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UPDATE:  while negotiations were underway to resolve this - the content of this diary was removed.

the negotiations failed.  the diary is now restored in full, complete with the discussion at that time.  i will be publishing much more information on this topic in the coming days!

you may note that many of the links no longer work as sanderbeck attempted to scrub the internet of all traces of her comments and negative comments - INCLUDING trying to force dailykos to remove this specific diary.  i removed it as an attempt to help the negotiators resolve this situation with the caveat that should those negotiations fail, the diary would be restored.

       * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

i am livid!  another of these stories has crossed the wire and it is time for all of us to stand up and stop what is happening in the name of rescue.

UPDATE: 4/28 - 1:05pm:  here is more information on this situation.  IF piper is not returned to the rightful owner, veronica covatch, by the end of day, i will be doing a more comprehensive diary on this situation and the rescue in question.  for the current information and discussion (which is huge in the dog world), please go to this facebook page set up to bring piper home!

a purebred Sheltie being babysat while the owner was at the Nationals got out of that friend's yard and was picked up by animal control. three days later, piper (the pup) was snatched up by one of the "purebred rescue" groups, Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue.  despite being given ample proof of the dog's owners, the Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue (who collected the dog from Franklin Shelter after three days) has refused to return the sheltie.   the pup was picked up and held three days, the rescue grabbed her on the fourth, was contacted by the owners on the fifth day.  then, this ugly story takes a very unhappy turn.

i'm not condemning all rescue organizations here - some are sincere and work hard to place dogs in danger.  what i AM condemning are these so-called "rescues" that have close ties to shelters to go in and grab any purebred dog that is found, will quickly change the name of the dog (even if they are able to trace the owner) and "sell" that dog for a hefty "adoption" fee (which, btw, is illegal under the terms of the 501(c)3's they operate within).

this particular case is very disturbing - the dog's owners have provided ample proof to this rescue - however, this self-appointed "dog rescuer" has "decided" the best place for the dog is where it is!

i am posting the response visible on their facebook page for all to read (please hold onto your hats, it is absolutely UNFRIGGINBELIEVEABLE!!!)

Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue
5 hours ago
On Monday of last week we picked up a dog from the shelter that no one claimed after it had served it's legal three days stray hold (thank God it wasn't killed). We vetted it and placed into foster care as we normally do. Please remember by law a dog that is unlicensed even if it has an UNREGISTERED microchip only has to be held for three days and can be placed or euthanized after that.

Suddenly on Tuesday (Fifth day...we picked up on fourth) I had six people trying to claim a particular black and white dog that they heard we had. I called each person and told them the same thing....I asked each person to allow me the time to discern what was going on and that IF this was the dog in question, it was safe and well cared for. I told each person this would not be a priority since the dog was now safe and I was caring for a friend with cancer in addition to working daily but due diligence would be given to each and every claim. With six in question...this does take time.

By Thursday afternoon, I had volunteers and veterinarians receiving threats, friends being called and harrassed, threats of withholding donations, email slander campaigns going on, facebook slamming, lies and childish behavior with demands being posted to facebook pages. My requests for time to discern truth from fiction was ignored and our lives were made into a living hell with the constant barrage. I requested on Tuesday that it be halted...I was ignored.

Our volunteers work hard to save these lives and such behaviors of others that do not even know what rescue is about is appalling. How many of you have sat in the rain on a cold morning in a lawn chair in front of a shelter waiting on it to open just to save a dog's life? How many of you even have in your contracts to return the dog to you?

I sat quietly and watched as these behaviors, harrassment and threats continued to escalate. I have no reason to defend a thing. It quickly became apparent that the best place for any dog...whether the one in question was indeed the one they wanted or not...was to stay right where it was. Here this dog will be adopted into a loving, safe, calm environment permanently and not into three homes in one year.

We exercised our legal and moral right to uphold our promises to every dog that comes into our care to continue our care of it for life. Each post, each private message, each email, each falsehood and cry for mislead actions (and so much of the half truths being shared) only solidifies that this was the correct decision for the dog that legally resides with us.

I do not have to explain a thing...I do not choose to give fuel to your fires by going into any further detail at this time. Understand that we are fully within our legal rights and keep the best interest of this and every dog dog that comes into our care in mind. I asked for a amicable solution but was hit with more childish behavior and threats to our volunteers. The line was crossed.

Please go ahead and withhold or "unfriend" as you please...we would rather you do that if you truly don't have the best interest of these dogs in mind anyway. We will continue to help the shelties in need that come along and withholding your support financially will only hurt the dogs in need. If you can live with that, do what you must.

Do not explain a thing: your enemies won't believe you and your friends won't require it!

8:35 PM PT: this is a statement made approx. 8pm tonite (pst) by piper's owner, veronica covatch on her facebook page (linked at the top):

Veronica Wagner Covatch

To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

23 mins · Like · 5

for more in this story, please come below the fold...

i have taken screen shots since the "rescue" deleted my comment and blocked me from further commenting (because i called them out for the behavior) - so i feel that a record is needed since a lawsuit by the owners is forthcoming.

why am i writing about this?

because it isn't the first time and won't be the last that some goody-two-shoes who makes a profit off grabbing dogs from the shelter refuses to return the dog to the rightful owner.

we need laws to stop this - we need regulation over these "non-profits" that run massive fundraisers, web pages begging for financial support, all to "support" their stealing dogs and re-selling them.

these groups do damage to the real people who are trying to help dogs and owners in need.

well, i now have a cause - a specific one.  i'll be requesting the financial records for this 501(c)3 and will be doing some monitoring to see Penny Sanderbeck (Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue) does what is legal AND moral and returns Piper to her family.

NO one is above the law - and, from the comments on the Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue's excuse thread, they also lied to cover up knowing who the legitimate owners are.  The dog is registered, the chip is registered, the akc papers are registered - all provided to this woman who DECIDED that SHE has the authority to keep the dog.

the microchip company confirmed that they could trace the number and that the vet AND owner were readily available - yet, sanderbeck or someone on her facebook page lied.

let's see if she does the right thing by returning the legal property (if one has to go that direction) or if she wants to see more articles like this spread across the internet!

let the legal battle begin!

i hope this becomes the test case for EVERY rescue that steals dogs and re-sells them.  

why does this disturb me so much?  well, watch the pbs documentary on Katrina's Dogs and see the anguish in the faces of those whose dogs were "rescued" and sent to other parts of the country - whose owners never stopped searching for the one thing left after the storm only to have their dogs hidden again and kept from them.  

any dog can be let loose, any dog can be stolen, any dog can slip away even in the best of circumstances.  who gives the penny sanderbeck's of the world the arrogance to decide what is "best" for that beloved pet.

please give them a piece of your mind!  i can't.  the site blocked me from even sending them a message - privately.  guess they don't like being called out for being wrong!

3:36 PM PT: i left out the link to the documentary "katrina's lost dogs" - seems it is an indy film called "mine" - i linked the page here but haven't watched the entire clip - don't know if it is a preview or the whole film - but please forgive me if i can't watch it right now.  this film tears me to pieces.

8:35 PM PT: this is a statement made approx. 8pm tonite (pst) by piper's owner, veronica covatch on her facebook page (linked at the top):

Veronica Wagner Covatch To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

23 mins · Like · 5

i have put the quote in both the intro and at the end, as well as the comments, so that all might read it for clarification on this matter!

Originally posted to edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 11:13 AM PDT.

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has your dog (or cat) ever slipped out of your yard?

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Comment Preferences

  •  The Katrina's Dogs doc sounds heartbreaking (16+ / 0-)

    The shelter I volunteer at, thousands of miles away in California, took in a number of Katrina dogs.

    A few of them were identified, after we got them and started caring for them (treating some for serious conditions like heartworm), by their original owners.  We were thrilled, and reunited them.  Who would do otherwise??

    •  thank you for reminding me - i forgot to link (6+ / 0-)

      the pbs katrina's dogs documentary...

      i'm so mad i'm spitting nails here ... so mad i'm not going to the barn since my "pony" doesn't need to be exposed to how furious i am.

      i'll update the diary now with the pbs story...

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:22:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's the revenge of the good (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        whaddaya, Piren

        Some wacky people are also kind and loving, and this wacky one determined the dog she'd fallen for was in need of stability. She wants the dog, she can't give it up, so she's told herself that the real owners weren't responsible and don't deserve to get the dog back.

        I think everyone should be glad the pooch isn't dead or in some  mean person's house. It's a custody battle.  Sure, sad for the owners, but it's a pure bred, they can probably afford another one, and if not, they could get a shelter dog.   The new owner is very attached, I don't think they'd need to worry that their dog wasn't loved and petted and seen to.

        I don't get this pure bred thing anyway, wouldn't it be the same if it were a mixed breed?  Or an adopted dog?  

        plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

        by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:06:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good grief! (16+ / 0-)
          sad for the owners, but it's a pure bred, they can probably afford another one,
          Our relationships with our fur families don't work that way! Just buy another one, indeed.  

          And nothing in the story suggests that there is already deeply attached new owner. It sounds like the dog may still be in shelter, or in a foster placement.

          But yes, the problem would (should) be the same if it were a mixed breed or adopted stray. It's just that as a pure bred there is much more demand. Note the rescue group says they've gotten calls from six separate people claiming ownership.

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:14:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  sanderbeck placed the dog into a foster the day (8+ / 0-)

            after pulling her from the shelter - the next day, she was contacted by the rightful owners.  according to her own post on her "rescue" fb page, six people contacted her immediately - all trying to let her know who owned the dog.  

            SHE chose to refuse to return the dog (and why not! - "rescues" SELL for anywhere between $450 and $800 for a good purebred - and that if from a RESCUE organization!)

            this is a huge money making business raking in a ton of donations and private funding - then the dogs are "sold".  more money to supplant the lifestyle of some very disreputable "directors" of said rescues.

            this isn't the first occasion where dogs have been stolen or have ended up pulled from shelters and then traced to the "rescues" (that have arrangements with most shelters to pull them as soon as legal) were not returned to the rightful owners.

            it is a bigtime scam in SOME circumstances.  there are good rescues and then there are those who steal dogs for profit.

            i've adopted from rescues - and one, i'll never go back to again because of the change in management and the lies they tell or the blackmail involved in charging people for dogs that have been picked up and fostered JUST because they called the damned rescue in the first place.

            i've got stories that will make you blow your coat!  but .... this is about piper.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:38:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  but at least it wasn't one of those liars (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              whaddaya

              everyone knows the dog is safe. That's the worst, when your dog gets out and you never find out.  Doers of good works can have quirks.   Does the good outweigh the bad?  The dogs probably would think so.

              plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

              by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:48:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  anna shane, sanderbeck knew within twenty four (0+ / 0-)

                hours when veronica and multiple people looking for piper contacted her and told her piper was covatch's sheltie.

                NO one can explain her refusal to return piper except for her anti-breeder sentiments (or the dog's high value).  NO one can explain of justify why she is holding this dog hostage - she had the microchip number and contact information yet she is, for all legal and practical purposes, stealing this dog!

                there is no sense in this - she is damaging the legitimate rescue organizations that work to return lost pups to their owners by her actions.

                funding will be harder and all rescues are harmed by her behavior.

                her own website USED to state that cosr made ever effort to return lost pets, listed how to find one, listed their own contact phone number - yet, when sanderbeck has all the contact information and has even BEEN contacted  by the owner, she is refusing to return her.  her claim is that when the shelter released piper, the dog became HERS.

                that is in serious legal question on multiple fronts.  it appears that cosr may not be a true 502c3 due to lapse in following irs rules (for years) that would have the status revoked.

                also, the shelter did not follow it's own legal requirements regarding a dog with id and released piper (OVER easter weekend) before the mandatory 14 day hold was up.

                furthermore, the shelter wrote that they called the microchip number but did not get an answer and never called again - over a holiday weekend.

                something about this entire story is "off".  and the one paying the price is a beautiful little girl who misses her family along the family who miss her!

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Thu May 15, 2014 at 11:57:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Haven't been to her page (6+ / 0-)

              From the excerpt you post, it seems the six callers were not all reporting knowledge of "the" owner - each was claiming to BE the owner. If that is the case, it's easy to see why it might take more time to sort out who, exactly, has the legit claim.

              As to fees, I saw nothing on their site specifying the amounts. $450 - $800 sounds pretty extreme, though. A sheltie rescue org not far from us is more in the $300 - $350 range, depending on age.

              “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

              by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:57:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bridget was 300 (0+ / 0-)

                she she was only 7 pounds and she had no fur. I think they're all 300.

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:32:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  the friend who was sitting piper called the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FarWestGirl

                rescue immediately - she was one of those six - but sanderbeck refuses, even after getting all of the legal paperwork from the akc, etc., to return the pup.

                $450/800 is standard from some samoyed and other breed rescues - the excuse is that there are "expenses".  unfortunately, some rescues are all about grabbing dogs, "fostering" them and then flipping them for large "adoption" fees.

                sorry, i should have clarified that the number was not specifically from that rescue - the $450-800 one i personally was quoted from a breed rescue.  i am typing faster than i am proofing - i am so livid.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:31:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  that was the rescue's page - i've posted (0+ / 0-)

                links since then from the owner.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:38:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  catte nappe - the "six" who called were ALL callin (0+ / 0-)

                to tell sanderbeck that this was piper.  the family with whom she was staying, michele wilson (the co-owner) and friends.

                there were no six different claims for this dog - i've read the email exchanges.

                furthermore, covatch offered multiple forms of documented proof piper is hers - from her pedigree, her akc registration showing covatch and wilson as co-owners, and more.

                covatch even offered to pay for a dna test to prove this is the same dog (with the microchip that traces back to wilson and to her).

                i've seen other breed rescues go as high as $800 for rare breeds.  the samoyed rescue in my area starts at $450.  it depends on the rescue to set the "sale" price disguised as an adoption fee.

                there are very questionable rescues out there that race around the country to snatch up any purebred that comes available and they transport that animal out of its "lost" area, change the name of the animal (if there was one found) and try to then "sell" the animal.

                then there are the wonderful rescues that do the work of angels.  

                i want to see these scurulous ones OUT of business to allow the good and decent ones to survive.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:02:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  All our pets have been from shelters (4+ / 0-)

              Most are very good, but we jad one bad experience. We adopted an older basset hound. We had small kids and had been assured it was great with kids. It was absolutely not. It had major food issues. After it bit my 3-year-old the first week, we took it to a dog psychologist to see if he could help, and he said it was clear the dog had been very badly abused at an early age and he did not feel it would ever be safe around kids. So we called the shelter to return him, and someone else came to pick him up and left a report about him on the table that I took a peek at. He had been returned right before we adopted him by another family who had him about a week but gave him back because he kept snapping and biting their son. I insisted she note in his file he should not be with kids but was great with adults. (He was sweet with me, aside from food anxiety.) She said she would and when I checked up, they claimed he ws adopted by an older childless couple. I hope so.

              I adopted a cat from the same shelter that they said was a kitten. My vet said she was about 4 years old (just very small), and it turned out to have serious allergies that required a lot of expensive care.  We kept and cared for her, but if they had taken it to a vet as they claimed, wouldn't their vet have said how old it was? They also never told me about the allergies until I asked for records of any tests done for my own vet, who was trying to figure out what was wrong. The allergies were well documented--the cat had had to have stitches from scratching herself open and had a punch biopsy--but they never told me. As a result, she had gone without her medication until we saw she was scratching herself raw.

              The others were good, although they do seem to charge a lot to adopt an abandoned pet. I could have bought a dog for what they charge, but I do not believe in buying dogs from pet stores.

              **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

              by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:39:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  milo is good (0+ / 0-)

                they're all nutty of course, they really check you out, they don't just forget the dog after you get it. There are home visits. You have to sign something that says you'll never tie it up in front of a store, and you'll keep their ID on it, so if it does run off, they'll get it back and then find a better home.  I promised, but, I took it off.  Anyway, Bridget was so glad to have a permanent home, she never went anywhere. Once I shut her in the back yard by accident, and she wouldn't go out again unless I was with her.    

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:45:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Heh - "wouldn't the vet have said" (6+ / 0-)

                Many years ago we had a cat who had an unexpected litter of one. Unlike short-haired mom the kitten's fur was all long and curly. The vet said it was a boy cat. A few months later we had to move, and my mom said since it was a male cat we would have it go with us, and arranged for the vet to board, and then ship the cat by air after we reached our destination by car. We went to the vet at the new community to collect our cat and learned "he" was actually a female.

                “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

                by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:04:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  They don't SELL them...you need to stop saying (6+ / 0-)

              that. it's an adoption fee so they can continue to rescue and foster and provide medical treatment and shelter and food. Its massively expensive, and I know of NO rescue group that is rich or even has fifty cents to spare. They are drowning in debt.

              I adopted all my various pets from rescue groups. All of them. I know what those folks deal with. what they see. how horrible and cruel people are and can be and subject animals too. You need thick skin to do it. I can't. I Just donate.

