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The United States Capitol dome at dawn.
Who gets it next?
This New York Times story about Democrats pondering how to win back white "working class" men is oddly depressing. Yes, it's a task that needs to be done, but that it needs to be done is an ongoing symptom of a great many depressing things.
No Democratic presidential candidate has won a majority of white men since Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all prevailed with support of the so-called rising electorate of women, especially single women, and minorities. But fewer of those voters typically participate in midterm elections, making the votes of white men more potent and the struggle of Democrats for 2014 clear.
The reason for the shift in the 1960s is left politely unsaid, other than a Republican aside supposing that more recent Democratic appeals to "women, minorities and gays" may have been "counterproductive" with white men. A studiously charitable reason for the gap may be simple self-interest; white men have no great need to hear about how a party will protect their rights, because they do not have the same reminders of needing that protection. Others see the championing of civil rights as a zero sum game; rights given to others must naturally be coming from somewhere, i.e. out of their own hides. What else you got?
A big reason for Democrats’ emphasis on raising the minimum wage is the polling proof that the issue resonates with all groups, including white men. In Michigan, Mr. Houston is leading an effort to place a minimum-wage increase on the November ballot and said it “really polls well with white men.”
Please read below the fold for more on this story.

Ah, now that's something. One of the few things nearly all non-wealthy Americans have been able to agree on over the last few decades is that they, personally, are being screwed in the workplace. You can lie to people about a great many things, but not about the contents of their own pockets. A party could definitely make something of the increasingly dim economic prospects of anyone who does Actual Damn Work for a living, if a party were inclined. And if a party did not itself have to rely on the financial largesse of the wealthy Americans doing the screwing.

Some white men have proved to be within reach: single men, college students and graduates with advanced degrees, the nonreligious, and gay men. But working-class married men remain hardest to win over and, unless they are in unions, get the least attention — to the dismay of some partisans.
And they ain't in unions, because unions have been demonized for forty years. The manufacturing sectors that best championed worker protections in previous decades have steadily flown the coop for less restrictive environs, places where fingers are still considered optional accessories and nations where, if your poorly built factory collapses in upon its entire workforce, your most pressing concern will be finding a new space to rent and determining what of the machinery might be salvaged. You would think that there would be some correlation between the economic malaise of the workforce and the indelicate surgeries that keep amputating limbs from the organizations that they once formed to protect themselves, but as far as any business leader has been able to tell us it is just uncanny coincidence. Go figure.

It does seem clear that to appeal to that now-minority group "working class white men of average education," the party needs to appeal to their economic interests. There's no major subsection of the American public that has ever been impressed by fairness to groups other than their own, and certainly not during dark economic times. This would be the usual time when we all pipe up suggesting the party look into some of the new shiny notions a certain Elizabeth Warren has been lobbing into the public discourse, to use one of several examples, but we seem to be forever limited to only notions that will not make Wall Street sad, and the list of things that make Wall Street sad has been growing quite a bit, these last few elections. What to do?

Originally posted to Hunter on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:06 PM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (131+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ferg, Glen The Plumber, wdrath, howabout, Mostel26, slowbutsure, CwV, Egalitare, bear83, belinda ridgewood, GAS, kenwards, WisePiper, doroma, Penny GC, Sylv, Visceral, sethtriggs, unclejohn, jotter, Darmok, puakev, Matt Z, mungley, Denver11, ratcityreprobate, blueoregon, implicate order, EdSF, blue aardvark, 88kathy, trumpeter, aitchdee, cybersaur, DaNang65, enhydra lutris, kimoconnor, Overseas, Odysseus, joedemocrat, checkerspot, FarWestGirl, countwebb, wader, mikeconwell, rapala, Involuntary Exile, hester, rat racer, greenomanic, grrr, DavidMS, Onomastic, NoMoreLies, kurt, TrueBlueMajority, yoduuuh do or do not, Greyhound, RMForbes, Brian82, blackjackal, oceanview, SCFrog, monkeybrainpolitics, Moody Loner, Capt Crunch, mconvente, tonyahky, mookins, wintergreen8694, ruellia, glitterlust, jbsoul, Anima, AlwaysDemocrat, asindc, NYC Sophia, YucatanMan, pvasileff, Buckeye Nut Schell, oldpotsmuggler, Big River Bandido, Aunt Pat, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Mimikatz, devis1, basquebob, CoolOnion, kjoftherock, JamieG from Md, Bridge Master, TX Freethinker, OllieGarkey, camlbacker, FogCityJohn, greenbird, navajo, maggiejean, left of center, begone, KBS666, roses, kaliope, Executive Odor, HedwigKos, mir123nj, Chitown Kev, kravitz, brn2bwild, decisivemoment, citizen dan, redwagon, KJG52, cocinero, PrincetonDem, Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle, wbr, Lefty Coaster, ksuwildkat, fabucat, No Exit, TAH from SLC, Square Knot, johnmorris, TKO333, miasmo, Liberal Thinking, Jeff Y, fenway49, oortdust, avsp
  •  Chasing racist, homophobic, and sexist (53+ / 0-)

    white men is a fool's errand.  Younger white men can be reached on a number of issues, but the dream of using economic issues to bring white men back has rarely worked.  

    I suspect the white men outside the South vote much more for Dems.  

    For years Dems have missed their southern reactionary arm.  Recently, many seem to have let go of the dream.  Good.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:16:32 PM PST

      •  Obama won each state in 2012. (14+ / 0-)

        Chasing the votes of bigots is a poor use of resources.

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:47:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are a majority of white males bigots? (13+ / 0-)

          I really hope that isn't true - I'll even assume it isn't true for planning purposes.

            •  OK, define "old"... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell, Jarrayy

              ...and step carefully while so doing.

              The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

              by wesmorgan1 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:57:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The majority - not all - are likely (6+ / 0-)

              racially biased.  It was deeply imbedded in our culture.  Many seniors of the WW2 generation look back nostalgically on the 1950's, not realizing that period was good only for white males.  They want our country to become Leave it To Beaver or Father Knows best.  

              •  Not that you are stereotyping huh? N/T (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jarrayy, WillR
              •  Well, now I feel like a minority (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Satya1, WillR, fenway49

                55 year old white male, not a bigot, not homophobic, middle class working stiff. Since I seem to be a minority, will it be ok with you all if I vote democrat?

                If you are not the lead dog, the view never changes.

                by RepresentUsPlease on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:23:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Let me elaborate.... (0+ / 0-)

                  I said racially biased.  You used the word bigot.  I would go on to say that the majority (again, that word) of older white males in America would deny the concept of white privilege.  And I don't blame them.

                   Seniors (65 plus) were raised in a white world, where all advertising was lily white and all (but a handful) of films and TV shows displayed white people.  And integration had not yet occurred.  Their worldview was formed in a lily white world.

                  The lens through which they view the world was formed in the 30s-50s.  And it is difficult to break out of that kind of subtle indoctrination.

              •  This is also political economics. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mightymouse, a2nite

                Each party has their path to 50.1% of the vote.  Republicans need 60% of white men to get there.  We need a little better than 40% to get ours.  So of course they bend their message more in that direction.  

                I don't think white men vote 60/40 for Republicans out of racial animus any more than blacks for 90/10 for Democrats because they are bigoted.  The decision is usually rationale, with some irrational influence like group identity, to keep things interesting.

                "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

                by Spider Stumbled on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:06:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Well, the World War II "GI Generation" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                a2nite, fenway49

                according to people (like me) who study generational theory will tell you the "GI Generation" who fought in and won World War II were born between 1901 and 1924.

                Here in 2014 that means the YOUNGEST members of that generation will turn 90 years old this year, and the ones across the whole country who really will turn 113 can be counted on your fingers and toes.

                The influence of that generation is over and done, and to assert the D-Day vets and "Rosie the Riveters" are influencing partisan voting behavior that is measured in the millions is absurd. And that's just the numbers.....

                Its true these days older voters skew white, Southern and (lately) GOP, but it was not always true. I would be very chary of anticipating the Boomers, for instance, (the leading edge of whom, born 1943 and turning 71 this year; going by attitudes and outlook rather than by the Census Bureau's 1946 measurement of parental fecundity) to be as white as they generations ahead of them. (They are not.) They are NOT all that interested in moving to Florida and Arizona because they still don't want to copy their (GI generation) parents. (Notice the "mother-in-law" apartments being added to home designs; construction of "senior living centers" from Washington to Maine, etc.; the resurrection of mass transit in urban cores that is not only more eco-friendly than autos, but also allows seniors to get around without cars. The signs are thick the Boomers more or less intend to age in place.)

                Give it 10 years. If the GOP doesn't figure out a way to break out of its angry, regional box it will be dead and the Democratic party will be bifurcating into Blue-Dog and Progressive wings, each led by loud, arguing Boomer seniors.

                Shalom.

                "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

                by WineRev on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:19:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can also include those born (0+ / 0-)

                  ten years later.  This is my generation, and as children we helped with the war effort collecting cooking grease, tinfoil from cany/gum wrapper, bought savings stamps in school, lived through rationing,etc., and were very patriotic.  We witnessed a right and wrong side, we saw a triumphant end of a war and saw the jubilation of being on the winning side.

                  There are many in this age group (men), who still believe in military might over what is right. Even though they didn't fight, they felt the "glory."

                  Of course, not all men/woman still feel this way; hopefully they have witnessed enough of life and history to realize that was then and WWII is in a completely different category.

            •  Poppycock. Stereotyping and scapegoating. n/t (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell, Jarrayy

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:21:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Why do you think LBJ was the last Democrat (13+ / 0-)

            to win white males?  What historical event occurred around that time?

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:25:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Vietnam War. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wintergreen8694

              I assume you mean the Civil Rights Act - and that probably accounts for a lot of white males leaving the Party. (It would be useful to see data over the years, state by state.)

              But it was also the Vietnam War.  The later opposition to it by McGovern and others won over some white males, but the claim that Democrats were weak drove a lot more away.

              The "Scoop Jackson wing" of the Party is pretty much gone now, like the Rockefeller wing the Republicans once had.

              •  Well, same lesson though. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mookins, lordcopper, TomP

                We lost people who were firmly planted on the wrong side of divisive issues.  What difference does it make which issue it was?

                It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

                by Rich in PA on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:44:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Then you would agree the racial attitudes of (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP, redwagon, Tonedevil

                "white males" are central to their decision to leave the Democratic Party?

                "Because I am a river to my people."

                by lordcopper on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:27:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I wouldn't. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CA148 NEWS, WineRev

                  For a portion of them, sure.

                  But it is much messier than that, involving perceptions of isolationism in the Democratic Party and involving social issues from drug use to abortion to a (carefully encouraged) distrust of government effectiveness.

                  In the mid-70s, the claim was that Dems supported "acid, abortion, and amnesty."  None of those was principally a racial issue.

                  For Dems to say, "Screw em all, they're all racists" is as self-defeating as a store dismissing everyone who who doesn't shop there as having no taste.

                  •  Strawman argument I don't think anyone has said (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil
                    "Screw em all, they're all racists"
                    I'm responding to the reflexive defense of white males' choice of the Republican Party over the Democratic Party (by Democrats on a Democratic blog).  In that context, it is impossible to argue that race isn't the central factor. Surely you're not going to argue that white males use drugs in lesser numbers, are less likely to be involve tangentially in abortions, and weren't the biggest recipients of amnesty.  Let's be honest, it s what it is.  And given that fact, it would be stupid to marginalize existing Democratic voters in search of the "white whale".

                    "Because I am a river to my people."

                    by lordcopper on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 05:58:19 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Amnesty (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Elwood Dowd

                    is pretty racist. In Oak Cliff (South Dallas) where I live, there is a body shop that, for several years now, has been named "La Amnestia". Nobody thinks that's about some one's girl friend's name.

                    "If I pay a man enough money to buy my car, he'll buy my car." Henry Ford

                    by johnmorris on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 07:53:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  A diary a few weeks ago cited a study showing (11+ / 0-)

                that nearly ALL of the Democratic Party's decline in white male support since LBJ has occurred in the south.  According to the study, Dem's support among white males outside the south has decreased just one percentage point since LBJ.  But Dem's support among white males in the south has totally cratered since LBJ.  Sorry, but it ain't due to Vietnam.

                •  I agree--no it ain't--- (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  redwagon, Tonedevil

                  all due to Viet Nam---I mean.

                  But I think most of the siphoning off has to do with the successful messaging tactics of the gop.

                  At one time, the democratic party WAS the party of the blue-collar worker.

                  We were associated with the working man, and woman.

                  With the republican party's emphasis on wealth, and wealthy people, and their contempt for anyone who works for a paycheck, we should try to associate the democratic party with the working man, and the republican party with the non-working man.

                  Would that work?

                  "The people who were trying to make this world worse are not taking the day off. Why should I?”---Bob Marley

                  by lyvwyr101 on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:50:25 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  The Beatles? (6+ / 0-)

              "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

              by kovie on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:31:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I agree. Why waste the energy, time and money? (0+ / 0-)
      •  If you look at the rest ... (28+ / 0-)

        ... of each poll, you'll notice a trend.

        In Pennsylvania, for example, white people in general do not favor Obama. Older demographics tended to vote Romney, as did wealthier demographics. Also, much of the Romney vote in that state looks like a backlash against the incumbent reflecting the economic situation, and some of it, of course, is purely ideological.

        In other words, just looking at white males as a monolithic group and drawing conclusions doesn't tell the whole story. Especially when the active voters within that group are proportionately older, wealthier, and ideologically right-leaning in their predisposition.

        Then the question is not, "how do we win over this group that probably won't ever want to vote for us?" The question is, "how do we turn out the younger, lower income voters that overwhelmingly will, but more rarely show up at the ballot box?"

