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Despite what you think is happening when you read antivaccination blogs, most people in the developed world vaccinate their children. And in the relatively undeveloped world, they are demanding more vaccines so that their children will live longer. In the USA alone, far less than 1% of children, 19-35 months, are completely unvaccinated. The problem, at least in the USA, is that those unvaccinated children tend to be clustered in small geographical areas where individuals who share the typical characteristics of many vaccine deniers tend to live.

The complication is that the herd immunity can break down rather quickly when the vaccination uptake drops below 80-90% in these clusters. And all it takes is one person carrying a vaccine preventable disease from an area, where it is endemic, to then start an outbreak or epidemic very quickly in one of these low vaccine uptake clusters. For a disease like measles, which is very contagious, it jumps from an infected person to unvaccinated individuals quite rapidly, sometimes before public health authorities can contain it. Measles is easily prevented with the MMRV vaccine (which also protects children against mumpsrubella, and chickenpox).

In a recent article published in Pediatrics, researchers investigated a measles outbreak in Minnesota in 2011. The authors, lead by Pamala Gahr of the Minnesota Department of Health, determined that the outbreak began when an unvaccinated 2-year-old travelled to Kenya, where he contracted the measles virus. Upon returning to the United States, the child developed a fever, cough and vomiting, some of the early signs and symptoms of measles. Unfortunately, prior to a diagnosis of measles, the child passed the virus on to three children in a child day-care center and another household member. The measles then spread from individual to individual within a low vaccine uptake area, a Somali immigrant community in the Minneapolis area. Eventually, more than 3,000 people were exposed to the disease.

According to the researchers, 21 cases of measles were identified. Of those, 16 individuals were not vaccinated, of whom 9 were age-eligible to be vaccinated with the MMRV (or MMR) vaccine. Of those nine children who were unvaccinated and contracted measles, seven were not vaccinated because of parental safety concerns. Gahr stated that this was consistent with a striking decline in MMR accept ache among Minnesota's large Somali population. For example, in 2004, over 90% of Somali children in Minnesota were on schedule with the MMR vaccines. By 2010, that rate had dropped to 54%.

I want to reiterate a small point, because it keeps showing up on the zombie tropes of the antivaccination crowd. Sixteen out of the 21 individuals who contract the measles virus were not vaccinated.

Even though the number of cases was relatively small, only 21, it was the largest outbreak in Minnesota in over 20 years. What's worse, many individuals thought that measles had been defeated in the USA (and it probably still isn't endemic to the country).

The Somali community in Minnesota is around 20-60 thousand, with many immigrants coming to Minnesota in the 1990's. Although the group is made up less of Somali-born individuals, and more US-born, many travel to Somalia and other nearby areas where measles is endemic. With the low vaccine uptake in this insular community, diseases contracted outside of the USA could get a toehold in this part of Minnesota. Measles is bad enough, but the situation could be worse someone brings back polio or some other vaccine preventable disease to the community.

Sadly, it appears that the thoroughly discredited nonsense from MrAndy Wakefield, who claimed that the MMR or MMRV vaccine caused autism, has taken root in the Somali community. Let's be clear about Andy Wakefield's lies about the MMR vaccine and autism. The Lancet, which first published Wakefield's paper, retracted it. The British Medical Journal, a respected peer-reviewed publication, and an investigative writer, Brian Deer, wrote about Wakefield's deceit and fraud, herehere, and here. And there are literally hundreds of peer-reviewed articles that thoroughly dismiss any link between vaccines and autism. Is this clear? If only I could convince Minnesota's Somali community to read all of these links.

Furthermore, I know there's a subset of people, especially in the antivaccination cult, who are convinced that measles is not that dangerous. But it actually is quite serious, especially if it broke out and spread before public health officials could contain it. According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the complications of measles are serious:

  • About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
  • Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result.
  • Diarrhea is reported in about 8% of cases.
  • These complications are more common among children under 5 years of age and adults over 20 years old.
  • As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia
  • About 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or with a neurodevelopmental disorder.)
  • For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it.
  • Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

Vaccine deniers constantly attempt to use anecdotes to claim "I don't remember measles being anything more than a rash." That's because, unless you're in your late 50's, vaccinations against measles prevented most outbreaks. Yes most kids who catch measles will show no complications. But it's the 30% who do have complications, and the 2 out of 1,000 who die, that are going to be noticed in a large outbreak. And it will be sad if it is one of your children. And remember, this disease can be transmitted to children who are too young to be vaccinated, so it can harm families who actually want to vaccinate their children. They may pay the ultimate price of a antivaccination caused epidemic.

Vaccinate your children against measles. It's the right thing to do. Because measles shouldn't be making a comeback in this modern world with modern medicine. It is a disease from a different time and era, something that my grandparents suffered, and not my children.

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Comment Preferences

    •  May not necessarily be true... (28+ / 0-)

      the community being described in this diary is a culturally-specific one, so this may not be an issue of refusing to accept facts, but more one of failing to address some culturally-specific beliefs and values in doing public health education.

      It is not always reasonable to assume willful ignorance when there may be reasonable forms of ignorance and ineffective cross-cultural communication at work.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 01:41:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Religion is the antithesis of critical thinking (17+ / 0-)

        By embracing religion they are choosing ignorance.

        I need your support, my paypal is:

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:01:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is a particularly nasty generalization. (12+ / 0-)

          Religious people are choosing ignorance?  Come on.

          •  They choose to believe in the unprovable (10+ / 0-)

            No different than believing in Bigfoot, ufo's, republican honesty...

            Or did you have concrete proof God exists you can link to us here?

            I'll take my words back if you can prove there is a God, because that is the only way you can claim my words above are not the truth.

            I need your support, my paypal is:

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:12:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Unproveable - (7+ / 0-)

              The existence of a God is unprovable.  The non-existence of a God is also unprovable.  I am personally agnostic about the issue.  I don't call people ignorant if they choose to make the leap of faith, like Kierkegaard.  Don't misunderstand - I am fully aware that committed religious people are often very ignorant, but many are not.

              •  Proving my comment. (6+ / 0-)

                People that believe in imaginary beings are not ready to understand the basic ideas that imaginary being was created to explain.

                I need your support, my paypal is:

                by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:33:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  People who believe that they can know with (0+ / 0-)

                  certainty what is ,essentially, unknowable might be described as ignorant on that particular point. It doesn't follow that they are generally ignorant.

                  Consider yourself for an example.

                  Nothing human is alien to me.

                  by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:58:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  People believe in the most amazing things (0+ / 0-)

                  Without any evidence whatsoever of the existence of that which is believed in.
                  String theory is lousy with such folks.
                  There's also a strong following for the graviton.

                  Now, scoff if you want on that snark, but much of string theory has zero evidence to support it.The same is true of the graviton.
                  That said, religions have even less evidence to support their claims.
                  Personally, I'm a deist. I don't believe in some being so utterly inept as to have to micromanage one single species on a fifth rate planet, on a ninth rate solar system, in a middling part of a sparse arm of one galaxy.
                  But, I have the belief that something triggered the big bang.
                  That something could have been some deity that refuses to become involved or some undergraduate student working on the new super-duper singularity collider in an adjacent universe.  ;)

              •  The non-existence of fairies is unprovable (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Justanothernyer, csm, Smoh

                We should all be 50/50 agnostic on Scientology, Republican economic theory, creationism, and by all means vaccine-autism links.

                What 1-2% of scientists believe that Climate Change is a myth. 50/50 agnostic I think is the only way to go.

                When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                by PhillyJeff on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:02:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  would like to point out (4+ / 0-)

                many religions proclaim their god to be the all-powerful creator of the universe.  in some sects of christianity, it is a personal god who knew you before you were born.  despite supposedly creating the world and everything in it, not one single trace of any god has ever been found.  there's not even a rational explanation for gods.  

                the existence of a god should be provable - there's no way an omnipotent being couldn't be detected.  and a god who cannot be detected in any way is literally no different than a god who does not exist.  that's why we have a god of the gaps scenario or people just outright rejecting science (see diary).

              •  I drive the die hard (0+ / 0-)

                Evangelist and atheist nuts.
                I'm a deist.
                For the average, middle of the road of religious or atheist, I get along swimmingly with.  :)

              •  Either way is unprovable (0+ / 0-)

                I agree with you to that extent - it's one thing to have an opinion about God, but quite another to try to translate that opinion into policies that are predicated on the actual existence of God having been proven. Yet no one can really prove God doesn't exist, either. But that is why it's a nonscientific issue. To me the bigger problem is not so much expunging religious thoughts from people altogether, but rather minimizing ALL the illogical ways - religious and nonreligious - that people use to avoid reality.  

                That is totally different from the many contributions religious people have made to logic, mathematics, and other fields of rationality over the centuries. Those were people who did not live in ignorance, at least not the wholesale kind you're denigrating. The problem with religion is that it overlaps with cultishness, which the anti-vaccine crowd seems to belong to. In both cases, it is the denial of practical reason that leads to problems.

                Also, I don't know how widespread it is, but apparently there is a non-cure side regarding autism, those who do not regard it as a disorder. So to me that is more evidence that people who refuse vaccines for their children are on balance doing more harm than good. It's not only affecting their children, it is affecting children all around them, so to me that makes it a social policy issue in need of remediation.

            •  True, but the important point is (4+ / 0-)

              that 99% of religious people have been persuaded to vaccinate their children.  So let's not write them off because they happen to believe in one superstition or another.

              "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

              by Spider Stumbled on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 06:16:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps this might help ... (0+ / 0-)

              with the argument you're propounding and with which I agree:

              200.    "There is a rumor going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." -Terry Pratchett, novelist (b. 1948) [AWAD 28 April 2014]

              As you can see, this is 'saying #200' from my ever-growing list of Sayings of Interest (17 pages and growing!!)

              And we see what a mess religious differences are making in the Middle East - and have made for the past millennium or five.  

              Sure glad our Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." -  First Amendment, doncha know - kinda placed in an important spot at the very top of the First of a list of 10, respectfully referred to as the Bill of Rights.  

              Sure wish the 'religious' right and the religion-spouting politicians would get it through their thick heads that their incessant 'god this and god that' is no different from the schism we see among the Sunni, Shiites and Kurds.  Arrrrrghhhh - there I go - this topic is my 'shiny object' for the day!

              Keep the faith - in a secular sense, of course!
              R. Galli
              Edison, NJ

              •  Please don't mistake ... (0+ / 0-)

                my comments to suggest I think religion or the religious are 'ignorant'.  Rather, over zealous attempts to indoctrinate others with a particular religion is, in my view, uncivil at best.  While I consider myself a non-theist, I do respect others' beliefs which give them comfort so long is those beliefs do not infringe on, for example, my understanding there is no god.

                It's irrefutable, in my view, that a great many, if not most religious people are not 'ignorant' - religion is a moral choice just as 'non-religion' is.  (Too tired to be articulate!)