              You are using this circumstance to blast all rescue groups with some truly ugly insults and stories and it breaks my heart. Some of pets would be dead without being rescued, one bunny would have been someone's dinner. So please stop smearing the only saviors and angels these unwanted sentient beings ever had.

              And though the rescue group should give back Piper, you keep making them out to be a scam. THEY ARE NOT.

              The block story you posted makes them sound legit, and you are so angry you are not reading the story. They did NOT call to let her know who the owner was....six different people wanted that dog pretending it was theirs. Period.

              •  The dog was chipped. (7+ / 0-)

                Seems pretty simple to figure out who the owner is with a chip and AKC papers.

                I don't have a beef with legit rescues but I've met WAY too many people running rescues who are flat-out insane.  I've dealt primarily with horse rescues and probably 9 out of 10 are run by crazy people.  

                I called four breed rescues before I got my last dog.  All 4 wanted more money for a dog than the registered pup I was looking at AND they wanted my SS#.  At that I draw the line.  Sorry very much but I am not giving out my social security number to adopt a friggen dog, to some crazy person I have never met.

                So back to the breeder I went to get a registered pup.  No hidden health issues, no hidden behavior issues, etc.

                While I have all the respect and admiration in the world for legit rescues, if they do not set up some type of regulatory/standards board on their own, they will be painted with the same brush as the loonies and scammers.

                Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

                by Miss Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:24:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Horse people do seem to be a special brand (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  edrie, Ahianne

                  of crazy. I used to read the Fugly Horse of the Day blog (and she had her own issues as well) and some of those horse rescues she wrote about were mind-boggling. They might have been fundraising scams, but they certainly weren't selling stolen horses for a profit. There is no profit in that. Mostly they were over their heads and their rescues were starving and sick.

                  SSN to adopt a pet? Insane.

                  Rescues over a certain size should really have some sort of licensing standard.

                  •  Ha! (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edrie, FarWestGirl, badscience, Ahianne

                    I was an initial member of the Fugly Horse blog.  Loved it and yep, she had a few issues.  I knew her well back in the day but she exposed a lot of crazies and for that I was sad when that blog folded up.  

                    Too many horse "rescues" are just owned by horse hoarders.  They don't have a friggen clue how to care for or market the animals they end up with.

                    Further, you can't save them all and that seems to be very hard for lots of rescues to grasp.  Heart-wrenching, yes, but some animals, particularly severely sick/injured/old, should just be put down to save the liimited resources for animals that actually have a chance to have a full life.

                    Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

                    by Miss Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:01:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i rescued one horse - once. bought him as a 4 1/2 (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Piren, Miss Blue, badscience

                      yr old to keep him from going as a school horse.  he was 15.2 hands and had the feet of a 12h pony - his navicular bones were deformed so he had to be trimmed every 4 and a half weeks or he went dead lame - trim him and he stayed sound.

                      i kept him for 2 1/2 years until i found the right home for him - cost me a bloody fortune.  i learned. the hard way.

                      rescuing horses isn't for the faint of purse!

                      my two (now one, since nimbus crossed that rainbow) is difficult enough to keep up with!

                      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:04:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I have to correct you on something (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                edrie, FarWestGirl, Ahianne, Catte Nappe

                I cannot cut and paste on my tablet, so I cannot repost the link, but I did post it elsewhere in this thread.

                If you Google puppy mill, rescue, and scam, you will find a BBC story from 2013 (and other stories) that alleges many pet rescues in the US and Ireland are not actually legitimate, they do sell dogs for profit, and they even run puppy mills using the rescue as a cover to sell them online.

                According to the article, the International Fund for Welfare found that more than 60% of dogs being offered at 11 sites on line were from puppy mills and most were being offered by breeders claiming to be rescues. So, although some rescues are legitimate, a lot of them truly are not. The ones that are not do this for profit. And they are breeding dogs to pass off as rescues.

                I have no idea what kind of business this Ohio woman runs, but some here have suggested she has not even filed the right paperwork for several years.

                **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

                by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:09:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  christin - that "adoption" fee is non-negotiable. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FarWestGirl, denise b

                i posted about the rescue that forced the couple who found and fostered a dog to "pay" the adoption fee - that, to me, is "selling" - marketing - no matter how you look at it.  i know you are defending rescues but what you need to realize is that there are "rescues" out there that snatch up any purebred dog before the legitimate ones can get to them then sell them.  they don't do care, they don't have expenses, the flip dogs for money under the guise of a 501c3.

                your facts are inaccurate. the director of that "rescue" was notified by the woman who was caring for the dog while veronica was out of town - she and veronica notified penny sanderbeck that the dog belonged to veronica - they provided overwhelming proof of the ownership and yet, sanderbeck won't return veronica's phone calls and had her lawyer call her instead.  

                i have repeatedly said that there are legitimate rescues - what i AM blasting is this particular one and others that are not legitimate in their handling of lost pets.

                you haven't read all of my comments or you would have seen that.  since i assume you've not been reading the entire list of comments, let me share with you straight from the owner what she posted about half an hour ago on the original post:

                Veronica Wagner Covatch
                To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

                23 mins · Like · 5
                there is a very specific reason i did this diary - that is this:  sunlight will keep this dog from disappearing - enough pressure will ensure that piper is returned to her owner.  the rescue director, penny sanderbeck has shown nothing but bad faith from the beginning - from her excuse for not returning the dog that she KNEW belonged to veronica (people called vets so she knew the dog would go to a better home) to her refusal to meet or return the dog all show bad faith.

                exposure is the only way to force this into the open, otherwise, veronica is at risk of losing the pup she raised from birth - the puppy she loves!  

                can you better explain the behavior of sanderbeck - who is refusing to return piper to her owner?  i can't.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:01:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  christin - you were lucky to deal with some good (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FarWestGirl

                ones.  i know the horror stories, too.  i've rescued.  i've actually stolen dogs that were abused - twice.  and i placed them in loving homes.

                so, don't think i don't know what i'm talking about.

                "rescue" has changed over the last ten years - it is a very big "business" and an ego trip for SOME out there - not all - SOME are very good, caring, run by loving people who stand up for the dogs.

                this time, it is not that circumstance.

                please tell me why, when presented with concrete proof of the dog's owner and the circumstance under which piper got out (the father of the friend who was dog sitting had a heart attack) - WHY then wouldn't this rescue organization, specifically penny sanderbeck, do the right thing and return this loved and well-cared for pet.

                that is the question that begs an answer.  nothing else is really relevant here, is it.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:43:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Some do. And some are total scammers. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
                ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

                by FarWestGirl on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 12:32:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Central Illinois Sheltie Rescue is not reputable (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie, FarWestGirl

              Two years ago Penny, the owner of this bz tried to obtain possession of a dog lawfully owned by me based upon false pretenses from another individual that she was the lawful owner, and upon finding out that I was the owner believed this person's allegations that I did not want the dog which was also untrue. She never contacted me to confirm any of the facts this person told her.  Penny in her FB claims that the dog didn t deserve going back to the breeder because she had been in three homes in a year. The dog was a show dog and it is customary for them to move between homes/co owners, etc.  Many shelter dogs dont fit in the first home they are rehomed to as well.  I have been told that there are other breeder's dog that this woman has pulled from the sheltie that were breeders dogs and they "disappeared" as well.  

              This organization is not affiliated with the parent club of the American Shetland Sheepdog Association. That organization requires that the breeder take ultimate responsibility fo hte dog for its lifetime, including at the very least the costs for rehoming it.

              If you go up on their website you will see pitures of the quality of dogs that usually come to rescue. There is no way that Penny did not know that this dog was a cut above "rescue" enough for her at the very leat to pursue the mirochip further.

            •  I tried to adopt a scottie (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie

              from a Tulsa shelter and they wanted $650. I can buy a puppy for $300. I wanted to adopt an older dog and give her a good home in  her last years.

              If I wasn't Bob Dylan, I'd probably think that Bob Dylan has a lot of answers myself. Bob Dylan

              by weezilgirl on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:50:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I usually agree with you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            whaddaya, Piren

            and you always have a loving position.  I am doggy and I also sort of think they should have tried a lot harder.  

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:50:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Anna They HAVE BEEN TRYING!!!! (6+ / 0-)

              I know of the owners because a family member is a member of the American Shetland Sheepdog Association, this has been big news in the Sheltie world.  The dog was microchiped licensed and a beloved family member.

              The dog was being cared for in Ohio while the owner was attending the Sheltie Nationals in St. Louis and as some dogs do jumped the backyard fence, leading to it getting picked up by the local shelter.

              •  well, okay (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                noreaster88, Christin, Piren

                but the rescue lady is stubborn, she thinks the dog should have been prevented from escaping, and could have been picked up by nefarious characters other than her, and she saved it, and she's not trusting those people.  Still, it was in the shelter three days? Didn't her friends tell her the dog got out?

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:15:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i found one dog over a holiday - the shelters (4+ / 0-)

                  were closed.  i kept the pup and immediately notified them the moment they opened - within an hour, i got a call from the parents of the pup - an elderly couple - the woman was shaking so hard when they came to pick up their dog and her husband sat in the car blowing the horn as hard as he could when he saw the boy.

                  don't judge.  you don't know the whole story.  ever.

                  until it happens to you, you won't understand.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:37:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am not judging the original owners (0+ / 0-)

                    they are judging the nutty rescue lady for not respecting their rights.  This isn't one side good and the other bad. This is just not on the same page.

                    If they want their dog, they could start by thanking her, and being sorry they left it with someone who wasn't responsible, and see it from her point of view.  She's doing a tough job, she's trying to save some dogs. Give her a break?

                    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                    by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:31:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  just read on the owner's post from one of her (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cuseology

            friends that she is a stay at home mom who has been with this pup since her birth -

            what gets me is that the woman who runs this rescue is incapable of admitting she is wrong and is stealing a dog from someone who loves her very much!

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:28:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  The owner is apparently a professional breeder, (0+ / 0-)

            and for some of the nutcases, all breeders are irresponsible, money-grubbing assholes and that status alone 'means' that they shouldn't have the animals that they breed. I'm betting that's at least part of the rationale behind not giving the dog back to her owners.

            Not all dog breeders run puppy mills, many (if admittedly not most) are responsible, but the nutcases will hyperbolize and hyperventilate and throw babies & bathwater as far as they can to protect their fundraising scams and their hero complexes.

            This has gotten to the level of RICO violations, animals are being stolen, hidden and transported across state lines, with $$'s being begged, extorted and scammed out of generous, caring people along the way. It's fraud and grifting, taking advantage of kindhearted people who just genuinely want to help animals and don't have the time or experience to check out the situation and find the truth.

            Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
            ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

            by FarWestGirl on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 12:25:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That is a hugely disturbing viewpoint (9+ / 0-)

          Was waiting for the snark tag but saw none.

          •  maybe (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            whaddaya, Christin, hnichols, Piren

            I was thinking from the dog. If the dog is alive and well, isn't that a relief, even if the owners lost custody, they know their dog is well?  This could have had a much worse ending.

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:49:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's better than the dog being dead, sure. (15+ / 0-)

              But these people have both a legal and a moral right to their dog.  If someone's child was kidnapped, it's no solution to say "hey, at least your kid is with a loving family!"

              •  a lot better (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hnichols

                and no one knew if the owners would ever show, and seems lying non-owners might have gotten there and then fled.  The rescue lady did the right thing.  And people like that who rescue dogs are often very prickly about who should have a dog, and don't want dogs left with people who don't make sure they're safe.

                She's not a bad person, she's a great person with far more interest in dogs than in people. She doesn't care about the owners pain, she wants the dog safe.

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:10:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you are so very very wrong. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CatM, Miss Blue

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:39:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  If she is such a great person (8+ / 0-)

                  With only the dog's best interests at heart, she should get past her anger and return the dog to the family that raised and loves it.

                  Animals have feelings, and my dog gets upset if I am gone even overnight, even if I have someone stay with her. I cannot imagine if she were away from us for many days. And when she was younger, she did get out despite our best efforts (including an 8-foot fence). She was adventurous. But we would go look for her right away or she would come back a few hours later on her own.

                  We also pet sat a friend's dog, and it sat by the door for two days, wondering why she had not come back.

                  Clearly, dogs have a sense of what home is and love their people, too.

                  If these people have proof they own the Sheltie, and it sounds like they have a lot of proof and care about the dog enough to have it microchipped, taken to the vet regularly, and left in a friend's home while away instead of a kennel, then the woman you say is a great person is emotionally abusing the dog by not returning it to its owners. She is putting it at risk of depression, behavioral problems, and stress.

                  How is what she is doing thinking of the dog? She is only thinking of herself and her indignation at what she considers are rude emails telling her to give the dog back.

                  How hard would it be for her to say, "We have every intention of returning the dog to its rightful owners as soon as we have verified their identity to make sure the dog is safe." Instead, she makes a post about how people said mean things and now she is never giving the dog back.

                  That is NOT thinking about the dog. I do not see how you can defend her. But then again, you are the one who said they have money and could just buy another purebred dog.

                  **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

                  by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:52:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  i am sorry - even though you are in my diary (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              anna shane

              some of your comments i just cannot rec.

              this is one.

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:38:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  it's okay (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hnichols

                I don't care so much about owners either, just pets.  You have empathy for them, I understand.

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:46:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  please read this by piper's owner (0+ / 0-)
                  Veronica Wagner Covatch

                  To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

                  23 mins · Like · 5

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:12:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You are forgetting that dogs are just (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  edrie, asym

                  as attached to us, as we are to them.

            •  Losing custody of your dog (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie

              is a nightmare. No way to sugarcoat that.

        •  um, anna, piper IS in some "mean person's house" (12+ / 0-)

          she is being held by a nutcase who thinks that being a "rescue" director makes her god.

          purebred dogs are just as loved as mutts - and show dogs are loved to pieces.  a GOOD "show dog" does NOT do well if mistreated - these are loved and pampered pooches who are part of keeping a breed healthy and true to the nature of the breed.

          this dog was BRED by the owner - from conception to birth to this very day, loved and missed and treasured beyond any comprehension you show with your post.

          i've had purebreds and mutts for my whole life - it is inconceiveable that you would write this type of post.  

          furthermore, there IS no "new owner" - the dog was taken from the shelter three days after she was picked up and then placed into "foster" - not a "new home". the rightful owner contacted them the day after they took the dog from the shelter - they were LOOKING for their dog!

          you need to learn a bit more about the love between creatures... papered or not, your assumptions that an owner of a purebred doesn't love that dog is stunning!

          i've had purebred samoyeds for over 40 years - i love the nature of the breed - and out of those 40+ years, all but three were adopted because the people who bought the "pretty white fluffy pup" had no idea what they were getting into.  i did and still do and LOVE that wolf independence in them.  

          but, that said, it is not up to YOU to decide if someone wants a specific breed or why - you can only do that for yourself... not for me - not for anyone else.

          and NO one has the right to steal a dog that is loved and cared for!  

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:33:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I missed that part (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            whaddaya

            but I do know some real rescue people who won't give your dog back.  Milo makes you sign a statement that you'll keep the Milo tag on the dog, so if it gets out, they'll get it back, not you. There are surely dog owners who think that if your dog out, you're a bad owner.  

            I love my dogs, for sure, but this was a puppy, and if someone loved it, well.  

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:46:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  when a storm blew down in the middle of (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              misslegalbeagle, anna shane, whaddaya

              the night, ALL of my dogs got out - someone caught jesse and tried to steal him.  it took me a week to get him back... staying home from work and searching all night - sleeping in the car... but i got him BACK.

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:53:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know, that's bad (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                noreaster88

                but it's not this story, this dog got out and the lady found it in the shelter.  And you were heroic, you didn't wait three days, you stayed hot on the trail.  That's admirable.  Your dogs are lucky.  

                (I'll tell Little Bridget and Young Jack that story tonight, before bed time. Jack's favorite movie is 8 below.)

                plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:13:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  are you even reading the posts here? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Miss Blue, Cuseology

                  one of the commenters actually knows this family - you are way off base and very judgemental.  i am not trying to be harsh here, but you do not know the circumstances - even when this situation has been fully shared - via my links to the owner's facebook page to the comments by others who are familiar with this.

                  not all rescues are bad BUT not ALL rescues are "good", either. this is a case where the director of this particular rescue already has a reputation for making dogs "disappear" - dogs whose owners are trying desperately to find their dogs.  this time, she got caught.

                  please don't defend the indefensible.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:42:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  And Shelties are notorious for running when scared (7+ / 0-)

                I can see it totally.  Herding breeds are noise sensitive.  My dear departed Raleigh would freak out whenever a thunderstorm approached or  fireworks were set off.  I had to be careful with him in the summer time.

                •  yes (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Piren

                  the caregivers ought to have done a better job, the pooch was probably very scared.  