        ---

        "God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

        by dzog on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:02:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (12+ / 0-)

          Thank you.

          There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

          by Onomastic on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:08:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  How is the breakdown trending, though? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Onomastic, TomP, wishingwell

          Especially in races without Obama on the ticket. I'm guessing that despite various blips, over the past 20 years it's been gradually trending Dem, however incrementally. The old racists are dying out and their offspring are probably somewhat less racist.

          "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

          by kovie on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:32:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  but you don't need to target "white men" to get (5+ / 0-)

          those votes. You get those people with the same democratic party policies that get all the other groups of voters.

          Thus trying to go after "white men" is a waste of time. Democrats already have a majority or a near majority of the non-bigoted white men.

          Also, let's say a woman or a white man is the presidential candidate from the democrats. That automatically gains us some bigots who voted republican but are not actually conservative, just bigoted people who stopped looking into the issues but would vote for a white liberal.

        •  You're not trying to reach all white men. (7+ / 0-)

          You're trying to peel off enough of them that "white men" as a large demographic group are no longer a reliable Republican constituency.

          In places where racism isn't too badly entrenched, you're just trying to peel off 10-15%.

          As an ignorant guess, I think that the working class white guys who are "reachable" fall into two big groups:

          1) Younger boomers - 50-60 - who live in the inner suburbs or some smaller cities, with some or no college. These folks aren't that well off. They've worked hard all their lives and yet they don't have much to show for it, largely due to the trade and labor policies of the last 40 years, plus the Bush Recession of 2008.

          2) Millennials (or whatever you want to call them) - 18-30 - with anywhere from a high school to a non-professional bachelor's degree. these folks are mostly on our side on social issues like Gay Rights and Women's Rights, but maybe not so politically correct on Minority Rights. They've gotten hit hard by the Republican mismanagement (direct or indirect) of the last 15 or so years and seem to be instinctively primed for a very progressive message on many levels. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party seems to have done a lousy job engaging their attention and loyalty. We need to "bring these guys home."

          IMO, the groups we really can't reach are the remaining "WW2 generation" and "Silent generation" types, as well as the older boomers and the Gen Xers. Lucky for us, the first two categories are dying off fast, and there aren't many X'ers relatively speaking.

          The people much over 60 are still trying to wrap their heads around equal rights for people aren't white males and the concept of a Democratic party that represents women, minorities and city dwellers. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but I think that they're the least likely to change their voting habits.

          Because they've been hit really badly by the Republican policies of the last 40 years, in theory, the working class X'ers should be ripe for the picking by any Democrat worth his salt. Sadly, it's not going to happen because of all that freakin' Ronald Reagan Kool-Ade they drank in the 80s.

          About that hope-y, change-y thing. It was going great until the Republicans fucked it up.

          by Permanent Republican Minority on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 09:15:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            redwagon, wishingwell, Tonedevil

            No one is saying that we have to peel of 50% + 1 of white male voters.

            Obama did quite a bit of "peeling off just enough" esp. in 2008 and esp. in Indiana and North carolina.

          •  ORLY (0+ / 0-)

            I guess my white male grandfather who was WWII generation and did pro bono legal work for the Sanctuary movement in Arizona isn't liberal enough.

            I guess his son, my uncle, who a is boomer and a no kidding ACLU lawyer and has spent his entire career defending the rights of migrant workers isn't enough of a Democrat.  

            Go figure the party has troubles reaching out to while makes with so many here and other places ASSUME because you are white and male you are a TeaParty asshole.

            It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

            by ksuwildkat on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:44:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The commenter (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Calamity Jean

              was not talking about white men of particular generations who have been liberals all along, but about peeling off those who currently vote Republican.

              I agree with you, though, that it's not accurate to assume even Republican voters of certain generations can't possibly be reached, or (worse) to confuse a 55-45 split with "all" people in the group being racist Tea Party jerks.

              “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

              by fenway49 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:07:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I hear you (0+ / 0-)

                but the OP was pretty clear that ALL white males are evil.  And LOTS of people here share that opinion.  Fact is Kossacks will tolerate just about any stereotype as long as its applied to white males or Christians.  Christian white males are totally screwed.  It reflects badly on the community when they apply equality unequally.

                It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                by ksuwildkat on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:26:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The diarist or the commenter? (0+ / 0-)

                  The diarist points out - rightly - that some white male votes were lost to the Democrats on social issues, but focuses largely on

                  The commenter, I agree, painted with too broad a brush and should have been clear that we're talking about how to win over voters who have tended to vote Republican of late, but whose support for Republicans is soft. We're not talking about "all white men over 60 in the United States." At least we shouldn't be.

                  I have been exasperated by both sides in this dispute.
                  I wish we could get past a counterproductive argument along the lines of: "Admit the ways in which you're privileged." "Not until you admit the ways in which I'm not."

                  It seems fairly obvious that there are some areas where being a white male confers a real privilege, even as compared to someone else who has more money. For example, harassment by the cops or deranged Stand-Your-Grounders. Or the conscious or unconscious bias that still exists in too many people's minds.  

                  It seems equally evident that a white man without a penny to his name faces challenges that a well-off woman or person of color won't face. And that people who grew up believing that they'd do better than their parents because every American generation had, just to find that they're doing a lot worse, will not agree when they are labeled as "privileged" and their concerns dismissed out of hand.

                  We should be fighting ALL of these evils: poverty and substandard pay, no matter who suffers from it. AND racism, sexism, homophobia, and the vestiges of historic discrimination. We can provide opportunity for ALL our people if we'd find away to stop the concentration of wealth in the top couple of percent. But we can't do it if we're fighting each other.

                  “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                  by fenway49 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 09:08:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry, Comments (0+ / 0-)

                    Used OP too loosely

                    It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                    by ksuwildkat on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 09:16:31 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Agree all (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Calamity Jean

                    I have never understood my "peers" who reflexively vote R and yet when we discuss individual issues I have to point out to them that they are voting against their own interests.  The most insane is my one very good friend who is vocally anti-government, anti-Obama, anti-Democrat and yet is a government employee!!  Not only that he absolutely fits the "taker" description used by the right.  He is by no means rich and yet is hell bent on tax cuts for rich people.  He has 'government" health care and raves about it and yet thinks Obamacare is worse than no health care at all.  I dont get it.  Its like a Jew who is pro Hitler!

                    In some ways we (liberals) DO talk about race too much and we DO talk about discrimination too much because it is ALWAYS couched as white males as the problem.  What we need to push is equality and fairness no matter WHO is discriminating against who.  Plenty of rich vs poor is "white on white" and we aught to be able to sell that as discrimination too.  

                    I spent part of my summer in West Virginia and that state should be so blue it hurts.  Somehow we have lost the ability to relate to poor white people.  Somehow we have gotten to the point where poor white people, who represent the MAJORITY on public assistance, vote for people who are running on cutting public assistance.  Doom on them for being stupid and doom on us for not educating!  If you cant sell water to a thirst man then maybe you need a new sales pitch.

                    It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                    by ksuwildkat on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 09:32:50 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Last week I said (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ksuwildkat

                      I had only one relative who votes R. yesterday I remembered that I have two. Both are women in their late 60s.

                      The first (a) has lived in a rent-controlled apartment in New York City for 50 years; (b) was on welfare, food stamps, and Medicaid for 20 years; (c) now on Social Security and Medicare; (d) qualifies for Access-A-Ride, an NYC program where for the price of a subway fare you are driven door-to-door anywhere within the vast City of New York. So she pays under $3 for what would cost me $60 in a taxi.

                      The second was a 35-year federal employee represented by a union. Go figure.

                      “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                      by fenway49 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 10:31:18 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Honey (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calamity Jean

            I joined the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee at Greensboro North Carolina in 1962 while I was serving in the 82d Airborne Division in JFK's Army and dating a girl at the Women's College there.  I helped in the sit ins and was one of the Federal troops at U Miss when the Marshalls enrolled James Meredith. I hitch hiked to DC to watch our President,  John Lewis, speak and got to listen to Martin Luther King's 'I have a Dream' speech in person. I went door to door in Denver for LBJ, partied when he passed the Civil Rights act and the next year for the Voting Rights act. I was member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America when we protested Clinton's NAFTA. I am 71 years old and have, man and boy, been a liberal and, oh by the way, Scotch Irish (read white). I've been a left, liberal, labor Democrat for quite a while now. We lost some working class guys trying to extend the basic rights of citizenship to folks who had been denied it. They vote for Democrats because we are on their side, whoever they are. You can keep that up or decide that some of us are beneath you. Take a stand.

            "If I pay a man enough money to buy my car, he'll buy my car." Henry Ford

            by johnmorris on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:33:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  You're going to need to provide (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP

        many more years of data to demonstrate your point. I think we all know that Obama caused a lot of white people to vote Repub. Factor out the overt racism element (there's always going to be covert racism here) and what do you get?

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:30:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well relative to the South (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chas 981, mightymouse

        white men maybe DO appear to vote more Dem.  From the same data:

        AL:  84%14% for Romney
        MS: 88%-11% for Romney

        Which is interesting none the less.

        I only caught those two states.  I wanted to check a red mountain state against that but couldn't find a low Mormon %age state that had the exit polling data.

        I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

        by Satya1 on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:45:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The goal is not to win any demographic. (3+ / 0-)

        The goal is to win an election, which you do by maximizing your votes in every demographic. We don't have to get to 50% every where but getting 40% in PA, IL and MI is a problem in the long run.  If we can get to 45%, we'll be in much better shape, and that is not a fool's errand.

        "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

        by Spider Stumbled on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:01:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Why the assumption (9+ / 0-)

      that these working class white men are racist or sexist?

      http://callatimeout.blogspot.com/

      by DAISHI on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:26:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

        •  Statistically. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TrueBlueMajority, TomP, Patango

          "Because I am a river to my people."

          by lordcopper on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:26:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Gee (7+ / 0-)

          With an attitude like that maybe it isn't surprising that they aren't so receptive to the message

          •  Basically the message here is (11+ / 0-)

            that white males have no legitimate complaints, and if they don't agree with that statement then they are racist and sexist.

             I wonder if anyone hear realizes how much this line of reasoning sounds like right-wing rhetoric?

            None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

            by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:10:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm a white male (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nknight, Tonedevil

              and your whiny, petty, self-pitying comment certainly doesn't speak to any of my concerns.

              Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

              by Big River Bandido on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:08:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Please hold the personal insults and discuss the (15+ / 0-)

                ideas. Your characterization is your perception.

                I'll give you one example: a good number of white males may correctly perceive that the Democratic party is no longer a staunch supporter of the working class' interests.

                As long as Democrats are more supportive of Wall Street and big business over labor and small business, they're going to have difficulty. We've effectively abandoned our base, starting with a few of Carter's policies, accelerating under Clinton, and being basically unrecognizable today.

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:25:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Bingo! Great comment Yucatan (6+ / 0-)
                  I'll give you one example: a good number of white males may correctly perceive that the Democratic party is no longer a staunch supporter of the working class' interests.

                  As long as Democrats are more supportive of Wall Street and big business over labor and small business, they're going to have difficulty. We've effectively abandoned our base, starting with a few of Carter's policies, accelerating under Clinton, and being basically unrecognizable today.

                  Cause, talking down to people is the best way to win someone to your side I guess.

                  Health insurance is not health care.

                  by Jarrayy on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:52:56 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  How does this explain their support for the GOP, (4+ / 0-)

                  which is even more supportive of Wall Street and big business over labor and small business?

                  “The future depends entirely on what each of us does every day.” Gloria Steinem

                  by ahumbleopinion on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:57:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Must be another part of the GOP platform (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FogCityJohn, TomP, Tonedevil

                    I wonder what it could be...

                  •  We all know that the GOP mouths the claims (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dallasdoc, FogCityJohn

                    that they are defending "the little guy" from "big government overreach" and other mythical beasts.

                    Democrats could once count on the party to support working people and the poor. Once the Democratic party began carrying the water for Wall Street and multi-national corporations, without a solid backer to fall back on, falling for mere propaganda, even overt lies, became much more likely.

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:31:42 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Funny how only whites seem to fall for this (nt) (4+ / 0-)
                      •  Name another demographic which has been (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        KJG52

                        targeted for over 30 years worth of talk radio, advertising and propaganda of all types following the Reagan's killing of the Fairness Doctrine and the Equal Time Rule.

                        Or, from another angle, replace "whites" in your statement with any other group and how does it appear?

                        You've made your point clear, but your broadbrush seems to forget that there are many lifelong liberals and Democrats among "the whites."  LBJ and the vast majority of Congress which passed the Civil Rights Act were what...?

                        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                        by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:54:30 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Certainly some minorities vote Republican (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          YucatanMan, Tonedevil, ahumbleopinion

                          but in the 2012 election 88% of Romney's voters were white voters. So minority Americans aren't being bamboozled by Rush Limbaugh.

                          The question isn't why white white working class males have been targeted by Republicans, it's why have so many cast their vote for Republicans. I agree that part of the answer is the Democratic Party moving away from economic liberalism, but at some point you have to say large #s of working class whites vote Republican because they support that party's policies, and not just economic. By now every literate adult American knows what they get when they vote GOP.

                          I've forgotten nothing; 56% of Obama's voters in 2012 were white, so no one is saying the Democratic Party should abandon white support altogether. Please retire that falsehood. I am saying the Democratic Party should not become more conservative, be it in economics or social policy, to attract more white support. If you agree with that idea, we're on the same side.

                          LBJ and the vast majority of Congress which passed the Civil Rights Act were what...?
                          Democrats? If you meant to say white, what was the race of those who opposed it, in Congress and the rest of America? This may be controversial, but white Americans shouldn't boast too loudly about the passing the Civil Rights Act, when they created/acquiesced to racism in the first place.
                          •  I completely agree that the Democratic party (4+ / 0-)

                            should not become more conservative.