                Be well
                R. Galli
                Edison, NJ

              •  Religion isn't Always the Culprit (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                In fact, it is more often the excuse to explain regional and national clashes eg the Irish Question during the 19th c had actually very little to do with religion and very much to do with the enforced enclosures by the British in what amounted to a deliberate attempted genocide. The same is true in the Middle East - most of the violence may seem to be, on the surface, religious but dig deeper and you will find economic motives mostly caused by destabilization within the region over long periods of time first by European interests going back centuries and now by the US and their allies. I'm an atheist but I believe that, until we stop blaming religion for problems which are actually economic  and actually do something about the real causes, the world will remain a very unsafe place for all of us. As to the anti-vaxxers, judging from posts I have read on this and other progressive sites, they seem just as likely to be liberals as religious.

                •  Amen! Justmax (0+ / 0-)

                  the pun is intended

                  no religious affect is intended

                  but I still have to ask, what does this have to do with measles?

                  you are quite right; dig deeper and you'll find economic inequalities underneath...

                  As for Iran/Iraq, their hatred of all 'white' people stems from the decimation of Persia (then Iran/Iraq) brought about when the 'white' (fair skinned compared to them) Alexander who we know as Alexander the Great marched from Greece to Persia establishing trade, common money and common language (Koine Greek) and in general introduced cultures to other cultures...

                  Alexander conquered all cultures he encountered but without any warfare, killing, etc as they simply accepted his goods (dyes, spices, foods, cloths, furniture, language, money, trade) from different cultures and enriched themselves remaining entirely intact as their own cultural entities.

                  However, upon reaching Persia, Darius, king of Persia decided that he would fight against any cultural trade / incursion and he lost; to the point of Persia being eradicated down into the sand dunes on which it is still built...

                  In all Muslim prayers the name Alexander will occur multiple times in every sentence with hatred and extreme jihad because Darius, instead of accepting the riches of the rest of the world decided to fight against Alexander... instead of remaining intact as a cultural entity and accepting gifts of items never seen in Persia Darius destroyed Persia and Alexander has been blamed ever since...

                  Alexander, seen as 'white' is only the first in a long line of European / American objects of hatred and jihad...

                  A misguided people who followed their misguided leader still think they will defeat Alexander and Persia will rise to power once again as a seat of learning, writings, philosophy, science and technology...

                  Instead of working with the 'west' Iran/Iraq still wants to conquer the west... something that probably is not going to happen very soon, if ever... but it certainly is costing us our country and maybe will conquer democracy as the war in the middle east rages and destroys America...

                  interesting contradictions...

                  so Justmax, there were economic reasons underneath the conflict but it was the refusal of Darius to participate in a 'better' trade / economy, not the offer of the 'west' that started this crapola...

                  now, back to measles...

          •  I'd call it a particularly (5+ / 0-)

            uncritical one.  And one based upon an emotional rather than a reasoned response.

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:37:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  No (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            debris54, wildweasels

            A nasty generalization is to say all Christians are Gay bashing bigots. There is a difference between criticism and attack, but I don't think you recognize it.

            I need your support, my paypal is:

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:19:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  In general, yes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            either ignorance of the humanity of those who do not subscribe to their brand of religion, or ignorance of the consequences of not thinking through the tenets of same.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 09:53:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's quite true. Where is a neighbourhood... (0+ / 0-)

            dispenser of a "first class ticket to heaven"...?

            On the contrary, where is a neighbourhood dispenser of good health care?


            Ugh. --UB.

            The Republican Party is run by the KOCH BROTHERS.

            by unclebucky on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 10:05:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Religious ignorance (0+ / 0-)

            Well, they aren't smart enough to be choosing it exactly. They believe what they do because they were brainwashed into believing in the imaginary play friend in the sky when they were young children. Studies have shown that such brainwashing at such an early stage can also leave the child unable to fully develop a healthy and critical approach to thinking analytically. Why think when you can always fall back on an imaginary being that has already been set up in such a way that if it doesn't follow through it can always be dismissed as being the fault of the individual because of a sin or not enough faith.

            Religion does indeed rely on a lot of willful ignorance to even exist. And until that imaginary being can show up and speak for itself it is both the figment of deluded people's imagination and it serves no rational purpose.

        •  There is plenty of theological writing (16+ / 0-)

          that offers excellent examples of critical thinking.  

          Religion itself is not the antithesis of critical thinking (or doesn't have to be, given that we have a rather wide history of religion that points in the opposite direction).  The antithesis of critical thinking is mindless generalization, and broad acceptance of dogma, which some religious factions are guilty of (I'd even accept "many" as a modifer here).  But of course, so are many other factions which aren't religious at all.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:36:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  forgive me for being blunt, Horace, but (14+ / 0-)

          anyone who swallowed the story that their stomach troubles came from nonexistent "GMO apples", should probably not be all that quick to judge others about "critical thinking".

          Just sayin.

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:40:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I am an atheist (7+ / 0-)

          and I am sure that most religious parents get their children vaccinated.

        •  Where did religion come into this?? (4+ / 0-)

          Stephen Colbert does superb satire. Pity those offended by it.

          by VirginiaJeff on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 09:46:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Religious people request fewer exemptions (11+ / 0-)

          than you appear to believe. In fact, inoculation rates are higher in most of the Bible belt than in some liberal states like California, Oregon, and Washington.

          And please, try to remember that much of the DK community is religious. Don't include us in broad brush attacks.

          Stephen Colbert does superb satire. Pity those offended by it.

          by VirginiaJeff on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 09:57:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Speaking as an atheist: (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jules0845, WB Reeves, VirginiaJeff

          If your beliefs, or lack thereof, are a pretext for you to make yourself out to be better than someone else, you're doing it wrong.

          We all believe in unprovable things. Some are of a more spiritual nature than others. Many fall under the blanket of "opinions", others "predictions" and still others "principles."

          Stop sneering about what people believe and start concerning yourself with what they do.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:19:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  HR (0+ / 0-)

          I'm new here; how do I hide-rec this?

        •  Not Following (0+ / 0-)

          I don't get how you got from your premise to your conclusion. Care to explain it to me?

        •  Parents of Patient Zero Should be Sued (0+ / 0-)

          The parents of the child should have to pay for all treatment related to any and all cases resulting from the patient coming back from Kenya.  If you play you pay.  In fact, a few years in prison wouldn't be too bad for these ignorance pieces of shit.

      •  "Culturally-specific beliefs" (9+ / 0-)

        You mean, like "Vaccines cause autism, and all the doctors in the world are in on the conspiracy"?

        "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

        by Hayate Yagami on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:04:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No... (17+ / 0-)

          I mean like, bad health is caused by an imbalance of humors, or bad health can be the product of angry ancestors, or Western medicine does not address community needs, or mental illness is not an illness but a product of supernatural forces that cause a child to be "unbalanced", and if you put all of these together, it can add up to distrust of Western Medicine, particularly in an area (like behavioral health, or  cognitive impairments) where alternative explanations outside of Western, biological medicine are at work.  If you combine that with someone prominent in said community (i.e. a community leader) who might have been exposed to some of the 'vaccines cause autism' material, this position is neither so far-fetched to understand, nor is it an example of willful ignorance or facts.

          There is some interesting material that has been written on the treatment and understanding of mental illness and cognitive impairments in East Africa. From reviewing this work, I have learned that culturally-specific beliefs can impact health, healthcare delivery and healthcare decision making in the US.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:45:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'd call that inculcation and/or tradition (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Which also, conveniently, can cause one to ignore objective inquiry beyond what is narrowly accepted as "truth" in their subculture.

        "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

        by wader on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:43:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Since we're jumping to conclusions here, (4+ / 0-)

          why not guess that the whole idea of vaccinations is new and foreign to them?
          Why not guess that it doesn't do much good for American know-it-alls to blather on about stuff they never heard of?

          What seems to be needed (since I'm also talking out my nethers) would be for leaders in their community to get on the band wagon.

          "...we live in the best most expensive third world country." "If only the NEA could figure out all they have to do is define the ignorance of the next generation as a WMD..." ---Stolen from posts on Daily Kos

          by jestbill on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:15:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you are assuming that the ones not vaccinating are (7+ / 0-)

            "their community". You are quite mistaken. As we can tell by our own anti-vax loonie brigade here (just wait a while and they'll show up), "they" are actually "us"----white middle-class Americans with presumably an education.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:20:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  They Didn't Have This Problem Before (14+ / 0-)

            From the diary:

            For example, in 2004, over 90% of Somali children in Minnesota were on schedule with the MMR vaccines. By 2010, that rate had dropped to 54%.
            This change suggests that the cause is infiltration of anti-vaxxer idiocy from the surrounding American culture, not something internal to their culture.

            On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

            by stevemb on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:42:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Couple of possible explanations... (8+ / 0-)

              Growth of immigration from Somali in the six year period, so that more of the people are closer to being "off the boat" than in previous years, and possibly  a lack of funding to provide for culturally-responsive healthcare for Somali populations so that those with young children in 2010 were not advised in a culturally responsive way. I know for a fact that huge cuts to these kind of culturally-specific awareness programs for health care professionals who treat immigrant populations have declined in the past five years. (If you haven't guessed, I work in this area, and the last ten years have shown a marked decline in the kind of programs that could have been used to alleviate this kind of cultural barrier to safe healthcare delivery).

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:57:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think it's very condescending to Somali (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                immigrants to imply that they're somehow too stupid or backwards to understand things like vaccination on their own.

                If they weren't getting these ideas from the anti-vax movement there wouldn't be a reason to be wary about vaccines.

                I give them enough credit to be able to understand why vaccination is a good thing. I'm sure new Somali immigrants are more familiar with childhood disease than natural-born Americans.

                When you have people in the media saying "don't vaccinate, your child could get sick" it's hard to know who to trust if you're new in the country.

                When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                by PhillyJeff on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:05:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  On the contrary it is not implying that they are (11+ / 0-)

                  either "stupid" or "backward", it is a straight up statement that many people around the world operate with a fundamentally understanding of health, medicine, sickness and healthcare than the one that is dominant in the US.

                  This is not an implication but is an observation of actual lived experience.  And these different cultural understandings about medical culture can have any number of real-world implications such as a greater vulnerability to anti-science or the Western medical model approaches.

                  If there is any implication of "stupidity" in the interpretation of these observations you are bringing those yourself. My argument is that it is in fact something very different from "stupidity", but that a blindness to alternative cultural viewpoints may be what captures this phenomenon and calls it "stupidity", which is a gross misnomer.

                  Many of these alternative cultural viewpoints to medicine do in fact have great successes in areas of healthcare where western medicine is weak. The area of vaccinations to fight contagious diseases, however, isn't one of them.  so the issue isn't that people are stupid or backward, the issue is that these concepts may well be foreign to them and thus they need to be reached and appropriately integrated into the bio-medical model that we operate with.

                  So, it may not be willful ignorance at all as so many commenters were implying upthread, but something else altogether.  That was the reason I began this discussion to show that there are plenty of other reasons besides those rather arrogantly dismissive posts seemed to want to champion.