                  Little Bridget was in a shelter 6 months before Milo picked her up and she was in foster care another six months before she moved in with me.  It wasn't nice for her, she was very thin and her fur was sparse, and she ate bugs off the street, and she kept her tail down and her hopes to herself.

                  Jack used to chew on these chicken/rawhide treats but he'd just eat the chicken, he'd never been deprived and somehow I hadn't thrown them out, they were mixed in with his toys.  And once I didn't know where Bridget had gone, so I looked around and she was in the living room and she had all his old chews, maybe 30 of them, and she'd placed them in different positions on the carpet, and she was running between them, and moving them.  And she looked at me with fear, so I left her with them, and a few minutes later she'd gathered them all in a pile in some corner. She'd never had her own chew before.

                  Now she's chubby and she has fur and she won't finish her dinner if it isn't good enough. Whew.  The shelter wasn't fun for her, the big dogs got the food, she'd eat leftover crumbs.

                  plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                  by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:22:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Well, they sound like fundamentalist lunatics to (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miss Blue, edrie, FarWestGirl

              me.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:11:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  AR fanatics - some rescues also will (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FarWestGirl

                immediately spay or neuter purebreds because they don't believe in "breeding" - for those who raise and care for specific breeds and spend the time, funds and care to perpetuate a breed, having one of these types of rescues get hold of a pup that was stolen or escaped is a disaster.

                ingrid kirkwood - AR fanatic supreme - spends peta funds to support ALF (animal liberation front) that has NO problem firebombing research facilities where humans are at risk.

                yep. fanatics of any kind are crazy!

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:07:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Milo... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie

              would never get my money.  They sound like loons.  

              Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

              by Miss Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:30:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  A dog isn't a thing. We're attached to them— (13+ / 0-)

          they're like members of our family.  It's so incredibly cold to just say "oh well, they can get another one."  I can no sooner just go out and replace my dog than I could go and replace my husband.

        •  WTF??? Sure, your child was kidnapped. (9+ / 0-)

          Its no problem, just have another to replace that one.

          What difference does pedigreed (no animal is "pure" bred) vs mixed make? People want pedigreed animals because their personalities are more certain, the health problems can be tracked and it is probably registered with a registering agency (AKC, CFA, GCCF, etc.).  

          If you have raised a puppy and have taken care of it, it is your child. It may have 4 legs, but it is your baby. How cruel of you to even think it can just be dismissed as if it never existed.

          You obviously have never read the pootie diaries here at Daily Kos. You are ...... if I say what I really feel, I'll probably be banned. You are disgusting.

          I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

          by woolibaar on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:01:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  WTF????? No you don't understand (9+ / 0-)

          Genetics dictate a dog's characteristics, so hell yeah there's a difference between various dogs based upon parentage.  This dog was very well loved and cared for.  The dog's legitimate owners have spent a lot of money and time trying to get the dog back.

        •  What???! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          edrie, FarWestGirl

          You don't think the real owners love the dog?  They should just get over it and get another?  What kind of fucking answer is that?

          Sorry you don't "get" the purebred thing.  Some of us prefer to have a known pedigree and we pay dearly for it.  So no, it isn't the same.  

          These real owners have had their dog stolen, pure and simple.  

          Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

          by Miss Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:14:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i never said that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hnichols, Piren

            they don't think the lady saving dogs has any point, and recognize that she doesn't know them, and has met people before who claimed to be responsible.

            You don't get into a fight with someone who saved your dog. You don't demand a dog back as if it's property if you want a doggy person to trust you.

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:35:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Tough shit (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie, justsayjoe, terrybuck, Ahianne

              Frankly, in WI, as fucked up as this place is, if you have ownership papers, ie registration papers, you can go to the rescue with the cops and get your dog back, period.

              This is total bullshit.  The dog IS property whether you seem to think so or not.  If you have proof of ownership, you have every right to go get your dog.

              That rescue nut should be very, very, VERY glad that I am not the original owner of that dog.

              Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

              by Miss Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:41:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  me, too. i woke up the woman trying to steal (4+ / 0-)

                jesse. when the storm blew down the fence overnight - he hopped in her car the next am and said "take me home, please".  instead, she locked him in a trailer behind her house and he barked non-stop. that's how i found him - i could hear him but when i called he stopped barking - then i stopped calling and he barked.  at 5am, i had been in the car in 32 degree weather all night in that area hoping to spot him until daybreak when i started leafleting the neighborhood with 1500 flyers.  a woman coming out in her nightdress to collect the paper told me she knew where he was - that he was in her neighbor's backyard - and the neighbor worked nights and was home now.

                i kept pounding her door til she opened it and said, "you have my dog!"  SHE said, "i really LIKE him" - i replied "I LOVE him and i want him back NOW!"

                she took one look at my face and eyes and immediately brought the contrite boy back to me.

                i would have walked THROUGH her and her fence to get him back - and she knew it.

                this is one of the reasons i am posting this diary - sanderbeck has removed all traces and comments from the central ohio sheltie rescue - so she is feeling the pressure - let's keep it on til veronica gets her girl back!

                the big fear is that the rescue will try to spay her first.  some of the rescues are "anti breeder" and will deliberately spay or neuter show dogs.  that is one of the reasons all the vets in the area were notified!

                penny sanderbeck needs to be removed from that rescue organization (i don't care if she founded it!) or that rescue should never be given another shelter dog.  other more reputable rescues are available to take in the shelties - those that are affiliated with ASSA (american shetland sheepdog association) - central ohio sheltie rescue isn't one of those.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:40:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  stealing isn't rescuing (0+ / 0-)

                  this isn't that clear. But, wow you were great, I am very glad it worked.

                  plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                  by anna shane on Tue Apr 29, 2014 at 10:08:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  thank you. there is much more that i would (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    anna shane

                    love to say on this right now but there are now negotiations to get piper back to her owner so i am holding off making further comments.

                    anna, what i will say is that the shelter had the microchip number WITH a phone number attached to locate the owner.  they called on easter sunday and never called on monday, the first work day - instead, they turned the dog over to sanderbeck WITH that number recorded on the papers she received.  she also never contacted the vet, who would have immediately given her the owner information.

                    that is where the questionable legal issues arise.

                    ohio state law regarding animal wardens and holds state that without id, the hold time is only 3 days.  this dog had ID - the shelter in question microchiped the animals they adopt and DID scan this particular dog, read the chip, got the phone number relevant to verifying the status (ohio law says that the dog must be registered in the county where it lives - in this case, that is pennsylvania, where she was licensed and registered).

                    too many people did the wrong thing - but when they found out that the owner had been searching and DID find her the day after she was turned over (easter weekend), they contacted the rescue with all the necessary proof of ownership.

                    one further bit not in the body of the diary - the family sitting the dog was looking in the county where they lived.  piper ended up in another county - no one knows how she got there - if someone picked her up and moved her - did she escape from a good hearted person who saw her at risk and then end up far from where she had been staying?  all possibilities.

                    the problem here is that the shelter was negligent by not following their own state laws about determining the registration of the dog and not calling the microchip number listed on a business day - instead releasing the dog to a rescue organization.

                    the rescue organization was negligent in not following through on that chip - and, at worse, was morally and, most likely, legally, wrong for not returning the dog to its rightful owner when she came forward.

                    this  has been handled all around in a harmful manner to all GOOD rescues who make it a priority to get lost dogs back to those who love them.

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Tue Apr 29, 2014 at 12:53:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Custody battle? (0+ / 0-)

          Only one party has a rightful claim to custody. The rescue person has no right to keep the dog, period. She has no right to keep any animal if the owner claims it. Whether her motives are good or bad is irrelevant.

    •  who would do otherwise? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peacestpete, palantir, edrie, whaddaya

      Pam Bondi the Attorney General of Florida

    •  Didn't Piper Have A Collar & ID Tag with a Tel#? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      If she did & the shelter never contacted you, that's illegal! Hire a lawyer & sue them along with the Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue. When it starts costing groups like that money to misappropriate someone's pet, that bullshit will stop.

      Both my cats have have id chips but I also keep collars on them, just in case. (And they're indoor-only kitties.) The average Joe who finds a lost pet has no way of knowing if they've got a chip inside them. But anyone can see a collar with a phone# on the tag. I saw that PBS story too on the Katrina dogs & it made me cry.

       

  •  ? (8+ / 0-)
    "sell" that dog for a hefty "adoption" fee (which, btw, is illegal under the terms of the 501(c)3's they operate within).
    There's nothing inherent in 501(c)3 status that prevents charging a fee - hefty or not.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:11:29 PM PDT

    •  non profit rescues can ask for a "donation" - (7+ / 0-)

      they cannot retail the dogs.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:23:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They are not limited to asking for donations (9+ / 0-)

        Fees for service, and even outright "sales" are well within legal limits. Girl Scouts don't ask for a donation - they sell you cookies. Thrift stores for non-profits sell all manner of merchandise.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:42:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  let me get back to you on this... nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          whaddaya

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:39:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  they can ask for donations and they can NOT (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lenny Flank, whaddaya, Piren

          "profit" - i think there is some reg but i am digging - not finding right now but i DID find an interesting link i have to follow up with  - that they are REQUIRED to scan for microchips if they handle more than 27 dogs per year....

          i've got some heavy lifting to do on this organization - so please forgive me if it takes a bit of time to get back to you...

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:55:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you are mistaken (9+ / 0-)

            Any 501(c)3 can "profit" as much as they want. They are free to sell whatever they want, at whatever price they want, as a way of raising money. What they CANNOT do is distribute any "profits" for anyone's personal gain--they are required to roll the "profits" back into the organization's budget. In exchange for that, those profits go untaxed.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:01:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And the 'bookkeeping' in a lot of those is a joke- (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ahianne

              I've combed through a bunch of 'rescue' organizations' 990 forms and they don't have to break out or substantiate any of their 'expenses'. They're not overseen worth spit by the states, so the scams roll on.

              Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
              ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

              by FarWestGirl on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 12:49:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Very common misunderstanding (8+ / 0-)

            "Not for profit" does not mean they can't make a profit, only that they don't pass that profit to shareholders.

            As an example, take a thrift store that accepts donated furniture to support an organization for victims of domestic violence.  Of course, the initial cost of the furniture to them is $0.  So, a table comes in, it's in good condition and need no referbing, and they sell it for $150. Voila clear "profit" of $150!  

            However, that "profit" gets plowed into the funds that are needed to pay rent on the storefront where they operate their store, the wages of the woman who works there running it, the costs of repair and reupholstery of the items that do need that, the phone line, etc. And, with luck, there just might be enough "profit" left over to help with the costs of their other support and counseling services.

            “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

            by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:12:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  you are mistaken (12+ / 0-)

        Back when I did reptile rescue (with a 501(c)3 organization) I also charged adoption fees (typically about half what one would pay for that species in a pet store). There were several reasons for this: 1. it helped meet the expenses of caring for the animals under my care, 2. it prevented people from adopting animals on spur of the moment only to bring them back later (the fee was nonrefundable), and 3. it prevented people from adopting animals they did not have the financial resources to care for (to reinforce this, I required adoptees to provide me a photo of the complete setup they had for the animal).

        There is nothing in any 501(c)3 regulations which prevent anyone from charging adoption fees, or even selling animals and/or equipment or supplies--there's not even any regulation that prevents 501(c)3's from paying salaries to their employees. What 501(c)3 regs DO prevent is using "profits" for personal expenses--the "profits" all go back into the organization's budget, and in exchange those profits are exempt from taxes.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:05:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  So privatization has come to this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      edrie, whaddaya
      •  Umm, don't think so (4+ / 0-)

        This issue has nothing to do with "privatization".

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:31:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it does, to some degree. some of the shelters (7+ / 0-)

          have a high turnover of purebreds - they go out the door to the rescues who ship them all over the friggin' country before the owners even have a chance to find them.

          this particular situation was where the dog was being puppy sat and got out.  she was chipped, it was registered - the shelter SHOULD have scanned the dog - the rescue did and claimed that the chip wasn't "registered" EVEN after the owner produced the paperwork showing the chip WAS traceable and listed!

          shelters don't have funds - the wait periods are far too short for owners to retrieve their lost or stolen pets.

          i've personally saved a dog who was running the streets - caught him - took  him to the shelter for scanning and found his owner.  the shelter said he'd gotten "out" several times.  i kept him until i could meet with the owners (who were out of town and had a pet sitter).  it seems the pup got "out" with help from the neighbors who hated the dog - they cut a hole in the fence, took the dog and drove him over 30 miles away to dump him the last time.  when i brought him home, the woman (neighbor) slimed up to my car and said i should KEEP the dog because the owners were very bad.  

          i met them.  you know what the problem was?  they were from india and the neigbors were friggin' bigots!  the woman was a doctor at stanford hospital!!!  i called the neighbor over and told her i had reported the incident to the shelter AND if that dog EVER went missing again, she would be getting a visit from the police!!!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:03:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No sorry. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin, Catte Nappe, henlesloop, edrie, Piren
            have a high turnover of purebreds - they go out the door to the rescues who ship them all over the friggin' country before the owners even have a chance to find them.
            Some regions and some states see a lot of their shelter dogs -- especially certain purebred dogs -- get transported to other parts of the country, and even Canada.

            And yes, the South and much of California are those who export shelter dogs.

            But here's the thing. There are areas where dogs are welcome in apartments (even multiple dogs), in restaurants, where there are excellent trainers everywhere you turn, and they are quite affordable.

            These are communities where many people own dogs and where it's easy to adopt a rescue, even one with issues.

            These are also areas that have long-established spay/neuter laws. The average owner doesn't breed his pet by accident or just because he wants a puppy.

            So dogs are imported from less responsible areas into more responsible areas.

            When I lived in the PNW, it was nice that we could help, but at the same time, it infuriated me that California in particular was just turfing its excess dog problem to us.

            I supported two reputable rescues and we got dogs by the plane full.

            I still support these rescues, by the way. As a Californian, I'm just embarrassed, though. And I work with our local rescues to hopefully decrease the rate at which we unload our problems on others.

            Don't blame rescues in general for the irresponsible behavior of citizens.

            This case is an aberration.  

            (And I know East Indians -from India-- who own multiple dogs. I think you need to be careful about tossing around "bigot" comments. A lot of people don't like dogs. It has little to do with country of origin.)

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:43:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is true. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Christin, Catte Nappe, edrie

              I have really mixed feelings about it.

              I have two "local" shelters in my area. One is a no-kill shelter. It will only accept adoptable pets because it doesn't want to lose its "no kill" status. So a lot of animals are turned away. They import adoptable animals from other states, and those animals will be adopted, so that is a net positive, but what about the animals that just aren't adoptable and get turned away?

              Well, they go to the other shelter which is not a no-kill shelter. They will take care of the problem animals; if they are not adoptable (as in feral cats) and a feral group doesn't step in, well, those cats are euthed. Such is life.

              This will continue to be a problem forever. People lose their jobs, or get ill, and have to give up a pet. Those are the heartbreakers. But more often they lose interest, or have a baby, or move, or let their animals roam and simply don't care. They don't spay or neuter, and they dump their pregnant pets and/or their puppies/kittens.

              It disgusts me.

              There is a role for rescues to play, and rescues are generally breed and/or animal specific. I actually appreciate pure-bred rescues, because then there is NO EXCUSE for anyone to buy from a pet store or breeder. And I think most pet breeding and showing is absurd. I know people derive great pleasure from showing animals, but it doesn't do it for me. And most people with "purebreds" got them from shitty back yard breeders or puppy mills.

              •  okay - i tipped you for most of your comment but (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lenny Flank, FarWestGirl, elmo

                we have a serious area of disagreement.  i have friends who breed dogs - responsible breeders...  not puppy mills or pet shops.

                for those of us who love specific breed types - whether it be samoyeds or vizslas or basset hounds or chihuahuas, RESPONSIBLE breeders work to protect the breed type - to ensure that the bloodlines are healthy, disease free, predictable.

                for people who have allergies, there are dogs that don't provoke allergic reactions - mixed breeds don't qualify.

                for people who want active dogs to engage in outdoor activities, some breeds don't fit that bill - others do.

                for personality - a samoyed can ALWAYS be counted on as a spare babysitter for the little ones - a terrier may not be the best choice.

                to simply say that showing is absurd means that you aren't aware of why showing has an important place.  dogs aren't "shown" to be "pretty" - the showing is to compare the dog to the standard for which the dog is judged.  a vizsla would never be judged by the same standard as a cocker spaniel or samoyed - they have different "jobs", so to speak.  sight hounds, scent hounds, toys, working - all are types of dogs that were specifically developed to do certain jobs.  to see an aussie at work is something that is beautiful to behold - just as seeing a jack russel rid a barn of rats by running INTO the walls of a barn is amazing.

                saying that purebreds come from "shitty" breeders is something that is reminiscent of puppy mills of the past.  today, purebreds are carefully crossed with the best options to improve the breed thanks to the information now available across the net - before, selecting a good match meant travelling first and hoping for a good find OR going to national shows and looking for a stud or bitch - now the screening is much easier!

                much of the hype you hear about "backyard breeders" is filtered through the AR microphone and is a distortion, if not outright lie.  the biggest and most responsible rescues out there are the breeders who take back ANY pup ANY time for ANY reason.  that is in the contract.  

                my own beloved lyublyu is "co-owned" by his breeder (and my friend) which is the ONLY reason i have him.  at my age, there is a reasonable possibility that he will outlive me - and i want to know what happens to him if anything happens to me!  that is very common with GOOD breeders, btw.

                so, be careful with generalizing - much of those generalize statements are pure H$U$ and peta propaganda.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:00:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  the reptile community had this same debate (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  edrie, Piren, badscience

                  back in the 90's, when everybody and his brother, it seemed, was breeding Burmese Pythons, in lots of different color patterns----at a time when shelters and rescues were full of unwanted Burms that had been dumped by their owners because they couldn't take care of them.