                            Clinton's 'triangulation,' which George Stephanopolis liked to brag about so much, was a sellout of long-standing Democratic party principles.

                            What worries me is this point:

                            By now every literate adult American knows what they get when they vote GOP.
                            At least in my perception, there are far too many "low information voters" who are simply not paying very much attention at all. But they do vote. And their votes are based on a few words from a TV ad or something their brother-in-law says over a beer or whatever.

                            That's the biggest problem, I believe. I don't think most people connect their votes with their worsening situation. I have family members like that.

                            They voted Republican back when that elected people like deal-maker Bob Dole or Gerald Ford and other "moderates" who actually were pretty much middle of the road and weren't supply-side idiots.  They continue to vote Republican (Because they always have) and do not realize -- do not educate themselves enough -- to know that those Republicans of today are far different animals.

                            They simply hear the attacks on Democrats and think those are far worse....

                            It is a sad situation.

                            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                            by YucatanMan on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 10:04:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  The GOP messaging subtext is personal freedom (7+ / 0-)

                    personal power, and control over your surroundings.

                    Admittedly, it's lies and illusions, but the Republicans have the best marketing critters on the planet.

                    Those subtexts appeal on a massive level to guys who don't pay a lot of attention to politics and whose intelligence doesn't usually run to deep analysis.

                    Abortion = control over your wife and daughters.

                    Guns = Control over your personal safety.

                    Prisons and No Immigration Reform = Control over your neighborhood, and the ability to drive away people you don't approve of.

                    Big Gummint = All government is on a city or town level, so that you actually know the people who run the government, you can talk to them and maybe actually influence them.

                    No Job-Killing Regulations = You can do whatever the hell you want to do without having to schlep down to City Hall or some government agency and stand in line for hours to get a permit to do it.

                    And, of course, the ultimate snake-oil

                    No Taxes =  "You know how to spend your money best." Something for nothing.

                    About that hope-y, change-y thing. It was going great until the Republicans fucked it up.

                    by Permanent Republican Minority on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 09:29:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  This one's not hard at all (0+ / 0-)

                    Look north - Rob Ford has mastered this. In fact, he's mastered it so well, that he's pretty got men from a lot of racial groups lined up, despite pursuing policies that have nothing to do with their interests.

                    Rob Ford will talk to constituents, he'll emote with them, he'll return their calls, and he will attempt to relate to them using their language.

                    Men like to relate to candidates - it is important to them that their gut tells them that this is a good guy.

                    Republican candidates tend to excel at this; and we better hope they never line up candidates with Rob Ford's gifts (and without his flaws.) Because such a candidate would do well with more than just white guys.

                    Rick Perry - the greatest scientist since Galileo!

                    by Bobs Telecaster on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:33:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Ask Ronald Reagan (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ahumbleopinion

                    He's the one who pulled it off. Ask Thomas Frank, or read his book about it. Working class people identifying and voting Republican is the single biggest political problem of the last 40 years. We have not recovered from Reagan/Vietnam syndrome.

                    In my view race has played a role (statistics showing mostly in the South, which went from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican over a couple of decades) in that shift, but there's no question the Democratic shift toward Wall Street has made it less threatening to some high-income professionals - and easier to characterize as the party of the snooty elite and the "moochers," but not the folks caught in between.

                    I worked in a large New York law firm where partners take home in the millions. The vast majority of attorneys were Democrats, their secretaries commuting in from Long Island voting Republican. Here in Massachusetts there are many high-end suburbs that are overwhelmingly liberal, while blue-collar towns trend far more to the right.

                    “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

                    by fenway49 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:16:03 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I would also add (5+ / 0-)

                  to Yucatanman's comment , the segment of the population that already votes for the GOP is not really reachable , but there has to be a % of them out there that dems might motivate to start voting , a big bold progressive fighter just might help , along with the dem party solidifying those principles , as Yukatanman points out

                  Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

                  by Patango on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:07:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, many have moved from voting D to not voting (4+ / 0-)

                    as the ranks of disaffected have increased.

                    Sure there are racists who vote for racist dogwhistles. No one denies that takes place.

                    But elections are won on the margins. Swing 1, 2, or 3% and elections go the other way. Democrats have poor turn out. There's the first place to start.

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:34:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Maybe they can't be reached (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    YucatanMan, KJG52

                    but maybe they can.
                       One thing is for certain - they never will be reached if we don't listen.

                    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

                    by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:41:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I don't disagree with you in the least (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TomP, Tonedevil

                  But white males are simply not going to be the main support of the Democratic Party in the future.  Some white males have a problem with that.  I don't, and neither should anyone who cares about those issues.  

                  As for "personal insult", you will notice that my criticism was directed at the comment, not the poster.  That does NOT constitute a "personal insult" in the slightest, and is absolutely within fair bounds of argument.

                  Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

                  by Big River Bandido on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 05:04:33 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  White males *could* be more a part of the (5+ / 0-)

                    Democratic party if we keep trying to get them back into the party. That means supporting the economic interests of the working class and solidly backing long-term Democratic party programs like SS and MC.

                    The party getting more conservative (or "bipartisan" or "moderate" or "pragmatic") does not entice anyone.

                    As Harry Truman said, given a choice between a Democrat portraying himself as a Republican and a real Republican, the Republican wins every time.  (paraphrased, but close)  My take from that is "don't fake who you are - stand for something and that something should be working people."

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 10:09:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The party should do that regardless (0+ / 0-)

                      If the Democratic Party were truly a party for the working class, how many votes it got from white males would be basically irrelevant.  Their votes would be gravy rather than the meat.  Indeed, it's pretty much already that way...Obama's coalition includes white males, but not the majority of them, and he doesn't need a majority of them.  His overall electoral majority comes from, well, pretty much everybody else.  I don't see a problem with that.  

                      My point with all of this is simple:  if Democrats can win working people minus white males and still win, that's what they ought to do.  If attracting the votes of white males means somehow adopting more conservative positions, this white male will have nothing to do with that party.

                      Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

                      by Big River Bandido on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:36:32 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  What a coincidence (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan, KJG52
                your whiny, petty, self-pitying comment
                Your insulting, condescending, dismissive reply sounds exactly like the typical right-wing reply to complaints about inequality.
                   Congrats!

                None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

                by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:32:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Bingo (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ozsea1, KJG52

          In four words you summed up one reason this lifelong democrat from a family of democrats became an Independent, along with many others.

          The party left me long before I left it though.

      •  Because they tend to be (5+ / 0-)

        It's about more than racism and sexism, of course, more broadly about cultural identity that's associated with being a straight white "regular guy" man who isn't some effete urban elitist who eats brie and cycles in spandex.

        I'm stereotyping, of course, and there are variations, but I ran across a lot of these types when I worked on Wall St. They hated Dems, who they felt were for lazy inner city types, saw Repubs as more genuine and trustworthy and in line with their values. The whole Reagan bullshit deal.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:39:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  They may not be primarily racist and/or sexist, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chrisculpepper

        but they resent having to compete with women or people of color for jobs, education, wealth, and power to which they previously had priority access. So they become secondarily racist and/or sexist because they see their formerly privileged position eroded and blame Democrats who are seen as the champion of their competition.

        “The future depends entirely on what each of us does every day.” Gloria Steinem

        by ahumbleopinion on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:56:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um . . . (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Berkeley Fred, TomP, wishingwell, Chas 981

          If you

          resent having to compete with women or people of color for jobs, education, wealth, and power to which [you] previously had priority access
          and you
          blame Democrats who are seen as the champion of [your] competition
          where the competition is
          women or people of color
          then I hate to break the news to you, but you're a sexist and a racist.  

          And there's nothing "secondary" about it.

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:47:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is secondary in the sense that as long as (0+ / 0-)

            a subset of white men maintained their privileged position in society, they did not express overtly racist or sexist views and probably never thought of themselves as racist or sexist.  They just accepted as "normal" a culture that was to their advantage.

            “The future depends entirely on what each of us does every day.” Gloria Steinem

            by ahumbleopinion on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 09:44:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  In other words ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP

              they accepted as normal a racist and sexist society because that was to their advantage. Whether they thought of themselves as racists or sexists is largely irrelevant. Most of us don't think bad things about ourselves, even when they're true.

              "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

              by FogCityJohn on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 11:08:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Because who needs facts (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CA148 NEWS

        so much better to just assume white make = racist
        Irony is over in the corner having a heart attack

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:45:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  We don't win by being racist, homophobic, or (16+ / 0-)

      sexist, certainly.

      But the DLC inspired policies that Clinton brought to the White House -- essentially, to be competitive by going after business funders, and not after working people -- is certainly a loser now, if it was ever really a winner outside of a 10 mile radius of Wall Street.

      Thomas Frank was and is right on this -- a lot of lower income whites don't see much practical difference between the two parties on economic issues that directly affect them.

      The tendency has been to appeal to the worse side of these voters, and on that, I agree, there's no point of that -- it only makes it harder to turn out the young, and people of color.  But good economic policy for lower income white males is often good economic policy for lower income male people of color.  Concentrating on that is not a fool's errand.  It's a way to use class to our advantage.  As we should.

      Once upon a time, white people had it in for The Man as well.  For good reasons.  And those reasons?  Still good.

      Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

      by mbayrob on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:46:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank God for the populist movement. When (4+ / 0-)

        I read anti-white comments on this site, I realize how far we've fallen. There was a time when skin color was not an issue, when we accepted each other as equals no matter what our ethnicity, income level, looks, gender...but now, the Democratic Party is divided by agendas...not by a sense of humanity.

        When I joined the Democratic Party it consisted mainly of white voters...but members of my generation (the 60s) were the ones who insisted on reaching out to racial minorities...now, fifty years later, we're being divided along racial lines and nothing could be more myopic.

        And it lends support to Adolph Reed Kelly's claim that liberals no longer are a viable entity.

        One of the most depressing issues for white people my age is the division within the Democratic Party over the Chained CPI...many people on this site supported it because it was proposed by Obama, not because it was the best policy for elderly people.

        If people like TomP insist on driving white people out of the Democratic Party, then it serves as a harbinger of harder times to come for middle class Americans and for needy people.

        And if that type of rhetoric was reversed -- white people saying don't waste our time on trying to appeal to African American voters -- this place would go ape shit.

        I never thought I would say this, but maybe it's time for the party to split...what we're doing now, isn't working.

        •  I think you are being way too hard on TomP (0+ / 0-)

          I have never known him to be divisive at all or advocate for driving white people out of the party. He is one of the kindest, most thoughtful, most inclusive people here.

          Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

          by wishingwell on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:31:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  What do you mean what the party is doing is (0+ / 0-)

          not working? We have our faults and we need to do more and work to strengthen the party but we have won some key elections.  The Obama campaign was one of the most well run, inclusive, grass roots oriented, meticulous, far reaching campaigns I have ever witnessed. And I have been volunteering for Democrats for 40 years now.
          That campaign was one well oiled machine.
          Democrats have won some very key elections so to say what we are doing is not working is painting with a broad brush. We have had our victories and our defeats.

          Yes we need to keep expanding the Democratic party, reaching out, registering new voters, getting sporadic voters to vote more regularly and so much more.  We can never afford to be complacent. But the Democratic party is not falling apart and we are not a lost cause.

          Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

          by wishingwell on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:34:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Giving up on white men is even more foolish. (17+ / 0-)

      The Democrats ARE the party of the Middle Class and all men (and women) need to know it.

      Not all white men are racist, sexist and homophobic. I am often astonished at the language used toward white men on this site -- as if they were a vile segment of the populous to be sneered at and disregarded.  The racism directed at white men is sometimes virulent here.

      One way Democrats COULD make some inroads into this vote is by respecting white men as people and then addressing issues of concern to them.

      If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

      by Bensdad on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:49:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I also think it shows a huge misunderstanding (7+ / 0-)

        of the total vote.  Losing the majority of white men is far, far different from losing all of them particularly if their families decide to go with them.  

      •  By stereotyping white men (7+ / 0-)

        you don't have to consider that they might have real concerns. And if they don't have real concerns then you don't have to listen to anything they might say.

         Problem solved!

        None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

        by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:14:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What unique concerns do white males have? (8+ / 0-)

          That white females or black males, for example, do not? Please elucidate.

          •  Perhaps those have shared concerns and the other (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jarrayy, gjohnsit

            groups base their affiliations on issues which are not shared?

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:27:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You haven't answered my question (8+ / 0-)

              What specific issues are predominately a white male concern?

              •  Actually YucatanMan answered the question (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan

                and answered it very well.

                None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

                by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:43:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's a completely nonsensical argument (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TomP, wishingwell, Tonedevil, redwagon

                  Here's what he said:

                  I'll give you one example: a good number of white males may correctly perceive that the Democratic party is no longer a staunch supporter of the working class' interests.
                  Assuming this is true, why are they then voting for a party that has never in its history been for the laboring class, EVER?

                  Now if they don't vote, that's a rational response (albeit still tacitly supporting the GOP), but for white working class voters to vote for the GOP because the Democratic Party is not supporting working class issues more, the reason could only be:

                  - They're sufficiently stupid or masochistic to vote for the party guaranteed to do them worse than the Democrats. Or:
                  - They don't actually care about working class issues as much as they say, and support the GOP (or vote against Democrats) for other reasons

                  Now if they don't care about economics, it's pretty clear what other policy stands the GOP has that could garner white voter support.

                  So what is it? Are white working class voters who vote Republican stupid, or racists? Because there's really no other logical possibility.

