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This week the fearless Geek Girl site The Mary Sue broke a story that has a lot of fans wanting to yell "HULK SMASH!"  On one level it's just a guy you might never have heard of insulting a character you might never have heard of.  But on another level it has ramifications on what you're going to be seeing in movie theaters next summer.

A podcast called Scriptnotes was interviewing a panel of screenwriters who were responsible for some of the biggest recent and upcoming comic book movies before a live audience.  Naturally, the topic of discussion centered on upcoming projects with the panelists giving enough information to tease the audience without giving too much away.  At one point, the interviewers randomly threw out some comic book characters to each panelist and asked how they would approach developing that character for the screen.

WARNING for those with sensitive dispositions:  vulgar language and really stupid comments ahead:

Here is what writer David S. Goyer had to say:

Craig Mazin: The real name for She-Hulk was Slut-Hulk. That was the whole point. Let’s just make this green chick with enormous boobs. And she’s Hulk strong but not Hulk massive, right? … She’s real lean, stringy…

David S. Goyer: She’s still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE.

Mazin: The whole point of She-Hulk was just to appeal sexistly to ten-year-old boys. Worked on me.

Goyer: I have a theory about She-Hulk. Which was created by a man, right? And at the time in particular I think 95% of comic book readers were men and certainly almost all of the comic book writers were men. So the Hulk was this classic male power fantasy. It’s like, most of the people reading comic books were these people like me who were just these little kids getting the shit kicked out of them every day… And so then they created She-Hulk, right? Who was still smart… I think She-Hulk is the chick that you could fuck if you were Hulk, you know what I’m saying? … She-Hulk was the extension of the male power fantasy. So it’s like if I’m going to be this geek who becomes the Hulk then let’s create a giant green porn star that only the Hulk could fuck.

Okay, so who is She-Hulk really?  Well, for starters, she's the Hulk's cousin, fer pity's sake.  She was created during the '70s when Marvel was trying to create more female characters.  It's also been said that Marvel Corporate wanted a distaff version of Hulk because they were afraid that if the popular TV series based on the comic created such a character first, Marvel wouldn't hold the rights to her.

Jennifer Walters needed a massive blood transfusion and because of her rare blood type, the only person readily available to donate was her cousin Bruce Banner; and as a result she gained his Hulk-like strength and pigmentation.  In her earliest appearances she was angry and her comic was titled SAVAGE SHE-HULK, but her temperament soon mellowed from Angry Feminist to Assertive Feminist and she developed her own personality distinct from the Hulk's.  

During the 1980s, writer and artist John Byrne made her a supporting character in the FANTASTIC FOUR, and after leaving that book created a new title for her, SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK.  Byrne's She-Hulk was less angry than the savage 70s version; she was good-natured with a joy of life and a sense of fun.  Unlike her cousin Bruce, who considers the Hulk to be a curse, Jennifer enjoys being She-Hulk.  More recently, writer Dan Slott has written a SHE-HULK series focusing on her other job; when She-Hulk is not working with the Avengers, she has a day job as an attorney, often involved in super-related cases.

Now, granted, She-Hulk is sometimes portrayed as a wild and uninhibited party-girl, so perhaps there's a little truth to Goyer's superficial dismissal of the character; but he hardly does her justice; and there are female super-heroes who dress far sluttier than she does, (I'm looking at you, Power Girl!)

But who is David Goyer that we should care if he doesn't know his comic book heroines?  He wrote the screenplay for Batman Begins and worked on the other films in the Christopher Nolan Batman series.  He also wrote the screenplay for Man of Steel, the movie that made Superman dark and edgy, and will be writing the upcoming Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice and the long awaited Justice League movie. He's considered a Hot Screenwriter, and the cinematic version of the DC Universe has been put in his hands.

It's rumored that BvS is going to include Wonder Woman, something a lot of fans have been clamoring for.  (Warner Bros. keeps insisting that moviegoers won't be interested in a film with a female lead).  But given that he likes making things dark and edgy, and given the attitude he shows towards female characters in this week's interview, I have to wonder if this will be a good thing.

Originally posted to quarkstomper on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:35 PM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  On bleedingcool.com (16+ / 0-)

    one of the posters pointed out something interesting about the way the She-Hulk had evolved since her very early Savage She-Hulk title.  In contrast to the Hulk who was mostly a rampaging monster with child-like intelligence, Jen Walters became a more self assured, confident, version of herself, retaining her intelligence when she hulked out.