                  My view is brutally bunt----NOBODY should breed any animal as long as the shelters remain full of unwanted animals. All it does is add to the problem.

                  In the end, reality always wins.

                  by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:15:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i totally disagree. with a mixed breed dog (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lenny Flank, FarWestGirl, elmo, badscience

                    you can NOT be guaranteed of the personality traits - if you want to have a pet with a small child, you want to know what is in that mix.  

                    i know exactly what to expect with a samoyed - for my mixed breeds (and i've had many), it was always a surprise - none that i couldn't deal with, but still a surprise.

                    purebred dogs, when responsibly bred, don't have the problems that can show up in mixed breeds - IF the breeder is careful and works to minimize heart tumors or diabetes or other issues, you have a good chance to avoid those problems.

                    what i find interesting now is the bias against purebreds - something that used to be leveled at mutts.

                    to each person, there should be a choice - yours or mine - it is an individual choice.  i don't demand anyone buy/adopt a purebred but it IS my choice to select the breed i love and have shared my life with for over 44 years.  frankly, i cannot imagine my life without a sammy smile - without those smiles, i would have been outta here decades ago.

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 09:33:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you miss my point (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      badscience

                      It has zip-all to do with purebreds or mutts or not.

                      There is no point to breeding more of ANY animal as long as there are zillions of that animal already in shelters awaiting homes. All breeding more of them does, is add to the problem.

                      In the end, reality always wins.

                      by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 10:36:35 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  wrong again. lenny - one very specific (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Lenny Flank

                        reason is for service dogs.  

                        knowing the temperament and characteristics of any breed also insures better and more likelihood of successful pairings.

                        i would NOT want an over exhuberent terrier mix as a guide dog for the blind.

                        different breeds have specific characteristics and traits that are passed down through genetic breeding for those traits.  a mixed breed (or loveable mutts like many who have shared my life) are not easily predictable in specific situations.

                        i'm tired - this is a discussion for a different day - one i'm looking forward to continuing - combatting the h$u$ and peta lies is a frustrating job that i willingly undertake to clear up these common mistaken beliefs.

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 02:32:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  again, you miss my point . . . (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          edrie

                          Thius has nothing whatever to do with breeds or their characteristics.  It is a simple numbers argument---when we already have X number of unwanted dogs (of whichever particular breed) languishing in shelters because nobody wants them, what's the point to breeding yet more of them?

                          combatting the h$u$ and peta lies is a frustrating job
                          I'm no friend of HSUS or PETA, and vice versa. Their stated policy was (and still is, as far as I know) to outlaw the possession of ANY "exotic pet"--by which they mean basically anything other than dogs or cats.

                          In the end, reality always wins.

                          by Lenny Flank on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 03:18:41 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  lenny - i don't think we are really on (0+ / 0-)

                            opposite sides here - i'm for adopting out every single dog that needs a family to love them - every single one.

                            by the same token, i also am supporting those of us who love specific breeds.

                            at one point, i had seven and 1/4 dogs - out of that lot - all but TWO were purebred rescues - i've  had many mixed and never turned away from a set of four paws in need.

                            the reason i had 7 1/4 dogs (a white wolf shepherd, 4 sammies, a dobie/lab cross, a german shepherd and a papillon - she was the 1/4) - and i've had wonderful crosses since then - all because other people were irresponsible and couldn't or wouldn't handle the unique personalities of those dogs.

                            i support rescue operations, i support breed adoptions, i support breeders.

                            every person should have the choice to fill that hole in their lives (or holes) with the dog of their choice - i just wish more people would honor that commitment for the life of their choice.

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 09:45:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  I don't disagree that there is a place for (0+ / 0-)

                  purebred animals.

                  However, I do believe that most people get their "purebred" dogs from shitty backyard breeders and puppy mills.

                  "Most people" are the folks you see on Judge Judy and the people's court with their sick mini-chihuahua that they bought at the pet store and it is sick; they are trying to get their money back. Or they bought it on the internet, it is sick and they are trying to get their money back. Or they bought it from a local "breeder," it is sick and they are trying to get their money back.

                  Every week these cases are on court shows. You know that IRL there are hundreds of people buying questionable purebred dogs off the internet of from their friends' friends' from work, or from petshops at the malls.

                  They see a Disney movie or they see a celebrity's purse dog or whatever, and they must have that breed. They go looking for an affordable puppy at the pet shop or on the internet or whatever. If they went to a reputable breeder, they would pay thousands and would probably have to wait for a litter, because breeders generally don't have extra stock hanging around like a pet shop does.

                  Of course there are reputable breeders who spend a lot of money to care for their dogs. Those dogs are extremely expensive, and with the cost comes the security that should there be a problem with the dog, the breeder will take it back and if appropriate, refund money. Those are not the purebred dogs that "most people" get.

                  •  sick chihuahuas and judge judy are not (0+ / 0-)

                    purebred breeders - those who are the GOOD breeders are actually protecting the breed - bloodlines to prevent those "sick" chihuahuas - AND are the most active in rescuing dogs in need.

                    good breeders take back any pup for any reason at any age - the dogs are extensions of their own families and they keep in contact - keep informed and are very involved in all dogs' health and welfare.

                    the breeders on my fb friends' list don't stop at purebreds - many have mixed breeds that are part of the same family - loving a purebred doesn't preclude loving a mixed pup.  

                    i disagree with you about how many purebreds come from good breeders or from pet shops - puppy mills do still exist and so do pet shops but not with the abundance you seem to think.

                    as for waiting for a purebred - i waited a year and a half for lyublyu - because i wanted a pup out of this particular line - i've known the grandmother and followed many of the pups who are his cousins and half siblings and wanted this particular line because of the care and diligence of his breeder (my friend).  there are many people who are looking for a purebred that are willing to wait - there is a network among dog people that will screen where and when pups are coming and who to release or NOT to release a dog to - there are buyers who are as bad as breeders - and those get tagged pretty quickly.

                    as i have repeatedly said, responsible breeders enhance the health and quality of the breed - yet, peta and the AR fanatics want THESE people to be prevented from breeding their cared for pets (and, btw, show those pets to the standard - for fun and for betterment of the standard).

                    why?  because for peta, h$u$ and other groups (like SOME rescues) this is about money - big money - in donations they make preying on the emotions of people who genuinely care but are sorely uninformed.

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 09:58:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Average people get dogs that they think are (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      edrie

                      "purebreds" from people that they think are "breeders."

                      Average people are the ones involved in civil lawsuits to recover damages from the "purebreds" they got from "breeders."

                      It doesn't matter that we know the difference. Most people do not. Most people are not educated about these issues. Where you live, maybe there is greater awareness. Where I live, not so much.

                      I think that the "good breeders" are fine. There is room in the discussion to disagree about whether there need to be no breeders or many breeders or few breeders (I'd weigh in on the "few" breeders, because as long as there are purebreds in shelters, most people - average people - do NOT need a papered, showable purebred. They just do NOT.). Most people can get a good, purebred dog from a reputable shelter or rescue.

                      Of course, people want a puppy (not an adult dog) and therein lies a lot of the problem with breeding. And the attendant abandonment of adult dogs that have been purchased by people who are not in a position to train them and care for them appropriately.

                       

                      •  i weigh in on RESPONSIBLE breeders... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        badscience

                        and the purebreds in shelters are not as common as you think.  yes, there are, but usually specific breeds that become "popular" due to films (think 101 dalmations years ago and legally blonde and the chihuahuas more recently) - as well as the bully breeds (that, years ago, were the german shepherds and rotties and dobies that were bred wrongly for agressiveness).

                        try to find a vizsla or samoyed or king charles spaniel or other wonderful breeds and you'll find it harder.

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 01:21:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  And I'll say this. (0+ / 0-)

                      I wanted a Burmese cat. I love Burmese cats. I did not go to a breeder. I couldn't live with myself if I bought a cat from a breeder.

                      Instead I went to the purebred rescue that mostly gets Persians and Siamese, with the occasional other exotic breed, and waited until there were two Burmese to adopt. They get Burmese cats maybe once a year. I just waited.

                      I got cats that needed me. They needed a better diet. The female was spayed by the rescue because she hadn't been spayed (WTF?) although the male was neutered. They needed a lot of teeth pulled because of resorption. This wasn't the rescue's fault; they did emergency work and I got to do the rest. I got cats with their own personality quirks and baggage that they brought with them. They needed me.

                      I'm not showing cats. I'm not breeding cats, nor should I.  There is no reason to pay for a breeder cat and pass over the rescue cats.

                      •  badscience - there are very few samoyeds (0+ / 0-)

                        in rescue - so few that it is as hard to find one in rescue as it is from a breeder.  they are very difficult to share space with - not because of agression, rather because of their independence and shedding and intelligence and more.

                        for the last 35+ years i have adopted those who could not be "handled" (owners had no idea what they were in for) - but before i die, i wanted one more puppy - at my age, this is the last opportunity to have the beauty of a face full of puppy breath!  

                        i told my friend (the breeder) that i wanted the one that would come back three times BEFORE he went out the first time - i wanted the "mischief maker", the "trouble maker" and the special one that would only repeatedly end up in rescue so that i could make his first years happy instead of distressed.

                        THAT is what i got from my friend, the breeder.  there is always a pup that doesn't "fit" - that is my boy - and, had i not gotten him from the "breeder" - he would still have come back to her repeatedly without careful placement.  HER "careful placement" was with me because i know EXACTLY what i have gotten.

                        so, you see, there are reasons for buying from a breeder, too.  and i use the term "buy" loosely - my purchase of this pup along with the "purchase" of his other three brothers did not cover the medical costs involved in their breeding and birth and after vet care.

                        as for not showing and not breeding - few people should.  it is time consuming and lengthy and takes a huge commitment to the health and welfare of the pup.  and those that do show and breed are, for the most part, interested in improving that breed that you and i love... and they love their "show dogs" as much as you and i love our "non-show" pets!

                        there are HUGE misunderstandings about breeders - responsible breeders - and it is mostly pushed by the monied interests of the likes of h$u$ and peta.

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 01:18:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sure. I'm not making an aggressive anti-breeder (0+ / 0-)

                          argument. I think in most circumstances, what a lot of uninformed people think of as acceptable breeders and dogs really aren't.

                          There aren't that many Burmese in rescue. They aren't a well-known breed (but to know them is to love them). I am part of the Burmese rescue listserve, and they get one or two every few months. They are seldom in shelters. I feel lucky that two came my way. Even though Evil Cat can be a bit of a pain.

                          •  oh - i've also done rescue for exotics - (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            badscience

                            my favorite girl was one of the foundation for the bengal breed - a silver tabby crossed with an asian leopard cat.  she was awesome - even when she sank her teeth THROUGH my hand.  took me months to get her to come out from hiding and to allow me to touch her - and many more months to get her comfortable staying out in the open.

                            by the time she went back to my ex, she would sleep on my feet at night and sit contentedly in the chair in the open.

                            had a female kinkajou sink her teeth through my nose unexpectedly one day - reaiized she was in season and saw her reflection in my large glasses and thought i was another kinkajou.  ouch!  wish now i'd gotten a diamond - but i was a wimp and let it heal.

                            i've done wildlife rehab - had teh state call me to say one racoon was not rabid - he nipped me then died.  i've had my share of rescues... and wild life friends.

                            my best friend in long island and i used to go out and feed dog biscuits to teh little fox who would come and bark if we were late with them - and the racoons would come up and join in then steal the flashlight out of our laps.

                            that is just PART of my "rescue" life... what comes my way is my responsibility - been doing it for many decades.

                            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                            by edrie on Tue Apr 29, 2014 at 01:23:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  sadly, grover, that isn't always the case. (0+ / 0-)

              i've seen sammy rescues fighting to grab samoyeds from other states immediately - that eliminates the chance of that dog being reunited to his/her own family - sammies and northern breeds like huskies and malamutes are notorious runners and escape artists -

              and, i'm IN california - where the rescues fly sammies in from all over the country - dogs that SHOULD be reunited with their families!  i belong to a big fb sammy circle - and not just sams - this is a huge problem with the not so legit "rescues".  don't get me started - these types of "rescues" do real damage to the ones who do the responsible work..

              and, i personally have found, re-homed, returned home, kept over 65 dogs in the last 50 years.  i've been very involved for decades, just as i am sure you have been.  

              and, i didn't make my comment clear - the woman who OWNED the dog who was the loving responsible owner was from india - the bigots were the jerks who were the neighbors!  the family with the dog had non-stop problems with their neighbors from the day they moved in - the bigots tried to tell me the family was "uneducated" and irresponsible - yet, the wonderful woman and her son ( a college student) invited me into their home - they were the cultured ones - not the creepy neighbors!

              i am SO sorry that was not clear from my post!

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:56:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  oh, and in the last 10 years, this is no longer (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FarWestGirl

              an "abberation" - this particular rescue has a reputation for making dogs "disappear" - for purebreds, they are highly marketable.  if you like, send me a message on fb and let's be friends - you'll see an eyeful about what is currently going on in the animal world...

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:57:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Pet Flippers (8+ / 0-)

    We have a few individuals here in Houston that operate under different names to do this. Just had it pop up in my feed the other day from one of the people I work with trying to save animals.

    http://jasonluthor.jelabeaux.com/

    by DAISHI on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:14:58 PM PDT

  •  The dog owner should threaten to conact local news (16+ / 0-)

    Local newspapers and TV news stations eat this kind of story up, and the bad publicity is not going to do this rescue group any good. They depend in part on donations, and if they are like groups near me, they also use pet stores like PetSmart and Internet sites like Pet Finder to list their dogs, so they can get the fees that sustain them. I would also contact anywhere this place uses to find homes for the pets and tell them they take dogs who already have good, loving owners and give them to new owners for a profit.

    This woman may not like that she is getting abusive email, but that is not the dog owner's fault. The owner has a right to bring attention to the situation. A rescue group is supposed to be about finding homes for unwanted animals--not taking very much wanted animals from their owners, likely traumatizing the dog, and selling them to other people. They have a dog in their possession, the dog has a home, they should have reunited the dog with its owner and patted themselves on the back for satisfying their mission of making sure every pet has a good home.

    **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

    by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:24:25 PM PDT

    •  central ohio sheltie rescue and penny sanderbeck (6+ / 0-)

      are removing all negative posts from their facebook page as fast as they can - this is exploding on fb - along with people who are turning up saying they've had prior dealings with the woman and suggesting the name of a lawyer who can help.

      this is a purebred sheltie owned and shown - one of the "sticking points" with the AR people who think that no purebreds should exist - some of these groups have taken purebreds suspected of being show quality and immediately spayed or neutered them to prevent further breeding.

      as someone who has had and loved purebreds AND mutts for over 50 years, NO fanatic has the right to tell me that i cannot choose a specific breed to share my life with - just TRY to keep me from samoyeds!  (or any other breed i've "rescued" and loved).

      i've found over 65 dogs over the years - many purebreds - and i've been able to reunite many with their heartbroken owners.  it has been a great joy to be the go between to get them back home.  for those who had no where to return, most lived out their lives with me or with friends where i placed them with the caveat that IF their original owner showed up, the dog was going home!

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:29:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rescuer says there are six separate "owners" (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lenny Flank, edrie, whaddaya, hnichols

      Or at least claimants to being the owner.  Obviously can be sorted out, since the dog is reportedly chipped - but it appears some of the dispute is over how long this is taking.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:06:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Her Facebook post also says (9+ / 0-)

        She has decided that because of nast emails she received, she had decided the dog was better off where it is at. That sounds like a tacit acknowlegdement that she knows the dog has an owner, but she is not returning it out of spite over emails that were not even from the owner.

        I think her post and deletion of people's comments speaks volumes about her mindset regarding the dog. At any rate, a local reporter would try to get to the truth of the story.

        **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

        by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:28:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd chalk some of that up to "rant" (6+ / 0-)

          Sounds like she is being reactive to the beating up she and her organization are getting. I am surprised that what seems to be an organized rescue group got itself into this pickle, though.  There are better ways to handle "it is going to take time to verify ownership" than "I'm busy and I'm taking care of a sick friend".