                  •  Excellent comment. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wishingwell, Tonedevil

                    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

                    by TomP on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 05:22:49 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I always thought the argument was flawed. (4+ / 0-)

                    "I vote for anti-worker Republicans" because the Democrats are not pro-worker enough.  It's a false construct.  Race is a big reason they vote Republican.  Lefties like to project their politics on white working class folks, but it often is bs.

                    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

                    by TomP on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 05:27:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Do Not Forget Women's Rights (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Berkeley Fred

                      Divorced women support Democrats. I have not seen the numbers for divorced men. I can guess for MRAs. Abortion and autonomy are big issues for conservative white men, they know the first supports the second. They therefore hate the first. Also, you know, sluts make them angry. Sluts being anyone having sexy times not with them.

                      So racism, sexism, and weird sexual frustrations all play a part.

            •  I always hear from my fellow (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan

              educated white men who say "I don't need to have rights or concerns" and of course that is easy to say when you have money and a good job. They have no idea about and fear the working class. I think that is what they mean when they say white males have no concerns. Better to ignore the scary lower class people.

              Health insurance is not health care.

              by Jarrayy on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:57:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Berkely Fred. Do you mind explaining why (0+ / 0-)

            you HRd my comment..

            •  I un-HRed it, but... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP, Tonedevil, redwagon

              I was offended that you think we're being 'antiwhite' by pointing out that white males are disproportionately supporters of the Republican Party, and pointing out why it has little to do with economics.

              Your post reeks of racial paternalism, or to be more charitable, naivete ("here was a time when skin color was not an issue, when we accepted each other as equals no matter what our ethnicity, income level, looks, gender." - Really?)

              •  Actually, you just stereotyped me... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                chrisculpepper, gjohnsit, KJG52

                I happen to know the mood of Democrats at that time because I was one of the people who fought for equal rights. I was disowned by my family for standing up for African Americans.

                You spew hate without even taking a moment to know the person you're condemning.

                I am deeply depressed because this is what the Democratic Party has become under Obama...we are more deeply divided along ethnic lines than we were when I was young.

                And yes, there was a lot of love and comraderie among Democrats at the time...it is not anything like the Party you see now. Now, there is so little difference between us and the republicans it is scary.

                I have absorbed a lot of nasty comments from Obama supporters, but the worst thing that was ever said to me came from an African American who called me a racist because I didn't support Obama. I told him I marched for civil rights, was spit on, and disowned by my family, and he said: what do you want, a fucking medal?

                That is not the way you win back white voters. That is nasty and vicious, and it is a good example of how you run them off, and then turn them into enemies. You can't go on attacking people because of their color...that makes you no different from the southern bigots...you either accept people for who they are, no mattter what their color...and that includes white....or you have to ask yourself, are you being the racist? You can't have a double standard. If you try that, then the democratic party will cease to exist as anything more than a corporate entity, because once you have ran off all the compassionate people, you will be left with nothing but cold, calculating people.

                And I know that I am one of the most compassionate people you will ever meet...I just don't tow the party line, and I don't support stupid ideas.

                •  Haha, well White Master meesa know better now! (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tony Situ, TomP, TFinSF

                  For someone who claims to be a civil rights pioneer, I am astounded by your argument that it's the Democratic Party's fault, and Obama especially, that we're 'deeply divided' ethnically. No, the division is in America at large, and the fact that white Americans are disproportionately voting for Republicans - a trend that trumps gender, age, martial status, income, even religion.

                  Not to offend your colorblind sensibilities, but we minorities are entirely justified in voting disproportionately for the Democratic Party, because the Republican Party is overtly advocating racist policies. We are just as diverse in our opinions as whites, but we have a common enemy that makes 70+% Hispanics and Asian-Americans, and 90+% of African-Americans, vote blue. Hint: it's not Obama.

                  What's white America's reason for voting 60-40 for Romney?

                  Now, there is so little difference between us and the republicans it is scary.

                  The only thing scary is that you can't see the difference, or understand where it's coming from.

                  •  You must have read my diary a week ago (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    praenomen

                    about how to spot a troll?
                       Because you are using rule #1 and #9.

                       

                    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

                    by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:52:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Fred, not gender & martial status (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Berkeley Fred

                    Single and divorced women vote D. White single and divorced women are outnumbered by married women. Give the single ladies their due.

                    In some cases religious affiliation is the greatest predictor of voting patterns for a white person. Evangelicals vote R. Jewish people vote D. The others vary.

                    •  Noted (0+ / 0-)

                      Looking into women demographics deeper, single women are massively D, married women R. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect that there are significant correlations between being single and being minority as well.

                      As for religion, plenty of minority Americans are religious, maybe even more than whites as a whole. From personal experience, many minorities who do support Republicans tend to be religious or well to do.

              •  that was a fair call (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Berkeley Fred

                "here was a time when skin color was not an issue, when we accepted each other as equals no matter what our ethnicity, income level, looks, gender."

                is clearly transcribed from the original trollish.

          •  White males have very unique concerns (0+ / 0-)

            Good jobs
            Education
            Health care
            rational foreign policy
            fair tax system

            oh wait, those are the same concerns everyone else has.  Is it possible that PEOPLE have similar concerns?  Could it be that race and sex have nothing to do with what people are concerned with?  Its almost as if there were a hierarchy of stuff…..maybe needs….that everyone shares and they all strive to fulfill them.

            It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

            by ksuwildkat on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:51:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  On all those issues D's are better than R's (0+ / 0-)

              Even the watered-down corporate-friendly DLC version of the Democrats we have today. So why do white males vote Republican +30% nationwide, and about 50-50 outside the South? Why do whites as a whole vote Republican more than Democratic, a trend that holds true despite gender or age?

              Whites in the South vote 80% Republican. I hope you're not naive enough to believe that race isn't a factor. And for white working class voters who vote Republican... it's clear what's more important on their hierarchy of needs, and economics ain't it.

              •  Look in the mirror (0+ / 0-)

                Maybe white makes get tired of people like you BLAMING them for every problem.  Maybe they vote R because they dont get called racist before they even open their mouths.  Maybe they get tired of being called a sexist pig when they havent done a darn thing.  

                Funny if you lump all (insert race/gender/religion/sexual orientation) into a stereotype you are a racist/sexist/bigot....unless you are talking white males, then its ok.

                Keep pretending you are not a racist/sexist if that makes you sleep at night.  The rest of us know the truth.

                It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                by ksuwildkat on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:22:29 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  This white man agrees. n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Tonedevil

      "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

      by Apost8 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:42:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Mercifully, folks in those categories are old (0+ / 0-)

      and won't be with us much longer.

      Outside of the South, Appalachia and parts of the Great Plains, white males break something like 60-40% Republican/Democratic and are mostly in the exurbs and suburbs.

      Themes that really seem to resonate with middle class and working class white guys are personal freedom and local control.

      Scratch a lot of Tea Party types (at least those who aren't outright bigots or Corporatist libertarian ideologues) and they're basically scared at how much things have changed and how big things have gotten. Potentially, there's a lot to work with there.

      Democrats could possibly make inroads with these folks by pushing initiatives that aid "really small business" - like independent contractors or businesses that just employ a couple of people.

      Initiatives to devolve more day to day control to local government (i.e., at the county or city level) would also play well - as long as those moves can't hijacked to gut regulations or disenfranchise minorities.

      Finally, any good government initiatives to get rid of lobbyists and institutionalized corruption might also appeal, as long as they can be phrased simply.

      About that hope-y, change-y thing. It was going great until the Republicans fucked it up.

      by Permanent Republican Minority on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:48:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is a bad reading of the stats. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Tonedevil

      What should be looked at is how to peel off about 10% of white males.  Very likely there is 10% that can be peeled off on economic issues.

      Minimum wage as the diary says could get some.

      Having a platform of increasing social security and lowering the retirement age instead of being Republican lite on Social Security.

      Being for directly creating jobs and ignoring the deficit instead of every single economic proposal paying at least lip service to austerity.

      Repudiating failed neoliberal economics would help.

      Prosecuting and jailing the executives that committed the accounting control frauds that crashed the economy.

    •  Wow just wow (0+ / 0-)

      Stereotype much?

      Guess what calling all white males racist/homophobic/sexist is - racists and sexist. Pot, let me introduce you to kettle.

      It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

      by ksuwildkat on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:39:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  These men, the racists, homophobic and (0+ / 0-)

      sexist men, feel themselves to be victims.  The more rights and control over their own lives the minorities, homosexuals and women gain, the more these men consider they've lost and the more victimized they feel.  So they cling to their outrage and their guns, and maybe their bibles, and therefore are unable to move from the status quo of their victimization and within a changing society.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 07:41:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am a white working guy (52+ / 0-)

    who owns a business and I vote Democrat all the time. It would be nice if they did more than throw me a bone once in awhile. Doing things like supporting Social Security 100% along with Medicare /Medicaid 100% and stop kissing the ass of Third Way and Fix the Debt type groups. I want to see single payer, a higher minimum wage and if you really want to make me proud ,Stand up to the Right-Wing each and every time it opens its mouth.

    Dogs and Philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards (Diogenes)

    by Out There on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:24:47 PM PST

    •  Right (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark, wader, wintergreen8694

      But you're really a white working guy who owns his own business.  Being "real" is a point against you already, don't you know reality has a liberal bias?  And I'll bet you think of yourself as an individual.  And you probably think that because you work 80 hours a week, you work harder than a CEO who works 50 hours a week, because you just don't realize how hard it is for them to sit in meetings, talk to their local Mercedes dealer about the options on their S63 AMG, and play business golf.  And those long hours in their private club for those intense business dinners!  All for a piddling salary of $5 million a year.  Have you no pity for these exploited, downtrodden victims, the oppressed 0.1% "makers"?

      And Third Way and Fix the Debt tell me that what you really want is "entitlements reform" and "free market solutions."  I read it in the NYT and Washington Post so it must be true.

      And, one other thing.  Only people like Mitt Romney are true businessmen, even if his hairline is receding and making him look like Dracula.  And like Dracula, he sucks...

    •  Totally Agreed. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, Tonedevil, YucatanMan, Dallasdoc

      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

      by tikkun on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:36:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think too many Democrats focus on the (7+ / 0-)

      white votes they've lost without fully understanding how many more they have to lose.  

      When I keep reading how Democrats don't need older white voters because they've got all these Hispanics waiting in the wings, I say to myself, it takes a heck of a lot of arrogance to push away a registered voter you have today on the hope that you're going to be able to register a new voter tomorrow.

      What have you done for me lately, Democrats?  And I don't mean talking about CCPI and means testing Medicare.

      •  Where have you read this (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, Berkeley Fred
        When I keep reading how Democrats don't need older white voters because they've got all these Hispanics waiting in the wings,
        I've read many articles discussing the growing Hispanic demographic, but I have never one that speaks of discarding white votes.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:36:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This ^^^^ (6+ / 0-)

      Yep, for some reason, our "moderates" are pro-owner, and not pro-worker.

      I don't care if you're pro-gun as long as you aren't anti-union.  And yes, I'm looking at you, Senator Pryor.

      Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

      by mbayrob on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:51:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  i hope you vote Democratic (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbsoul, gramofsam1

      there is no "Democrat" Party

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:38:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The very first step is to give progressive working (43+ / 0-)

    class men a forum to discuss what we need from the Democratic Party, instead of inviting affluent white men to speak about us.

    People who don't know where our interest lay or what challenges we face aren't capable of being our agents, and plainly aren't able to win our votes.

    It's not the stack of bigots voting for Republicans anyone needs to be concerned about reaching out to.

    It's the 35-40% of us who usually don't vote.

    Welcome to the Whole Foods of the blogosphere.

    by JesseCW on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:27:52 PM PST

  •  I agree with the guy above ^^^ (26+ / 0-)

    Stand up to the right wing. Stop being push overs. When they're liars (nearly all of the time), point it out and don't be shy about it. Remind them that union struggles built this country, that people fought and DIED for it. Remind them that it was democrats that brought them rural electrification and stood up for the little guy. Remind them, remind them, remind them, that it was hard working white guys.

    Remind them that it is white guys, standing up with minorities that can break the backs of the John Birch Society. Hell, most of the youth don't even know who they are and their connection to the Koch brothers. They have to be taught and reminded of the noble cause.

  •  You've got to reach down (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Penny GC, tikkun

    and find the authentic thing beneath the mask.  I don't know if the democrats have someone with the soul to do that.

    "So listen, oh, Don't wait." Vampire Weekend.

    by Publius2008 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:37:15 PM PST

  •  Directly matches up to the decline of unions (12+ / 0-)

    Working class whites are just as put upon as every other demographic (and early on in life, it made me sick to hear the politically correct crowd claim I, as a white man,had it easier than anyone  after being homeless at 16). The problem is these folks no longer have the protections they see other groups "have" and Republicans are great at exploiting this misplaced envy. And I do not see much changing as unions further erode, and they feel further alienated (I do not really consider myself working class, hence the they), which is basically them cutting off their nose (by helping destroy unions) to spite their face.

    •  It's not a matter of political correctness to (12+ / 0-)

      recognize and acknowledge white privilege.  Pointing out that you were white and homeless at 16 doesn't prove that white privilege doesn't exist.

      Your bio comment was an odd juxtaposition to your observation that the GOP has played on misplaced envy (in others "They're coming to take your white privilege away").

      That's what it boils down to.  Somehow Democrats have to do a better job of communicating that our policies have a better upside than the noise that the GOP bogeymen promotes to them.

      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

      by cks175 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:54:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  White men... working class white men... (13+ / 0-)

        ...don't feel very privileged since they lost their chances at good union wage jobs, and the only political group that shows any real deference to their plight are the GOP (who use wedge issues to inflame them instead of actually dealing with the problems they are dealing with).

        Opportinity loss is a problem for everyone.