    Goyer's kond of an ass with nothing more than superficial knowledge of the She-Hulk character and mythos.  More revealing is if he's considered a 'hot screenwriter' that says a lot about Hollywood.  The good movies he's been a part of have either been good in spite of a mediocre story (Blade), or have been cribbed from the best parts or Frank Miller, Jeph Loeb, and Tim Sale's work in comics (Nolan's Bat Trilogy).

  •  Because they were afraid that ... (10+ / 0-)

    Marvel wouldn't hold the rights to her. Sort of sounds like the GOP's approach to women.

    •  Who would, Devaiant Art? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howarddream

      some other spin off development? So she's been around now the better part of a half century, and  somewhere between Chaos and Mythos she has developed some attitudes and personality as well as artistic licenses that sold comics and now influence other characters.

      "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

      by rktect on Tue May 27, 2014 at 12:33:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She-Hulk belongs to Marvel, no one else (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        howarddream

        Her rights weren't sold when they were so desperate for cash they let the film rights to Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, and the X-Men go to other studios.  

        This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

        by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:49:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Depending on the exact wording of their contract (0+ / 0-)

          I could see FOX trying to at least claim shared rights, like the Quicksilver / Scarlet Witch situation, because she's shown up in a lot of Fantastic Four Media. But I'm not really an expert on that sort of stuff.

          •  So far they haven't (0+ / 0-)

            Not to mention that their Fantastic Four movies were just terrible, which is why the proposed reboot has an all-new cast and creative team.

            This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

            by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 08:07:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  white blitz is correct. (0+ / 0-)

      Back in the late Seventies, Marvel created female versions of Spider-Man (Spider-Woman) and the Hulk (She-Hulk) because they were concerned about losing the copyright to female versions of them.

      In the case of Spider-Woman, Filmation was producing "Tarzan And The Super-Seven," a Saturday morning cartoon that would've featured a character called Spider-Woman. Marvel beat them to the punch by creating their own Spider-Woman in the comics and that forced Filmation to name their character Web-Woman. (Sorry, I don't know how to embed pics on DK, but you can Google her.)

      As for She-Hulk, Marvel feared that the producers of the "Incredible Hulk" TV show would follow what the makers of the 6 Million Dollar Man did with Bionic Woman and create a female Hulk. And so She-Hulk was born.

  •  Is he criticizing She-Hulk (8+ / 0-)

    Or is he criticizing the mentality that he thinks produced her?  Or praising it?

    Without knowing the back-story, it would have fit into established narratives about gender that She-Hulk was a sexual fantasy created by male writers to excite fanboys, made greater than her origins by gifted writers such as John Byrne.  Would anyone have been surprised if it had been revealed that She-Hulk was inspired by a writer's infatuation with Captain Kirk and Orion slave girls?  Goyer's comment taps into stereotypes about (male) comic book fans.

    •  Goyer's view and wherever it comes from (4+ / 0-)

      is a view that is quite commonplace.  I remember in the 90's one company explcitly admitting that their shots of a scantily clad woman in rather awkward posititions were part of them 'servicing their audience'.

      Even a few weeks ago one of the major comic book news sites published a column that dissected the cover issue of a newly launching DC title, Anatomy of a Bad Cover.  The article points out many bad storytelling elements of it but the standout is the fact that there's a 16 year old girl with cantaloupe sized breasts.  I'd say the reaction by a lot of readers were predictible but I'd be lying.  There were thousands of comments to the article with many so angry and abusive that the site owner basically culled the message boards completely.  He deleted everything including all user accounts and restarted from scratch.

      •  My question is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RiveroftheWest, quarkstomper

        Was Goyer expressing a view of how he thinks things actually are or how he thinks they should be?  When he says that most writers/readers were male "at the time" that Shulkie was created, does that show an awareness that the reader demographic has changed and pure fan service of adolescent wankers is no longer appropriate?

        Without having listened to the podcast (I don't listen to podcasts), I can't say.  From the exchange I read about Martian Manhunter, it sounds possible that he isn't interested in catering to the part of the audience who thinks are drawn to She-Hulk for sexual reasons.

        As for CBR, the reaction was not completely predictable, but not surprising at all.

        •  I have read the article and discusson of it .. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          quarkstomper, Ellid

          .. elsewhere (IO9 i think, or the A. V. Club), and it is seems it is Goyers view of how things are and therefore should be.