                  Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                  by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:01:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yeah, that makes some sense (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VirginiaJeff, Amber6541

                    I, for one, would like to know a lot more about the particular facts.

                    "Democracy is a political system for people who are not sure they are right." —E. E. Schattschneider

                    by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:04:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Where exactly is Western Medicine "weak?" (0+ / 0-)
                    Many of these alternative cultural viewpoints to medicine do in fact have great successes in areas of healthcare where western medicine is weak.
                    Where exactly does this ever happen?

                    Your comments were more or less explicitly "those Somalis aren't like we educated Americans and thus aren't sophisticated enough to understand vaccination."

                    It's extremely irritating to me to see how much "progressives" condescend to minorities and people from the developing world.

                    Somali immigrants are extremely brave and enterprising to move half a world away to find a new life. They're smart enough to realize that medicine works.

                    But you have educated "progressives" in the media telling people that vaccines can cause autism and worse. For people who can't exactly research it thoroughly you can see how they might think there's a debate on the issue and it's better to just not vaccinate just in case.

                    When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                    by PhillyJeff on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 10:13:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  No, I'm assuming that a subgroup of a subgroup (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            could have been sharing the same, unknowing ignorance about vaccine safety, lack of proven linkage to autism, etc.

            Nothing more - i.e., it's just subcultures at work, whether they were originally Somali, French, etc.

            I agree that their knowledge needs an injection from sources they trust, so "leaders in their community" would seem a good starting point.

            "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

            by wader on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:21:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  the diary states the rates declined over time (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            that is a big issue right there, it went from 90+% to 50+% over time.  

        •  You might call it that... (7+ / 0-)

          but doing so would reflect a particularly condescending form of culturally-specific arrogance. Or at least, it could be interpreted that way by some people.

          And if you did so, you'd be far less likely to ever convince people who do hold those more traditional beliefs from their nature cultures to ever except and begin to understand Western medical culture and its practices (like clinical testing, the scientific method and statistical analysis, something that also looks an awful lot like magic and blind faith to folks not fluent in its principles).

          But perhaps your goal isn't to expand the use of vaccines among the unvaccinated populations.  Perhaps your goal is just to be right and feel comfortable in your certainty and rightness.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:50:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you this assumptive all of the time (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Or, just some of the time?

            Considering that I've influenced relatives and their friends to drop anti-vaccinated views through even-handed exposure to the known facts surrounding this issue, I'd say my inclination happens to be one of helping people better understand that there's better and more information available on this subject.

            But, let's look at your assumptions above, please.

            Supposedly, I was being "condescending" in your view.  Specifically, of "nature cultures".  And, how might this be the case, considering that this was described in the source article as:

            . . . In the Minnesota outbreak, the child infected in Kenya was of Somali descent, as were most of the children whose parents had declined the MMR vaccine because of safety fears.

            And that's consistent, Gahr said, with a striking decline in MMR acceptance among Minnesota's relatively large Somali population. In 2004, the number of Somali children in the state who were on schedule with their MMR topped 90 percent.

            "By 2010, that was down to just 54 percent," Gahr said.

            From what the health department learned in parent interviews, the decline seemed to stem from misinformation about an MMR-autism link.

            My relatives + their friends who I attempted to help originated far from nature-based cultures, but they were banding together from hearsay and rampant fears abot vaccines without wanting to hear other opinions.  Because other opinions, within their circles, could only equal lies of pharma/chemical companies and corrupt, government shills who wanted to guarantee a never-ending stream of revenue from enforced vaccination schedules.  It didn't matter from where they were before banding together from various perceptions of shared values (and fears) that brought them into reinforcing and eventually relying on each other over time - nature-based or not - they were unfortunately stuck in the thrall of a groupthink without consciously realizing such.

            So, to you, gentle commenter:

            Have you ever been inculcated within a subculture and only later extricated yourself, to later realize how soundproof the walls of even the more liberal groups could be?  How about being within a highly white, right-wing community?  Great, because then you'll already guess what I'm about to write.

            I have been there and back.  A liberal-hearted kid who grew into teens and young adulthood in a seemingly innocuous, upper-class village that looked idyllic on the outside.  My friends and neighbors didn't become zombies or programmed agents of conservative, male-dominated whiteness immediately without individual characteristics, but we did become sucked into that pocket universe, nonetheless.  It's where we all lived during our years into adulthood - i.e., a time when we're looking to define our personalities within the world that we see.  And, it was a small world.

            My peers and I did not become instantly immune to facts which didn't fit the narratives that spread in our community, it happened gradually over time.  But, over the years, acceptance of groupthink ideas would inject faster into our bloodstreams.  Without consciously realizing it, blinders were being donned for all sorts of subjects - traditional and contemporary - depending upon how the groupthink was working for that week.  Or month.  Or over many years (i.e., "heritage" notions).

            To display thinking otherwise would lead to instant mocking, maybe even revulsion by your peers.  Being ostracized could happen far more brutally than one might imagine, simply for demonstrating a mind of your own on some areas of seemingly simple consideration.

            So, as implicitly upstanding members of the community, we habitually did NOT think outside the groupthink.  This was part of our inculcation.  It was a usual aspect of living in a community that you felt was your own and was generally correct.

            Not all subcultures threaten independence in the same manner as white, right-wing groupings, but many engender similar aspects of "getting along" that tends to have its congenial members relegating their critical thinking to habitually accepting groupthink as sacrament far too easily.  Even within subcultures of subcultures.

            . . .

            And, that was the point I was making.  From my own observations and personal experiences.  Had nothing specific to do with these people, but generalizing a point that even supported some of what you offered, I felt.

            Thanks for the habitual attack, though.

            "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

            by wader on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:18:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Quacks and Consequences (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aimeehs, CuriousBoston

        Except that "MMR vaccine coverage among Somali children declined significantly from 2004 through 2010 starting at 91.1% in 2004 and reaching 54.0% in 2010."

        Like other parents, this is about folks getting taken in by the propaganda of the anti-vax movement because they are worried about autism.

        I don't think that it is necessarily culturally specific. There are clusters in other parts of the country and among other cultures that have also seen their vaccination rates dropped significantly during this time, even as vaccination rates stay high overall in the country.

      •  Before we get too smug... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CuriousBoston, debris54

        While the community involved in this outbreak is a close-knit group of Somali immigrants, we would do well to remember that "foreigners" do not have the market cornered on poor decision-making when it comes to vaccinations.  Celebrity Jenny McCarthy has been advocating her "anti-vox" stance since at least 2009.  And, while all of the claims she has made about vaccines have been either completely false or misleading, she is not only still free to make them, but enjoys a trusted celebrity status and carefully crafted maternal image that makes her "message" so much more dangerous.

      •  they have and are looking at this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I've read that the community basically has fallen for the "vaccines are a scheme of Big Pharma and cause autism" lie.
        Many Somali immigrant women are not literate/educated as it is-at least in my area-, so if they hear a rumor from a friend it is hard for them to check out if it is false.

      •  But this community (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        had a vax rate of 90% and it dropped to 54% in 5 years.  That's remarkable.  I know this community has a higher-than-average autism rate as well.  Seems like they bought the Wakefield bullpucky hook, line and sinker; possibly also some of the anti-establishment vaccine CT theories, too.

        Banana Republic: it's not just a clothing store.

        by northbronx on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 03:29:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, but you sound like a moron (0+ / 0-)
      •  I was tracking reports on this outbreak (0+ / 0-)

        The origin of the resistance to immunization was due to religious leaders misleading their followers.

        Perhaps it is time to dust off mandatory quarantine laws.

    •  alas, vaccines, like some other issues (15+ / 0-)

      (including GMOs, radiation and "cellphones cause brain cancer") have now become, for some lefty tribal groups, an emotional marker of identity. It is now all about the silly "corporate conspiracy" tinfoil-hattery. Such arguments are impervious to facts or logic.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:24:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Law suit (0+ / 0-)

      If my child were to get measles, after being vaccinated and the source of origin was an unvaccinated carrier it seems I would have legal standing to go after the responsible party.  I want to turn the clock back to making vaccinations mandatory as they were in 1954 when I reported to school for the first time.

      I believe in separation of corporation and State.. It becomes class warfare only when the serfs fight back.

      by tipring on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 10:08:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Enlightenment needed (0+ / 0-)

      As I remember from being a child and young adult in pre-vaccination days, there were 2 diseases that were referred to as "measles" -- we called them "German measles" and "red measles".  In addition, there was a measle-like disease called "rubeola" that also infected children.  So which "measles" are children vaccinated against these days?

      Also -- if an adult was not vaccinated as a child because the vaccine did not exist, and did not ever have measles, should that adult get vaccinated now?

      1.  German measles -- can also affect the eyes and vision.  Must be very careful to keep patients in a darkened room and, when well, to expose them very gradually to light, beginning with dim light.   Also VERY dangerous for women to get when they are pregnant because the foetus can be born blind or otherwise disabled.  I remember catching German measles from a student prior to my getting married and was relieved that I caught it so that when I got pregnant I wouldn't have to worry about getting it.

      2.  Red measles -- I remember being sickest when I had this.  High fever.  No appetite.

      3.  Rubeola -- my son had this.  High fever.  Characterized by the swelling of two small nodes on either side of the spine on the back of the neck just under the hairline.  

      •  Most of those names are (0+ / 0-)

        Just common terms used by the public for rubella, measles, and other pox diseases.

        MMR-Measles, Mumps, And Rubella is a standard childhood vaccine now. Came out a few years after I had already contracted the mumps.

        I need your support, my paypal is:

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:07:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  These are not people swayed by facts (0+ / 0-)

      If the vaccines are so safe and effective why do the vaccine companies need immunity from liability?

      •  Simple (0+ / 0-)

        Because defending unfounded accusations gets rather expensive.  I hope the world keeps turning....ME defending Big Pharma.  As a general rule they do not get my love, but at least they are not denying proven science.

        I believe in separation of corporation and State.. It becomes class warfare only when the serfs fight back.

        by tipring on Sat Jun 21, 2014 at 05:40:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sheesh, this trope again? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The vaccine manufacturers don't have immunity from liability.

        The vaccine court was established to streamline claims for vaccine injury.  It is your first stop for a claim of injury.  

        If you're injured from a labeling or manufacturing defect, then you can sue the manufacturer directly without the vaccine court.

  •  Incredible! Keep on educating (26+ / 0-)

    On this issue. Antivacs people need it and graphics of this needless suffering. My thanks for this complied info. I will pass it on in my internet wandering.

    This cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our arms collectively, but if sweetness can win, and it can, then I'll still be here tomorrow to high-five you yesterday, my friend. Peace. ~The Gingerbread Man - Adventure Time

    by live2learn on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 12:48:05 PM PDT

    •  Anti-vaxxers need to hear that a recent study (12+ / 0-)

      published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that autism begins in the womb, negating the primary reason to avoid vaccination, which is the bogus link between vaccines and autism.

      preborner: (n.) one who believes that the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.