        Ukraine is a very big deal. They need our support.

        by LordMike on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:58:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Talking about white privilege is just a swell idea (8+ / 0-)

        if you don't need white voters.  If you do need white voters, you might talk to them about what they want.

        •  And it's especially toxic when it's phrased (9+ / 0-)

          in such a way as to imply that since white men dominate the 1%, all white men somehow benefit. Trickle-down economics doesn't work for any group.

          At the same time, we have to recognize the reality that when white men suffer, it's not because they're white or because they're male, and any outreach efforts that imply either are zero-sum pandering.

          Unfortunately when smart and educated people get crazy ideas they can come up with plausibly truthy arguments. -- Andrew F Cockburn

          by ebohlman on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:30:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Elizabeth Warren has the message...The question (6+ / 0-)

            needs to be asked, "How's that Trickle-Down Economics been working for you?"  and the case made for its failure.  Trickle-down Economics was and is a lie...it has been 30+ years of Gushing-Up Economics.  Getting more working class Americans of all backgrounds to understand that truth will help negate the ReTHUGlican strategy of targeting the white-male vote.

            Robber Baron "ReTHUGisms": John D. Rockefeller -"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets"; Jay Gould -"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."

            by ranton on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:38:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  your comment misses the point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, YucatanMan, chrisculpepper

        There is no white privlege when you are underprivleged. My bio info was more to show this fact.  As I got older, I kinda blazed my own path, but my point is that you do not feel priveledge when no one is fighting for you. And yes, Republicans faux stances tend to resonate to non thinkers in absence f anyone addressing it.

        •  this is not true (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChiTownBlue2000, cks175
          There is no white privlege when you are underprivleged
          although a lot of people, including you, apparently think so

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:39:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is true (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dog Chains, YucatanMan, Jarrayy

            It's true by common sense, logic, and definition.

            None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

            by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:59:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  as I said in another post, dumpster food (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan

            Does not taste any better to a white man.  I get what you mean, statistically, but in life, we tend to think of more about ourselves than stats.

          •  this is not really the time for this argument (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kathy Scheidel

            The way to build a coalition that appeals to working & middle class whites is not go tell people who are in a bad position that they are privileged.

            I don't understand why you don't just make your point and leave it be.

            An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

            by mightymouse on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:18:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  some folk think it is never time for this argument (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kathy Scheidel

              but you cannot deny that for generations that demographic was politically controlled by that axiom:

              no matter how downtrodden they were, no matter how bad they had it or how hard their lives were, they were still superior to black folk, brown folk, red folk, yellow folk, and of course all women.

              +they+ are the ones who cling to that belief the strongest!

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:31:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Many (most?) white working class people (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kathy Scheidel

                are on the downhill slide, economically.

                To build a robust electoral coalition, you don't need to tell them how they are privileged. Basically that line only reinforces the RW narrative that they are doing badly because the govt is taking their money and handing it out to undeserving people of color.

                The person you were exchanging with above was homeless for a while.

                there are places where discussion of white privilege would be a lot more appropriate. to me this diary was about why white people vote the way they do, and what to do to improve that.

                An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                by mightymouse on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 10:13:59 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  one reason white working class men vote R (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mightymouse, Kathy Scheidel

                  is that they do not see themselves as they really are.  they imagine themselves to be better and deserve better and do not accept solidarity with working class people of other colors and genders.  there's nothing the Democratic Party can do about folk with that attitude.

                  i am sorry that the other poster was homeless for a while.  we could get into whether homeless whites have an easier time in life than homeless blacks, i agree that would be a pointless line of argument today.  but skin privilege is real, though.  denying it does not make it any less real.

                  you are right, there is no point getting into it because it is like bashing your head against a wall to get people to think it through

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                  DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
                  Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 11:55:16 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  and (0+ / 0-)

              not one of them would change places with a black man.  or woman.  not one.  they acknowledge their privilege better apparently than some here are willing to do.

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:32:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You do (0+ / 0-)

          have more spaces in the shelters than women.

          Are less likely to be raped on the street than a woman.

          Are less likely to be harassed, beaten, or arrested by the cops.

          Less likely to be removed from a store if you wander in.

          Are more likely to escape homelessness.

          If you fall in love, you can marry your OS lover in all fifty states.  Or even if you just want to get married for some liquor-stupid reason. Whatever.

          Sorry you are down and out. Just because you are playing the game on the easy setting does not mean that 100 gnolls will not spawn when you have one hit point.  It does not mean that you have had an easy time. But you have privileges.  Fighting against that acknowledgement will not help you.

    •  This strikes to the core of the issue. Way too (14+ / 0-)

      many affluent white guys are finally waking up to their massive racial privilege , and then using that recognition as a blindfold that allows them to ignore their staggering class privilege.

      It extremely alienating to poor and working class whites of any gender who grew up experiencing homelessness, on food stamps, enjoying the tender mercies of the foster care system ect. when pampered wealthy white dudes start talking about "our privileges".

      Welcome to the Whole Foods of the blogosphere.

      by JesseCW on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:02:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  no, you're not as put upon (9+ / 0-)

      Poor whites are still, statistically, far, far, far, FAR better in this country than being poor blacks.

      Cops are far less likely to shoot you dead when you reach into your pocket for your comb. That happens to young black men far more often than it happens to young white men.

      Saying that poor whites are worse off than middle/upper-class non-whites is comparing apples and oranges. Michael Jordan has a more comfortable life than you--no shit! He's got a more comfortable life than 99.99% of the people in America, white, black, or green with purple polka dots.

      If you could walk a day in their shoes, you would understand.

      The problem is these folks no longer have the protections they see other groups "have"
      What protections specifically? Be clear here. What do you consider these "protections" that non-whites have, that you don't?

      White privilege exists--and only white men have the luxury of denying its existence. The rest of the country understands its existence very, very well.

      "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

      by limpidglass on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:36:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  so class privilege isn't an important issue? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dog Chains, gjohnsit, sharman
        Saying that poor whites are worse off than middle/upper-class non-whites is comparing apples and oranges.
        Because you seem to be saying that.
      •  Actually, white women also have that luxury. n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stude Dude, gramofsam1

        "Think of something to make the ridiculous look ridiculous." -- Molly Ivins

        by dumpster on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:53:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  This might be offensive, but your comment (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        schumann, ranton, peregrinus

        Sums up why we lose the working class and poor white more. Trying to claim any homeless person in this country is better off is absurd and it shocks me anyone could try to make that point. As many others said more eloquently, class in this day is a bigger inhibator than race, it just so happens that a higher percentage of minorities lack the connections white men have. But to people without them, regardless, perception doesn't change. Trust me dumpster food tastes no better.

        •  Well, I think that it's true that (5+ / 0-)

          dollar for dollar a white person is better off than a black one, but it seems to me that when you focus on class and economics rather than race, the rising tide can lift all the boats.

          That being said, this shouldn't be used as an excuse to ignore the many issues that do disproportionately affect minority communities, which I think has happened in the past. Under Clinton, everyone was getting a fatter paycheck, yes. But not if you were one of the young blacks or latinos who were being incarcerated at a staggering rate as the prison system became privatized. That's an example where focusing solely on economics left many minorities constituencies out in the cold.

        •  well said (0+ / 0-)

          Whites in the aggregate do have it better.

          However, many whites are in less-than-comfortable circumstances, and telling them they are "privileged" is thoughtless and foolish (if the goal is to win elections).

          also it plays right along with the RW narrative that the government is taking your tax money and giving it to undeserving people of color and THAT's why thing suck for you.

          tone deaf.

          and divisive.

          An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

          by mightymouse on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:22:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Better than blacks, but worse than their parents (7+ / 0-)

        It's time we started talking about class, rather than encourage white working class people that black and Mexican people are "stealing" their jobs and public money.

        The jobs are being stolen all right, and public money is hemorrhaging,  but it's not the folks at the bottom doing the stealing.

        Democrats need to say, out loud and proud, that the rich have eating al of the country's bounty for 30 years, and it's damn well time it stopped doing it.

        It will take time for 30 years of Fox News type propaganda to wear off.  But ultimately, real policy that helps working people -- all working people -- will work to change opinions.

        I'm not going to argue that it will happen over night.  But the kind of outreach and policies that help white males help males of color too.  And women of all hues as well.

        Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

        by mbayrob on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:57:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chrisculpepper, rhauenstein

          And unfortunately 30-20 years late in still trying to figure it out.

          I mean it's my frustration as a white guy with no opportunities or future back in the '80s. The when the '90s rolled around and you had people from Douglas Coupland to Ross Perot talking about the first American generation to do worse than both their parents and grandparents and a whole lot of nothing came of it.

          "If this Studebaker had anymore Atomic Space-Age Style, you'd have to be an astronaut with a geiger counter!"

          by Stude Dude on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:59:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Do you really think that matters to the people (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stude Dude, gjohnsit

        living through it? Do you think the white guy living on the street takes solace in the fact that black guys do to?

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

        by Greyhound on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:54:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  i am allegedly white guy (6+ / 0-)

    i really think we would all be better off forgetting what club we are supposed to belong to.

    i voted for barack obama three times, although not sure i could do it again. basically i am anti-war. i would have gone to canada to avoid being put in to the situation of killing another human being i had no quarrel with.

    the problem the democratic party has with me is they do not represent enough difference with the republican party.

    bush extorted about 3000 dollars a year in tax money from me that directly supported the military of the united states of america to ride over the the rest of the world.

    obama extorts about 3000 dollars a year...

    neither party really holds the lives of non-americans sacred.

    drones are a cost effective way of generating enough new terrorists that calls to cut military spending will fail.

    by just want to comment on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:46:41 PM PST

  •  I'm a proud Democrat (17+ / 0-)

    and a native Southern white male. Appealing to Southern voters isn't hard - just call out Republicans for the liars and thieves that are are and quit trying to be Republican-lite.

    Democrats have plenty to appeal to all voters - they just need to cut through the bullshit spread by the GOP and Fox news.

    Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

    by bear83 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:47:28 PM PST

    •  You, sir, are a rarity (6+ / 0-)

      As am I.  Maybe it's good family upbringing, right?

      Anyway, I have to disagree.  After a half century of the word "liberal" being more offensive than the F-word south of the Mason-Dixon line, it's more than just an uphill battle to reach the Southern white male demographic (at least in states other than Florida).  It's like trying to scale Mt. Everest in your underwear.

      •  I'll credit family, too (5+ / 0-)

        since my family is Democratic across the board (other than a certain in-law).

        Racists have found a home in the Republican party, and they are apparently welcome there. Nixon's 'Southern Strategy' continues to pay dividends for them across the south. Making 'liberal' a slander is all part of that.

        But when Democrats focus on solutions like Gov Beshear in Kentucky has with health care, or on populist messages like raising the minimum wage, improving education, and infrastructure improvements that bring jobs, that's a message we can sell.

        Republicans have made hay by dividing us on guns, god, and gays - all distractions while they looted state treasuries and deregulated in favor of big business. In reality, they have nothing to offer working class voters but fear - and that's an opportunity for Democrats who will stand up to them and offer real solutions.

         

        Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

        by bear83 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:53:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  progressive populism is the ticket across the (12+ / 0-)

    board...the right wingers are on the demographic cliff RIGHT NOW - push the motherfuckers over!

    the answer is so simple, i assume the democratic party won't do it

  •  Except... (12+ / 0-)

    ...as you peel off different groups, those white working class men become increasingly Democratic.

    a. If "working class white men" (I'm assuming there is a consistent definition of this somewhere) went 60-40 Republican, and southern working class white men went 80-20 Republican and are 25% of the total, in the rest of the country, you're at about 53-47 already, less than 10 points "R".  Now, what about evangelical Christians?  Figure they run around 80-20 R and account for 20% of the total of white working class voters.  What's left is about 54-46 Democratic. and union members are likely overwhelmingly Democratic.

    b. It's not all that likely that the Democrats are ever going to make inroads with blue-collar evangelicals or working class white southerners.

    c. All this is becoming irrelevant in an environment where voters are micro-targeted.  You can find a white, southern, male, working class, married, evangelical Christian suburbanite from Mississippi who is a liberal Democrat.  Not a whole of of them, but they're out there.  In the mean time, "white working class male" is a fairly artificial construct that was designed to be a euphemism for white conservatives (based on how the educational and income boundaries are usually posed).

    The underlying message of this article is this: start prioritizing white male conservatives, rather than the large majority of people who aren't white male conservatives, because even though they're numerically a minority, they're a majority (if you get my drift) and therefore they count more.

    •  liberaldregs I had the same response (4+ / 0-)

      "White, working class" is a dog whistle to a white, conservative, anti government, anti black, anti-immigrant, anti feminist cohort.  The only way to attract them is on the backs of the groups who have become "traditional" Democrats.

      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

      by tikkun on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:45:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just looked at it as white swing voters (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, Stude Dude, ranton

      rather than those who habitually lather, rinse and repeat their support for Republican party votes and blather, regardless of new information.

      These would be moderates, primarily.  It's useless and counterproductive to court today's conservatives, since so many of the traditional conservatives have been corrupted by full-on court presses over the 30 years by hard-right, libertarian messaging through Republican-dominated media and religious channels.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:39:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, that is who my husband has the most luck (0+ / 0-)

        in talking to and getting them to register to vote and vote for at least some Democrats in his retail job, those swing voters, those sporadic voters, those moderate low informatino voters. He says he is able to talk to some of the moderately conservative coworkers as long as they are not Evangelicals. The Evangelicals are very much the base of the GOP just due to the abortion, birth control, and LGBT issues.

        Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

        by wishingwell on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:57:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Coincidence? You Be the Judge. (19+ / 0-)
    No Democratic presidential candidate has won a majority of white men since Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964.
    And no Democratic Presidential candidate has promised or delivered a major expansion of opportunity for the middle and working classes since LBJ either.