          Apart from that, as an manga/anime fan, i thin a bit of fan service here and there doesn't if it is no the only thing the story is about ...

          "This isn't America" - Zenkai Girl

          by mythatsme on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:32:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My impression of Goyer here (9+ / 0-)

          is that this is what he sees in the character and thus would write the character based on those traits.  Those traits are wrong of course which reveals to a whole lot about his thinking.

          Not every character is created for the best reasons or have the best traits.  In every form of writing we have crap characters with crap character motivations that are either naive, racist, sexist, or just plain stupid.  This applies to non fiction as well, just look at the way Augustus Caesar's wife Livia is portrayed by Suetonius.  A good writer can easily take those initial traits and evolve them into something more well rounded and is a better reflection of society.  A mediocre writer will try to do the same though might very well fail.  A bad writer won't even notice it.

          Goyer's real problem here in my eyes is that he believes this is a character with poor traits and thinks it's just fine and dandy.  In his mind since She-Hulk was a one dimensional monster/sexpot fantasy then that's how he'd treat her.  That just makes me really grateful that he's not doing any writing for characters that I like.

        •  He Isn't Interested in the Characters, Period (8+ / 0-)

          There is a point of view, and it has a fair amount of validity, that writers should not be overly-constrained by a comic book's continuity; and that whatever you do, you'll have some cranky middle-aged fanboy grousing that the Incredible Hulk's first name is Bruce, not David or that you made the "S" on Superman's chest the wrong color.  Catering to the obsessive continuity freaks leads only to madness, and I would agree with Goyer -- if this is what he is saying -- that a strong story has to take precedence over the bleatings of a few handful of nit-pickers.

          But the characters have to remain true to their essential selves; otherwise they become unrecognizable.  This is more than griping over the number of buttons on Captain Marvel's tunic; this is about who the character is.

          Granted, I haven't seen Man of Steel.  Many people liked it; many people hated it.  One clip I've seen that struck me as true to the character was when Superman tells Lois that the insignia on his chest is a Kryptonian symbol for hope.  A hopeless fanboy will tell you that no, it's actually the family emblem for the House of El, but that's no matter; "Hope" fits in perfectly with Superman's character.  But the impression I've gotten is that in the rest of the movie, Superman doesn't seem to believe in Hope; or at least that his writer doesn't.  Again, that's just an impression.

          Another example.  I remember when Batman Forever came out, I saw a "Making of" special on TV in which at one point Tommy Lee Jones was talking about his character Two-Face, a villain with half his face handsome and the other half hideously scarred.  Jones told how director Joel Schumacher had explained the character to him:  "It's all about Good and Evil!  How there's good in people and bad!"  Which is true, as far as it goes, but an extremely superficial view.  The point of the character of Two-Face is not just that he has a good side and a bad side -- that is obvious -- but that he regards Good and Evil as the results of random chance and delegates all moral decisions to the flip of his coin.  The director only got Two-Face on the most superficial level, and that one of the reasons (one of many) that the film stunk.

          When Goyer mocks anyone who would actually know who Martian Manhunter is, let alone care about the character -- and keep in mind Goyer is going to be writing the Justice League, a team which the Manhunter has been a member of for nearly its entire history -- he's not just saying that he doesn't give a fig about the immature tantrums of overgrown fanboys; he's also saying that he doesn't give a fig about the characters themselves.

          Read my webcomic, "Hannibal Tesla Adventure Magazine" at http://www.kurtoonsonline.com/

          by quarkstomper on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:14:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  "Angry and abusive" is putting it mildly (0+ / 0-)

        The critic (who was female) received DEATH THREATS and was told over and over that the posters knew where she lived and they would make sure to rape her.  It was absolutely disgusting.

        This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

        by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:50:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This kind of reasoning is why DC (7+ / 0-)

    is losing fans in droves. Fortunately, She-Hulk belongs to Marvel, and I have every reason to believe they will do her justice.

    "The Democrats are the lesser evil and that has to count for something. Good and evil aren't binary states. All of us are both good and evil. Being less evil is the trajectory of morality." --SC

    by tb92 on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:13:07 PM PDT

  •  Something of an antidote... (17+ / 0-)

    though I think you're going to have to click on it to see it in all its "glory."

  •  When it comes to Female Superheroes... (5+ / 0-)

    The first 'super' thing that seems to come to mind for most artists is an amazingly hot bod.