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:40:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is very odd (7+ / 0-)

            Because if she were smart, she could have used this as a wonderful opportunity to promote her organization by showing how they look out for the welfare of animals and by celebrating a happy reunion between an award winning dog that got lost and its rightful owners. It is a feel good story that she could have used to bring attention to the animals they have that still need homes. Instead, she looks like a bitter woman keeping a dog she knows belongs to this other woman--whose heartbreak at losing her dog is something most of us can relate to.

            It would not matter to me if the rescue group had had the dog for a month--it is clearly a well cared for dog and belongs with its owner even if the rescuer does not personally like the owner. If I had gone to a game, I would have left my dog home alone for the afternoon!

            She hould just give the dog back at this point and apologize for the misunderstanding.

            **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

            by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:05:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  yep, it sounds to me as if there's a lot of (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie, whaddaya, hnichols, Piren

        simple hysteria here. The dog's legitimate owner has to SHOW to someone in authority that he/she is the legitimate owner--their say-so isn't enough. Particularly since there are others making the same claim.

        Once someone establishes their legitimate ownership to someone with authority, the solution will be simple and swift, and the dog will be returned.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:40:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  six people - all connected to the owners (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        whaddaya

        ( i imagine the friends also contacted the woman who runs the questionable "rescue" organization) were among the six.

        also, i got a private message on facebook from a woman who suggested my message was removed and i was blocked because i wasn't being "nice" to penny.  her posts were amazing!  there is NO doubt about who the owner of the dog is yet to get piper back, the owner has to be "nice" to penny sanderbeck and her rescue group?

        absolutely unbelieveable!

        this is as outrageous as this story....

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:07:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  if the dog owner can prove legal ownership (7+ / 0-)

      then I cannot imagine any judge not ordering it to be returned.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:07:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why did it take the "friends" three days... (10+ / 0-)

    to contact the shelter? In many high-kill shelters, he would have been euthanized in that time frame.

    There are over-zealous people in rescues, certainly. But there are far more people in rescue working their asses off for zero return trying to do the right thing and two of my dogs are in this room right now because of those people.

    •  i don't know the day the pup disappeared (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      whaddaya

      but if it were over a weekend, the clock doesn't stop ticking.  

      three days - and the rescue gets called... or sooner, if they have a close relationship with the shelter

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:47:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I googled the shelter--they're open 7 days a week (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie, Catte Nappe, hnichols, Piren

        Also this:

        "Dogs wearing a current Franklin County dog license will be held at the Shelter for up to fourteen days

        By law unlicensed dogs are only held for three days"

        So the dog probably wasn't licensed.

        Maybe this isn't the same shelter, but I'm just trying to point out that there may be more sides to this story than it appears.

        •  the microchip was there - chipped dogs are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FarWestGirl

          SUPPOSED to be checked - but many "rescue flippers" have "deals" with shelters to call them immediately if a purebred (or one that LOOKS like a purebred) comes through the door.

          did you read the story in the diary?  this is a show dog staying outside her home area while the owner was at the nationals.

          this isn't as simple as "not licensed" - there was adequate proof presented to the rescue but the director is refusing to return the dog - on the fourth day after the dog was taken in by the shelter - and on the fifth day, the owner contacted her.  that is FAST in lost dog world - especially since the owner was out of town.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:02:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think the problem is (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            edrie, Cassandra Waites, FarWestGirl

            that the idea of someone taking a dog they know belongs to someone is so anathema to what anyone here would ever conceive of doing that people are trying to find justifications for why the woman is doing what she is doing. They are finding it hard to accept that animal rescue is actually big business. I had read similar reports years ago about how some rescue groups in the north keep puppy mills in operation in the south by taking their puppies and presenting them as rescues for adoption in the north. It is not necessarily about profit--sometimes, it is just simply to keep their groups going. They need dogs to turn over to pay their salaries or support the dogs they cannot turnover.

            **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

            by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:09:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think also that the problem is that (7+ / 0-)

              for most people, rescues are organizations that help some of the neediest animals among us.

              It is clear that there is a problem with some unsavory organizations that call themselves "rescues," but are in fact not legit rescues at all. No rescue I have dealt with has been such an unsavory organization. I have experience with good, functioning rescues (staffed with caring volunteers and foster homes).

              In some instances, caring people take in animals, get over their head, and sometimes get too invested in the animals they are caring for, not letting them ever leave because no adopter is ever good enough. That happens. But the instinct is different than that of someone using the term 'rescue' as a front for dog thievery or as a laundering of puppy mill/byb pets.

              I can see that in some markets, particularly when people want dogs for fighting or other activities where papers aren't necessary, that an 'entrepreneur' might start up such an unsavory and illegal business. That just isn't the case where I am. So this is eye-opening, but understand that for a lot of people it is also an anathema.

              •  i have known rescues that changed dramatically (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cassandra Waites, FarWestGirl

                when their board of directors changed.  one such rescue actually hounded a family that found a dog for that "adoption fee" even though the rescue never had the dog in their possession - the family did.  the rescue DID pay for a vet to totally miss the dog's severe ear infection, the deafness due to that, the blindness in one eye and the neurological problem causing the dog to walk in circles - all due, most likely, from being struck by a car just before the family rescued him.

                i found out about the pup when i called that same rescue asking for a purebred sammy (when they get turned in for problems, it can be daunting to work with them - obsessive barking, escaping, chewing, etc) - and i'm good at the problem sams.  i told the rescue up front i was ONLY interested in a problem purebred sam (because they are SO hard to place and i have TONS of experience with them having rescued many over the years).

                this organization, knowing my own had just died recently, sent me out to see this "needy samoyed" who didn't have a sammy gene in his body - he was a husky mix - with the mask and other clear markings.  the bottom line is they lied!  i worked with the family to understand the northern husky breed and they ended up keeping and loving him - but while the woman was going through a serious illness with a family member, this unscroupulous group hounded them nonstop for the $450 "adoption" fee.  they paid it to get the rescue group off their backs.  the rescue by no means imaginable spent $450 on that dog - the family spent much more on the SECOND vet visit and more.  the good news is the boy recovered and is loved... no thanks to the lying woman at that particular rescue.

                most people don't see the dark underbelly of some of these groups.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:28:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  A very eye opening article on this problem (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                edrie, FarWestGirl, Ahianne

                **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

                by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:33:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Two separate issues - licensing and chipping (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            noreaster88, hnichols, edrie, Piren

            If the dog is chipped, that should expedite the rescue group ascertaining proper ownership of the dog.

            If the animal was not "licensed", that explains why the dog was released to the rescue group after only three days.

            “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

            by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:22:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  not a valid reason - "licensing" since the owner (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, akeitz, Cassandra Waites

              is from pennsylvania and piper was staying with friends in ohio.  

              it is NOT a requirement that a dog be licensed in the state where it is found to be returned to the owner.  otherwise, we would all need 50 state licensing.

              one more thing about licensing - the AR fanatics are pushing through licensing laws limiting the number of intact females and males that a person can own in an attempt to outlaw purebred breeders.  already, some states have passed laws requiring permits for more than 4 unspayed females - and the ag dept just caved to the AR fanatics and stated that people who offer dogs for sale cannot do so over the internet and the buyers must pick up the puppy in person - cannot be shipped.

              the AR agenda isn't about irresponsible (OR responsible) breeding - their agenda is that NO animal should be "owned" (thus the push for "animal rights).

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:50:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wha? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                edrie, Piren

                Had not realized the home state of the dog was not the same as the home state of the dog sitters. That surely adds to the complications. But how on earth is the the local shelter supposed to know that the unlicensed stray they have picked up in OH is actually a licensed pet in in PA?  

                “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

                by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:57:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  catte, did you see the picture of this dog? (0+ / 0-)

                  she is a purebred sheltie that is a show dog - well cared for, well fed, well groomed (after three days of being in a shelter, that grooming still shows in the health of the coat, teeth, toenails, etc.

                  no one who knows dogs would ever mistake a purebred healthy dog as being "neglected" by any stretch of the imagination.

                  her mom was at the nationals -

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:24:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Even if we were on vacation. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          noreaster88, edrie, Piren

          There's no way our dog would spend 3 days in a shelter if it managed to get loose.

          •  if your dog got picked up on a weekend, or (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            akeitz

            the staff was overworked and just didn't bother to look - OR (as someone upthread pointed out, the holding period is 14 days, yet this dog went out in only three) someone is getting "tipped" for tipping off rescues when a purebred comes through the door, you might not find your pet.

            i'm not saying that happened here but i am curious why the purebred dog went out in only three days when she was microchipped and the hold time is 14 days.  something isn't right here - and i hope there is more investigation into the policy of the shelter!

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:30:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  thank you for this post - through your comment (0+ / 0-)

          i googled the ohio code - the shelter has recorded the microchip number but never bothered to find out if piper was registered or not.  by law, they should have then held her for 14 days, instead, they turned her over to sanderbeck (she IS the "rescue", btw) - they did that in violation of ohio code.

          if you check the link i put first, there is significant more information on veronica's page now - including the documents showing the shelter scanning and reading the microchip but not following though, then the release to sanderbeck with the same numbered chip.

          sanderbeck is now claiming not to have the dog that the documents show she has - along with her own comments and those of people who tried to talk her into returning piper.

          this is just so ugly!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 11:30:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  if a pet is chipped (13+ / 0-)

    then that should be all the proof needed.

    Years ago, it Texas, the dog catcher in the next county was busted because he was going out and cruising neighboring counties for dogs he could pick up, illegally. (He was being paid by the head.) No one knew how many had disappeared permanently before he was found out.
    These 'rescue' groups that refuse to return animals sound like the same kind of operation.

    (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

    by PJEvans on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:36:44 PM PDT

  •  how does one google bomb a name? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    palantir, whaddaya

    i'd love to see this particular diary come up under her name when googled...

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:42:21 PM PDT

  •  a correction . . . . (9+ / 0-)

    I used to do reptile rescue and adoptions under a 501(c)3. It is NOT illegal for nonprofit rescue groups to charge an adoption fee--for most of them it's the only way they have to meet expenses.

    I do have zero sympathy for any "rescue" that refuses to return a found animal to its rightful owner.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 03:56:33 PM PDT

    •  i paid the same for my rescue (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lenny Flank, edrie, whaddaya, Piren

      as for the one I got from a family.  They need that money to keep going, but if someone doesn't have it and if they can care well for the pet, those fees can be waived.  

      plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

      by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:09:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I never waived any fees (10+ / 0-)

        If the adoptee couldn't afford the adoption fee, they couldn't afford to keep or care for the animal, either. And they didn't get it. (Reptiles of course have much lower costs than other animals, so the fees were generally in the $10-50 range, with occasional ones up to $100 or so). The big cost was in the proper cage and equipment--and I made them provide a photo (or a personal visit) to make sure they really had a proper setup--and if they didn't, they didn't get the animal.

        But of course all rescues have their own policies for that.

        PS--Like most rescues, I lost money every year; even though I had some equipment, food, and vet services donated for free, it still cost me far more to care for the animals than I got in adoption fees.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:22:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  of course (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          badscience, Lenny Flank, edrie, whaddaya, Piren

          it's a labor of love.  thank you

          plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

          by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:43:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was happy to do it (8+ / 0-)

            I've always loved reptiles and always kept them myself, so I liked having them around.

            The hardest to work with were the iguanas. Most people who bought a pet iggie never properly socialized it, and usually ended up with a rather large biting tail-lashing lizard who didn't like humans. So I had to take them all and work with each of them every day, for weeks or sometimes months, to patiently socialize them, teach them that humans were not a threat, and calm them down. (And of course they also usually needed lots of vet care to correct the effects of their improper diet and lack of UV lights). It was always a great feeling to see an iggie that had come in as a sickly buzzsaw of teeth and tail, go out as a well-socialized healthy lizard sitting happily on someone's shoulder.  :)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:09:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Rescues that adopt parrots and tortoises (10+ / 0-)

          generally charge very large fees. Those animals need special care and live a long time: longer than their owners sometimes. I have a friend with a tortoise, and she started a bank account for the tortoise so that if the tortoise outlives her (which she may well), there are resources to hand along to the person who "inherits" the tortoise. Of course, a new home will be lined up well before it is needed; even now, there are people in line just in case something were to happen.

          •  about 90% of my rescues were 3 species: (10+ / 0-)

            1. green iguanas
            2. red-ear slider turtles, and
            3. Burmese pythons

            All three of those require specialized (and rather expensive) setups for proper care. And yes, Slider turtles can live over 40 years, iggies can reach 20 years, and Burms can hit 25.  Burms, in addition, can be potentially lethal if you don't know what you are doing with them.  I vetted potential Burm adopters VERY carefully--I was only able to place small numbers of them with good owners, and therefore was forced to turn away large numbers of Burms simply because I couldn't possibly find homes for them all.  

            The rest of my rescues ranged from tarantulas to African tortoises to various kinds of snakes. Some of the more exotic species went to reptile parks or zoos. Some I kept myself and used in educational shows for school classes.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:53:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  my dad's bird Bill Bird (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lenny Flank, badscience, Christin, Piren

              lived to be almost 20. He was a love bird. He and my dad were a stitch, like a circus act.  He was purchased by someone who lost interest, and I got him, but my dad, he had to have that bird. So, one father's day, guess what?

              plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

              by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:29:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  back in my younger days I worked in a pet shop (7+ / 0-)

                as the guy who cleaned out all the cages every day. That meant I was the caretaker for the store's mascot, an African Grey named "Jake". Jake bonded with me instantly, and liked to ride around the store on my shoulder, barking like a dog and making noises like the cash register. Alas, when I quit my job there to move to Florida, poor Jake was utterly heartbroken.

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:35:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that sound like Bill Bird (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  badscience, Christin, Piren

                  he loved my dad, (it was mutual).

                  did you see that film about some park goose that was friends with this guy, he's ride his bike and the bird would go along, flying near his head?  What a love story.  I am so sorry you had to leave Jake. Birds bond.  Bill Bird didn't bond with me but he sure did with my dad.

                  plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

                  by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:39:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  ps--the people who do parrot rescue get (8+ / 0-)

            high praise from me.  Few people realize just how much work it takes to properly care for and socialize those birds--it is a 24/7/365  task. The poor rescuers never get a break, not even for vacations.  I couldn't do it.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:11:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you say that? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lenny Flank, Christin, Piren

              I am totally charmed.

              plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

              by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:30:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I adopted a bunch of budgies from a regional (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie, Christin, Catte Nappe, Piren

              bird rescue. Oh, the noise in that place! They have just about every bird you can imagine, including doves and pheasants and whatnot. But mostly the big, loud, biting ones that people got and didn't socialize and couldn't stand hearing. So they went to the rescue.

              I can't imagine how they ever get a break. So many birds needing daily care.

              •  i used to have a dozen keets - all named after my (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Christin, badscience, Piren

                favorite musical cast - i had sweeney bird, the demon budgie with fleet feet, beedle bambird and more.

                also adopted two conures (BOY are they loud!), two doves and two cockatiels!

                love birds - used to walk around with wild ones on my finger when i was in my teens.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:05:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  yes...i have two cockatoos.... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie, badscience, Catte Nappe, Piren

              the rescue group that took in the one...i worship them for what they do. the money. the rehab. the pain some of birds are in.

              our sulpher crested lost her human after being w/ him for 25 years. He had a sudden heart attack.
              she was grieving hard - and started to pluck her feathers.
              i am so grateful they took her in...and worked with her.
              and gave her to us .
              i tripled the adoption fee for them ...they spend so so so so so much money ....huge amounts at the vets etc. and have ZERO time to do anything else.

              That's why i take offense to a lot of the smears in this diary about rescue groups and the constant THEY ARE SELLING THEM nonsense the diarist wrote.

              •  my friend's rosy breasted cockatoo fell in love (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                badscience

                with me (how did I know that "head bobbing" back was a mating ritual) - he used to love when i left a phone message - and he'd try to chase off anyone who came near me.

                heh heh - better than the turkey at the horse show who decided i was JUST "perfect" and followed me around all day displaying!

                my luck - all those good looking guys around and i attracted the only turkey!

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:16:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  they can ask but not put a fixed demand, if (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lenny Flank

      i understand correctly - but i will find the exact laws involved and post them when i find them.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:12:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pink escaped (6+ / 0-)

    (someone left the gate open). Got picked up by a nice family a few blocks away. They called the cops who promptly arrested her. Well, not really, but it did cost me 25 bucks to bail her out.

  •  ps--the diary is misleading . . . (7+ / 0-)

    The rescue did not "steal" the dog.  They obtained the dog entirely legally from a legitimate shelter, under established legal procedures. We may or may not LIKE those procedures, but that is beside the point--nobody "stole" anything or is doing anything illegal.