    Apart from brief unsustainable bubbles, every Democratic admin since LBJ has presided over an overall decline of the middle & working classes for a gain among the rich.

    A conservative party by definition doesn't have an expansion of opportunity to offer the middle class.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 01:59:52 PM PST

  •  Is it that simple? (6+ / 0-)
    Others see the championing of civil rights as a zero sum game; rights given to others must naturally be coming from somewhere, i.e. out of their own hides.
    Could so many people not understand that civil rights works the exact opposite way? (i.e. the more people who have rights means your rights are safer)

    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

    by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:13:07 PM PST

  •  what to do ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaNang65, DavidMS, dicentra

    "make Wall Street sad"

    Everyone born after Star Wars came out is basically a Democrat. -- Save The Clock Tower

    by jotter on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:19:21 PM PST

  •  Before I clicked on this... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mindful Nature, gjohnsit

    ...I thought to myself "Oh, we've stop arguing about whether we want them back at all?"

    Then I got to TomP's comment, and said to myself "Yep, that's where I recall things leaving off previously."

  •  Democrats are idiots (8+ / 0-)

    At least the ones who determine strategy are because pretending to be Republican has never worked, no matter how often or how sincerely they try it. But that never seems to suggest to them that maybe they should be behaving more liberally instead of less so, no matter how completely it's debunked. Howard Dean was the only one who has gotten that in the last twenty years or so.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:24:27 PM PST

  •  Dems are too busy reacting (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, LordMike

    They're never going to make any in-roads on any other constituency while they spend their time responding to Republicans.

    But, they'd have to come up with a coherent message on domestic and foreign issues and when's the last time that happened?

    One might reasonably conclude that everyone is pretty content with a constant tug-of-war where neither side advances much.

  •  Hammer the message: THE GOP IS OUT TO.... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, jasan, DavidMS, ranton, chrisculpepper

    .... FUCK YOU IN THE ASS, economically.

    Again and again and again and again.

    I'm a middle-aged white man. Most of us don't give much of a damn about anything more than our own pocketbooks.

    Guess what: That's plenty enough reason to want the Repubic Party wiped off the face of the earth.

    •  Sue's Womb, Sue marying Sue, And a Gun in your (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, Stude Dude, ranton

      pocket isn't going to change your net pay, your safety net, or your medical costs.

      Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

      by 88kathy on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:53:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dems never stopped appealing to their economic (5+ / 0-)

    interest. Whenever you heard the word 'Middle Class Families' over the past 30 years from a Democrat, white married men is who they are targeting.

    Democrats lost these voters over social issues. So what we need to do is text the extent to which those social issues (like guns) can be set aside for the economic ones by these voters. We should try and do that without compromising ourselves on the social issues. (Although I would table the issue of guns, despite my support for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment or lesser actions.)

  •  I'm a white guy. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, Odysseus, wader, Tonedevil

    I make a good living in a small family business.  I don't like paying taxes.  I vote Democrat for 2 reasons:

    1.  There is not one position the GOP stands for that I don't find abhorrent.  

    2.  Progressivism/liberalism makes more sense to me on how to run a railroad, so to speak.  Austerity doesn't work.  Supply-side economics doesn't work.  Taking away safety nets and social programs causes far more long term harm than good.  I'm pro-abortion because I'm not stuck in the 1950s and I'm pro-LGBT rights even though I really don't know anyone all that well who is LGBT.  I can't see any reason to be against gay marriage other than being a complete asshole.

    My main issue is that I don't believe the Democrats will spend tax money all that wisely or efficiently.  I feel like this is partly due to the fact that there are more incentives for people to go into the private sector.  Not to mention the fact that the right has demonized the government and government workers for the past few decades.  

    Fox News: Math You Do As A Republican To Make Yourself Feel Better

    by Pooter03 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:39:02 PM PST

  •  Schadenfreuede is a thing (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, wader, mbayrob, DavidMS, Stude Dude

    A good campaign might be mounted with the slogan

    Make Wall Street Sad in 2014

    Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

    by blue aardvark on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:39:59 PM PST

  •  why again do we care about the white dude vote? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    limpidglass, LordMike, Odysseus
    No Democratic presidential candidate has won a majority of white men since Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all prevailed with support of the so-called rising electorate of women, especially single women, and minorities. But fewer of those voters typically participate in midterm elections, making the votes of white men more potent and the struggle of Democrats for 2014 clear.
    The problem is not about how to win the white male vote but rather how to turn out the base.
    •  Reading comprehension: "These voters" = (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mindful Nature

      A) Women
      B) Minorities
      C) White men
      D) A and B
      E) Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama

      I like Marsha Blackburn on Facebook. Don't hate.

      by Benintn on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:22:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  So no "big tent" huh? nt (0+ / 0-)

      None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

      by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:24:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  a big tent is good, but if the goal is to do as (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida

        well in the mid-terms as we do in presidential election years, we don't, as the author of the article seems to assume, have to win over the white male vote. All we have to do is turn out the dem base who vote in presidential election years. It's a lot easier to turn out voters who are favorable to us than to win over and turn out voters who are not favorable to us.

    •  Message: "you don't have to be a white (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Square Knot

      guy to vote in mid-terms"...

      This is something Democrats need to have pounded into their heads--The president is not in charge of everything. Most things happen at the state  level, if you want your needs taken seriously you have to vote for state legislators, governors and other state officers, US House Reps, US Senators...and you really should even vote for Mayor/County Commissioner/etc. If you don't, someone else (a Republican, probably) will.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:44:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This FP article from February 18th is germane (6+ / 0-)

    Actual photo of the moment Democrats lost the white working class vote

    Money quote:

    [P]erhaps most importantly because it is so often overlooked in popular analysis, the defection of the white South from the Democratic Party plays a central role in driving the overarching story of white working class politics. As Bartels succinctly summarizes: “Democratic presidential vote share has declined by almost 20 percentage points among [S]outhern whites without college degrees. Among non-southern whites without college degrees, it has declined by one percentage point. That’s it. Fourteen elections, 52 years, one percentage point.”
    Therefore, there is a significant difference between Southern White workers and non-Southern white workers; and while an increase in the minimum wage may not help gain the votes of Southerners, it may in fact help elsewhere.

    Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

    by blue aardvark on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:45:18 PM PST

  •  Here is some easy ammo: (8+ / 0-)

    1) Raising the minimum wage (already covered, I know)
    2) Reform bankruptcy laws on student loans (I feel no obligation to help a mob enforcer recover a bad loan)
    3) Universal two-year college tuition grants equal to the state average tuition

    And we love to wear a badge, a uniform / And we love to fly a flag But I won't...let others live in hell / As we divide against each other And we fight amongst ourselves

    by ban48 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:49:41 PM PST

  •  Four points ... quibbles perhaps (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, DavidMS, TomP

    1) Human right are not anyone's to "give". Whenever I hear someone say that "we gave them their rights" I correct them. People may have claimed their rights, or taken their rights, but human rights are inalienable.

    2) Working class white men are not a monolithic bloc. And the New York Times or some wealthy white guy doesn't speak for them.

    3) I don't know if things have changed since 2004, but in that Presidential election the more money one made, the more likely it was that the person would vote Republican. The most racist folks I know are upper middle class, hands down.

    4) Finally (and I know this article didn't do this but the point needs to be made), working class and blue collar people include people of color. I don't know why the phrase "working class" too often refers to working class white men only. When I worked in the foundry back in the 1960s and early 1970s, the majority of my fellow workers were African-American and Latino. I doubt things have changed since then.

    A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

    by slatsg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:50:34 PM PST

    •  "Working class" is a subset of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Square Knot

      white men, to distinguish them from the presumption of affluence. For African Americans, the presumption goes the other way: we refer to the "Black middle class" to distinguish them from the presumption of poverty. As for working class, that seems to be almost passe--so many of the "working class" jobs have vanished, what do you call the people who used to have them? People still work, but they don't seem to constitute a "class" anymore.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:51:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's not as simple as appropriating (7+ / 0-)

    Elizabeth Warren's message.  Despite her unapologetically populist campaign she still lost white men in Massachusetts 42-56.  http://elections.nbcnews.com/...  Believe it or not Obama did better than her among white men in Massachusetts.  And did I mention this was in liberal commie Massachusetts?

    Certainly the populist message has great appeal to younger white men who are more liberal than their elders.  But winning over the elders is still a riddle than remains to be solved.  Somehow, someone's got to break the stranglehold Fox News and Limbaugh have over them.  My father in law is one of these older white men.  He grew up idolizing JFK and his dad was an FDR Democrat.

    But today he's a staunch conservative Republican.  I had a discussion about income inequality and economics with him while he was helping me move last Saturday and despite him being the classic average, working class white man, on every topic he's bought the boss's line.  Minimum wage increase?  It'll kill jobs.  Taxing the rich more?  That'll also kill jobs, plus they earned their money, and would you like it if you were rich and the government wanted to take your money?  Unions?  They served a purpose at one time, but look at what happened to Detroit.  Curbing "free" trade?  If you do that you'll hurt the economy, and besides the real problem is labor unions forcing employers to go overseas for less expensive labor, and of course illegal immigrants.

    What I think liberals underestimate is the extent to which many in the white working class have simply bought the right's argument.  I tried the hard populist sell with him, I really did, I mean I tried to be Huey Long, Elizabeth Warren, FDR, and William Jennings Bryan all rolled into one, at least rhetorically.  But we just ended up agreeing to disagree.  I don't know, maybe I'm just the wrong salesman.  

    And it's not just my father in law.  It's friends and neighbors and acquaintances, out here in liberal California.  I'm not saying we should just throw up our hands.  But it ain't as simple as flipping the right switch.  As I mentioned, maybe we just need the right salesperson.  

    "Those who have wrought great changes in the world never succeeded by gaining over chiefs; but always by exciting the multitude." - Martin Van Buren

    by puakev on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:59:10 PM PST

    •  Your dad's a dying breed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      puakev

      I hope he's healthy, and continues on that way.

      But his generation is on the way out, and the Fox's target audience is old.

      Changing party identification takes a long time.  Undoing years of self-deception takes years as well.

      But to change it, you need to start working on it now.  The coalition of FDR had its roots in the Progressive and Populist movements of the previous generation.  We start now,  and over time, the older generation will cease to matter, for so is the way of the world, neh?

      Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

      by mbayrob on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:05:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's my father in law (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chrisculpepper

        and the thing is, he's a wonderful guy and I love him to death.  Intelligent, has integrity, kind, easy-going, giving, not a mean-spirited or racist bone in his body - I'm Chinese and he's never treated me any differently from anyone else, same for my mixed-race daughter, who he could not adore more.

        But on the economic question and about the role of government, he's totally bought the conservative line, and so have many others like him.  And agreed that we'll have to work on persuading the younger generation because as is often the case, once folks get set in their political views, the older they get the harder it is to change their minds.  The Populist and Progressive movements are indeed instructive.  

        "Those who have wrought great changes in the world never succeeded by gaining over chiefs; but always by exciting the multitude." - Martin Van Buren

        by puakev on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:11:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  MA is actually rather culturally conservative (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida

      as I discovered when I lived there in the 1990s.  Elizabeth Warren is the first woman ever elected to the U.S. Senate from Massachusetts.  

      Prior to Warren's election, only two women had ever been elected to Congress from Massachusetts.  One was Niki Tsongas in 2007, a conservative Democrat...but not as conservative as Louise Day Hicks in 1970, a Democrat who won several elections in Boston by railing against integration.  

      Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

      by Big River Bandido on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:10:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can you say EFCA? Really, it's easy, 4 letters, (3+ / 0-)

    2 syllables, try it. Try EF CA, instead of F U - it can't hurt.

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:03:05 PM PST

  •  Stop (4+ / 0-)

    1) Being in Wall Street's pockets, period.

    2) Stop failing to vigorously defend liberal principles

    3) Stop trying to win elections with Republicans with D's Next to Their Names.

    4) Stop letting Republican attacks go unchallenged in the public square.

    What "white married working man" is going to care about the Democratic message of "equality" when all he hears are Republicans jawing about "Jobs", without actually creating any?

    There probably isn't a specific panacea to this problem; There is no longer "one thing" that would "solve" this issue.

    But Democrats have got to stop being wimps out their policies and beliefs and start defending them.

    Republicans aren't afraid to grab a Bible, a Flag, and a Bald Eagle and spew the words "Jobs", "Low Taxes", and "Small Government" over and over again.

    Therefore, Democrats need to be at least as stiff, if not stiffer, in promoting their own message. Period.

  •  Very easy to get a maj of white men to agree w/u (0+ / 0-)

    Just run on a  Republican platform . The problem  with that of course is that  you end up losing everyone else.

  •  Just let the OLD white men die off. (0+ / 0-)

    Those with any hint of rational thought will come around.

    Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

    by bobdevo on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:35:06 PM PST

  •  Gee, I'm a white, (5+ / 0-)

    married, older southern man with little formal education. I didn't know that I was such a prize.  

  •  Here's how (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, chrisculpepper

    Study all the nasty, childish, untrue crap the Republicans and Tea Partiers spue.  Understand why it resonates with certain white men.  Learn the psychology that makes it work.  Don't bother with facts now; stick with the psychology.  Use that understanding to gain entry to their attention.

  •  I have some thoughts on this. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rat racer

    Working class married white men are the prototypical LIV.  They are too preoccupied with the struggle to get by and support their own families to give more than a passing thought to politics, even though they of all people should be paying the most attention.  The messaging of Fox News appeals to them because it is simple, unambiguous and plays upon fear. These are concepts that do not require much attention or analysis.