      Repeal Benghazi!


      by 1BQ on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 01:50:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too strong a characterization. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        klamothe, Isara, joynow, CuriousBoston

        The authors actually concluded "Our data are consistent with an early prenatal origin of autism or at least prenatal processes that may confer a predisposition to autism."  They didn't establish causation or a time autism developed.  There are indications that autism is associated with immune dysregulation; if someone had such a predisposition to autism, it's possible vaccinations could exacerbate that predisposition and bring it on.  The connection between the immune system and neural development is still a murky area.

        Having said that, there is at least one study that correlates development of autism with certain infections of the mother at certain times during pregnancy, so it's possible that autism does start in utero.  Rather than point to vaccinations, one could as well point to our generally more inflammatory environment which contains pollutants (and damage caused by them) we evolutionarily were not designed to handle.

        "Democrat" is a noun. "Democratic" is an adjective. "Republican" is an idiot. Illigitimi non carborundum. Regardless of Party. The license plate I want? OMG GOP WTF

        by TheOrchid on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:50:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  alas, many of them have moved on to plan B (11+ / 0-)

        They no longer argue that vaccines cause autism--instead they wave their arms about how "dangerous" and "untested" and "ineffective" the vaccines are.

        And some of them, realizing at last how nutty most people think they are, now preface themselves by declaring "I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but . . . " and then go on to parrot all the standard anti-vax dumbfuckery.

        I'm willing to cut most anti-science loonies some slack, since their tinfoil-hat ravings don't usually do any more harm than separating the stupid from their money.  But I have no mercy at all for anti-vaxxers. People DIE because of them.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:46:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's outright hostility to Science... (10+ / 0-)

          And it's not limited to right-wing fundamentalist religious folks we usually associate with hostility to science...

          Some of the areas with the lowest vaccination rates are places like Marin County, which are full of white, wealthy, liberals full of psuedo-holistic horseshit. It's not a lack of education or access to services there. Just willful ignorance.

          I'm with you. The anti-vaxxers have caused an immense amount of damage, and should be subjected to communal shunning until they stop risking peoples' lives.

      •  Great, then they'll say that it was the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        parents vaccinations that caused the autism

        Now with their party out of power, the GOP is flailing more then Mitch McConnell's jowls on a playground swing. S. Colbert

        by christomento on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 04:19:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Those vaccines did not exist when I was a kid. (37+ / 0-)

    As a result, I got all of those diseases (with the possible exception of rubella: don't remember -- isn't that another form of measles?)

    Anyway, yeah, chicken pox, mumps, two different measles, missed a lot of school b/c we didn't have any vaccines back then. Only the one for polio: the scar on my arm has finally disappeared.

    Don't remember which childhood disease I had when I was confined to bed & asked what I wanted, I begged for books. Mom brought me Little House in the Big Wood.

    English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgment and education - sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street. E. B. White

    by Youffraita on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 12:53:11 PM PDT

  •  Vaccination (41+ / 0-)

    Is the biggest public health achievement in the History of Humankind. I wonder if that is why these high-drama people like Jenny McCarthy were attracted to it. For anti-vaccination celebrities, it is a way to create a churn of drama and attention around themselves. The side effect, of course, is dead kids.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 01:13:57 PM PDT

  •  I'm old enough (27+ / 0-)

    to remember contracting many childhood diseases. But I was lucky and didn't contract polio like my cousin did. She died before she turned 7. Have another cousin with one leg shorter than the other. There was never any question in my family about whether or not we were going to take that vaccine laced sugar cube. Or any other vaccines, for that matter.

  •  i got the measles (I was vaccinated soon after) (13+ / 0-)

    I still remember the fever dreams - the feeling of galloping over hills, sometimes high frequency, sometimes low frequency and expanding to fill the whole room and once I saw God.

    ...Son, those Elephants always look out for themselves. If you happen to get a crumb or two from their policies, it's a complete coincidence. -Malharden's Dad

    by slowbutsure on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 01:34:14 PM PDT

  •  I had better not hear a peep from the anti-GMO (12+ / 2-)

    crowd on this.

    You people are no better than these science deniers or the climate change deniers.

    •  False equivalency B.S. (24+ / 0-)
      You people are no better than these science deniers or the climate change deniers.
       My father was a plant geneticist, so I'm not ignorant about the issue.  And it's why  I'm not anti- all GMOs.  However, I am against those GMOs, such as Round-Up resistant, that have a high potential to harm beneficial insects and other non-human species, regardless of whether they're "safe" for human consumption.  

      My Karma just ran over your Dogma

      by FoundingFatherDAR on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:23:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that's GMO (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cville townie

        GMO is Round-up Ready and BT. There's nothing else there.

        This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

        by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:53:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  sounds like your gripe is actually with Roundup (7+ / 0-)

        and its effects, not with GMO. Neither of the two commercially available GMO products in the US--Bt or GMO, have any effect on beneficial insects or non-human species. (And indeed, Roundup itself works by disabling a particular plant enzyme to prevent cell replication--the toxic effects of Roundup come from the other chemicals that are added as surfactants and dispersants.)

        Blaming GMO plants for the effects of Roundup because we spray Roundup on them, is like blaming grass for the effects of fertilizer runoff because we spray fertilizer on it.

        It's silly.

        But indeed the basic argument of the anti-GMO and the anti-vaxxers is the same--"it's all a corporate conspiracy".

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:30:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, Lenny, you're wrong (5+ / 0-)

          and I'm disappointed in you. BT being spread around in the environment as a genetic component of plants, most certainly could have an "effect on beneficial insects or non-human species". You know, like pollinators.

          We really don't know the long-term effects of consuming Round-up and its unknown "surfactants" in every single meal our entire life. Ditto for consuming BT every single meal our entire life.

          But one thing we do know, is that BT will fuck up beneficial insects.

          This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

          by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:00:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I might add: (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nathanfl, JVolvo, Gwennedd

            BT is a pesticide. By the laws of California, for example, where I was a Licensed Pest Control Operator, I had to file a report every single time I applied a pesticide (even BT), giving the date, time, location, product, target pests, amount, etc. Is this happening with GMOs?

            Do you really want to eat this in every meal every single day of your life?

            This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

            by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:16:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it is ALREADY in every single meal of (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              susans, Isara, kkkkate, CuriousBoston

              your life. Bt is a natural chemical found in soil bacteria. You eat it every single day.

              Bt has no effect on humans.  It has no effect on any organism that does not have the insect protein it attacks.

              You are letting your anti-corporate ideology run away with your brain. It doesn't help us.

              Here is why I oppose GMOs:

              1. they give Monsanto a vertical monopoly over an entire sector of the economy which they rule like a feudal overlord.

              2. Monsanto imposes total control over the way its product is used by those who buy it.

              3.Monsanto seeks total control over any information about its product and how it is used.

              4. Monsanto should have NO right to patent natural products for private profit

              There are plenty of good reasons to oppose Monsanto and its use of GMOs.  "It will kill us !!!!" is not one of them. That argument is simply scientific nonsense.

              My anti-GMO arguments are valid even if every product Monsanto ever makes are as harmless as the powder on a newborn baby's ass.

              In the end, reality always wins.

              by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 07:00:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  actually, I'm not (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            and I'm surprised you are swallowing this anti-science crap.

            1. Bt has already been in the environment for billions of years--it's made by soil bacteria.

            2. No plant has been demonstrated to have gotten the ability to make Bt because of cross-pollination with GMO crops.  None.

            3. Bt works by destroying an insect protein. It does nothing at all to any organism that does not have that protein. And it only effects insects which eat the plant.

            4. Bt has been around for billions of years, and has been sprayed on non-GMO crops since the 20's. It has had no measured effect. Roundup has been sprayed on non-GMO crops since the 90's--it too has had no demonstrated effect.

            I hate Monsanto too. But I also hate silly anti-science assertions that just make our side look silly and dumb.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:55:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not going to fight this forever (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, Gwennedd
              And it only effects insects which eat the plant.
              What do you think that means, bad spelling and all? Pollinators. All the pollinators that go to GMO (BT) plants will die.

              This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

              by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 07:00:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you are simply wrong (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Pollinators don't eat the plant.

                And they don't eat enough of the pollen to get a fatal dose.

                Here's one of the studies:


                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 07:08:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  also Bt is specific (0+ / 0-)

                  different strains attack different insects.  the Bt is only toxic to Lepidoptera so no problem for bees.

                  I used to be disgusted. Now I try to be amused. - Elvis Costello

                  by gnbhull on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 07:48:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  if you want to accept glyphosate as a foodstuff (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  protectspice, JVolvo

                  Great. Eat it everyday, in all your staple foods. Same with BT. And whatever Monsanto wants in the future. I'm glad to live in a country where that kind of ridiculous is not the norm.

                  And, for the "anti-science"? A huge Fuck You.  Being against Monsanto will never be "anti-science".

                  This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

                  by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:25:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  we were talking about Bt (0+ / 0-)

                    Not glyphosates. Do you understand the difference?

                    Glyphosate works by attacking a plant enzyme and preventing the plant's cells from dividing. It has no effect whatsoever on anything that does not have that plant enzyme.

                    The only demonstrated toxic effects from Roundup come from the chemicals that are added to it as a surfactent and dispersent.  They are mildly toxic to some aquatic organisms, and Roundup containers have a warning not to use them near a source of water. No component of Roundup has been shown to have any harmful effect on humans under normal usage.

                    The real problem with Roundup is that it kills plants indiscriminately, including beneficial plants like milkweeds (which is the actual cause of the decline in butterfly populations--the butterflies are not being killed by the pesticides, instead the butterfly's food plants are being killed by the herbicides).

                    PS-- I am anti-Monsanto and anti-GMO. You'd know that if you had actually read my comment, instead of just foaming at the mouth.

                    But your argument is simply wrong.  Not true.  Unfactual.  Incorrect. Contrary to reality.

                    Fighting Monsanto and its use of GMOs with arguments that are trivially wrong, doesn't help us. It just makes us look like buffoons.  So don't do it.

                    And yes, anyone who thinks science is a Monsanto conspiracy (or who thinks that people who criticize incorrect scientific arguments are "pro-Monsanto") are, by definition, anti-science.

                    If you want to take a deep breath, calm down, and talk about the actual science, I'd be more than happy.  But if this is just an emotional tribal "I'm anti-Monsanto and anyone who disagrees with me must be a pro-Monsanto corproate tool !!!!" thingie, then  . . . well . . . enjoy yourself. You're wrong. (shrug)

                    In the end, reality always wins.

                    by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:40:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  ps--glyphosate is sprayed on more non-GMO crops (0+ / 0-)

                    than GMO.  Has been for two decades now. Still is.

                    Banning GMOs tomorrow won't do jack-diddley-doo to end the use of glyphosate.

                    (Same for Bt, which has been sprayed on non-GMO crops since the 1920's.)

