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I wish you the best when you go to the creationist museum.   Please don’t spend too much time defending evolution.   Most in the audience will have already made up their opinion long before they enter that room.  Some people in that room will think you’re going to burn in hell.  I assume you may not think highly of their beliefs either. You need to explain how creationism is incorrect, and provide convincing scientific evidence to have creationists question a core belief. The best way to have them question this is to show evidence of civilization that is over 10,000 years ago.  The compelling issue of this evidence is its location.  They’re all deep under the ocean and scattered around the globe.

Oh, yes.  There was a great flood, a Glacial flood and ocean never receded.  It lasted over 8000 years. Oceans rose four feet a century on average, sometimes even 9 feet in one year.  Civilization relies on a stable coastline, and recorded history starts only two thousand years after the ocean levels stabilized.

The prior time when there was stable coastline was between 25,000 and 16,000 years ago, when ocean levels were 350 feet below current levels.  There is evidence of civilization at that depth, exactly where it would be expected.

There is also a question of morality.

Those who believe in evolution have a disagreement with creationists.  “Evolutionists” believe that life is a flow, like a never-ending blossoming flower.  Creationists believe in a beginning date, and do not believe man lived before that date.  What is the morality in denying the existence of earlier generations?

Originally posted to Frank Paine on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:04 AM PST.

Also republished by Progressive Atheists.


Does Religion Trump Science?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Will you add a P.S. For me? (7+ / 0-)

    I think it is dangerous for him to be around people for whom logic has been supplanted with mythology. Challenging their beliefs is perceived by them as violent and they tend to respond violently.

  •  no Pi choice? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IB JOHN, quill, Kingsmeg

    I don't know what kind of debater Nye is, but I do love how he can amuse, entertain, educate, and excite children of all ages, even us with faded hair.  Pity most of this audience will be immune to any of those aspects, except being children, in a mental sort of way.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:22:31 AM PST

    •  I've heard him with loonies around (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and they will eat him for lunch.

      The only way he could defend a square centimeter of ground is to send in an empty chair for a substitute.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:32:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, there are indeed ruins (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IB JOHN, Kingsmeg

    of early civilizations, civilizations that existed long before the Biblical beginning of the world. But how can we be sure that those ruins are not the work of the Devil, created in order to sow seeds of doubt amongst the faithful? If the Devil is capable of creating carbon dating in order to destroy our faith, is he not capable of creating archeological ruins?

  •  This is something that the Dominion Theorists (0+ / 0-)

    have wanted and planned for some time - See item #1 under the Five Year Objectives here at the Discovery Institute's Wedge Document on Wikipedia

  •  Jefferson Bass (a combination of 2 writers) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    wrote something about this issue in one of their books (btw, Bass is Dr. William Bass, the originator of the Body Farm). Several issues that "prove" evoluation or at least point to a change in people unrelated to creation, sorry "intelligent design" - such as the number of teeth, smaller jaws, fossil record, cranium getting larger, hernias, valves in the veins of the lower legs, etc.

    A few comments about the current (and some of the changes talked about are less than 1000 years in the making) state of human beings will shut down the notion of "creationism" quickly. We are constantly evolving (not being created) in the process of living (what's that saying - "change or die").

    Fossils that stop 65 million years ago show the dinosaurs were killed off then (meteor, disease, who knows). People evolved and with the news that most Europeans (and very few Africans) show that everyone came from Africa but the Europeans interbred with Neanderthals just was introduced to the world.

    I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

    by woolibaar on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 08:47:04 AM PST

    •  Even though our early (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sylv, MEL in PGH

      ancestors thought it was fine to intermarry with a completely different species, somehow, millions of years later, we're still debating whether it's okay for certain humans to marry other humans.

      •  Slow down cowboy. Same species marriage. (0+ / 0-)
        The Neanderthals or Neandertals (niˈændərˌθɔːlz, niˈændərˌtɔːlz, niˈændərˌtɑːlz, neɪˈɑːndərˌtɑːlz or niˈændərθəlz)[1] are an extinct species of human in the genus Homo, possibly a subspecies of Homo sapiens link

        Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

        by 88kathy on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 11:59:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have a roommate like this... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tinfoil Hat

    He shot his mouth off that unless you believe the earth is only 5000 year old (couldn't even get the correct number) that you can't be a believer. (I do believe in evolution and am a Follower of Christ.)

    When I told him he needed to get rid of all of his electronics...don't see a modern doctor and move back to ancient place his ancestors came from before coming to America...he told me he loved all of this and wouldn't give it up. When I then told him he shouldn't use all of these because Science gave us the knowledge to have these items...he said that was different. He is soon becoming my that he can be as stupid as he wants to be.

  •  I don't particularly care (0+ / 0-)

    what people believe happened 6,000 years ago.  Bill Nye should use this opportunity to exhort creationists to at least become technically and mathematically proficient.  

  •  The problem with Creationists is that they limit (0+ / 0-)

    scope of Creation to something only man could know.

    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

    by 88kathy on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 11:52:10 AM PST

  •  Although the evidence of human habitation (0+ / 0-)

    below current sea levels in past ice ages is valuable science, it has nothing to do with this debate. No fact of any kind has anything to do with this debate.

    What matters to Creationists is that they have been taught that they will personally go to Hell if Adam and Eve and the Serpent and the Fall and Original Sin are not historical facts. If it isn't history, they believe, Jesus could not redeem them from Original Sin through the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, and their omnipotent God himself [sic] cannot save them from himself. This is their publicly stated reason, for example on Ken Ham's Answers in Genesis Web site.

    Or else they won't admit that they are descended from Black Africans just like everybody else. Some even claim instead that Blacks were made mentally and morally inferior because of a historical sin of Canaan, Noah's son, after the Flood. This so-called Curse of Ham theology was dominant during slavery. Most of them won't cop to the racism any more, but it's still important to large numbers. Obviously, this does not explain Black Creationists, for whom see the argument above.

    Sufficiently strong fear can prevent acceptance, indeed consideration, of any collection of observable facts whatsoever.

    We do not need Nye to debate the Creationists. We need mainstream Christians using a different version of Christian rather than scientific logic. Try this.

    If Original Sin is not historical, then within Christian teaching it must have some other character in accordance with God's Will. God has told us of a plan for Redemption through both faith and works, other that what you were thinking, without explaining how it would operate. Now who are you to be questioning God's Plan?

    Then we can quote Jesus on the subject, since he is on record explicitly telling people they would go to Heaven during his lifetime, before the Crucifixion and Resurrection. The common Christian claim that no Jew ever went to Heaven before the Resurrection is ahistorical, anti-Semitic, and an insult to God that to my mind is beneath contempt. But then I was never a Christian, and I have been a Jew.

    Anybody who can accept that Creation does not have to be history, and can stand being thrown into the outer darkness by their previous community, will then be open to a discussion of observational fact and the theories we have built upon them. In the same way the Catholic Church accepted the results put forward by Galileo, Kepler and Newton about a century later, and eventually got around to apologizing to Galileo for giving him the second degree and condemning him for heresy.

    That conversation with any particular convert could still take a while, depending on how much they already know.

    I am a Buddhist. We don't have Original Sin, but we do have beginningless greed, hatred, and delusion that we can overcome because we share in the universal Buddha Nature, but cannot overcome by any action of the selfish mind. We also have a teaching called Skill in Means which tells us that we sometimes have to tell people something helpful that they can understand based on their current beliefs and understanding, rather then the full truth.

    Like teaching Newtonian physics before getting into Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

    Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

    by Mokurai on Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 12:41:04 PM PST

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