    I understand that you are emotionally hyped-up about the issue, but by making a false (and actionable) statement like that, you are only opening yourself up to a whole world of trouble.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:12:19 PM PDT

    •  The law doesn't respect the playground (6+ / 0-)

      rule of "finders keepers."  I agree that they didn't steal the dog, but they very clearly don't own her now.  They do have a legal obligation to return her.  

      •  unfortunately....for companion animals. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie

        they are considered "property".  and are now the property of the rescue group. and are under no legal anything to return her.  man...if one of my birds was lost and found and i could not get her back home...i would grieve so damn hard i could not take it.

        •  ah, but the shelter AND the rescue had (5+ / 0-)

          an obligation to scan the dog and attempt to reach the owner - the chip was registered and readable.  

          this will be played out either with this woman doing the right thing or there will be a lawsuit.  i don't see the rescue organization winning either way.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:18:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  this just happened somewhere else... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            edrie, badscience, Piren

            the owners had no legal bearing at all.
            and the lawsuit would have been a waste of money that they would have lost.
            it's something about the three days passing.
            i have all my animals microchipped.
            if my one flighted bird ever got out - but SHE NEVER WILL so help me. But still.
            how could i find her in 3 days i do not know.

            i wish i could remember where else this happened.

            meanwhile, over 15 millions cats and dogs still being euthanized in the US because no one wants them...i wish breeders would stop or there was  a law.

            i do know i wish every bird breeder in the US was shut down period.
            PERIOD.

            •  it isn't the breeder who is a problem - most (4+ / 0-)

              breeders, contrary to peta propaganda, are responsible about placing their pups - my own sammy came with a microchip with his breeder's name and contact info included - and if anything happens to me, she takes him back no question - even if i could no longer want him (impossible) he goes back, no questions asked.

              GOOD breeders are not the problem - it is irresponsible owners (like my very nice neighbor) whose dog is not spayed and is pregnant AGAIN because he didn't get around to fixing the problem after the last litter of pups.

              the best champion for dogs are the breeders who work to improve the genetic lineage to stop disease, to ensure good temperament, who spend the funds on prenatal and post natal care of the dogs and pups.  good breeders never make money - it goes into caring for the dogs they love... and, at times, it turns tragic when a mom or her litter are lost.

              the dogs and cats that are euthanized are the ones from irresponsible care of intact dogs and cats.

              that said,u.c.davis has JUST completed the first study and is now doing a second one that shows major problems with neutering dogs at the H$U$ recommended age of 4 months.  cushings disease, hip dysplasia and other illnesses are a result of depriving the growing pup of the hormones needed to form healthy bones and bodies.

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:41:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  No, that's not how the law works. Lost property (0+ / 0-)

          doesn't become the property of whoever finds it.  The original owner still has legal title and still owns the animal.  Like I said, "finders keepers" might rule on the playground, but it doesn't rule in court.

    •  Not sure diarist says dog was initially stolen (7+ / 0-)

      The diary's author says in the diary that anyone could have a dog lost or stolen that ultimately ends up with a rescue group,  that some rescue groups choose the purebred dogs to make more money off of rehoming them, and that she hopes this case becomes a test case for rescue groups that do steal dogs, and then she mentions the PBS documentary as an example of dog theft.

      I think it could be argued that if someone presents proof that he or she owns a valuable dog that you just obtained from a shelter (where it resided for only 3 days),  you are essentially stealing it if you refuse to give it back--even if you came by it by honestly.

      The law may not consider it stealing (if not, I am amazed), but I would hope most people would. Right is right, and it is not right to keep property that provably belongs to someone else even if some legal 3-day limit expires.

      It reminds me of the Supreme Court saying women who find out their male coworkers have been paid more than they were are out of luck if they discover it  after the statute of limitations--which they said starts when the misdeed occurs--has expired.

      Most of us agree that is just wrong.

      And someone who loves dogs, as a pet rescue operator should, surely understands that a dog is like a family member to a lot of people, and losing that dog is traumatic. They should also readily acknowledge that animals have feelings and can get depressed when separated from a loving owner.

      This woman for the rescue group owes it to the dog to see past her anger and think about what is best for the dog, not to hold it hostage and give it to a stranger because of her resentment.

      **Electing Republicans to the government is like hiring pyromaniacs as firemen. They all just want to see everything burn to the ground.**

      by CatM on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:57:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  heh - just posted the same thing below. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CatM

        thanks.  

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:16:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe so, maybe some do (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie, hnichols, Piren
        some rescue groups choose the purebred dogs to make more money off of rehoming them,
        The rescue groups I know choose a particular breed for love of the breed, and in the interests of supporting the breed. Nothing to do with making more money.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:35:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  catte, i know there are very good rescue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FarWestGirl

          groups out there - i know some of them very well - i am NOT talking about those - but, there are SOME that are VERY underhanded and deceitful - this is one of those.

          i realize that this diary doesn't have the full content that is flying around facebook from the dog world today - but, believe me when i tell you that this is a HUGE topic today.

          many of my fb friends are dog breeders, dog lovers, dog people (and cat, too) and that community is a very small one.  this particular rescue, it appears, has done this before... and is being called out for the behavior in a major way.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:54:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  i don't agree with you - they now KNOW who (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akeitz, Cassandra Waites

      the legal owner is and are refusing to return the dog.  furthermore, there was a microchip they chose to ignore.  the claim that the chip was not "registered" is not accurate - and, even if a chip ISN'T "registered", it is still traceable.

      they didn't try and when they found out within ONE DAY who the owner was, the woman running the rescue refused to return piper!

      that is, imho and many others, theft!

      ah, just had a thought - those who "legally" buy stolen property don't have the right to retain said stolen goods - the same should go for a dog...

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Did the owners license the dog or not? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, edrie, whaddaya, Piren

    the 10 to 20 dollars the license costs comes with a whole bunch of legal protections besides being a law in itself.

    •  The rescuer implies they didn't (4+ / 0-)

      But there isn't enough info to say. Sometimes there are reasons for not licensing/registering. I've got a couple of unregistered cats, and know I'm taking a chance if they got out, but licensing here requires rabies vaxes, and they have a history of reacting.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 04:46:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  catte, that the dog is a purebred who is shown, (4+ / 0-)

        every vacination possible is recorded PRIOR to going to a show.  

        the papers were shown to this woman - she is now being stubborn - and she won't win.  her rescue organization won't "win" - her donors won't "win" - the dog won't "win" since she is being kept apart from her family.

        this is a nasty situation evolving out of an overblown ego and sense of self-importance.  and the dog and her family are going through hell because of it.

        central ohio sheltie rescue needs a new director. period.

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:22:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't say this dog wasn't vaxed (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          edrie, hnichols, Piren

          I responded to an inquiry about whether the dog was licensed/registered, and pointed out there are sometimes situations where legitimate owners don't register/license their animal(s). From the information posted it seems the registration/licensing of this particular dog is in dispute, but I have no reason to think he isn't properly vaccinated.

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:39:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  sorry not to be clear. this dog is registered, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cassandra Waites

            licensed (in a different state) and is fully identifiable - those papers and photos of the dog were supplied to the rescuer who is refusing to return the dog because people called vets and groomers to alert them of a stolen dog.

            the dog is very valuable, aside from being a beloved pet - and the rescue is fully aware of who the legitimate owner is... still, penny sanderbeck still has not returned the dog.

            can you offer one legitimate reason for her to still have that dog?

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 06:58:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  oh yes, that dog was licensed, registered, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akeitz, Cassandra Waites, FarWestGirl

      microchipped, akc registered, shown, owned and loved.

      sanderbeck was given a TON of proof of the dog's ownership and she refuses to return the dog.

      it is now about "ego", according to messages now on facebook.  i got this message from one of her defenders...

      from my personal facebook page came this exchange...

      Edrie Blackwelder ah - left out the first part of this exchange where kathi contacted me:

      Conversation started today

      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte
      3:42pm
      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte

      my post to COSR is still up.
      Perhaps you might want to read it to see why it is there, even though it supports Veronica, while others were deleted.
      I think several posters voluntarily removed their comments after i pmd them and told them it was not helping veronica to call names

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:44pm
      Edrie Blackwelder

      mine was immediately deleted and i was blocked from sending a message. the ONLY way veronica is going to be helped is by shaming this woman - if she isn't doing the right thing after that lame excuse on her page, then pressure is the only thing that will work. if the pup is adopted out instead of still in foster, then it will be much harder for veronica to get piper back.

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:45pm
      Edrie Blackwelder

      also, kathi, there is absolutely NO valid reason for her to be still holding onto piper - she has been given all the "evidence" she needs - from the posts she put on fb, it seems her ego is bruised at the vets being contacted - that is NOT in the best interest of the dog. if you have ANY sway with her, i'd use it. i'm guessing the media will get hold of this and it will damage the central ohio sheltie brand - that doesn't help any dog or human if it happens.

      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte
      3:46pm
      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte

      you completely missed the poitn
      and if you think shaming penny as you so quaintly put it, is going to work, you are quite naive about human behavior
      pissing COSR off will not get Veronicas dog back
      Penny has legal standing
      did you miss that?

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:48pm
      Edrie Blackwelder

      not necessarily - and does she REALLY want to spend the funds donated for rescue on lawyers?

      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte
      3:49pm
      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte

      veronica can throw all the money and police at COSR as she can, the bottom line is that she has legal standing and the only thing that will get the dog back is being nice... not acting like a bunch of ill behaved children.
      that never works

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:49pm
      Edrie Blackwelder

      that will go over really big with her donors - along with the negative publicity that she is getting right now. the dog's owner was not at fault - IF she had the best interest of the dog at heart, there should have been NO question regarding returning the dog.
      acting like a bunch of children? have YOU ever had a dog go missing no fault of your own? are YOU missing the bond between a dog and person? reallty!

      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte
      3:51pm
      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte

      I can understand why Penny blocked you.
      I bent over backwards to help veronica
      Maybe you should judge yourself more, and others, less.
      I'm sorry i tried to talk to you.
      clearly a waste of time

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:51pm
      Edrie Blackwelder
      omigod.... i just re-read your post - "being nice? - to return piper to her owner? piper isn't hers to keep - morally - and, most likely, legally.

      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte
      3:52pm
      Kathi Bunny Tagliamonte

      like i said i am sorry i tried to talk to you
      Legally, the dog is COSR's. Anything you say means nothing, legally.
      Bye

      Edrie Blackwelder
      3:52pm
      Edrie Blackwelder

      i look at sanderbeck as being a dog thief. i've rescued over 65 dogs in my lifetime and made it a point to try to retrun them to their owner.
      You cannot reply to this conversation.
      53 mins · Edited · Like

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 05:19:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The owners need to get an attorney. nt (6+ / 0-)
  •  Bottom line (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hnichols, Piren, Ahianne

    This has turned into a personal vendetta with both sides trying to enlist others in a witch hunt/flame war.

    Everyone directly involved needs to calm the fuck down, get off stupid Facebook, and work things out. This isn't resolving anything.

    •  Finally! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Piren

      The voice of reason. Stop waging war and everybody calm down.

    •  um - this isn't the first time - the other dogs (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FarWestGirl

      didn't come home.

      there IS no question of who owns the dog - the papers are in order - the microchip was ignored - there is NO LEGITIMATE REASON for that rescue and penny sanderbeck to still be holding that dog - none whatsoever.

      IF everyone did as you suggest, then the dog could just "disappear" and never be recovered.  the ONLY way for piper to come home is by this staying visible.

      rescues frequently fly dogs (or drive them) to other parts of the country, change the name of the dog and quickly "place" them for a fee - this time, the owner found her dog before piper could be transferred.  sanderbeck admitted the dog is in foster and still in her possession (or the rescue organization's possession) - so IF she dares to try to sell the dog now, then there will be some explaining to be done.

      publicity is the only way to prevent the disappearance of this loved dog.

      period.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 07:02:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  this was just posted by veronica covatch (0+ / 0-)

    on her facebook page.  i am putting it in all boxes, as well as the comments so that anyone who might be questioning this situation will have the facts straight from the owner as to why there was a delay in her finding her dog.

    now, let's help get piper home again!

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

    23 mins · Like · 5

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:41:04 PM PDT

  •  Edrie, you need to understand (0+ / 0-)

    Lenny Frank tried to explain to you.

    Once the 3-day waiting period had expired, the original owners NO LONGER OWNED THE DOG.  Legally, the ownership was transferred to the animal control entity where the dog was housed.  At that time, the new animal control owners were free to do whatever they wanted with the dog.  They could have euthanized it, or they could have adopted it out to new owners, or they could have sold the dog for scientific experimentation (if local and state laws allowed), or they could transfer the ownership to anyone else of their choosing.  In this case, the new owner of the dog is the Sheltie Rescue group.  Whether you like it or not, the original owners of the dog no longer have a legal claim to ownership, because the 3-day hold period expired.

    Now, the rescue organization is stuck between a rock and a hard place.  They legally have ownership of the dog, and if they are like most legitimate dog rescues, there is a clause in their by-laws that requires that any dog that they own must be spayed or neutered before it can be re-homed.  If the dog is a puppy, the adoption contract will stipulate that the puppy must be spayed or neutered by the time it reaches a certain age (often 6 months).  So, even if they chose to return the dog to its original owner--the individual that lost ownership after the 3-day period (how many times do I need to assert that fact?), their by-laws likely require that the dog no longer be capable of breeding (and due to AKC rules no longer eligible for the show ring--it's called "The Breed Ring" for a reason).

    You may not like these facts--I'm not wild about them either--but it is what it is, and no amount of trantrum throwing will change the law.

    •  reddog1 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FarWestGirl

      there is now legal documentation that the shelter HAD the microchip number and did nothing to contact the legal owner (as, i believe, they are required to make that attempt) - and they turned the same dog (documented again) over to the rescue (owned and run by one penny sanderbeck - no one else involved).

      furthermore, sanderbeck is now denying having the dog for which legal documentation of the microchip number is recorded by the shelter intake.

      what i do not LIKE is the FACT that there are some unscrupulous people who will steal someone's loved pet - and this is not a "tantrum" (as you so quaintly put it).

      there are legitimate rescues who do great good and those who are disreputable.  

      furthermore, the dog in question is listed as "spayed" on the sheet - she is, indeed, sterile.  her mother is the show dog who appears in the "breed ring" (as you try to show your "knowledge").  i have shown dogs, have owned show dogs, have rescued purebreds and more - and i'll wager i know a helluva lot more about this situation than you can ever hope to know.

      keep on defending the indefensible.  i can guarantee you will be on the wrong side of this issue.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 10:56:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  for your edification: OHIO STATE CODE (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FarWestGirl

      regarding holding a dog picked up by the dog warden:

      955.16 Disposing of impounded dogs.
      (A) Dogs that have been seized by the county dog warden and impounded shall be kept, housed, and fed for three days for the purpose of redemption, as provided by section 955.18 of the Revised Code, unless any of the following applies:

      (1) Immediate humane destruction of the dog is necessary because of obvious disease or injury. If the diseased or injured dog is registered, as determined from the current year's registration list maintained by the warden and the county auditor of the county where the dog is registered, the necessity of destroying the dog shall be certified by a licensed veterinarian or a registered veterinary technician. If the dog is not registered, the decision to destroy it shall be made by the warden.

      (2) The dog is currently registered on the registration list maintained by the warden and the auditor of the county where the dog is registered and the attempts to notify the owner, keeper, or harborer under section 955.12 of the Revised Code have failed, in which case the dog shall be kept, housed, and fed for fourteen days for the purpose of redemption.

      (3) The warden has contacted the owner, keeper, or harborer under section 955.12 of the Revised Code, and the owner, keeper, or harborer has requested that the dog remain in the pound or animal shelter until the owner, harborer, or keeper redeems the dog. The time for such redemption shall be not more than forty-eight hours following the end of the appropriate redemption period.

      At any time after such periods of redemption, any dog not redeemed shall be donated to any nonprofit special agency that is engaged in the training of any type of assistance dogs and that requests that the dog be donated to it. Any dog not redeemed that is not requested by such an agency may be sold, except that no dog sold to a person other than a nonprofit teaching or research institution or organization of the type described in division (B) of this section shall be discharged from the pound or animal shelter until the animal has been registered and furnished with a valid registration tag.

      any questions, dear?

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 11:16:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this law was written in 1992 and revised in 2006 (0+ / 0-)

        BEFORE the widespread use of microchips - i am quite sure that the microchip identification is proof enough to check the county where the dog is listed.  UNTIL they had determined where the microchip was issued (which the shelter did not do - they scanned it, recorded the number and without follow up, released the dog to sanderbeck), they did not do due dilligence to determine whether or not the dog was registered, as required by ohio law.

        but, i'll let the lawyers take care of that little "oversight" by the shelter.  

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 11:22:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Edrie, you're a dog person (0+ / 0-)

          You should know that chip registration is not handled by animal control.  When a chip is implanted, it is the responsibility of the owner of the dog to complete the process by notifying the purveyor of the chip (Avid and Home Again are the two I'm familiar with) that chip xxxxxx is in a dog owned by ____.  When a chip is scanned by a vet or animal control, the resultant number is called in to the chip purveyor and their database will read out the who and where of the dogs ownership.  This only works if the owner completed the registration process of the chip purveyor.