    Democrats, OTOH, put forth complex, nuanced, and sometimes counter-intuitive aruguments.  Our positions require one to think a few steps ahead of tomorrow, which the LIV doesn't have time to absorb.  Someone said recently, "if you're explaining, you're losing."  Truer words were never spoken.  Unless it fits on a bumper sticker, the concept is too complex for the working class white person.

    Jussayin...

  •  I believe that running on a class war can avoid (3+ / 0-)

    some of the cultural divides for some white male voters.

    Make this election a massive statement about the wealthiest eating everyone's lunch and get all populist on how to bring a better balance into the mix, again - including taxes on trades/transactions and capital gains at certain levels, safety net buildup to lower the fear of losing/changing your job, etc.

    You can do all that without addressing guns or religion, for example.

    This would work best on the white male Independents, I feel - and, with current catharsis in the Republican party for who will own their extremist planks, it might grab some vaguely uncertain conservatives, too.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:46:52 PM PST

  •  Fix the economy, don't just talk about it (5+ / 0-)

    Do it.

    Raise the minimum wage, stop making excuses about why we have to ship jobs overseas.

    More recent Dem leaders thought they were really clever by talking about raising wages and reducing unemployment when they had no intention of working to actually get it done. Perfect examples of modern Dem policy malpractice is in weak stimulus aimed at tax cuts, failing to roll out funded programs to stop home foeclosures (HAMP),  failure to deal with currency manipulation and fair trade policies, the list is long.

    Neoliberals hate working class voters regardless of race, gender or ethnicity. They've created a perfect world where the can microtarget voting groups, focus on low information and wedge issue messaging and have corporate donors pay for it all. They only need the working class on election day.

    Fixing economic problems instead of using clever messaging for the miserable will regain the trust of voters. But we'll have to remove the neolibs from power to make it happen.

    Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

    by Betty Pinson on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 03:48:30 PM PST

  •  This is vaguel racist and sexist..here's why (3+ / 0-)
    Some white men have proved to be within reach: single men, college students and graduates with advanced degrees, the nonreligious, and gay men.
    In other words, it isn't race or gender, it's religion.  Specifically, evangelical Christians.  Of any color. Of any gender.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:02:53 PM PST

    •  Yep, lostboyjim (3+ / 0-)

      I've been picking up those free religious newspapers (to start my fires in woodstove!) they're chock full of right wing political crap. Even our local congress critters write articles in them. Between that, the preachers, and "JoyFM", they're too far gone to reason with. The religious right needs a visit from the IRS.

  •  Dem Pols are afraid of tangible econ wins (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DavidMS, Stude Dude

    Married white men are not completely stupid in how they vote but they have even less time to file a lawsuit to defend their rights and they don't make eligible or sympathetic plaintiffs for non-profit legal support groups that specialize on women's and minority issues.

    Min wage increases mean more money for them and their families. It is a tangible right they don't need to fight in court or risk their jobs to enforce.

    Mandatory PTO and sick leave are similar. Unenforceable and complex regulation does not appeal to them and that is usually want the D politicians are offering. They cynically but not unreasonably consider these offerings welfare for trial lawyers.  

    The problem is that many D politicians create economic rights and regulations that need a lawyer to actually enforce and are thus largely unenforceable for a primary breadwinner with kids of either gender.

    Married men would vote against bad trade treaties if they could. They would vote for higher wage guarantees and vacation/sick time.  They might even vote to make it easier and safer to form a union. They would probably vote for 401k reform (outrageous fees and bad plans are a big extraction of wealth from the top 20-40% of workers). They would vote to increase SS benefits.

  •  As an older white male Democrat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrisculpepper, a2nite

    I think it does begin with the Civil Rights Act. Not always in a hateful or racist way but with the huge glut of disinformation and appeals to prejudices that are in everyone. North/South divides, East/West divides, white collar/blue collar, etc.

    Race was the biggest issue though and I think it is ridiculous to ignore its role.

    A lot of white Union workers supported Republicans because in 1964 Republicans did not stridently oppose unions. And they were being told constantly that Civil Rights meant unequal rights and Women's Rights meant unequal rights. And those workers weren't told the jobs were being shipped overseas and that corporate policies were obsoleting them. Anecdotally if your company has 100 employees and 20 are black and 30 are women you see 50 jobs that are not held by white males and if you or your friend cannot find work and people are constantly telling you that that is why, you can fall for that bullshit. It does not matter that it is crap. When you are down you grasp at straws.

    Once those voters started identifying with Republicans they ignored the shift away from workers and the Republicans kept up with their tribal identity politics. If you are 55-plus and watch Fox News you are pretty much gone.

    I don't think you can win back most of those voters. I think the Party should try – but the answer is not to surrender anyone else's rights. Most of the effort should go into identifying what value, as a Party, we can add to the lives of white males between the ages of 16 and 24. If they identify the policies that help them – and the case is made that it is not a zero-sum they will vote Democrat and become consistent supporters. I think ObamaCare will become an important tool in that education.

    If you want to go traditional values – every young person starting a family wants affordable health care. Most important thing after a job for any family regardless of gender, color, creed or orientation.

    "You know, just because the thing I saw wasn't there doesn't mean there wasn't something there that I didn't see." Ann Althouse, Conservative Thoughtmeister

    by Bill Section 147 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:11:02 PM PST

  •  Can I be honest here? (6+ / 0-)

    Yes, I do care about winning elections but...

    I really don't give too much of shit what working class white men who vote against their own interests think.

    Because I pretty much understand that these do so more less because of racism, sexism, homophobia, or the dream of hitting the lotto.

    If they want to join in, fine.

    If not, that's fine too.

  •  Could it be that "white men" are no more monolithc (3+ / 0-)

    that any other group? This is what neither party gets. All of these groupings are artificial constructs that serve to make sales discussions easier, but have nothing to do with the people being discussed.

    I can tell you that there are a lot of men, and women, of all shades that will vote for people that stand for and up for something, before casting their ballot for someone that just wants to win an office.

    Or here's a radical concept, instead of spending another cycle searching for the non-existent position that won't upset anybody in the equally mythical middle, the party could clarify and fight for actual principles that might attract people from the almost half of eligible citizens that don't vote at all?

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

    by Greyhound on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:40:34 PM PST

  •  Tell them we'll fucking kill them unless... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrisculpepper

    ...the vote Democratic.  That kind of language appeals to white men, as I understand it.

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:43:05 PM PST

  •  Mitt Romeny won white males 65% - 32% in (4+ / 0-)

    2012.  What the hell could Romney/Republicans offer the average white guy that Obama/Democrats didn't.  Some of the reflexive defenses of "white males" in this diary are truly pathetic.   If these opinions are truly representative of the Democratic Party, we are truly fucked.

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 04:44:03 PM PST

    •  old, young, male, female, whites vote R over D (3+ / 0-)

      Romney not only won white males, he won white females

      Among young whites, they voted 51-44 Republican.

      Obama lost the white vote in all but 4 or 5 states.

      Democrats don't have a generic 'woman voters' edge, they have a massive minority woman voters edge. The reason we do much better among young voters is because they are disproportionately minority. Married people tend to be older, and older voters tend to be whiter.

      So many of the demographic subgroups among voters are not independent of race.

  •  Perhaps Put A Few Exciting Attractive (0+ / 0-)

    Democratic Party Women out in front of the public to advertise the Democratic Agenda

    For example Kristen Gillebrand.  She's attractive and would pull in white males with their tongues hanging out.  

    She could shake her moneymaker.

    It is how Cher does her concerts nowadays.  She stands in the background or on the edge of the stage and only occasionally swoops in to the performance.  The younger women do the actual dancing.  And everyone thinks Cher still has it.

    Kristen could be out front while Hillary is draggin' ass in the back.

    Old white men voted for Palin for no other reason.

    It's sad.

    The old white men demographic will respond to nothing else.

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

    by kerplunk on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:06:14 PM PST

  •  give them something to fear. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alice in Florida

    Something to hate.

    Seriously.  That's what the GOP gives them.

    Otherwise, it ain't gonna happen.


    "Legalizing pot won't make more pot-smokers. It will just make fewer criminals. - Me

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:08:27 PM PST

    •  There was once a time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida

      when politicians got elected by promising a bright future.
      Now they get elected by warning of a dark present.

      None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

      by gjohnsit on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:31:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Can't outhate hate (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chrisculpepper

      Those white males who vote out of fear of others will never hate and fear the 1% more than "Those People". Well, maybe in the event of a Great Depression 2.0, but in that nightmare scenario they'll be supporting the brownshirts.

      But the GOP is playing with fire. For a long time, they've relied on a 'Silent Majority' strategy by implicit and explicit demonization of those who don't fit into the classic stereotype of an American. It's been successful for a long time, but the demographics are finally catching up to them. Quite frankly, there is a very large segment of the population which absolutely loathes them for their racialist privilege way of thinking and talking, before even getting to their other policy stances.

      To talk personally, there's been a lot I've been disappointed with regarding Obama and the Democratic Party since 2008, and if I were someone who voted strictly on the issues, I might have thrown my hands up and said a pox on both houses and either sat out the election or voted Green. But then, I see those smug arrogant Republican a-holes in Congress, on TV, on the Internet, and my hatred of their worldview (I try not to hate them personally, but it's not easy) just explodes. It makes me willing, as they say, to crawl over broken glass to vote them out of office whenever I can.

      So as negative as hatred can be, it's not something that only works against us.

  •  I hate to say this, but... (3+ / 0-)

    It might be in our best interest to just cut them loose. They started voting republican for culture war reasons. Economic issues aren't going to change that. They aren't gaining anymore from the GOP than they were fifty years ago when they were mostly voting democratic so obviously this isn't a money issue.

    No, all white males are not homophobic and sexist but what else can we offer these people? We've told them repeatedly that tax cuts for the wealthy don't help them and no matter how many times they see it they never change. At some point, the problem is on their end.

    If we really want to win them back, we need to show them that equality really isn't a threat to them and at the same time, make them see what they've been voting for this whole time has been harming them. But it has to be a culture war issue first. Ultimately I think we're better off just reaching out to younger white males. They haven't been tainted by the bitterness of these issues in a way that we can't reach them. A lot of their parents generation are already gone.

    •  About that "equality" thing (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with you.  But I think the argument must go a little farther than it "really isn't a threat to them".  Most of them have a weak spot somewhere, a part of them that does identify with vulnerability or the underdog.  Maybe his mother or sister or wife had breast cancer.  Maybe he has a medical crisis of his own.  Maybe he was bullied as a kid and still recalls it with shame.  Maybe he loses his job and gets cast into the New Economy and finds, damn, it really doesn't work so well for him.  Somewhere, even the most unreconstructed among them have an issue that will touch them.  

      The trick is not in leveraging their self-interest, that's easy.  The hard part is getting them to draw the connection between their issue, and those of others, and to see their issue as part of a larger whole.  In essence, to consent to walk for a bit in someone else's shoes, to be changed by the experience by identifying oneself with rather than against others.  

      Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

      by Big River Bandido on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:51:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Apparently you didn't get the memo. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    The Democrats are playing a long game strategy -- eliminate the white male vote by breeding all the white women to brown men. Once we get rid of the white race altogether, we can remake America into our dream vision of a mooslim kenyan worker's paradise.

    Heck, even our enemies have figured that out!

    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

    by UntimelyRippd on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:20:48 PM PST

  •  Drive around in big pickup trucks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit, chrisculpepper, Tony Situ

    with large gun racks and confederate flag mud flaps blasting Toby Keith on the stereo, for starters. Also, nuke Russia, make Ted Nugent Secretary of Killing Things and make Southern Comfort the National Liquor. That should work.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:28:14 PM PST

  •  Got a few tips (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    andalusi

    I have a friend who lives across the river in Virgina.  He hates Cuccinelli in the won't spit on him if he is on fire sense of the word  for signing off on a settlement with the banksters regarding fraudulent mortgage practices.  This may be a good place to start.  

    We can also push unionization which is a good step  in the right direction.  Or at the minimum provide federal protections to political speech outside of the workplace with fairly serious penalties for anyone person in the chain who hires, fires, promotes, supervise, assigns tasks or legal council to the human resources department regarding an employee who is discriminated against, fired or disciplined for political activity conducted outside the workplace.  Make it an up to 3 year felony and a fine not to exceed $250K.  

    At the end for the day its the narrative.  We make a list of priorities while instead the Republicans articulate a vision.  Our vision should be, "Elect me and I will fight to protect your basic and fundamental rights."  Then do it.

    I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

    by DavidMS on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:33:40 PM PST

  •  change the dialogue. use good storytelling (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Big River Bandido, Tony Situ

    Truth.  The truth.
    1. Talk about their parents.  Most white men (most men) care about their parents.  Show them how Democrats choices will help their parents and at the same time show how Republican choices have hurt them.

    2. Jobs - show them how you will help them and their family and their jobs.

    3. Veterans Care - wave the flag and make it clear that Dems are going to pay more respect to Vets with the real actions.  

    4. Crossing the divide stories.  Precise and to the point.
    just as some are doing with ACA stories, find some men who are willing to talk about how Rep actions have hurt them and how Dem actions will help.  Get local when you can.  one town at a time can shift a whole state.  Folks talk.

    I'll bet there are more good ideas.  At the heart of part of the problem/solution is listening.

  •  A salient comment (3+ / 0-)

    "Others see the championing of civil rights as a zero sum game; rights given to others must naturally be coming from somewhere, i.e. out of their own hides. What else you got?"

    This is how my mom responds to these things. She treats our economy and our culture as a zero sum game. Gains for the hispanics must be coming from the whites. Gains for 'blacks' must also becoming at the expense of the white majority, and so on.