    One of the telling points about Watchmen was how the character of Laurie Juspeczyk / Silk Spectre changes her costume to something a bit more practical, given the exigencies of physical combat. And "Silk Spectre"? What's in a name?

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Mon May 26, 2014 at 04:47:33 AM PDT

    •  Something that has been driving me nuts (14+ / 0-)

      is how all, and I do mean ALL, the reviews for Scarlett Johansson's portrayal of the Black Widow in the recent Captain America movie talk about her sexiness, her slinking about in black leather, and how sultry she is.  Never mind that she isn't Cap's love interest (she spends the entire film trying to get up dates for him with other women), she doesn't wear black leather (she wears either a SHIELD duty uniform or civilian clothing that's form-fitting but nothing out of the ordinary), and that the only time she comes close to being "sultry" is when she says "hey, sailor" to a terrorist long enough to put him off balance - and then she knocks him cold.

      It's as if the reviewers (virtually all of them male) are so programmed to see a female character as the sexy vixen that they're incapable of seeing beyond that.  Johansson gives a beautifully modulated, ultimately very vulnerable performance as a spy who has to reconstruct her entire life and reason for existence, but you'd never know that from the reviews.

      It's also notable that the male reviewers completely missed the fact that there are no, repeat, NO, "male gaze" shots of any female character in the movie.  There are, however, several shots of Chris Evans' shoulders and chest, and one bare-chested shot of Sebastian Stan, that amply qualify as FEMALE gaze shots.  

      Of course no one mentioned those....

      This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

      by Ellid on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:34:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Black Widow should be the next Marvel hit. (11+ / 0-)

        Talking with a friend today and both of us are a bit pissed that Black Widow seems to be used only as a foil for the hulky guys and not on her own merits.

        We want a Black Widow movie and I betcha a lot of women out there would agree with us. Enough of these 'tough' dudes, how about a real woman for a change?

        Marvel would make great inroads into the female viewer contingent with such a flick. And, with the very real possibility of our next President being female, it behooves Marvel to get with the plan!

        Peace.

        •  A lot of men would agree too. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, RiveroftheWest, k9disc

          Would also like to see a Mystique movie.  How many Wolverine movies have we had now?

          Rooting for Democrats!!!

          by SquirmyRooter on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:38:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Speaking of Avengers, Diana Rigg as Emma Peel (5+ / 0-)

          Certainly pleasant to look at - but you didn't have any doubts about her competence, intelligence or determination. My understanding was that Diana Rigg in person was quite matter of fact about her appearance in real life, making no big deal about it.

          I remember just a glimpse of one the early black and white episodes where she ended up in some kind of harem outfit, and at one point as she is exiting a room, reaches around in back and gives her harem panties a tug higher. It was a nice visual editorial on the outfit.

          My sister started laughing hysterically when she caught that.

          "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

          by xaxnar on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:06:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rigg Often Wore A Fetishy Dog Collar (0+ / 0-)

            I had a big crush on her, but her fighting skills looked more some of seizure than a specific martial art.

            Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

            by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 01:04:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Often? I thought it was only the one episode (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xaxnar, RiveroftheWest

              Where her get up in turn inspired the entire "Hellfire Club" story arc in the X-Men comics in the 1980's.

              This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

              by Ellid on Mon May 26, 2014 at 02:34:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It wasn't about Diana Rigg... (0+ / 0-)

                It's been well-documented that the Hellfire Club and the X-Men event Inferno were, in fact, inspired by Chris Claremonth's BDSM sexuality.

                FYI...if you Google/Bing/Yahoo search for Hellfire Club and Inferno, be forewarned the results will most likely be NSFW.

                Hellfire Club is a very famous/infamous BDSM club based in Chicago (and remember that the debut of Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost in her BDSM outfit also took place in Chicago). No coincidence there.

                Inferno is the Hellfire Club's yearly get-together/carnival of BDSM activities.

                Also, the notorious Uncanny X-Men arc where Storm got a mohawk and started wearing black leather bondage gear? The whole look was "inspired" by Claremont's favorite African-American BDSM dominatrix. (Which you can also search online, too.)

          •  Diana Rigg was was not a crush in spite of her (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xaxnar

            intelligence.  She was a crush because her beauty and brains (not to mention the toughness of her character) made her a unique and irresistable package.

            She was Steed's partner, not his sidekick, and there is something very attractive about that.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:37:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Really really agree with you. (7+ / 0-)

          Thinking back to seeing the first Avengers movie on opening night, that first scene in which Black Widow was tied up and being tortured.  My wife, in the most bitter tone I have ever heard from her, said aloud, "Really, Joss?  Really?"  