          Did animal control scan the chip or not?

          Was the chip registered with Avid or Home Again?

          If the answer to the above questions are both "yes", then the owner has a beef with animal control (not with rescue).  

          If the answer was yes to the first question and no to the second, then the original owner was negligent and she has no valid complaint with animal control.

          If the answer to the first question is no, then, depending on the laws of the state and county where animal control is located, she may have a case against them.  The rescue group doesn't appear to have any liability in either case because it was animal control that released the dog (and transferred ownership) to them.

          •  what is so hard about this - the chip was scanned (0+ / 0-)

            AND RECORDED - the actual NUMBER - by the shelter where piper was taken.

            furthermore - the chip's information was on record.

            the answer is YES to BOTH of your questions - and, just FYI - the director of that shelter was fired on friday

            you are sadly unaware of the complexity of this - i suggest you go back to the first link and read the entire thread - or, at the very least - read the last 100 comments where the owner addresses all of the misconceptions you make.

            this rescue has had questionable dealings in the past - and, contrary to your defense of the organization, must follow the law, as well.

            this is a question of improper transfer of the dog to the rescue and the rescue's own acknowledgement that the owner is seeking return, however, because she is annoyed, will not return the dog to that owner DESPITE the overwhelming evidence that the dog is hers.  the rescue is now trying to claim she this is not the same dog, however the shelter records confirm the chip number on the release form.

            there is massive lying here - and you are defending it.  why?

            btw, what makes you think that ONLY chips registered with two services are the only registrations?  that is a bit odd coming from someone so sure of their position, isn't it?

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 09:49:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  on the shelter director being fired: (0+ / 0-)

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 09:49:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you have a reading comprehension problem? (0+ / 0-)

              The director was fired in MARCH.  Last I checked, this is the end of APRIL.  The article has zero to do with this incident.

              Now, answer my question.

              WAS THE CHIP REGISTERED WITH AVID OR HOME AGAIN?

              I really think the dog should go back to its original owner, but you are off-the-rails on this and you are not thinking rationally.  Very possibly, blame is being misplaced and you really need to calmly consider the steps that have led to what may be a situation that can be resolved if all parties step back, take a deep breath, and make a resolution to patiently work through the problems.  The key word is PATIENTLY, which seems to be lacking in this entire episode.

              You may be familiar with the adage, You can lure more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.  Attacking the director of the rescue group is a bad tactic and I'm not surprised that the use of threats might cause the termination of communication.  And yes, I did read the entire thread, and I still do not know if the chip was registered in the purveyor's database.  The dog's chip was read by the shelter--o.k., but without a database entry it was a useless number.  I know this because I was directly involved in a nearly identical case, which was thankfully resolved without threats and rants on the internet.  Because of that case, I am suspecting that there was no registration and no database entry, because shelters want found pets to return home and have zero incentive to do anything else.  Likewise, rescue has no incentive to not return a dog, in spite of your accusations that they "make money" on adoptions.  I can assure you, there are no rich rescues, and every dollar of adoption fees goes back into the care of more rescues.  And without foster homes, there would be no rescue, because the numbers of dogs, including dogs in purebred rescue, can be overwhelming for only the representatives of the rescue group.  And for those that think that a rescue dog doesn't look like a show dog, I've got news for you.  There are many that have excellent conformation and those that would pigeon-hole rescues as less than  perfect examples of a breed are simply clueless.

              If you want more rant from me, take it to heart that I can give it.

              •  how many times do i have to tell you the chip (0+ / 0-)

                was registered - the shelter had teh friggin' phone number of the VET on their intake - they called on easter sunday and never tried again!  this is documented on the shelter's intake and "adoption" release forms.

                perhaps it is not my reading comprehension that is the issue here... you obviously have not checked the links provided which have ALL of the documented evidence that this dog HAS an owner.

                had you read all the posted links, you would see that the person who terminated communication was sanderbeck - who flatly stated she would not return the dog, even though she acknowledged having the documentation showing the owner.

                what you are not aware of is the reputation of this woman (who, btw, does NOT represent ALL or even MOST rescue groups).  this isn't the first time there have been major issues with her - more are coming out from people who have had direct negative experiences with her.

                as for not having an "incentive" to NOT return the dog - this female sheltie has been best of breed, won multiple champions and is highly valuable - even through rescue placement.  the better the quality, the higher the "adoption" fee.

                i have fostered MANY dogs in my life - over 65 - many ended up permanent "fosters" - i know exactly how hard it is to foster or to place dogs.  i've been involved for over 50 years in rescuing dogs... and cats... and squirrels... and racoons... and horses... and crows.... and many other birds.

                what is known about piper is that she is an extraordinary example of the breed - the owner provided her pictures of piper with her handler, with her akc registration, even offered to pay for a dna test (veronica has her dam) to PROVE piper is her dog - yet, this operator refuses to respond to ANY communication from her.

                right now, however, there is hope.  another person is interceding to try to resolve this issue - someone exposed to the situation through the facebook posts.  i have great hope that he will be successful.

                i will update this site if that is the case - or, if it isn't.

                again, i am NOT demeaning fosters or denigrating legitimate rescues - many of my dog friends do rescue (i have at the moment had to step back from doing so but will again in the future).  i have many friends who are breeders who actively work for purebred placement of any pup that doesn't "work out" with a family - whether of their own breeding or someone elses.

                please go back to the site - look for veronica's posts and you'll find teh shelter intake and adoption forms that clearly state the registration number and that they tried to call (on easter sunday, for god's sake!) and never bothered to try again.

                as the person in the ohio agriculture division said when informed about this situation, "right is right and wrong is wrong - and this is WRONG!"

                those of us who are participating in the fight (yes, it is a fight since honey didn't work after a full week of trying) are all dog owners and lovers - and ALL of us realize that it could be any one of our OWN dogs in this situation.

                THAT is the reason we won't let this go until piper is home!

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 11:08:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The chip was NOT registered. (0+ / 0-)

                  The shelter had the vet in their paperwork because the chip traced to the vet as the implanter of the chip. Other notes reveal the shelter called the vet and requested owner info but did not get a response during the stray time for the dog. A registered owner and an implanter are not the same! Even the owner admits that despite having the chip number the actual chip was not registered until after the dog was with the rescue. Just one of the potential legal issues for the owner, or rather the old owner.

                  I have followed this saga on facebook since the beginning. The facts of this matter are that the dog ended up in a shelter and underwent the required legal stray time without an owner able to be identified or coming forward to claim her. The dog became the property of the shelter once the stray time was completed and they could legally handle the dog as they desired. They legally turned the dog over to the rescue. The rescue now legally owns the dog. The rescue did not steal the dog and they are not keeping it from its legal owner. These are the facts that can be determined by all the posts and images that have been shown on facebook.

                  Are there problems with all this? Absolutely! It's a distaster. Why didn't the sitter call the shelter or notify the owner the dog was missing during the stray time? There was an outside situation involved but I sure hope they didn't leave the dogs alone and completely unattended in their backyard for that many days! Why are stray times so short one only has three days to find their missing dog if it ends up in the shelter? Change your local laws and be willing to spend more on taxes to support longer stray times to give more owners chances to find their dogs if and when they hit the shelter. Why no traceable ID on the dog? Assume no tag and chips are often traced only as a courtesy but this owner did not do what was required to make that possible even though the shelter made attempts. The problems never end.

                  Don't know if the owner will get their dog back. Smear campaigns, misinformation, numerous contacts with inaccurate claims and creation of more issues seldom help. Can't blame the rescue for shutting down on the situation regardless of whether they are good or bad. Situation may have been much different if people would have remained rational although I would have had a very hard time if it were my dog too. Despite everything and the fact the rescue doesn't seem to be in illegal possession of the dog it is my opinion that the dog should be returned to her owner and that her owner should pay appropriate compensation for documented expenses (a pull fee from the shelter not being among them since they didn't seem to pay anything).

                  •  there are MAJOR problems with this story... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CatM

                    it is NORMAL for  the vet to have the most current information - my OWN vet has assured me that his information is the first line of tracing my dog since the original paperwork filed with a service does not reflect any moves of the owner - the current vet has that information.

                    secondly - the chip WAS registered - you are getting the misinformation put out by the rescue person who has admitted to knowing that this is veronica's dog but is refusing to return her.

                    as for the three day hold time - that is for dogs without id - a microchip that is implanted IS id - even the shelter that held piper chips EVERY adopted pet that goes out!

                    your opinion that they called but the vet didn't get back - you DO realize this was over the easter holiday - when most vets are closed...as was this one.

                    the shelter called on a sunday - and unless a vet is an emergency vet, they are not available opn sunday.  the scan SHOULD have been done on intake and the call made.  why was the call delayed until sunday and why did they not call again during normal business hours.

                    furthermore - why isn't the hold a three BUSINESS day hold to accommodate for holiday weekends.

                    now, it gets even stickier.  ohio state law states that wardens only hold dogs without registration information for three days but IF the dog is registered with the county and is on the warden's list of dogs for the county in which it is registered, then the mandatory hold is 14 days.

                    by NOT calling back for the chip information, the shelter had no idea where the owner lived - whether the owner was a resident of franklin county, a different county in ohio - OR - since the law does not specify that the dog must be licensed in the state of ohio - whether or not the dog was registered and licensed in a different state.  piper was licensed and registered - all the information was key to the chip - yet the shelter rushed the "adoption" at three days without following the state law that says IF a dog is licensed and registered, then it must be held for 14 days.

                    the shelter did not do due diligence in determining the licensing and registration of this dog when it did not bother to call that phone number again on monday morning.

                    instead, they quickly turned over the dog to a rescue organization without any further attempt to locate the proper venue from which the dog was registered and licensed or the owners - as required buy ohio state law!

                    as for people behaving irrationally - this started AFTER the woman, sanderbeck, refused to contact veronica after she had received all of the documentation proving her legitmate ownership, started rumors through other rescuers that veronica was trying to "sell" the dog - refused to return her calls for days and finally emailed her and told her she was not relinquishing the dog buy was placing it elsewhere in the best interest of the dog.

                    veronica contacted her in less than 24 hours after she took possession of a dog that SHOULD have been legally held in the shelter for another 10 days - she has mounted a campaign of untruths about the owner - none of which were responded to UNTIL it became apparent that the dog is at risk of being made to "disappear".  furthermore, despite the microchip number of this dog - for which the owner has the original papers - being on the shelter papers AND the transfer papers AND the veterinarian's phone number clearly printed, sanderbeck tried to then claim this is not the same dog.

                    how would you handle a dishonest exchange?  would you sit back and HOPE the rescuer would be "nice" when all evidence is to the contrary?

                    this is far more complicated than you are aware.  the owner has offered to pay for a dna test on this dog to prove ownership - she still has the dam.  she has gone above and beyond what SHOULD have been a simple matter to get sanderbeck to return her dog.

                    then, sanderbeck scrubbed her facebook, took down her 501(c)3 facebook page and started trying to erase all the prior statements she has made.  unfortunately for her - many of us did screen captures.

                    this dog is a senior champion show dog - there are classes for which she is still eligible to be shown - yet IF she is spayed, she is no longer eligible according to akc rules.  time is of the essence here - IF this woman spays the dog now, it is a malicious and deliberate attempt to undermine the dog's record.  

                    why would a "rescue" do this?  it is simple.  a high quality purebred dog fetches a very HIGH price for it's "adoption" fee - some rescues ask as much as $800.  this dog is money to the rescue.  

                    GOOD rescues state in their mission statements that their primary goal is to rescue dogs in need, reunite lost dogs with their owners and to provide care for those that need it.

                    why, then, does this rescue insist on spending money on lawyers when this particular dog has a loving home and family who wants her returned INSTEAD of spending the donations taken in on those dogs who are truly in need.  piper is not one of those.

                    there are real questions as to what is going on here - when an owner provides proof of ownership - continuity of vet care - a healthy dog - a well adjusted dog - a LOVED dog, why would ANY rescue not be overjoyed to reunite that dog with its family.

                    there are problems here that are, as i have said, much deeper than what the surface would indicate.

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Tue Apr 29, 2014 at 01:12:13 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Please do not rely on your vet for chip info. (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't care if your vet is open 24/7/365. All chips NEED to be registered with their appropriate database. This means the chip database has info in the owner category (and may have space for a secondary emergency contact too). Every owner having a pet implanted should receive info on how to do it or be informed it is being done and receive confirmation from the chip database that it was done and all info is correct. A pet does NOT have a REGISTERED owner with the chip company until this is completed. Owners also need to be sure info is kept up to date and EVERY database has a way to change info if necessary (read provided info or contact registry to find out how to do it). A registered pet takes one phone call to the chip database to find its owner and return the pet.  

                      Relying on a vet for info only adds complication to using chips to get pets back to their owners. One has to ask for clinic/implanter info then call the clinic/implanter while hoping they are open and keep good records and then depend upon the clinic/implanter to either provide info or contact the owner and inform them of where to find their pet. Keep in mind the chip company only tracks where the chip went for the clinic/implanter when they sell the chip but that category can include a clinic, shelter, rescue, individual or even a broker who may buy in bulk and keep no records of the chips they resell to clinics, shelters, rescues, individuals or even other brokers, a fact unknown to many owners. Tracking chips that way can take numerous phone calls and it is not uncommon for it to lead to dead ends... or worse. If I have a dog with only a chip arrive in my clinic on a Friday eve in need of either costly surgery and rehab to save its life now or euthanasia to prevent immediate suffering and the chip leads to no registered owner and another clinic closed until Monday morning the chances are that the dog is going to be euthanized. No chance of getting owner permission to save it and inhuman and usually illegal to let it suffer.

                      Veronica is the one who posted that through mistakes Piper was NOT properly registered by the co-breeder or herself until after Piper had already done her stray time in the shelter and was with the rescue. Big mistake and one that needs to be acknowledged since ownership had already been legally relinquished with the shelter stray time (no owner in chip database means NO OWNER since clinic/implanter is not viewed the same) despite the fact that I feel the dog should be returned to Veronica. Bigger issue for the masses may be understanding the dire importance of being sure their pets are registered reflecting their ownership with the proper chip database (all of which are available 24/7/365). It could get more pets back to owners and even save lives!

                      •  what you have missed in all this is that neither (0+ / 0-)

                        the shelter NOR the rescue organization bothered to call to GET the information.  they called the number and reported "no response" - the registered number FOR the chip - NO RESPONSE!

                        why?  perhaps it was because it was easter weekend!  i have personally found dogs over major holidays and in the middle of weekends and in the middle of the night.  getting a response is next to impossible.

                        you assume that chip makers are infallible.  there are multiple incidences where the chip company claimed the chip was unregistered when it was so.  then when another call was made - OOPS!  FOUND it.

                        that this has deteriorated into a chip registered, with whom, etc. is STILL irrelevant at this point.

                        both the shelter AND the rescue know who the lawful owner of this dog is - now, she needs to be returned.  mistakes were made at the shelter - violations of ohio law - serious mistakes that need an official inquiry so that this doesn't happen again.

                        the REAL issue here is this:  are shelters and rescues there to help find the owners of lost or stolen dogs OR are they there to lay claim to them to then profit by selling them.

                        it is a disturbing question that needs to be answered on a much higher level than this forum.

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 12:06:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

  •   I have fostered many kittens and pups (0+ / 0-)

    and lost a lot of sleep feeding and cleaning babies three times a night.  That doesn't take into consideration cleaning and disinfecting and scrubbing bottles before the next feeding.  

    To tar rescues with a broad brush is insulting.  I had to turn down fosters because I couldn't take in any more.  I had to steel myself to not take anymore fosters I can handle.  You can't save them all.  

