left isn't missing, it's being marginalized by "public airwaves" and their attendant bullshit and propaganda.

    Mind you, I absolutely agree with you otherwise. But I am not a huge fan of sweeping generalization...

    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

    by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:11:03 PM PST

    •  LOL.... No, I could hardly talking about (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      martini

      what does not exist other than a handful like Bernie Sanders.

      I am talking about the active Left in our NATION.

      where are they I wonder?? what are they doing that can be credibly considered significant leftist actions?? electing people to school boards?

      I'd really like to know.

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:24:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You *did* see this part, right? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NonnyO, martini
        it's being marginalized by "public airwaves" and their attendant bullshit and propaganda.
         
        My point is "the nation" there, so thanks for the clarity on your end. All I can say in further response is that it's already been marginalized in the federal government.  

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:31:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh YES.. I did see that (0+ / 0-)

          I don't buy it.

          Was there a liberal media to help Abbie Hoffman? Tom Hayden? Jerry Rubin? Timothy Leary?

          NOPE.

          Must I drag out Jello Biafra's prescient take on the media, ONE MORE TIME for you?

          "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

          by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:54:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Those guys emerged (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lunachickie, Knucklehead

            …before the Fairness Doctrine was revoked.

            They probably inspired the revocation.

          •  What the hell are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

            Where in that statement does there posit that "media" is "liberal"?

            Answer: it doesn't.

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 06:41:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL... (0+ / 0-)

              OK.. was there ANY mainstream media who assisted the Leftists in the 1960's??

              who would that be, I wonder?

              Rolling Stone? that's not mainstream media.

              "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

              by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:19:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why are you even ASKING me this? (0+ / 0-)

                I made no fucking mention of "liberal media". If you know the first thing about what I go on about regularly around here, you know I would never even allude to it.

                You're so far off the point of my original comment, it's almost as if you're doing so intentionally.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 07:08:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So You Did NOT Say (0+ / 0-)

                  "mainstream media marginalizes the left in our nation"??

                  No?

                  Noted when I stated "I Don't Buy It", you had little to say.

                  dropping the F bomb further reinforces the non compelling-ness of your take... it's the same nonsensical take I see here in diaries on a nearly daily basis.. the groaning,

                  "Ohhhhhh, if only the MEDIA would do their jobs!" which that in itself reflects both a sad and hilarious non understanding of what lamestream media is all about.

                  still need that Biafra quote?

                  "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

                  by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:11:01 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So you're saying they DON'T. (0+ / 0-)

                    And that's just bullshit.

                    "mainstream media marginalizes the left in our nation"
                    The hell they don't. In fact, I've noticed a distinct trend by them--and I'm hardly alone--to mis-appropriate the word "progressive", to be applied to Neo-Liberals, as if they were ever one bit progressive.

                    Way to help them out there, spunky!

                    Your name-dropping doesn't impress me, either.

                    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                    by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:18:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK, You're Laziness Forced Me: (0+ / 0-)

                      Stop complaining about the media, BECOME the media!

                      Jello Biafra

                      the FACT you, numerous liberals insist on demanding the oligarchy-owned media in our nation do your job for you is as I said, hilarious.. it's also pathetic in a way.

                      let's face it, it's nothing but keyboard "activism".

                      if that's what you call active Leftist action there's nothing more for me to do other than chuckle as I head for my work out today.

                      Liberals here and elsewhere in progressive bloggo world are very adept at making feeble excuses for the total lack of economic progress in our nation.. soon to be under eight years watch of a democratic POTUS and a democratically controlled Senate.

                      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

                      by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:26:26 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Stop throwing Jello Biafra around (0+ / 0-)

                        and answer the question being put to you. You were probably still in nappies when I was shooting front-row stills of East Bay Ray.

                        I am not making excuses for "neo-liberals"--neo-liberals are mollycoddling conservatives in our media and they always have. They pretend now that Barack Obama is a progressive and that's just so much bullshit. What I see in the meantime is someone who seems to be getting more and more pissed off about being busted on their repeated insistence in lumping Barack Obama in with "progressive Democrats" just like today's media is trying to do. He isn't. He never was.

                        When will you acknowledge that's part of your message here?   I want to know why you're pushing it in an Edward Snowden defense diary. Was that to guarantee eyeballs on it?

                        Try being more subtle next time, won't you?

                        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                        by lunachickie on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 08:44:08 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

  •  Snowden is a traitor so who cares (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Terri

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:37:53 PM PST

  •  I agree with Rand Paul more than the Dems (7+ / 0-)

    these days. And that's a sad commentary about Dems considering Paul is batshit crazy.

    Paul wants to stop the ENDLESS POINTLESS WARS. The Dems are to be whore's to the MIC.

    Paul defends the constitution. The Dems are shredding it to "keep us safe" -- safe, yeah right.

    Kinda reminds me of Bush's last 4 years -- I couldn't wait for it to be over.


    No longer Hoping for Change. Now Praying for a Miracle. 🍞 & 🎪

    by CitizenOfEarth on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 03:52:25 PM PST

    •  Similar Take (8+ / 0-)

      I'm not a fan of Ayn Rand Paul.. in fact I think he's a lot like Peter Seller's character Dr. Strangelove; right down to the goofy hair and goofy way he talks.

      BUT when he said "I don't want the calls recorded AT ALL"..

      that took balls, and he's right.