          It appeared at first that the scene was being set up to feature one of the male Avengers coming in to save her.  Of course, it turned out to be a typical Whedon misdirection and Black Widow was actually in control of the entire situation, as you would expect her to be.  The moment that this became clear, there was a collective sigh of relief from every female in the theater, along with half of the males.

          I suppose we have Joss Whedon to thank for Black Widow not being reduced to a plot device or love interest.  But let's take the next step.  She is every bit as interesting as the male Avengers who had had their own movies.  There really needs to be a Black Widow movie.  Let Joss direct it, or hell, maybe even an actual female director.

          Rooting for Democrats!!!

          by SquirmyRooter on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:14:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Black Widow was perhaps the most important (6+ / 0-)

            character in the whole movie - she brings in the Hulk, she beats the crap out of the Russian gangsters, she turns the tables on Loki, deprograms Barton, and closes the portal - yet NONE of the major reviews said anything about her performance, or her importance to the story.  NONE.  

            Even worse, a lot of the neckbearded fanboys who populate on-line message boards not only refuse to acknowledge this, they insist that Black Widow is completely unnecessary to the franchise and that Johansson should be ditched because she's pregnant.  "She'll have to look after her baby, so she can't make any more of the movies," more than one has whined - yet not a single word from any of them about how Chris Hemsworth, Robert Downey Jr., and Jeremy Renner, all of whom have young children, will be too busy to film.

            It's appalling.

            This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

            by Ellid on Mon May 26, 2014 at 02:38:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  also (6+ / 0-)

              In the "put down the scepter" scene, when the alarm goes off, everyone else in the room looks over at the computer sounding the alarm - Black Widow is the only person in the room staying attentive to the person she's identified as the potential threat.  Everyone else gets immediately distracted.

              She was great. Want more.  

              •  I didn't notice that (4+ / 0-)

                But you're absolutely right, Natasha's the only one who isn't distracted.

                I think she and Cap are the two who are the best at reading another person, her because she's a trained spy and psychological manipulator, him because he's a natural leader who's had to make snap judgments (think of the way that he immediately trusts Natasha's call on Clint Barton, and the way he shows no fear of Bruce Banner).  No wonder those two make such a great team in the current movie.

                This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

                by Ellid on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:13:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I definitely want to see a Black Widow movie (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest, andalusi

          I'd also love to see a Captain Marvel movie.  Carol Danvers would be spectacular.

          This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

          by Ellid on Mon May 26, 2014 at 02:34:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd love a Monica Rambeau movie (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ellid

            Though she's not Captain Marvel anymore (Spectrum, I think?).

            The new Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel would be great, too.

            Honestly, Marvel should just give all three Ms./Captain Marvel characters their own movie.

          •  Marvel Studios isn't gonna make a female-led film (0+ / 0-)

            At least, not until Warner Brothers spins off Gal Gadot's WW after Justice League. They're going to sit on their hands and wait & see if a successful WW film can be made--preferably one that can sell millions of action figures, toy vehicles, video games and other crap.

            In the interest of fairness, all the major studios are guilty of giving female-led action pics short shrift. As a gay man living and working in Hollywood, I know all too well how sexist, homophobic and racist this business can be.

            And I think it only drives the point further home when you read about how Marvel Studios would "like" to make Black Panther, but are even gun-shy about doing that. This is why all their solo films so far are nothing but white, heterosexual male leads.

            Fans love to trot out Aliens and Buffy The Vampire Slayer as examples that audiences will support female-led action pics. But Aliens was 1 film 28 years ago and Buffy was on the WB (now the CW) and was never a monster ratings smash. The reality is, it is insanely difficult to make a successful female-led actioner.

            Most of the time, female actioners are a very small niche in the overwhelmingly white male-dominated entertainment industry. And when white straight males do try to produce female action shows, you get awful results like the disastrous Adrienne Palicki "Wonder Woman" pilot that was widely panned by everybody.

            Meanwhile, even successful openly gay male writers like Allan Heinberg can't write a Wonder Woman TV pilot that networks are comfortable with and willing to greenlight.

            Can a successful female-led action pic as big as anything featuring Tom Cruise or Liam Neeson be made? Yes. The problem is, you have to persuade writers and directors who can write well for women to make them and then persuade Hollywood studios to finance and market them.