    •  you have not read this entire thread if you make (0+ / 0-)

      the assumption that i am tarring ALL rescues.  

      i have REPEATEDLY stated there are excellent rescues - and there are the others.

      would you keep the abusive ones open at the expense of loving dog (and cat) owners and at the expense of good organizations that work to reunite lost pets with those who love them?

      i've personally rescued dogs, cats, pups, kittens, horses, squirrels, racoons, crows and more - have lost sleep, too - and almost been fired for taking a nursing squirrel on a training job at johnson and johnson.

      can't save them all?  no, but we try - but to STEAL someone's beloved pet because of a judgmental and ugly attitude is just wrong.

      let me also post for you what actually happened here...from the first link in the diary - in the comments:

      Veronica Wagner Covatch

      To clear the record yet again Bethany Watkins, Piper was being cared for by a friend who told Penny I owned the dog, her father had a heart attack and Piper and her two dogs got out of a fenced yard over Easter weekend. I did not know anything about this situation until 2:32 pm on Tuesday and immediately contacted the shelter and rescue and sent proof of ownership as did the co-owner! Penny refused to respond and when she finally did she threatened me with her lawyer (I have the e-mails) and said with all the campaigning she was being tired out and would not make this a priority. She NEVER told me my dog was safe. The shelter did find out who inserted the microchip (a vet) but never bothered to check further...call the vet that inserted it! Instead the turned the dog over to the rescue. Piper was born here...I have her dam. I can prove that through DNA. She has not lived in 3 places in the past year! Penny is not stating the facts at ll. I have nothing to hide. I did threatened to sue her vet IF they spayed my dog! Not because she will be bred...she's sterile, but because research now shows a dog is healthier when left intact! I do NOT work so m home with my dogs every day/all day. They live free in my house, sleep on my bed every night, and have been better cared for than most children! I have a dog door so they can come in and out at will to three fenced acres. I have a call in to a lawyer and the police have been called also. Why would I do all this if I didn't love my dog? We even sent vet records to Penny only to receive NO response. A rescue is suppose to rescue abused and neglected pets NOT steal someone's well cared for and loved pet!

      can anyone plan for EVERY contingency (like a heart attack?)  no, they can't.  that is why rescue organizations have a moral obligation to work to make sure EVERY animal that goes through that organization is returned to loving owners...  every single time.  

      if you have a pet, how would YOU feel if a do-gooder decided YOU weren't good enough to love and care for your pet?

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 11:44:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  MORE information just in - from the dog's owner (0+ / 0-)

    who posted this exchange between sanderbeck and herself - until sandebeck stopped responding!

    Veronica Wagner Covatch 4/22, 10:46pm

    Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue

    Veronica...please be advised that we now have six different people trying to get me to give over this one dog. So all are being told the same thing since i have no clue now where she used to belong...prove previous ownership. All these emails and texts from breeder world and friens is only serving to confuse matters and tiring me out. The larger this gets the less inclined i am to make it a priority. Please just provide what was asked and shut down the campaign...we have 35 other dogs that need our attention too. Tell me how your dog ended up in columbus without you and your other dogs? I am confused

    Notice this message to me says 6 different people trying to get her to turn over this one dog....NOT six different people claiming to own this one dog!
    19 mins · Like

    Veronica Wagner Covatch you and your other dogs? I am confused

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/22, 10:53pm

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    I placed a male with this ladies mother. Piper went along for the transition period as she and Austin are buddies. That's how she got to Columbus. I have sent you proof of ownership and photos. What more do you want? You told me to have people who know the dog contact you.

    .

    I was at the ASSA nationals in St Louis, MO

    .

    The proof is right here in the message above your message!

    .

    If this as your beloved dog you'd be doing everything you could to get her back too. All I want is my dog!

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/23, 1:18am

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    I will repeat my offer in writing to pay for DNA testing on Piper. I have her dam so can prove through DNA that in fact the dog you have is Piper! No one else that contacts you can offer to do this or have the dam along with the documents I already sent you that prove she is my dog! PLEASE GIVE HER BACK!!!!! I can be there today!

    .
    ...

    Friday

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/25, 12:18am

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    I have given you everything you asked for including Piper's microchip number. Her co-owner has also contacted you and provided information. Why won't you respond or call me? If you would just communicate with me we could resolve this. If nothing else release the dog back to Michelle....her co-owner. It does not take this long to identify us as her owner with all the info we gave you...especially her chip number which no one else but Michelle and I know

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 12:58:49 AM PDT

  •  more... (0+ / 0-)
    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    1:15am

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    oops...Penny G Snderbeck

    .

    Sanderbeck

    .
    ...

    Today

    Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue

    12:59pm

    Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue

    You have crossed the line now. I am done

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/26, 12:28am

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    12:19am

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    What are you talking about? I have asked everyone to stop posting anything. I haven't been home all day. I was with my 75 year old mother

    .
    ...
    5 mins · Like

    Veronica Wagner Covatch Above re the messages between me and a volunteer because as you can see I was getting more and more frustrated because Penny would not contact me about Piper. She contacted others but not me except when she told me to stop the campaign!
    1 min · Like

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 01:02:09 AM PDT

  •  final update before i go to bed - more tomorrow (0+ / 0-)

    i promise to keep on top of this - i hate leaving folks hanging...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch .
    ...

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    4/23, 6:45pm

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    i will ask her If you were to come to Columbus with all the paper work when should you do it.

    .

    When could you do it?

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/23, 6:45pm

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    NOW......anytime!

    .
    ...

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    4/23, 6:48pm

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    i asked her if you were to come to Columbus with all the papers work what does should she bring and when would you want her to come?

    .

    waiting for answer

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/23, 6:48pm

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    I'd even bring her dam if
    6 mins · Like

    Veronica Wagner Covatch .
    ...

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    4/23, 7:13pm

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    copy by right click and high light

    .

    and put it in a email and send it to me then you have a copy in your email

    .

    Penny said she will let you know

    .

    She said she has others that say they have doc papers too

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/23, 7:18pm

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    sent you an e-mail...did it come?

    .
    ...

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    4/23, 7:18pm

    Julie Griffith Longnecker

    Who would have other papers

    .

    let me check

    .

    yes it did so do that with that other comversation

    .
    ...

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    4/23, 7:19pm

    Veronica Wagner Covatch

    no one...and that's why I'm upset Penny is dragging this out. No one but me has AKC info, chip info, win photos with the handler verifying it's Piper and my dog,, ect....

    .

    This just isn't right. I think
    4 mins · Like

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 01:20:48 AM PDT

  •  Kids get lost (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edrie

    If you find a lost child, do you get to decide the parents aren't fit and refuse to give her back to them?

    You don't get to decide to keep a lost animal, either, just because you found it.

    I spoke with a couple of rescue groups before I adopted my dog from the SPCA. I decided I didn't want to deal with them. I understood that they wanted to make sure the animals were going to be well taken care of, but the SPCA did due diligence without insisting on coming out and inspecting my home or grilling me about what I was going to feed the dog and what hours I was going to walk it. However well-intentioned it was, it was very annoying.

    Yes, I did lose my dog a few times. She was an Alaskan husky, and they like to bolt. And are really fast. I was very lucky she didn't get hit by a car. I wasn't a perfect guardian. But she had a long, healthy and happy life with me.

    I got lost a few times when I was a kid. I suppose my parents could have been considered negligent, although people didn't hover over their kids as much back then as they do now. But it in any case, thank God no one decided to take me away from them because they made a mistake.

    •  if you had a husky - then we are on the same (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      denise b

      page - i've had samoyeds since 1970 - and they are escape artists, too - all northern breeds are - and then they take off to alaska - or l.a.

      that is part of the challenge of loving these difficult ones.

      seems like penny sanderbeck has lawyered up - hopefully this means she is working through attorneys to return veronica's dog.

      veronica has filed a police report for her stolen dog - the ohio ag commisson is one of MANY groups that said that "right is right" and "wrong is wrong" - there is a huge push to get veronica her dog back quickly.

      what is curious is whether or not this sanderbeck is using donated funds to pay for the lawyer - something that should be highly suspicious on tax filings!

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 02:26:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Facebook page (0+ / 0-)

    for Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue isn't accessible now. I wonder what that means. Probably that they got bombarded with people telling them to give the dog back to its owner.

  •  I do Pomeranian rescue (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edrie, PeterHug

    and unfortunately, there are some shady operators out there.

    While I'm fostering, I pay for the spay/neuter, shots, and any other medical care required.  I don't charge a rehoming fee - it's enough for me to see that the dogs get a good home.  All of my dogs are puppy mill rescues and I have to do a lot of work on their socializing skills so they can be placed successfully.

    I've seen some purebred rescue groups ask many hundreds of dollars to adopt one of their dogs - some of them have needed extensive medical care and that's fine.  But when ALL of their dogs require 4 or 5 hundred to adopt, watch out.  It's easy to pluck a purebred from a shelter and then make money from it.  What's happened in the case you cite is absolutely appalling.

    But ---- I do admire the people who keep an eye out on kill shelters and rescue their particular breeds.  Nothing wrong with that, and as you say there are some really decent, honest people doing this.  But this is one messed-up situation.

    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." - John F. Kennedy

    by Dem Beans on Fri May 09, 2014 at 11:43:30 AM PDT

    •  i support the real rescue organizations with my (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dem Beans, denise b, PeterHug

      whole heart!  the ones who tried to negotiate with sanderbeck are awesome - they are the true good guys!

      sanderbeck and her "organization" of one has now been removed from the national sheltie rescue site and is being isolated as more comes out about her operation.

      it seems that her board of directors dissolved the rescue in 2012 and she operates it alone now - which, it would seem, is in violation of the irs requirement of a minimum of three board members to maintain non-profit status.

      there is much, much more to this story - we are just in the preliminary stages of digging out the information.

      people with prior dealings with her are stepping forward and it is all being forwarded to veronica and her lawyer.

      unfortunately, there is a little girl who doesn't understand what is happening to her in the middle - dogs DO feel emotion and loss and sadness... and piper is the true victim here!

      thank you for your work with paws in need... of the 65+ dogs and a horse and birds, etc. i've rescued - i never asked for a penny nor did i take it for the vet bills, the food and care.  that was also my doing what needed to be done - like you know so well.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 12:12:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I feel terrible for the dog. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie

        She must be so frightened after 3 days in a shelter and then handed off to a stranger.  I'm sure she would much rather be home in familiar surroundings with her own family.  Let us know his this is settled.

        If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." - John F. Kennedy

        by Dem Beans on Fri May 09, 2014 at 12:20:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i will not be letting this go - and i'm looking (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dem Beans, denise b

          into how to organize to get laws regarding microchipping identification codified in all 50 states - as well as working on regulations that ALL rescues must contact prior owners where that information is available to them if the dog is not abused or neglected (even then, if a dog has been running, appearances can be deceiving!)

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 12:30:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  here is a copy of the post by the utah sheltie (0+ / 0-)

    rescue organization that attempted to mediate this situation:

    Sheltie Rescue of Utah
    Friends and colleagues in Sheltie Rescue,

    It is with heavy heart that I hereby announce that I am no longer able to try to negotiate a mutually satisfactory resolution to the situation involving the Sheltie named Piper, currently (and legally) in the possession of Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue (COSR), but claimed by the people who were her former legal owners before she was taken in by an animal control facility in Ohio and turned over to COSR.

    I have spent upwards of 80 hours of my own personal time, to the neglect of my day job and other responsibilities, attempting to resolve the situation. I persuaded the former owners and their supporters to remove inflammatory material from FaceBook, web sites, and various social media sites in the hopes that would persuade COSR to negotiate in good faith. The result was that COSR set further conditions on their willingness to even start discussions. When that was followed by a break-in at the home of COSR's director, COSR had much more serious concerns on their minds and would not talk with me.

    I offered COSR to take care of Piper, to remove one or two significant sources of stress, to reimburse the costs associated with rescuing Piper from animal control and the costs of installing a security system at the director's home to eliminate their financial burden, and to ensure that COSR received profuse and public praise for their role in saving Piper's life and getting her back to her former home. However, no offers that I made were even acknowledged, except that I was criticized for further endangering Piper by transporting her halfway across the country (regardless of my having said multiple times that Piper would not leave Ohio and that I have a volunteer nearby who would pick Piper up). None of my offers for financial assistance or to remove the source of so much stress were acknowledged except in a way to tell me that they were so stressed that they couldn't talk to me.

    The National Sheltie Rescue Network (NSRN) has done everything in its power to support COSR and its director, including offering to act as an intermediary, provide financial support, etc., but was completely unsuccessful in achieving the desired results. Consequently, NSRN has severed its relationship with COSR unless and until COSR is able to work with NSRN to reach a win-win solution to this issue. NSRN's mission is to support Sheltie rescue across the country and cannot have that mission jeopardized by a single organization or person who is unwilling to support the greater good over personal biases.

    I am deeply disappointed that I was unable to effect a resolution of this situation that would have resulted in literally every party being satisfied, but the unwillingness of one party to even discuss the offers made toward that end made it a fool's errand at best. I have come to doubt that there was ever any hope of Piper going back home and that the ever-increasing demands being made were little more than a delaying tactic.

    I want to make three things absolutely clear: First, I do not believe by any stretch of the imagination that COSR is doing or will ever do anything that they believe would harm Piper. Second, I am absolutely convinced that the precipitous (and very egregious!) escalation of the situation to public sites and pages contributed greatly to COSR's unwillingness to discuss Piper's return to her former owners. And, finally, there is absolutely, 100% NO QUESTION about whether or not COSR has operated within Ohio state law -- they unquestionably have operated legally in this matter; whether they have acted ethically (or, if you prefer, morally) is something each of you will have to decide for yourselves.

    I also wish to thank those of you who trusted in my honesty and integrity, my willingness to invest everything I could into reaching a solution, and my push for a win-win solution instead of a winner-take-all outcome. I am sorry that I was ultimately unsuccessful in achieving your hoped-for resolution.

    I wish everybody concerned the very best of luck in resolving this situation. I urge EVERYBODY to act and speak with respect, with civility, and always legally. Threats of violence, speech that is slanderous or libelous, and criminal acts are unacceptable, no matter what else is going on. Perhaps, if everybody involved conducts themselves as adults, a solution can eventually be achieved. But I will not be a part of it.

    With great sadness and deep regrets,
    Jim Melton
    (on behalf of the National Sheltie Rescue Network)

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 12:20:51 PM PDT

    •  oh, and many of us disagree with the "legally" (0+ / 0-)

      assumption - there is serious room for dispute in the ohio code for that, specifically regarding the required hold time that was not followed AND the fact that the director and asst director were fired for mismanagement during this period.

      this is by no means a clear cut legal dispute - even the case law cited by this research into animal law (Legal Rights and Duties in Lost Pet Disputes, by christopher berry published by the michigan state college of law) discusses replevin action to recover a lost pet (section 4) where the courts sided with the original owner.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 12:26:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm so sorry to hear this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      edrie
      I am absolutely convinced that the precipitous (and very egregious!) escalation of the situation to public sites and pages contributed greatly to COSR's unwillingness to discuss Piper's return to her former owners.
      Why? Because of the perpetrator's blind pigheadedness? It's now the fault of the people who were rightfully outraged and said so?

      Some people can just never, ever admit to being wrong, can they? Her Facebook page is gone, her website is gone. Has she gone into hiding rather than just give the dog back?

      •  yes, she has gone into hiding. the national (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        denise b

        sheltie rescue and ohio sheltie club and many more rescues are disassociating themselves from anything to do with her.  

        what makes us wonder is the anti-breeder sentiment some AR types in rescue have - they will do anything to spay or neuter a show dog that comes through their hands and admit to it freely.

        sanderbeck's comment that SHE can determine where a "better" home for piper lies is just unmitigated arrogance!  many people now are scrutinizing her non-profit and there are many discrepancies showing up.  the non-profit corporation (according to the linkdin profile) was disbanded in late 2012 and is now soley run by her.  that is a real problem with the non-profit status - and she is not filing necessary tax information required when a certain number of dogs go through her rescue.

        there are major problems here - and they are all being unearthed because of her stupidity in not turning over a loved and owned and cared for dog!

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 09:40:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It isn't just rescues that make money (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edrie, Greyhound

    when selling "rescued" animals.

    A friend's cats were removed because of a complaint by a rival breeder. Her home was fine, but she ended up spending a year in jail (subject to a lawsuit she filed later against the county-employed vet who confiscated her animals).

    Turns out some of the confiscated animals were sold by the local animal shelter, since all were fairly rare, very gorgeous, very well-taken-care-of grand champions and regional winners and their offspring.

    All because of one rival who didn't like having friend's cats beat her cats.

    I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

    by woolibaar on Fri May 09, 2014 at 02:31:30 PM PDT

    •  that's just ugly - as bad as what is happening (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PeterHug

      here.  fortunately, the people who were running the franklin county shelter have been fired for gross mismanagement - but that still hasn't brought piper home.

      i'll be doing much more on this in the coming days.  something is terribly amiss - why this woman who has this rescue hasn't returned piper is puzzling - we think perhaps she may have already spayed piper in spite of being told NOT to and that she would be subject to a lawsuit if she had.  the only way to prove she hasn't is to return the dog - and, frankly, the main concern is getting piper home.

      oh, as for the spaying - she is infertile - she isn't spayed for health concerns!

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Fri May 09, 2014 at 03:30:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My best wishes for getting Piper home. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edrie

        I think I agree - she is probably spayed and or in bad shape. I'll keep my fingers crossed for a good outcome!

        I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

        by woolibaar on Sat May 10, 2014 at 12:19:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i'll be updating with a new report this sunday... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          denise b

          this is far from over!  the shelter worker who delivered her to sanderbeck said she was in EXCELLENT condition when she was picked up - so, whatever her condition, it is on sanderbeck now!

          this is NOT going away!  facebook sheltie owners, rescue organizations have all turned on this woman for what she is doing and no one is about to let up the pressure - including the owner's lawyer!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sat May 10, 2014 at 02:13:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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