                    In the end, reality always wins.

                    by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:42:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Bt toxin (0+ / 0-)

              yes Bt toxin has been around in the environment for millions of years- in very minute quantities.  When it's spliced into the corn DNA, it is producing 1000's of times the amount that is found naturally in the environment.  And contrary to Big Agra's reassurance, that abnormal viral-bacterial-spliced-into-corn DNA is not being broken down in our intestines.  Instead studies have shown that this Franken-DNA is inserting itself into our own normal flora in the gut-- woo-hoo, now we are producing our own pesticides!!  BTW pesticides work in two ways, by being hormone disruptors and by disrupting the neurologic system of insects- however they don't stop at insects.  No wonder we are seeing logarythmic increases in infertility, neurologic diseases, learning disorders, autoimmune diseases and hormonally related cancers.  If you want to believe Big Agra industry funded "science", eat away!  I am educating all my patients on the real science of healthy soils, healthy bodies.  Check out Genetic Roulette Documentary, and then for the antidote read Farmacology by Daphne Miller MD.
              Dr Margaret

              •  this is all nonsense (0+ / 0-)
                Instead studies have shown that this Franken-DNA is inserting itself into our own normal flora in the gut-- woo-hoo, now we are producing our own pesticides!!
                Can you cite these studies, please?
                BTW pesticides work in two ways, by being hormone disruptors and by disrupting the neurologic system of insects- however they don't stop at insects.  No wonder we are seeing logarythmic increases in infertility, neurologic diseases, learning disorders, autoimmune diseases and hormonally related cancers.
                None of this has stuff-all to do with GMOs though, since GMOs do not produce organophosphates.
                If you want to believe Big Agra industry
                I was fighting Big Agra with Greenpeace years before most of the people here even started pooping their diapers.  So spare me all the idiotic "you support the corporate conspiracy!" horse shit.
                I am educating all my patients on the real science of healthy soils, healthy bodies.  Check out Genetic Roulette Documentary, and then for the antidote read Farmacology by Daphne Miller MD.
                Alas, it sounds like you are mostly teaching anti-science New Age horse shit.

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Mon Jun 23, 2014 at 04:39:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ps--there is zero evidence that either (0+ / 0-)

                  GMOs or pesticides have anything whatever to do with any of this:

                  No wonder we are seeing logarythmic increases in infertility, neurologic diseases, learning disorders, autoimmune diseases and hormonally related cancers.
                  Indeed, there is zero evidence that the rate of any of these is actually increasing, beyond that expected from an increased lifespan and a better technological ability to detect and diagnose them.

                  You are simply waving your arms.

                  In the end, reality always wins.

                  by Lenny Flank on Mon Jun 23, 2014 at 04:41:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Yipes a little to much Fox News here (0+ / 0-)

          Why so pro GMO? Besides the fact that internally pesticide laden Bt corn, and Round-Up drenched GMO soy and beets are horrible endocrine disrupters- it's the actual abnormal DNA that is spliced into these plants (viral DNA spliced to bacterial DNA spliced to plant DNA) that is having a devastating effect on triggering our autoimmune systems.  So no wonder we are seeing skyrocketing rates of autoimmune, neurologic and endocrine diseases such as diabetes and hormonal cancers. On top of killing all our soil's beneficial microbiome, and chelating nutrients out of the soil (and our bodies) GMO's and Big Phood, Big Agra are making Americans Fat, Sick, Depressed and Infertile--please eat away!  We need only people who can really think to continue to reproduce. check out   DrMargaret MD

    •  "You people" (3+ / 0-)

      HR for lying, bullshit, totally false equivalency. Wanting GMO (actually Round-Up soaked) products labeled as such, is in no way the same as anti-vaccine or climate denial. Get a grip on your bullshit, will you?

      This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

      by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:58:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated not for agreeing with tone or fully with (0+ / 0-)

      content, but because I feel the HRs are bogus on this one.

  •  I was one of five children who grew up in the (35+ / 0-)

    pre-MMRV era and suffered chicken pox, mumps and measles. Why anyone would want to put their child through that misery is beyond me. I can only assume that they never experienced any of those diseases.

    My kid brother developed pneumonia as a result of measles. I remember sitting at his bedside which was draped in sheets so the vaporizer could give him some relief and help him breathe. He was so young and everyone was so worried. Why would people want to go back to that era? Trust me, the fifties were highly over-rated.

  •  I probably shouldn't be here. (34+ / 0-)

    My grandfather contracted polio as a teenager and the doctors basically told his parents that he wasn't going to live through it.  But he did, possibly because his doc did a radical (at the time) blood transfusion on him with an older patient who had survived polio in the hopes that his blood would somehow help him fight the disease.

    Anyway, the point is, we don't need to go back to the bad old days of crap like this maining and killing kids on a daily basis.  Vaccines are amazingly good stuff, and the fact that people have created a wacky crusade against them is almost beyond belief.  

    •  Of course you should be here. That doctor, and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shotput8, Gwennedd

      your great grandfather not only saved your grandfather, they provided research data that was valuable to other doctors.

      Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

      by CuriousBoston on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 09:14:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I had mumps and chicken pox (23+ / 0-)

    as a kid, all of my sisters and I contracted it at the same time, which must have been delightful for my mother. Never got the measles, however (there was no MMRV vaccine at the time, just separate ones for Measles and Rubella. Was vaccinated against rubella, which is very dangerous to pregnant women, so kids of young mothers (i.e. mine) were vaccinated against that at the time.  And I think I got a measles vaccination, but can't be sure.  Know that my parents, especially my father, were keen on that, for reasons described below.

    My father, however, did have the measles as a kid (in the 1940's).  It affected his eyesight from the time he was 7, so much so that when he was ready to apply to college and wanted to try for an appointment to Annapolis, his eyesight wasn't good enough.  He met every other requirement, including the congressional appointment, but his childhood case of measles kept him out of the Naval Academy.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 01:51:02 PM PDT

  •  I've taken them all again for foreign travel, (13+ / 0-)

    and will probably get the shingles vaccine in a couple years.

    Retrospectives on 25th anniversary of Tiananmen at

    by Inland on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:04:04 PM PDT

    •  Well when you do be careful with OTC pain (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      relievers such as Tylenol, Asprin, and Advil as there is some concern that they could reduce the effectiveness of vaccinations. Sadly there haven't been any real human studies done that I know of (just one involving giving infants tylenol before the  vaccination) yet.

      (if you don't believe me, then look up how the COX-1 pathways are involved with Interleukin 17)

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 03:12:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I had the MMR vaccine and had chicken pox (10+ / 0-)

    I remember the itching that never stopped...

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

    by Hayate Yagami on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:10:04 PM PDT

  •  Collier's Magazine 1952 (19+ / 0-)

    Headline article about a family where 11 of 14 children were struck down with polio in the same summer.

    These stories used to be commonplace, vaccines moved them into the "Wow!  Really?" category, and the anti-vaxx people are trying to make them commonplace again.

  •  some vaccines need to be mandatory (15+ / 0-)

    If you want to travel to a high-risk area and return to the US, show vaccination. Or else don't come back.

    I've been stuck a thousand times. As a Peace Corps volunteer, we had every vaccine that you could imagine. I don't regret it.

    This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

    by Karl Rover on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 02:50:09 PM PDT

  •  two questions: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Susan from 29, VirginiaJeff

    1. How many vaccinated children have been patient zero of measles outbreaks?

    2. How does a breakout happen amongst vaccinated kids?  

    "Republicans: the party that brought us 'Just Say No.' First as a drug policy, then as their entire platform." ---Stephen Colbert

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:05:56 PM PDT

    •  Not all the answers... (9+ / 0-)

      1. Don't know.
      2. Vaccine uptake is not 100%. Something over 90% for measles, but nothing is 100% (I had to have two extra boosters, beyond the normal 3-shot series, before my blood tests, required as a healthcare professional, showed immunity to Hepatitis B.) We didn't used to require it, but kids now get a booster of the MMRV vaccine.
           Also, immunity sometimes wanes over the years.  In particular, we've now found that pertussis and diphtheria immunity definitely wanes, and adults are now usually getting boosters for pertussis and diphtheria along with tetanus when they get a "tetanus shot." It's called the "Tdap" shot.

      -7.25, -6.26

      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

      by ER Doc on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 04:31:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Speaking of that, have you heard if there is (0+ / 0-)

        any new information on whether COX-1 inhibitors like Tylenol and Advil actually reduce the effectiveness of vaccinations in humans?  I know there was one done on rats and apparently one done on giving Tylenol to infants before the shots but I don't know of anything newer.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 03:13:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  To add to what ER Doc said (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VirginiaJeff, CuriousBoston, JVolvo

      re: #2 - a big part of what makes vaccines effective is herd immunity - not every child is going to respond perfectly to the vaccine, so they require people around them to be vaccinated for their sake. But there's not any way to really tell who's entirely safe from the disease, and who might end up catching it anyway because their immune system just didn't respond to the vaccine well-enough.

      Herd immunity also breaks down when these viruses evolve when they find a likely host. So the more people get measles, the chances of the virus mutating and spreading increases, making those who're vaccinated against the original virus much more vulnerable.

    •  re #1 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Probably quite a few.  It's not unusual for people to be carriers--who have the germ in their body and can spread it around, but don't get infected themselves.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:46:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well (0+ / 0-)

      There's been a single report of a fully vaccinated person being patient zero.

      That's in nearly 50 years of required reporting of measles incidence.

      As far as how a breakout happens in vaccinated kids:

      There's a few possibilities:

      Measles is incredibly contagious.  90% attack rate.

      In close quarters, such as a school setting, it is possible to be hyperexposed to the measles virus, where it simply overwhelms the body's ability to response fast enough to prevent disease.

      2 doses of the MMR is ~99% effective. 1 dose is ~95% effective.  So if they haven't had 2 doses, the chances of infection are increased.

      The last possibility could be issues with the vaccine.  The MMR requires a cold custody chain - so if they had the vaccine vial out of its refrigerator for a prolonged period, it could impact the effectiveness of the vaccine.

  •  Here in DC we were advised to get a booster. (6+ / 0-)

    They listed places around the Fairfax area (Northern Virginia side) where the infected individual frequented including one of the farmers' market.  I am planning to have a baby so upon the advice of my physician I got a booster right then and there.  I lost a day of work and gained a lot of aggravation because someone did not vaccinate their kid.  I didn't have an opinion on the matter because hey it's your kid and who am I to interfere ...but when your kid exposes me and my growing family to who knows what well my opinion has changed forever.

  •  Vaccine-Autism link (8+ / 0-)

    I used to go regularly to meetings of a support group for parents of children with an Autism Spectrum disorder.  Some meetings were dominated by an anti-vaccine mother.  After Wakefield was discredited and CDC studies upheld the safety of vaccines, I thought I would see a change in her outlook. That didn't happen; she continued her anti-vaccine rants.  I tried to explain how foolish it was to be so anti-science, but she didn't appreciate that.  I happened to see her at lunch one day recently, and she is still at it, spouting the same nonsense.