            Cheesy, low-budget schlockfests like "Ultraviolet" or the "Resident Evil" films aside, female actioners that are huge hits at the box office are few and far between. (And no, Angelina Jolie can't be expected to re-purpose herself into an action star when she is aiming to write & direct more serious Oscar fare like "In The Land Of Blood And Honey.")

            •  I wouldn't be so sure (0+ / 0-)

              The Agent Carter miniseries may not be the same as a feature film, but my hunch is that iMarvel is testing the waters for a potential female superhero film lead.  They took another small step in Iron Man 3 where Pepper Potts not only isn't saved by Stark, she saves him (and proves she is just as capable of using Iron Man armor).

              I think it'll still be a while, but not that Marvel's going to just sit and wait to see how a Wonder Woman movie fares.

      •  um (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stude Dude, Gay CA Democrat
        Chris Evans' shoulders and chest, and one bare-chested shot of Sebastian Stan
        also qualify as male gaze shots.

        just sayin

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:02:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i did go to your link (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gay CA Democrat

          and saw that the "male gaze" is defined as heterosexual

          i happen to think that is outdated, and maybe was never true

          so long as there have been male bodies on display there have been men looking at them

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:04:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  "It's rumored..."? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quarkstomper, RiveroftheWest

    Really? Where have you been? It was announced last year that Gal Gadot had been cast as Diana/Wonder Woman.

    •  I've Been In A Cave (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest, MT Spaces

      Perhaps "allegedly" would have been more accurate.  But you are correct that it has been announced that Wonder Woman will be in the film and that Gal Gadot will play her.

      At The Official Website for the movie we can see how important she will be to the film

      Read my webcomic, "Hannibal Tesla Adventure Magazine" at http://www.kurtoonsonline.com/

      by quarkstomper on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:41:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Semi-Related... (3+ / 0-)

      Read my webcomic, "Hannibal Tesla Adventure Magazine" at http://www.kurtoonsonline.com/

      by quarkstomper on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:42:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But they STILL have not greenlighted (0+ / 0-)

      a solo Wonder Woman film, nor are they going to make such a film until after Batman v. Superman AND the Justice League movie have come out.  That means we need to wait at least until 2018 or 2019.

      Too long, DC.  Too.  Damn.  Long.

      This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

      by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:58:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Blame WB. Not DC. (0+ / 0-)

        The movie studio, not the comic book company, makes all final calls on what movies get greenlit.

        And putting the blame solely on WB/DC's shoulders is just what Disney/Marvel wants you to do--because it saves them from having to address why they haven't offered Scarlett Johanssen her own Black Widow film franchise.

        Or why they allegedly have a Carol Danvers' Captain Marvel script they are sitting on, but won't go greenlight because they're afraid moviegoers won't see it.

        You would think Marvel's string of blockbuster successes with comic book movies would embolden them to diversify and pursue film franchises featuring women and minority characters from their vast library.

        Instead, what are they giving us? Doctor Strange and Ant-Man...2 more white heterosexual males.

        •  Valid points, but not quite (0+ / 0-)

          DC is evidently working pretty closely with WB on this series.  They're also the ones who erased Clark Kent's relationship with Lois Lane in the New 52 line (which is much less than 52 given all the cancellations) and reduced Wonder Woman to Superman's love interest in the comics.  

          As for Marvel...I wasn't aware of any talk about a completed Captain Marvel script, only that Katee Sackhoff had been asked to keep her first quarter 2014 calendar clear.  Do you have a source?  I love Captain Marvel but hadn't heard this rumor.

          Finally...they haven't officially announced any of the Phase III movies except Ant-Man (which has run into director problems) and Cap 3.  AFAIK they haven't yet officially announced any of the other movies, including Avengers 3.  There have been persistent rumors about a Black Panther movie instead of Doctor Strange, spurred by location shooting in South Africa for Avengers 2 (Wakanda, anyone?).  I expect we'll know more after Comic Con, so keeping the pressure on Kevin Feige could be what gets us the Black Widow/Captain Marvel/Black Panther movie.

          Regardless, though... at least the women in the MCU have by and large been well developed characters instead of stereotypes.  I still see red whenever I think of the scene in Man of Steel where an Army captain simpers over what a hottie Superman is....

          This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

          by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:45:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thx for the reply. Here you go... (0+ / 0-)

            The Hollywood Reporter posted about the rumored Ms. Marvel script last year:

            http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/...