    She is hardly alone in this, and as her standard of living and economic stability have decreased, she sees the rise of politicians like Obama with a sort of anxious worry that the America she knew will soon no longer exist, and that the white american will soon be on the 'bottom' of the 'pecking order'.

    It's completely insane, of course, but it's pervasive, even in people who vote Democratic like my mom, when she bothers to vote at all.

  •  I guess standing up for the working people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ranton, Big River Bandido

    is a concept beyond the Democratic establishment.

    Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  Stop trying to cut Social Security. Find ways to expand Social Security and MediCare.

    Address income and wealth inequality. Reverse laws which damage workers' interests. Cancel offshoring profits benefits.

    The easy summary: Start supporting the working class again. Clearly, loudly, openly.

    Of course, since the Democratic establishment is owned outright by Wall Street and corporate interests, that's probably impossible.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:20:50 PM PST

    •  I would add make raiding pension plans illegal for (5+ / 0-)

      those who still have pension plans...what an utter disgrace to allow and facilitate that kind of corporate theft from working class people.

      Robber Baron "ReTHUGisms": John D. Rockefeller -"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets"; Jay Gould -"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."

      by ranton on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:36:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pension plans of some form should be mandatory. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ranton, LordMike

        And strong laws requiring fiduciary responsibility to be maintained should be enforced, for all public and private pensions.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:36:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Elizabeth Warren lost thewhite male vote handily (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Berkeley Fred, jdsnebraska, LordMike

      as someone pointed out above, and that was in Massachusetts.  Since her economic populist message lost the white male vote by a large in Massachusetts, where's the evidence that such a message would win that demographic nationwide?

      Folks should face the fact that white males vote GOP for other reasons; reasons that are ugly, reasons that Democrats would be loathe to cater to.

  •  If they chase THOSE whites, they lose THIS white (4+ / 0-)

    If ever the Democratic Party appeals to the knuckle draggers, they are bound to lose an equal if not greater number of the non-sloped forehead variety.

    By "lose" I mean politically. While white male progressives like myself won't go Galt GOP, our lack of enthusiasm will negate any gains made by making nice with Johnny Reb.

    I expect most other groups within the Democratic camp would feel more non-plussed. Just a tad.

    Sort of like compromising with Republicans in Congress: It gets you nowhere except backwards with your own supporters. How did that work last time?

  •  I would almost feel sorry for the DLCers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrisculpepper

    and "Wall Street Democrats" who gave the Party's contemporary establishment its ideological underpinnings — if they weren't such assholes.  

    Within the last year or so, probably in an FP diary, I read a fact which destroys the New York Times' political "concern" over how white men vote.  Every month 100,000 people die, and because they're older, they skew heavily white.  And while that's going on, every month 60,000 Latinos turn 18.  

    In the context of that political truth, there's only one reason these so-called "Democrats" concern-troll the emerging demographics of the Democratic coalition: they're panicked at the sudden realization that tomorrow's Democrats don't look like them.  To these guys' so-called "minds", 3 female or brown votes aren't worth as much as a single vote from a white man.  

    Move along, folks, nothing to see here.  No hysterical shrieking from the boys who sold the Democratic Party down the river is going to reverse the seismic, long-term shifts in actuarial and demographic trends.  The emerging electorate is likely to cast these "concerns" about where votes come from into the shitcan where they belong.

    Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

    by Big River Bandido on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:39:06 PM PST

  •  Ain't Going to Happen (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gramofsam1, chrisculpepper, Tony Situ

    Non-union, straight white men simply want to go in the opposite direction that progressives want to go. As the post says, you can win back some white males by strengthening unions. But in an era where workers vote against unionization even when the company management is supportive of unionization, that's not going to happen for a long time to come. The only way to win back non-union straight white men is for the Democrats to become Republicans.

    In fact, because of demographic changes, the Democrats are better off forgetting about placating white males.

  •  White Men Need Help (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jarrayy, chrisculpepper, LordMike
    white men have no great need to hear about how a party will protect their rights, because they do not have the same reminders of needing that protection.

    I'd think record unemployment, stagnant or declining wages, stolen pensions, broken unions and overall labor oppression would be pretty sharp reminders.

    But evidently White men don't see those as reminders to vote for Democrats. Maybe because Democrats aren't that good at protecting them? It could be just that Republicans are better at lying to them. But that's Democrats' fault for letting them.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:07:04 PM PST

    •  yep, it's always Dems' fault. (0+ / 0-)

      Couldn't possibly be simply a fulfillment of LBJ's prophecy, that the Civil Rights Bill would lose the Dems whites in the south for a generation (and as pointed out in multiple posts above, nearly all the Dems' decline in white male vote since LBJ's time has occurred in the south).

      The bigotry of GOP-voting white males and the lying of the
      GOP is Dems' fault.  Yep, that's it!

      •  This Is Their Fault (0+ / 0-)

        Democrats aren't that good at protecting anyone. That is their fault. It makes it easy for bigots to think the side that's winning is the one that tells them the Other is weakening them.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 07:38:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This Working Class White Man votes democrat. (0+ / 0-)

    Because even I can see that 2+2=4.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 08:20:55 PM PST

  •  Forget white men (0+ / 0-)

    Women are half the population.  Figure in non-white men.  And men who are white, but not straight.  And men who are not white, and not straight.  Math.

    Col. Brandt: "What do you think we'll do when we lose the war?" Capt. Kiesel: "Prepare for the next one." --from "Cross of Iron"

    by ConservatismSuxx on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:05:15 PM PST

  •  so white men are spoiled brats wanting their way (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell

    and they have to be coddled, catered to, and made to feel needed and or superior.

    perhaps we need to see how many have actually grown up first.

    cheerleaders need not apply.

    by kravitz on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:02:05 PM PST

  •  The term "old white men" is used on this site (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ksuwildkat, LordMike

    with depressing frequency, and with derogatory intent. I get that DKos isn't the face of the Democratic party, but more of a fringe base, but still. You're not going to win them over that way. Possibly more strongly identifying with class issues, understanding the religious needs of a great number of them, and their innate desires surrounding the idea of personal freedom could help. Although identity politics has borne great results, it's probably time to get back to class issues.

  •  With Democrats.... (0+ / 0-)

    You may have to register your guns, but the water will remain clean with no chemical or coal ash spills, with fish you can catch and eat, and the forests will continue to exist and  be full of game, you can hunt in season.  

    You and your village will be able to help your children get ahead.

  •  In the early 80'S I a white male was a repub (0+ / 0-)

    Went to college that all changed.  Get more white males ot a higher ed program. That's the answer.

    "We need a revolution away from the plutocracy that runs Government."

    by hangingchad on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 06:44:36 PM PST

  •  perhaps we could start to take the MRM more seriou (0+ / 0-)

    Things like alimony and inflexible(bradly amendment) child support should be re-examined.. And even if false rape allegations are over stated by them to take that serious too by maybe extending rape shield laws to the accused until found guilty. Perhaps more programs to reach male victims of domestic abuse? There are many things we could do to reach out to all men regardless of color.

    and on the race part of things.. Maybe we should stop talking in tones that intentionally inflame race relations; like the 'browning of America ' makes it seem like political power is a zero sum game where whites are on one side and everyone else on the other.

    just some ideas

  •  sign me up! (0+ / 0-)

    You know, when I read sites like this and Think Progress, and read about how racist and evil white males are, it sure makes me wanna sign up and participate and on top of that, vote for your politicians.

    Don't get me wrong, the Republicans are stupid, too.

    I'll be staying home on election day, thank you very much.

    Now hurry up and ban me, heaven forbid there is "diversity of opinion" around here....not that I'm interested in sticking around and being a punching bag for the "englightened".

  •  Not being at the front of the line (0+ / 0-)

    to cut military retirement pay (COLA), current pay, current benefits, current and accumulated deferred compensation (pension), and all the time telling your military that they aren't at all worth what they were when they signed up - I guess all those years serving in combat zones only served to decrease their value -

    ...would be one way to start ensuring the support of a non-traditional "D" demographic (the military).

    Crosses racial lines, so I apologize if it doesn't belong here.  But I do feel it was a huge sucker punch to all the military folks who were so gung-ho for an Obama presidency.

  •  Hey! I'm right here! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Apost8

    Isn't always the way? The nice pleasant middle-class white man who is happy to support you gets ignored. Instead, you chase after those rebels without a clue... the GOP-backing bad boys with their adolescent fantasy world of trickle down riches, cheap beer, and flag-pin-wearing Republican defenders of freedom. I say forget those idiots. Quit trying to chase them or triangulate some compromise position. If you would only stand up for people and strongly promote progressive values without equivocation, those white men will come to you. At least the ones who are worth a damn.

    •  this begs the question (0+ / 0-)

      Are white males either naval gazing progressives OR tobaccy chewing tea-baggers, and never anything "in between"...like say, a person who wants everyone to enjoy equal rights but at the same time have less government involvement/interference in their lives?

      Oh nevermind, that's my "evil white priveledge" speaking. I have no concerns, and I'm a "bigot" because of my skin color...a hurr-dee-hurr.

      Okay, don't worry. No more posts from me. Enjoy your bubble.

      •  I feel so honored (0+ / 0-)

        that my humble comment inspired you to grace me with your farewell GBCW post. Congrats on your support for equal rights despite your melanin-challenged condition.

        I haven't felt any urgent personal need for less government, so I guess I have been fortunate in that respect. It seems to me that most government regulations have been earned by the people and industries they regulate.

        I do enjoy bubbles though. Best of luck with that white-priveledge thing.  

  •  Fear (0+ / 0-)

    I have seen many comments to the effect that Republicans play on fear to attract voters, whereas Democrats appeal to reason.  There is certainly some truth to this.  However, there is fear driving Democratic party votes, too:

    Women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, non-Christians, etc. sometimes vote Democratic - even when they dislike the candidate or some of the party's actions - because they fear the Republicans will take away their rights.  Not "stop granting them extra privileges."  But take away their basic human rights.

    White, straight Christian males - those who fit into the categories that traditionally have had rights in this country - are generally not worried that Republicans will take away their rights.  (Instead, Republicans have tried to convince them that, by extending basic human rights to all, it's somehow the Democrats who will take away their rights.)  Except when Democrats play the populist/economic card - "Republicans will take away your money/your job" - the Democratic Party can't really scare this demographic into voting for them, and has to rely on a charismatic candidate, a strong platform, a history of positive action, etc.

    Unfortunately, on one issue where Democrats could use fear to appeal to just about everyone - "Vote for us or your right to privacy will disappear" - neither side has the moral high ground.  Likewise with some other Bill of Rights issues sometimes presented as Libertarian wishlists, but actually protected in the Constitution and once, defended by our courts.

    All this being said, I wish we did not have to appeal to fear, and could instead present a platform the Party adheres to and candidates who reliably enact it, once elected.

  •  What To Do: International Minimum Wage (0+ / 0-)

    The right thing to do to bring in workers of all varieties is an international minimum wage. Want to help out "working-class married men" (and women)? How about something that actually lifts their wages?

    The simple truth is that our trade policy is what is impoverishing these people. It's also what allows employers to dispense with unions. This is a self-reinforcing destruction cycle, destroying our economy from within and taking our party along with it.

    At some point we have to put a stop to the drain. Someone needs to put a plug in it. The Democratic Party could come out for an international minimum wage. It's an obvious thing to do, both economically and politically.

    So, why hasn't the party stepped up to this easy play? Well, one would think the only reason would be because a bunch of insiders are bought off. But that's only how it appears. What's the truth?

  •  The working-class married men... (0+ / 0-)

    need to be reminded that as family men the Republican Party is no friend to their wives, daughters, or other female family members.  

    They have invaded the reproductive rights of women, they have denied unemployment extensions, they have consistently denied equal pay for equal work, they have not blinked when denying the SNAP program knowing it affects military families, the elderly, and children.  

    As a family man they must realize their precious sons can be called on at any time to fight in a trumped up war, perhaps losing his life or coming home a mental and/or physical wreck.

    They have proven they favor military action as they repeatedly denounce diplomacy and shout weakness because a Democratic president refuses to storm into battle.

    If they are truly "family men," they know that dire circumstances can happen to any family at any time.  They might be doing well in a job they consider permanent, to never consider the possibility of change for the worst and to prepare for it is irresponsible.

    The Republican Party is not a family values party though they will campaign on it, will swear they are.  We know better.

    •  this will never work (0+ / 0-)

      these men often are proud of their duty to be the sole protector of their daughters and with divorce rates skyrocketing they have iffy relationships with their wives. They consider military service the highest honor even if it was for an unnecessary war.

  •  White men? Balogney, let's look deeper... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite

    The entire concept of trying to get back "White men" is a falsehood and incredibly misleading. There is not one single block of voters these days, who are white men, but are divided into different AGE groups as well as many other demographic definitions.

    If the Dem's are trying to gain back "white men" over a 52 plus years of age, it might be more difficult then a younger demographic who look for different things in life and politics.

    The idea that the Dems have lost white men, speaks to the adage that the GOP has this group in their midst because they address their concerns more then the Dem's. However if you dig a bit deeper, I am quite certain that if marketed correctly, they could be persuaded to view politics in a slightly different lens.

  •  The D's will know by the midterms (0+ / 0-)

    if its worth it.

  •  Talk about jobs (0+ / 0-)

    It would be nice to see a Democratic candidate talk about a comprehensive jobs program without constantly falling back to the lazy refrain of "teachers, firefighters and police officers." You sort of need an audience bigger than those, especially since you're probably hard pressed to get votes out of two of your three fave job constituencies.

    You'd really like to see a Democratic candidate be able to walk up to a pick up truck with some working class guys and articulate an economic plan that could be explained in three minutes and would carry some currency in that setting.

    Well, that's where I'd start at least.

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