  •  Autism in the Minneapolis Somali Community (0+ / 0-)

    While I make no excuses for not vaccinating, do not be so quick to judge this community.  The autism seen in the Minneapolis Somali community is more severe than in the rest of the state and has been the subject of studies by Autism Speaks and the U of MN.  The parents in this community are struggling to deal with what has happened to their children.

  •  Here's a quick and excellent... (11+ / 0-)

    explanation from Penn & Teller on why the anti-vaxxer crowd is soooooo full of bullshit.

  •  Ideologues have no use for reality (4+ / 0-)

    Otherwise they wouldn't be Ideologues. And they have taken down civilizations. Many times. Let that sink in... These people are not benign and should not be tolerated in any kind of mainstream setting. This is what happens when the media turns from "adversarial" into "crony". Opinions are given the same weight, (and often more) as are facts and quantifiable data. Suddenly, anti vaccination hysteria is being cooed over on the six o'clock news and climate change is a "debate". I watched about two minutes of local news tonight and in that short time I found out that Obama was responsible for "not securing the border" and that a judge, (Angus McGinty), who has just been indicted for taking bribes need not be identified as a Teabag Republican. These  fuckers are going to take us down to if we allow it to continue. We have to call out dangerous ideologues publicly and we have to denounce any media sources that give them a platform.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 03:50:10 PM PDT

  •  ah the anti vaccier CT people (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, hnichols, terrypinder

    proving that anti science also exists on the left too.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 04:01:02 PM PDT

  •  Measles can be DEADLY (14+ / 0-)

    There is a reason why it was once considered the "the cousin killer."  It was observed long ago that children that were infected by a family member sometimes had a more severe disease.  Children with measles should be isolated from other family members to limit exposure.  People have forgotten just how miserable (and dangerous) these childhood diseases really are.

    I went into science for the money and the sex. Imagine my surprise.

    by Mote Dai on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 04:05:23 PM PDT

  •  Considering the stakes in play (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    it's a good thing we don't live in a country that cynically employs fake vaccination campaigns, and that type of thing.


  •  I got the mumps as an adult, probably in the 1970s (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CuriousBoston, wishingwell

    I was lucky it wasn't a bad case, but I missed two weeks of work, and my doctor had to consult with a pediatrician.

  •  Definition of Herd Immunity Hijacked as Well (6+ / 0-)

    Numerous anti-vaccine activists have hijacked the definition of herd immunity. Its true definition is that sufficient members of a populace are vaccinated against a disease so that those who cannot be, or those who can get the disease again, will not be exposed to it.

    I had mumps as a child. Mumps is one of those childhood diseases that can be more dangerous when contracted by an adult (particularly males).

    Two years ago, a group of 4-H girls were carolling over Christmas and came by my house. A couple days later one of the girls displayed the overt signs of mumps; her parents had refused to vaccinate her on religious grounds.

    Then I came down with the mumps. For men, that means your testicles swell up to the size of small grapefruits. My temperature shot up to over 102 degrees and I was burning up the telephone lines to the Veterans Administration to find out what the heck was going on. Without a direct examination, but with my self-reported symptoms, the thought was I most likely had contracted mumps again.

    It was fairly easy to trace back to the 4-Hers: I had not been out except to mow my lawn in over a week before they came round. (I don't get out much.)

    The VA asked me to "self-quarantine": stay indoors, and by all means don't come to the VA hospital to spread it. The VA called my wife about every six hours over a couple weeks to have her take temperatures and such, and give advice to make me comfortable over the course of the disease.

    Several of the 4-H girls in the carolling group came down with mumps as well, since they were also not vaccinated against the disease or vaccines did not take (they are not always effective, another reason for herd immunity).

    The only thing that has come out of it is the local 4-H no longer goes out Christmas carolling—they are concerned either their children might contract diseases or spread them.

    And one more thing occurred: more people went out and got vaccines for their children, as my mumps was reported in the local paper. (Village Trustee Contracts Mumps, headline of the local paper that week.)

    I don't particularly care for the science-denying claims of the anti-vaccine movement. My mother contracted polio in the Fifties; she suffers from post-polio syndrome now.

    The idea that such a horrendous disease as a polio epidemic is only one aeroplane flight away should be a real concern, and anti-science celebrities as Jenny McCarthy making money off those who do not care to know other than what they are told by people who use search engines to inform themselves should be frightening.

    Search engines do not distinguish between facts and fraud, only numbers of views.

    "A Conservative is a fellow who is standing athwart history yelling 'Stop!'"—William F. Buckley, Jr.—Founder of the conservative policy magazine The Weekly Standard

    by Village Vet on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 05:32:36 PM PDT

  •  We seriously need to stop even remotely giving ... (8+ / 0-)

    We seriously need to stop even remotely giving a shit about people's belief systems when discussing scientifically suppirted facts. I don't care if your culture believes that vaccines make your children grow wings and turns your shit purple, you're getting a vaccine.

  •  thanks, jenny and andrew! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Village Vet


    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility. uid 52583 lol

    by terrypinder on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:46:06 PM PDT

  •  My daughter was vaccinated and still got measles (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CuriousBoston, wishingwell

    I had no idea what was happening because I had never seen it before.

    Her neck swelled up like a balloon.  I completely freaked out.

    Not something to mess around with.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:50:48 PM PDT

  •  Notes... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    1) There is substantial autism in the Somali community here. They claim that it's new, and that autism doesn't exist back in Somalia, so like others they grasp at straws and some blame vaccinations.

    2) In the olden days, everybody got these diseases as children, and when children had them, they usually got it young, and had usually picked up some antibodies from Mom's milk. When kids get it now, they don't get so many antibodies from Mom's milk (since Mom has less and less often actually had the disease in favor of a vaccine), so the cases are often worse: it takes longer for the immune system to ramp up from nearer-nothing. And the kids are older, so whatever they got from Mom has lost effect.

  •  what is most depressing (7+ / 0-)

    is that many of these outbreaks are amongst the progressive crunchy-granola communities who pride themselves on being educated about health and fitness; I live in the CA Bay Area, which is filled with a lot of this nonsense.

    Anti-science hysteria doesn't know ideology, apparently.

  •  There's a reason why Dr. Jenner used cowpox. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tarkangi, Shuruq

    Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as shall never be put out.

    by Bollox Ref on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:08:22 PM PDT

  •  Chullin' (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    T100R, crankypatriot, grannygrey50, emelyn

    I am your local expert on Herpes Zoster. Sumbitch tried to kill me when I was 7, and when I reached 69 (no thanks to you HZ). I "enjoyed " the return of ZOSTER (not to be confused with Zoro). Ugly falls short, took 3 months to heal. I enjoyed HZ twice and, if I had a time machine, my first step would be a shot. And, I hate needles.
    I got only one thing to say to non-vaxers: your chillin's DESERVE, and will REMEMBER your fecklessness.
    I return you to your local programing...  

    "the northern lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see. Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee". - Robert Service, Bard of the Yukon

    by Joe Jackson on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:10:17 PM PDT

  •  Child of the 1970s here (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, debris54, CuriousBoston, T100R

    Chickenpox nearly put me in the hospital as a 7-year-old, and I missed two weeks of school.  That means my parents missed weeks of work.  I still have facial scars from the blisters.  I also had shingles; it took a year for the pain to fade.  Why do parents wish this stuff on their kids?

    The measles outbreak in NYC earlier this year was especially ugly because several of the victims were too young to have been vaccinated.  Can you imagine the emotions of the parents of those little babies?  They couldn't do anything but watch the suffering, to see if their kids lived or died.  Sounds like fun times!

    My mother is a polio survivor and retired public health nurse.  It's her opinion that a polio outbreak is just a plane ride away from striking some community, and then the salsa will really hit the fan.

    Banana Republic: it's not just a clothing store.

    by northbronx on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 04:01:47 AM PDT

  •  Small but important point (6+ / 0-)

    Thank you for referring to Andy Wakefield as "Mr." rather than "Dr.", a title he has since been stripped of.

    "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Keillor

    by Spider Stumbled on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 06:15:25 AM PDT

  •  I had chicken pox, measles and mumps as a child. (0+ / 0-)

    Fortunately, I was over 5. I got mumps as  a young teen...very embarrassing...the lumps on my jaw stuck out.
    I remember chicken ox and measles....very light sensitive.and the sores itched terribly. Being a red-head, it may have been worse for me than for my brothers and sisters. Yes, I have scars...not as bad as some I younger sister were vaccinated in time so they did not get measles or mumps. My brother may have been vaccinated, he had a measles scar on his nose and had a really bad case. But I was the only one to get mumps. A little girl in the neighborhood got whooping cough and that is a sound you will never forget!
    I am thankful the vaccinations were around for my children and grandchildren...if you can miss those illnesses, all the better.

    Character is what you are in the dark. Emilio Lizardo in Buckaroo Bonzai

    by Temmoku on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 09:33:24 AM PDT

  •  Thank You Jennie (0+ / 0-)

    McCarthy and all the other nitwits who don't vaccinate their children.  They are trying to kill us all.

  •  Please check on these links (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    in that they often direct one to Skeptic's blogs which direct to more of his blog material.  This is not, as he suggests, reference material supporting a claim.  As for the retracted paper, it was originally published in 1998 and retracted in 2010.  One discredited researcher can't possibly be persuasive.  Furthermore, meta-analysis is just an easy way to write a "research" paper.  Grouping however many studies may or may not reach a correct conclusion.  If anything is true about science, it is that the past gives way to the present and future.  I would insist that readers look up "mitochondrial disease" in the literature to become better informed as to why there is still a debate on the subject of the origins of autism spectrum disorder.  There may be many factors in creating a tipping point where a mito-induced autism may present itself, one of which might still be vaccination.  This would not be detected through meta-analysis which would discount any other causes.  If anything I feel that I'm much more skeptical than Skeptic (read, better informed).  And please have some compassion for parents who are only trying to understand these issues in order to do what is best for their children.  They're not all nuts.

    •  I call bullshit! There are 24 links in this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emelyn, T100R, Darwy

      posting. Only four of them go to his blog.  Most of the rest go to the CDC or to NIH.  

      Interesting how much you know of Skeptic, given that that is your first comment here.

      •  OK. Where do I begin? (0+ / 0-)

        Have you actually read the material in the links?  The substantive links really are often directed at his own blog.  Most of the others are simple definitions or explanations which have little bearing on his premise--that is, that believing in a connection between vaccinations and autism is pseudoscience.  Here's the breakdown of the links:  8 medical descriptions/definitions; 3 pop articles (2 attacking Wakefield); 3-part expose (on Wakefield); 3 scientific papers (re-cited at bottom); and 4 blogs.  Furthermore, his blogs are full of ad hominem attacks on (you guessed it) Wakefield and links to more of his blogs.  So I stand by what I've stated previously.