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 04:24:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rand Paul? (0+ / 0-)

      You mean the Rand Paul that's a ridiculous racist who cares about protecting the rights of some people, but no problem going in and sniping down others? That Rand Paul? If you are seriously backing Rand Paul, then feel free to leave the Democratic Party. The less people we have openly supporting racists around here the better.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:22:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa (0+ / 0-)

        Thus you're OK with the government hoovering up all of our personal communications-- at the cost of Billions dollars per year??

        even tho' it's clear NO terrorists are being thwarted with this hideous effort?

        "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

        by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:23:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

          Where did I saw I supported what the NSA was doing? I guess supporting racists really does short-circuit the brain. Good luck with that.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 10:05:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  What the FUCK are you talking about (0+ / 0-)

        Your comment:

        If you are seriously backing Rand Paul,
        vs. COE:
        And that's a sad commentary about Dems considering Paul is batshit crazy.
        THAT'S "backing Rand Paul"?

        The stupid is mighty thick in you.

        "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

        by gharlane on Mon Jan 20, 2014 at 01:45:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why is this Obama's? It's W's infrastructure, and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, doroma

    clearly ALL reports show the worst and most egregious practices ended under the Obama administration.

    And don't think for a second a Warren or Grayson administration will do Thing One to curtail it either.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 09:09:54 PM PST

    •  Clearly... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, lunachickie, gharlane

      You haven't been keeping up with this issue.

      Which contradicts my recollection of things. I seem to recall your participation in several diaries related to this topic over the last several months.

      Why on earth would you question Obama's ownership of this mess?

      The "blame it on Bush" thing isn't as effective as it once was, especially now that Obama is almost halfway through his second term.

      Should we try to call up Bush and ask him to take a break from painting pictures so he can undo the infrastructure he put in place?

      Or do you think the current occupant of the White House might be in a better position to address that infrastructure passed on to him by his predecessor?

      And your speculation wrt to the acts of hypothetical future Democratic presidents is irrelevant, and strikes me as a weak attempt to excuse the lack of action by THIS Democratic president.




      Winter grey, pouring rain. We'll see summer come again.
      Darkness falls, seasons change. Same old friends, the wind and rain.

      by DeadHead on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 01:38:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Various Officials (0+ / 0-)

      are lying to us... not to mention congress sort of attempted to stop TIA back in what? 2004? obviously they did NOT succeed.. so I wonder why I should believe certain practices ended when Obama took office?

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:25:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  From Daily Kos transcripts editors is this.. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, WheninRome, DeadHead, Superpole

    ..paragraph of the Presidents statement on January 17, 2014

    Finally, intelligence agencies cannot function without secrecy, which makes their work less subject to public debate. Yet there is an inevitable bias not only within the intelligence community, but among all who are responsible for national security, to collect more information about the world, not less.
    So in the absence of institutional requirements for regular debate – and oversight that is public, as well as private – the danger of government overreach becomes more acute.
    This is particularly true when surveillance technology and our reliance on digital information is evolving much faster than our laws.
     - emphasis added
    Though not mentioning Snowden's contribution directly the President does make an affirmation that Snowden's 'whistle blowing ' "oversight that is public, as well as private " is required as oversight for some much needed awareness on domestic spying (and in fact the whole question of spying and its oversight in general) although it is definitely made very quietly and without the emphasis that would make it noticed easily.

    So
    What Kevin Drum @ Mother Joes says:
    President Obama Finally Releases His Surveillance Reform Plan, and It's Pretty Weak Tea - Fri Jan. 17, 2014 9:10 AM GMT

    Kevin Drum gives a pretty good rundown on it concluding with this: Good intentions aren't enough.

    Thx Superpole - this whole spying mess presents a menacing picture of how things are heading.

    We need more than "weak tea" solutions. We need a mind you own fucking business policy at the top of the priority list - imo

    P.S. I don't give Rand Paul any credit though. He and his dad have been glomming on Progressive ideas for years with very little actual commitment to progressive/liberal cause when it comes right down to it.

    •  Thanks, Eric, for slowing the race down (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eric Nelson

      …and giving pause with the quotes you cited.

      I see at least four levels upon which they can be understood, depending on one's education and exposure to war/game strategies and geopolitics.

      As I said earlier, this unfolding of the state of the state has not even started. At least not in the US. The rest of the world knows exactly what needs to be done to marginalize and neutralize US intelligence overreach.

      And, on behalf of the future (limited) freedom of the USian people, thank god for that.

    •  Thanks, Man.. Great Take (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eric Nelson

      big fan of Kevin Drum and "Mother Joe's" in general.. but couple of things..

      it's where we are NOW... and we don't know everything we should.. we only know (well, many of us suspected) this much because of the actions of Mr. Snowden.

      it's not "where we are heading".

      and IF the POTUS has said anything significant regarding this gigantic fiasco, it's because Snowden forced his hand... just like blustery Biden forced him to "evolve" on gay rights.

      as far as END THE FED wacky Paul's... I'm no fan. however, in times of crisis, certain things need to be said-- and Rand Paul did that. in the end, history will look kindly on this.

      "It is essential that there should be organization of Labor. Capital organizes & therefore Labor must organize" Theodore Roosevelt

      by Superpole on Sun Jan 19, 2014 at 06:34:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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