            RE: Doctor Strange
            Kevin Feige told Huffington Post in the next 3, maybe 4 years...

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            RE: DC working with WB
            Of course they work closely together. WB owns DC. Ergo, you will work closely with your boss on projects for properties you manage.

            RE: the status of Wonder Woman at DC
            DC has been doing things to put a huge spotlight on WW. Do I agree with all of them? No. But there's no denying that WW is front & center @ DC. And there are still large numbers of male comic books fans who refuse to read anything with Wonder Woman in it simply because they don't like female books. DC is trying to force fans to read more WW stories. While I would have chosen a different path, putting talented superstar writers like Charles Soule on a Superman/WW book is hardly giving her short shrift.

            RE: Marvel's lack of female-led pics
            The simple fact is that Marvel is very protective of their reputation for success and they aren't going to do any female-led pics until if & when WB has success with WW. That is not a profile in courage no matter how much you love their films.

            If Marvel were as bold as they pretend to be, they'd take the Ms. Marvel script they created and greenlight it. But actions speak louder than words.

            In Marvel's case, the only characters who they're giving solo film franchises to are white straight men.

            That is a matter of fact, not opinion.

            Also, Gail Simone's Batgirl would like to have a few words with you about well-developed female characters at DC. So would Marc Andreyko's Manhunter. And Greg Rucka's Question. (I could go on, but you get my drift.)

            :)

  •  My first thought about Goyer's comment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quarkstomper, RiveroftheWest

    was that it was pretty obviously right - about the character's origin - and a superficial, but defensible criticism of the character in general.(if he were not a reader)  But his cavalier attitude is definitely a problem. He was asked how he would treat the character, not how contemptible he considered the original intent of the creators.
    BTW, let's hope that no one's told him that Wonder Woman was created by a bondage fetishist as a fantasy character, and should anyone suggest giving him one of the female Kryptonians...

  •  Apocryphal (3+ / 0-)

    But I heard that Marvel wanted to nail down the trademark before they lost it to some opportunist after they got wind of Benny Hill's gender swapped parody of the Hulk.

    Which of course ended with a chase set to "Yakety Sax"....

    "If this Studebaker had anymore Atomic Space-Age Style, you'd have to be an astronaut with a geiger counter!"

    by Stude Dude on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:45:39 AM PDT

  •  Goyer's POV is what's wrong with H'wood, (4+ / 0-)

    because the Faux-Noise-Target demographic (ten year old boys and those whose spiritual and mental development arrested at that age) dominates their thinking: that's who they want to sell their ... excremental product ... to.

    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

    by BlackSheep1 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:00:57 AM PDT

    •  That could also explain why Marvel has (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest

      done things differently with their cinematic universe.

      By the time they get through with everything they've got in production, much less planned out on the master calendar, anyone in that target demographic when Iron Man came out will have aged out of that target demographic.

      This is a movie series that has already lasted longer than the usual 6-year target for completing a doctorate. That takes more than twelve hours with no breaks to marathon.

      They are utterly dependent on the fans of the current swell still being interested in a few years and not writing the series off as 'that thing that was awesome in high school or college but makes no sense now', still getting other people interested in the movies, and shelling out for tickets and boxed sets.

      DC? Three movies in a series and then Batman reboots AGAIN so that nothing that happened in the films the last cohort in the demographic was into matters anymore?

      •  It's all about disposable $$$ (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority, Stude Dude

        and apparently the demo with the most of it is 12 years old, mentally.

        Some of those 12 year olds run studio companies in H'wood and NYC.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:35:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I give them more credit than that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stude Dude, bryduck

        From everything I've seen they have a master plan that not only extends their universe well into the future, but are making sure that it expands into television and animation as well as feature films.  They're doing something that's unique in film and television history, and as long as they stick to the program I think they'll be fine.

        This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

        by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:01:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The problem is Marvel is also white male dominated (0+ / 0-)

          Marvel has scripts for both Black Panther and the female Captain Marvel. It appears they are ever-so-slowly pursuing Black Panther, but at a snail's pace.

          Then there is the matter of Fox choosing to use Quicksilver over the openly Northstar when they needed a superspeed character.

          I understand people's seeing Marvel's success and how well Whedon developed Black Widow into a fully-realized character in Avengers as indicative of them being open to a wide range of characters.

          But the sad fact is they are just as stuck in the straight white male action hero mold as all the other studios. And they have no plans (and no guts either) when it comes to female-led action pics just like everyone else in Hollywood.