        •  Oh no - he links to his blog (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          T100R, SkepticalRaptor

          Which are fully sourced with the appropriate references to support his argument.

          You know, what intelligent folks do.

        •  That the best you can do? (0+ / 0-)

          I don't write for pseudoscientific woo-pushers. I write for educated people, who may not be experts in medicine, so I define terms to help the reader. Their in links because if you already know, you don't click. If you don't know, you click. It's just common courtesy for readers.

          All citations I use are peer-reviewed articles. "Pop articles?" That's laughable. It was published in the British Journal of Medicine. Where have you published? Natural News? The Republican Anti-science Journal?

          Margaret, you're on the wrong side of the issue. You have no background in immunology, virology, physiology, microbiology, epidemiology, or anything that's actually useful.

          Skepticism is evaluating the quality and quantity of evidence to reach a conclusion. It is not gathering evidence to support a closed minded conclusion.

          by SkepticalRaptor on Sat Jun 21, 2014 at 12:40:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  fun fact! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    If you seriously avoid vaccinating your child because you fear autism (regardless of a link between the two), you are literally saying you'd rather your child be dead than autistic, therefore you are a piece of shit. <3

    The wandering soul knows no rest

    by caterfree10 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 10:12:27 AM PDT

  •  Anti-vaxxers will get (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    T100R, emelyn, Eral Felder

    no sympathy from me as a few found out when they were refusing to vaccinate for everything.  Their 'reason' on polio was "it has been eradicated in the US".  Since it is a disease caused from a live virus, the only reason we don't see it here is that most have been vaccinated against Polio.  I TOLD my friend and her friends that I could have no sympathy for them if their child contracts polio (most were military moms..with spouses who have been overseas) if they had to stand there beside today's equivalent of an iron lung and explain to their child that they may never walk again, or breathe on their own again, or have to be in braces, or die, because they didn't want to 'make the decision to vaccinate as it was up to the child when they were 'old enough'.  Oh, yes, that is another reason you hear.  I am a polio survivor, non-paralytic, in 1952 when I was 13.  Do the math; I am 75, and now must deal with what is called Post Polio Sequelae.  Weakening muscles, severe scoliosis..developed in the last 6 years... problems with anesthesia (it can kill me), swallowing issues..and a number of other things.  Anyone who had polio and appeared to have no after effects is probably going to develop it, about 30 years AFTER you ' recovered'.  
    Therapy back then was "use it or lose it"; today it is "Conserve to Preserve" as our neuron in our muscles and spinal cords were damaged and over the years we literally overused all of these parts.  
    Or, maybe they would have like to have watched several of my high school students land in the hospital (shots had been given but apparently needed boosters as teens) and almost die as a result of chicken pox (now at risk for shingles, or measles.
    One of these non-vaxxing moms, refused to get the shots..and was going to let her son 'decide when he was 12.  I lectured her and NOT NICELY as we are friends.  Three weeks later he broke out with chickenpox...and was sick!  My comment to her...well, now the rest of his life he is at risk for shingles, are you happy?  I reminded her the shingles vaccines is NOT 100 per cent effective.
    LABEL ME "NON-VAXXERS ARE IDIOTS".  For all of them it had nothing to do with religion; most also had college degrees.

  •  The crux of anti-vac people is... (0+ / 0-)

    their attempt to identify the culprits who are responsible for their child's autism. Because it is definitely not themselves.

  •  Parents/Caregivers fault (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry but if these people are dumb enough to not vaccinate their kids, they kind of get what they deserve. You would think that seeing the cases in their community they would get the message that vaccines do make a difference and change their behavior.

  •  Those who (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    deny vaccinations to their children should be charged with child endangerment and being a menace to public health.  Measles and other "childhood" diseases are highly communicable and pose serious dangers many who contract it.  

  •  it is unfortunate that (0+ / 0-)

    the notion of democracy entails the idea that if one individual does not want to vaccinate their child, all the rest of us must suffer.

    it is time that the good of the people, in a situation like this, outweighs the rights of that individual who refuses vaccination for their child... these parents have demonstrated they are not capable of rearing a child...

    just as with child abuse, the child needs to be removed from the parents to be brought up by someone else, the parents jailed and neutered so that they cannot have children of their own... and they must never be allowed to care for other children... their destruction of other's lives needs to be fined and the others involved must be compensated...

    this reminds me of dog owners whose untrained animals attack humans but the owner sees no problem with this... I believe it is our right to make sure that this cannot happen, no matter what it takes...

  •  vaccines (0+ / 0-)

    Why would my vaccinated kids be a threat to your vaccinated kids if you were so sure  your vaccine worked?

    •  Several good reasons. (0+ / 0-)

      1. Children may not be old enough to get specific vaccine. They depend on people (adult and older kid) around them to be vaccinated to shield them from the disease.
      2. Vaccine is not 100% effective. There're always those who, for one reason or another, do not develop immunity even with vaccine (or they cannot get vaccine due to allergic reactions). For them, it is up to those around them to protect

    •  Sigh, more anti-vax bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      1. Measles may have lower case fatality, but measles can also cause encephalitis and result in other complication such as permanent brain damage.
      2. It's true that measles death-rate has been decreasing before vaccine due to better hygeine, treatment etc. But it was the vaccine that cause a massive drop in measles case.

      •  Fatality rate for measles was wildly exaggerated (0+ / 0-)

        From the article:

        "Prior to the vaccine, 3-4 million cases of measles occured in the United States each year. <—True.

        Also true, however, is that of those 3-4 million cases, only about 450 people died each year from it in the years before the vaccine.

        I have figured out the percentage of people who died from measles of all of the measles cases back then. 0.015%. Suddenly, measles seems a little less scary doesn’t it?

        Also, consider that in 1963, the population was 189,241,798. That means that prior to the vaccine, the percentage of the entire US population that died from measles was .000237%.

        There are over 6 billion people on the planet. That’s shown as 6,000,000,000 numerically. Correct me if you disagree, but when over 150,000 people die each day total, is 540 people dying of measles each day really that outrageous? They’re counting on us not comprehending the vast population of our global society. 240,000 children in low income countries alone die each year of neonatal infection. 1.26 million people die each year from diabetes and yet they’re still pushing the high fructose corn syrup in school lunches.With vaccines, the US went from a .000237 PERCENT death rate among the general population from measles in 1963 to a 0.000000% measles death rate.

        In 1963, there were about 450 deaths from measles.Meanwhile, about 12,000 people died from stomach ulcers and the likes. Just over 43,000 people died from car accidents in 1963. Over 700,000 people died from heart disease.

        In 1963, you were more likely to be one of the 9200 people murdered that year than to die of measles. If you were born in 1963, you were more likely to die from a congenital disease than from measles. In 1963, it was about 46 times more likely for a child to die from a congenital malformation than for someone to die from the measles.

        Frankly, in 1963, you were about 46 times more likely to kill yourself than you were to die from measles."

        and later (same article):

        If you ask people who had measles as a child what the disease was like, they will likely tell you that it wasn’t exactly an enjoyable experience, but they survived – and came out with lifelong, natural immunity. Kevin Brooker of the Calgary Herald wrote a piece about that very thing a few days ago, in which he recalled his experience with the disease:

        Surely, I’m not the only oldtimer who finds it curious that cases of measles – even as few as one or two in a region – are now the stuff of news headlines. Has something changed about the disease that most of us got, then got over, then never thought about again? It would have been about 50 years ago, one year after the widespread introduction of the measles vaccine, that I walked into the kitchen, showed my mom my speckled belly, and said, “I think I have measles.”

        Other than that, however, I don’t remember any details of my affliction, just that it came and went without much trauma.

        And I certainly don’t remember my mother evincing any panic on that day of discovery. If measles has deadly properties, they were not part of the social dialogue back then. Mom did tell me one thing: “Well, once you get over it, you’ll never get it again.” "

        The modern measles "outbreak" is resulting in HIGHER death rates because it is focusing on adults who no longer have life-long immunity thanks to depending on vaccines vs natural exposure (again from the article):

        "In the pre-vaccine era, when the natural measles virus infected the entire population, measles — “typically a benign childhood disease,” as Clinical Pediatrics described it — was welcomed for providing lifetime immunity, thus avoiding dangerous adult infections. In today’s vaccine era, adults have accounted for one quarter to one half of measles cases; most of them involve pneumonia, one-quarter of them hospitalization.

        Also importantly, measles during pregnancies have risen dangerously because expectant mothers no longer have lifetime immunity. Today’s vaccinated expectant mothers are at risk because the measles vaccine wanes with time and because it often fails to protect against measles.

        Vaccinated mothers have little antibody to pass on — only about one-quarter as much as mothers protected by natural measles — leaving infants vulnerable three months after birth, according to a study last year in the Journal of Infectious Diseases.

        The NVIC backs up Solomon’s points:

        Evidence has been published in the medical literature that vaccinated persons can get measles because either they do not respond to the vaccine or the vaccine’s efficacy wanes over time and vaccinated mothers do not transfer long lasting maternal antibodies to their infants to protect them in the first few months of life."

        Not propaganda.


  •  I couldn't read ... (0+ / 0-)

    all of the comments - did anyone mention a 'causal connection' between the high incidence in Minnesota AND the fact that Michelle Bachmann (R-MN) said a woman told her a vaccination caused the woman's daughter's autism (or something like that)?  There's scientific proof if I ever saw it!!  Sheeesh!!!

  •  Measers can also cause (0+ / 0-)

    deformities in babies of pregnant women.

  •  measles and brain damage (0+ / 0-)

    Something else measles can cause is brain damage which causes retardation. I am not sure how it works but do remember a distant relative who was around 15 years old but her brain was that of a 3 year because measles settled on her brain when she was 3, she grew older but her brain didn't.. I don't know how or why her measles did this since I was a child myself when my parents  told us why she acted like child instead of like a teenager,  I remember having measles , years before there was a vaccinate for it, and I was miserable , couldn't go outside, had to stay in a darken room and stay away from my siblings, so measles is more than a rash they can cause mental retardation and or death.


  •  Don't trivialize legitimate concerns. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mack The Turtle

    I am a scientist and also a scientific translator who translates considerable material in biotech, pharmaceutical, and biomedical areas. One year half my workload was for a vaccine manufacturer, meaning I had to read many millions of words in the medical literature. My feeling was that in our legitimate desire to protect, the data is being misread.

    So many things happen before a vaccine becomes available: patients are identified and isolated earlier, hygiene practices improve to limit contagion, etc. Often the disease is on its way out before the campaign starts, and then we have the very real immune system boost from the hope that brings. Objective measures of short term and long term immune response to the vaccine are rarely used. I saw one study that did, concerning a flu vaccine, and only a minority of those vaccinated showed a reliable response. This does not mean a vaccine is always useless, and I certainly understand why people want them when potentially exposed to the disease, but the reality is that the vaccine is not a guarantee against the disease and it is definitely not zero risk.

    Pretending that those who contracted measles but were vaccinated must have not really been vaccinated shows serious lack of knowledge about how this works. The hope is that prior (hopefully relatively benign) exposure to the pathogen or part of the pathogen will help the immune system remember how to combat it the next time. This doesn't always happen, or else the immune system simply isn't strong enough to launch an effective defense.

    My generation had a small handful of vaccinations. One friend was unvaccinated because her older brother had died from one. This was a wise precaution by her parents, since although most children can usually deal with the shock of a vaccine, some cannot and genetics is likely to be an important factor. Sudden infant death syndrome may well be related to the shock of vaccination, for example, and some communities have improved SIDS figures by delaying vaccinations to an older age. But the current generation is expected to have more than three dozen vaccinations before the age of six, and concerns are rising in the medical community about the risks this poses and the ultimate effect on developing immune systems. I would hate to be a parent today trying to decide what to do, surrounded by the immature trivializing I see in this post of very real concerns. I always advise trying to at least get individual vaccines rather than multiples, to space them out as much as possible, and whenever possible (depending on the local situation) to delay vaccinations to an older age. But three dozen!!! That really is alarming to me. We are playing with fire and we don't know enough to predict which individuals are most at risk and what hidden long-term effects may arise. For any vaccine, at some point more problems (including death) are caused by the vaccine than might be solved (as incidence of the disease falls for any reason) and the vaccine is withdrawn, but the break point can be very different for different individuals and genetic groups. We just don't systematically keep track of the data with that in mind, so even general studies of such issues are difficult. (Plus to be honest, there's no money in it.)

    Doctors practicing on humans may have to stifle their public concerns in the face of the blind acceptance of such vaccines as we see here, but veterinary doctors have been more vocal about the problems they are seeing in over-vaccinated animals and also problems stemming from vaccination campaigns for wild animals (where rabies vaccinations have actually sometimes backfired, introducing the disease more than preventing it). Concerns about rabies are understandable because effective treatment is lacking and it's fatal. But we really should be looking at the immune response rather than just blindly vaccinating year after year, each time risking adverse reaction to the vaccine or adjuvant (maybe delayed: rabies vaccinations on cats started to be given in the leg because of a nasty tendency to cause cancer, so they can amputate the leg) or simply a longer term depressive effect on the immune system in general, connected with poorer health. One vet who vaccinated my 15 year old cat with a 3-year rabies vaccine said "If she makes it to 18, we won't do this again. At her age, either her immune system knows how to deal with the disease or it doesn't and nothing will change that." Even though reactions to vaccinations are very underreported, vets are worried.

  •  Ebola (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mack The Turtle

    So today we here that the Ebola outbreak in Africa is out of control. Over on AOL/Huffpoo the same type of person who says their children don't need to be vaccinated are saying that what is happening in Africa could never happen here and yet right here is proof that it is and it will. Ebola has a 21 day incubation period. One person contracting Ebola could return back to their community and within weeks it will be all over the country considering how mobile we are. And, even after 40 years of research there is no known cure for Ebola.

    Forget Global Warming. Mother Nature is a serial killer when she sees that there are too many of one species who are decimating all the other species. How interesting that a virus acting just like humans would be the thing that could make us go extinct because humans have been acting just like a virus devouring its host for about a thousand years now.

    One of the problems, as pointed out by a man named Mayers 50 years ago is that the smarter a species is the less likely it is to survive very long because it does not adapt. All the IPhones and IPads in the world will not help humans who are smart but not smart enough to realize that they were told not to breed like flies and yet they did and still are even tho the extinction rate of living organisms is now higher than during the last extinction and humans are the cause of it.

    It is technology that has let the Andy Walkers spread their lies around the world. That, coupled with the deliberate dumbing down of our education in favor having more money for needless wars that have made Americans in particular of believing political scientists, propagandists for the Wealthy Elite and their corporations, and their paid for lackeys in Congress and the White House and SCOTUS rather than believing in real scientists. If a scientist writes something and the dumbed down people can't understand it they turn to a TV or Radio Talking Head or the Clergy to explain it to them, which they never do in truthful terms.

    Humans are a dead end species. And they will be the only species who were smart enought o figure out that it was going to happen, what would cause it, how to prevent it, but wasn't smart enough to do any thing about it. The human species ends with the last human eating the next to last human and all that will remain are some flags on the Moon.

  •  Re Vaccine "Truthers" (0+ / 0-)

    Dr. Margaret MD here, a board certified OB-Gyn, (Rice Univeristy, cum laude;  Baylor Medical School, High Honors).... Like Mr.SkepticalRaptor who wrote this anti-anti-vaccine "truthers" diatribe above, I used to believe the same, because I too had been brain washed-ucated with "facts" from the CDC/FDA/BigPharma regarding the safety of vaccines.

    Besides many misstatements above- it's important to know  Dr. Wakefield never said vaccines cause autism, he brought up a possible link because of the gut/brain connection and since 2012 every bit of his data has been exonerated, as has he.

    "And if vaccines are so “safe,” then why did the U.S Supreme Court officially refer to vaccines as “unavoidably unsafe” in Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, No. 09-152, a decision which also granted the entire vaccine industry immunity from ALL liability in cases of injury and death? -source: (24 June 2013) -and if you wouldn’t refer to advocates for safer cars as “anti-car,” then why would you refer to advocates for safer vaccines as “anti-vaccine”? - See more at:

    Once you've taken care of children with severe autism, a horrendous lifelong disability, watching that rate rise exponentially over the past 30 years (since I've been in medicine), having 3 teenage girls in my practice completely disabled following the HPV vaccine, and having one of my own children affected, you begin to question the "science and safety."  I am not anti-vaccine, I am interested in safety.

    What is completely absent from the discussion above is the question of epigenetics.  We have learned, particularly over the past 10 years with the genome project,  certain people are much more susceptble to the damaging effects of toxins, drugs, environmental exposures etc. Now, with the ever compounding problem of generational toxin bioaccumulation, everything from petrochemicals to pesticides,excess antibiotics, prescription medications, plastics,  GMO phoods, and the vast problem of overconsumption malnutrion from the SAD diet (Standard American Diet)-- we have rendered an entire generation of genetically vulnerable children highly susceptible to the body burden of excess vaccines by crippling their detoxification response.  An out of control auto-immune response is turned on, leading to a nuclear reaction of neuroinflammation and toxicty these kids can't turn off, nor detoxify, thus creating permanent longterm brain damage and disabilty.  The current numbers of children affected (1 in 68!) , particularly boys (1 in 42!!!) far outweighs the data of death and disability statistics for measles.  You dont think parents have a right to be concerned and ask questions?

    No because you must also believe the Koch brothers, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Media, Big Agra, Big Medicine and FDA/USDA/CDC government pundits that tell us that there is no such thing as climate change, that fracking chemicals are safe, that Tylenol is super safe (#1 cause of liver failure in this country), and that GMO "phoods" are harmless to people and planet.  You probably also believed the tobacco industry when they told us their was no link between smoking and lung cancer.  

    Yes, yes, I know you cited Pediatrics and several other Scholarly Medical Journals above but check out their valitidy and who funds all those studies (by Stanford Med School Professor of epidemiology: Ioannidis, J. P. A. (2005). "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False". PLoS Medicine 2 (8): e124. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124. PMC 1182327. PMID 1606072)

    So, please, by all means give as many vaccines to your children and grandchildren as you can without asking any questions. Certainly don't bother to ask, "Just who is benefitting financially from this push of quadrupling the number of vaccines children are recieving in the past 40 years"? Oh yes, Big Pharma has only our best interests at heart and in altruistically benefitting the planet.....

    Tsk, tsk Daily Kos- I usually love your articles...have you asked just who is funding Mr. SkepticRaptor? What's his skin in the game that he doesn't even bother to try and balance his extremism or explicate the concerns of real parents, instead marginalizing them as  "lunatics" . Sounds a little bit like a "journalist" from Faux News to me...I think you have been unwittingly infiltrated by the very Corporatacracy that you all are so vigilantly trying to expose. Wake up and smell the BS.

    •  All that BS (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tk421, catilinus

      ...ending with an ad hom attack of 'pharma shill' against Skeptical Raptor

      Yep, typical AV talking points.

    •  Massive ad hominem attack (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tk421, catilinus

      I self fund my writing, as you can tell, given the frequent grammatical and spelling errors. However, many of them are OSX autocorrects because OSX thinks it knows what I'm thinking. But that's another story.

      I tell you motivates me. Babies dying because of vaccine preventable diseases.

      And there is absolutely no evidence that vaccines cause autism. In fact, proving the negative, there are actually boatloads of evidence that vaccines don't cause autism, and in some cases the rate of autism is lower with vaccinated pregnant mothers.

      So there "Dr." Margaret.

      Skepticism is evaluating the quality and quantity of evidence to reach a conclusion. It is not gathering evidence to support a closed minded conclusion.

      by SkepticalRaptor on Sat Jun 21, 2014 at 12:29:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That being said, before Big Pharma became SO bi... (0+ / 0-)

    That being said, before Big Pharma became SO big, vaccinations at school or public health were free or a dollar each. Are kids getting so many vaccinations at really high prices for greed?

  •  But, but... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm 57 years old and getting the measles was kind of a rite of passage. As kids we'd compare notes on who had already gotten the measles, mumps and chicken pox. I remember my mom dragging me over to visit friends who were sick because she wanted me to get it too. What happened that it's now such a scary illness?

  •  But, but.... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm 57 years old and I remember that getting the measles was a sort of rite of passage. As kids we'd compare notes on who had already gone through the measles, mumps and chicken pox. My mom would drag us over to see friends who were sick with any one of the three illnesses to make sure we got it. What happened that has made the measles so different today?

  •  Cryin (0+ / 0-)

    Sounds like someone's cryin' again.

  •  What utter garbage. I AM in my late 50's and ye... (0+ / 0-)

    What utter garbage. I AM in my late 50's and yes, I do remember measles as being just a rash. Mumps was swollen cheeks and chicken pox was itchy. Yet now these childhood diseases that everyone I knew got are seen as instant killers of all. Just nonsense.

    Instead of assuming your readers are all pro-vaccine and agree with insulting those who choose not to submit to a risky medical procedure, the Daily Kos ought to be a little more open-minded and stop cherry-picking and twisting facts. In fact, most outbreaks are in vaccinated people. Here is but one link confirming that vaccines indeed fail:

    I vaccinated my oldest child. The MMR vaccine caused serious health problems for him which took years to overcome. I stopped vaccinating all of my children when I saw firsthand that they do NOT ensure good health but compromise it. They are all grown and very healthy, unlike so many in our society today. Shame on you all for insulting others for something you clearly don't believe in or otherwise you would just get your shots and be protected. It shouldn't matter what others do.

    In fact, though, no vaccine is guaranteed to work, let alone for any length of time and every single one has the potential for serious side effects, including death.

    What a disappointment that the Daily Kos is a vehicle for governmental propaganda meant to benefit pharmaceutical companies.

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