          •  Full scripts for Captain Marvel and Black Panther? (0+ / 0-)

            Do you have a source for this?  I haven't heard anything about actual completed scripts, only that these films are under consideration.

            As for Quicksilver instead of Northstar - different studio, so not really relevant.

            Finally - Black Widow is only one of several female characters that the MCU has done a great job with.  Peggy Carter made such a strong impression based on a fifteen minute short subject that she's getting her own miniseries this winter, after all.

            This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

            by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:49:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I posted links to the Hollywood Reporter article (0+ / 0-)

              in my other reply to you.

              Not sure if it was you, but I saw the comments about Avengers 2 filming in South Africa possibly being set-up for Black Panther. I've been reading similar things elsewhere myself.

              But still, they are very concerned about whether or not Panther can be as big as their straight white male-led film franchises. I'd like to see them be much more bold and lead the industry on this, but the fact is their bottom line is profit; not diversity.

              BP will probably get made at some point. As for Carol Danvers or Black Widow, I think it's safe to say Marvel simply will not greenlight solo films for them until after WB spins off WW into her own movie.

              Again, where's the initiative? Where's the diversity? So far, Marvel is only doing more straight white male action pics. That's hardly a daring or groundbreaking formula in cinema.

              Wake me when Marvel actually greenlights Black Panther or a female-led pic. I am not holding my breath.

              •  Wake me when there's more than a rumor (0+ / 0-)

                Of either a Black Panther or Captain Marvel script.

                As for female-led properties...at least Marvel is doing Agent Carter and Jessica Jones.  And Luke Cage was black the last time I looked.  These aren't feature films but they are greenlit, and it's a hell of a lot more than DC has done either in films or television, at least since Birds of Prey tanked.  

                :D

                This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

                by Ellid on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:16:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  They could make Shulkie (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    more FBB-like and be okay with me.

    I'm still sore over how Flexia and me got treated. During the '80s, let's hear from the ponytails about how she's too big and too busty to be commercial. Then the '90s rolls around and I can't get any farther than getting Heroesworlded and A-Bombed.

    Since then, InterStellar OverDrive is no longer an universe of buxom unless you're Didi, Winnie, one of Bast Clan. That's running off from Sci Fi Guy! which isn't a world of buxom. You have Tom, but she's a tweak on an Otaku's dream date, but after that the rare busty gal is a muffin-top on up because that's the way things were in 1977. OTOH, a Captain Saucer revival would be a world of buxom because Wingding, plus somebody else described it as "Hanna-Barbera meets Russ Meyer"! How can you not like that and I not run with that?

    I'm thinking that if I had to do the '80s over again, I wouldn't do any of the Milkmaids or the other uber boober stuff.

    I'm also was thinking about how Flexia and the like were gender swapped rescue fantasies. Plus how that could be deconstructed with Flexia dressing down that one too many ponytail insulting Revellia and finding it counter-productive in the longer run. Plus with more irony that Revellia is almost as formidable as her momma.

    "If this Studebaker had anymore Atomic Space-Age Style, you'd have to be an astronaut with a geiger counter!"

    by Stude Dude on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:06:59 AM PDT

  •  Well, a big strong Jinxian grrl.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...is probably cuter than a She-Thing!

    (Jinxian? See Larry Niven's Known Space, Jinx is a high-gravity satellite of a gas-giant planet that breeds incredibly massive and powerful people of all genders...they aren't green tho...)

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:42:55 AM PDT

  •  How Would Hollywood "Do" She-Hulk? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gay CA Democrat

    That is a tough task to take on.

    I guess find a mainstream actress to play Jennifer Walters, but then what?

    Do CGI for She-Hulk or find a female bodybuilder that can act?

    If you go the female bodybuilder route, how do you make up for the height issue? Most FBB's are in the 5'2"-5'8" range. She-Hulk is like 6'6" or 6'8".

    Or do you depict She-Hulk with lean muscle?

    Lots of issues to contend with.

    Great diary, btw.

    I miss Speaker Pelosi :^(

    by howarddream on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:19:57 AM PDT

    •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howarddream

      I have a hard time trying to think of writers, directors and producers in Hollywood that would be capable of creating a visually-believable She-Hulk that wouldn't border on jokes like the infamous "Man Hands" episode of Seinfeld.

      Because, y'know, it's really hilarious when women look or behave like men. :P

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