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About two weeks ago, on July 14, The head of the Palestinian Authority submitted a formal request to the UN, requesting designation of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a UN Protectorate territory, where the UN would take over administrative, civil and military control of these areas. Here is a copy of the Letter, with The Secretary General's forwarding note to the Security Council.  

Protectorate status is distinct from Trustee status, where a Non-UN entity assumes direct control.  In the modern era, UN Protectorates have been established in East Timor, Cambodia, Slavonia, and Kosovo.See UN protectorates
What does this mean?

A Trusteeship for Palestine?Trustee status for Palestine has been proposed several times, most notably by the US in 1948, after the British conceded they could no longer contain the Arab-Jewish violence a couple of months before the partition plan was to go into effect, a policy reversal from supporting the Partition Plan.  

On March 18, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine reported that it had been unable to arrange a truce and recommended a temporary trusteeship for Palestine in order to restore peace.

The following day, United States Ambassador to the United Nations Warren Austin announced that the United States believes that the partition of Palestine was no longer a viable option. On March 20, United States Secretary of State George Marshall confirmed the United States' view that the proposal for a temporary United Nations trusteeship for Palestine is the only idea presently being considered that will allow the United Nations to address the difficult situation in Palestine.

The plan was drafted by Clark Clifford and Max Lowenstein.
"The United States has proposed to the Security Council a temporary United Nations trusteeship for Palestine to provide a government to keep the peace. Such trusteeship was proposed only after we had exhausted every effort to find a way to carry out partition by peaceful means. Trusteeship is not proposed as a substitute for the partition plan but as an effort to fill the vacuum soon to be created by the termination of the mandate on May 15. The trusteeship does not prejudice the character of the final political settlement. It would establish the conditions of order which are essential to a peaceful solution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

UN Trusteeship was proposed again in 2003 by Martin Indyk, during the height of the second Intifada.

Establishment of a Protectorate, or a trusteeship, requires UN Security Council Approval.  The US position has been consistent that resolution of the disputed territory can only be accomplished through bilateral negotiations between the PA and Israel.  A US veto to any resolution changing the status of the parties would be expected.

Kosovo is an instructive example, although Russia initially agreed to the protectorate status, they later objected to allegedly extra-legal declaration of independence and UNGA recognition.  Israel still hasn't recognized Kosovar independence, likely because of the precedent it would establish for Palestine. Israel–Kosovo relations

Serbia still claims Kosovo as part of her Sovereign territory, to date 107 out of 193 member states have recognized Kosovo as independent.

Is this a way out of this mess?   Has the opportunity for Bi-lateral negotiations been blown up by this recent conflict, or has it gained new urgency?

Poll

Protectorate Status for Palestine

80%49 votes
19%12 votes

| 61 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  It could be a step toward resolution (9+ / 0-)

    But it will never happen, because the US will veto it, because Israel wants to gobble up the West Bank

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:06:27 AM PDT

    •  And the Palestinians want the West Bank (7+ / 0-)

      for a future state.   How do these two opposing positions get reconciled?   The status quo is unsustainable, everything the US has tried hasn't succeeded in reducing the violence.  Time for a new strategy?

      •  I haven't seen the Us take any action (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kingsmeg, poco, frostbite

        that is in fact aimed at reducing the violence. The official policy amounts to an attempt to put a bandaid on a wound, not to heal it, but to hide the signs of abuse.

        I do have some hope that the US will allow Palestine to become a UN member state if the PA continues down this path. Obama, for all his faults, has been the best president when it has come to this issue and I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't completely opposed to Palestinian statehood in practice as well as in theory. What that translates to in real terms is a different question.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:28:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Obama admin and Kerry (9+ / 0-)

          Has put a lot of effort and political capital into the bi-lateral negotiations strategy.  We got Abbas to agree to postpone going to the UN, and got Netanyahu to agree to negotiate.  

          Kerry and Obama are being mocked in the Israeli press for their efforts, some of it pretty insulting stuff.  

          I do believe Obama recognizes that Palestinian statehood is a necessary historical inevitability and that the current policies are not contributing to that goal.   Time for something diferent.

      •  Yes, (7+ / 0-)

        1. Step one make all Occupied Territories a UN protector or immediately recognize Palestine within its 1967 borders, which includes Gaza,  with Abbas and PA as the government, and have them ask for UN security assistance to displace IDF troops.

        Your alternative of a temporary transitional UN protectorate may be a good idea which could be implemented immediately.

        IDF could be be ordered to withdraw all troops from Gaza and be given 30 days to withdraw to the 67 borders.

        2. If Palestine is not recognized already in Step 1.A. then do so now, so Abbas and the PA can be held responsible for any rocket fire from Gaza.

        148 nations who voted for their UN membership should recognize them immediately bilaterally, and the UN should take up their full membership again, this time the U.S. not vetoing.

        3. Palestine and Israel could then negotiate mutual land swap to minimize the number of stranded illegal settlers or not depending on their choices.

        4. From this more peaceful and stable foundation the two parties could negotiate at whatever pace they like, and do it in pieces rather than have to make everything contingent on an all at once grand bargain which was never going to be possible.

        Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

        by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:31:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A peace stimulus is another thing needed (5+ / 0-)

          A brilliant comment from yesterday by mettle fatigue

          Without commenting on Israel one way or the (13+ / 0-)
          other, the point is that handing money over to any entity that can be tempted to pocket any of it privately is unlikely to go any differently than in the past when puppet dictators and warlords were paidoff directly and openly.

          You make a good point about vietnam and of course we all remember that several billion shipped shrinkwrapped on pallets to Iraq didn't reach its intended destination either.

          My guess would be that, as labor-intensive and apparently expensive (altho not if it actually does the job for a change) as it might be, actually literally shipping american-made construction materials and equipment and humanitarian materials and equipment and daily life materials and equipment including food and whatever volunteers (Turkish etc perhaps?) who are experts in the use of it all, and keep shipping, and keep shipping, so the glut makes all this stuff utterly useless to cache in order to sell on the blackmarket, is more likely to rebuild, re-equipment, feed, medically care for, and start-up business, infrastructure, education, health and safety in a way money changing hands has never done.

          Tops on the list, solar arrays for literally every rooftop and all the tech materials & training to make Gaza THE electricity supplier to the region and too valuable to all concerned for anyone to destabilize the supply by smuggling weapons or dictatorial personnel in.  Rebuild it better, give the training & fill the jobs & set up the future training & educational institutions, hand them the keys, and leave. Leave the people so well equipped to run their own lives that dictatorial political machines funded by outside entities with destructive agendas simply cannot compete.

          Ditto westbank.  Ditto into every much huger far more brutal armed conflict in africa that we are so assiduously not watching.

          And by the way, ditto every "indian" reservation in the U.S.  Americans really have no grounds for telling other people far way how to solve their problems.  We've had a hundred years to solve exactly the same ones here and we've refused to do so.

          Put americans back to work manufacturing the stuff that poorest of the world need the most, stamp lady liberty on every piece of it, and give it away in such magnitude that nothing but truely a fresh good start can be done with it.  If nothing else, the jobs will put paychecks in hands empty to the skin&bone here, and maybe take back america from the oligarchs WE have on our own backs.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:09:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If we could get large scale solar desalinazation (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, a2nite, shaharazade, frostbite, Sandino

            plant up and running it would change things tremendously. That's one of the big problems access to water.

            Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

            by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  A huge problem is that (0+ / 0-)

          the 1967 "borders" are not the borders of the State of Palestine, they are merely claims.

          •  true (6+ / 0-)

            the real borders are the UNGA 181 borders.  

            •  Not those either (0+ / 0-)

              Palestine has no borders and no territory. Just claims.

              •  What are Israel's borders? (6+ / 0-)

                Do any of us know? All Israel has are claims as well.

                It's *Gandhi*, not Ghandi

                by poco on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:54:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The borders of Israel are highly disputed (0+ / 0-)

                  but nonetheless it has sovereign recognized territory. The Palestinians do not.

                  •  where? (0+ / 0-)

                    do you have a map of which parts of Palestine are sovereign and recognized?

                    •  No, I do not (0+ / 0-)

                      because Palestine does not have any sovereign territory.

                      •  I meant a map of Israel's (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT, poco, frostbite

                        sovereign and recognized boundaries.  Egypt and part of Jordan is all that seems to meet those criteria.

                      •  Are you saying (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        poco, frostbite

                        that Palestine does not exist that it just claims to be there? If that is the case how can the Israelis be at 'war' with a sovereignty that does not exist? Talk about circular logic. Perhaps it's this kind of arrogant denying the Palestinians who live in this territory any rights to the land they are forced to live on that gave rise to Hamas. "Palestine does not have any sovereign territory''. Occupied territory rather then sovereign territory seems quite the catch22 as far as the rights of the Palestinian people who's status remains forever in limbo. So where are they living?  In a concentration camp, a reservation, a refugee camp?

                        •  Who said the Israelis (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sandino

                          were at war with a sovereignty?

                          To answer your first question, Palestine pretty much exists as a recognized state with institutions, but without sovereign land.

                          Personally, I am in favor of the Palestinians declaring Gaza sovereign Palestine, they can throw in Area A as well. And they should declare that every resident of Gaza is a Palestinian citizen residing within Palestine. But they choose not to.

                •  The US and UN have recognized Israel within the (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT, shaharazade, poco, frostbite

                  1967 borders I believe.

                  With the idea that mutually agreeable land swaps could minimize the number of illegal settlements stranded on the wrong side.

                  One such plan both sides have apparently come close to agreeing on would leave 80% of the now illegal settlement within Israel in exchange for land now in Israel that have lots of Palestinian on them.  

                  It is not clear these Palestinians want to go, so I do not know more details than that.

                  Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                  by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:07:16 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  the 181 claims (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan, WattleBreakfast, HoundDog, AoT

                would have the greatest legal legitimacy

                •  The PA (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  unfangus, frostbite

                  seems ready to concede the territorial gains made by Israel outside of UNGA partition boundaries, but limited to the Armistice line, as negotiated by Ralph Bunche.

                  So, establish the protectorate on that basis, with allowing for negotiations for land swaps or purchases or other arrangement after the Protectorate is established.

                  The important thing is to create security for Israel, and to protect the Palestinians.

                  •  The idea of starting with an immediate temporary (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Pilsner, frostbite

                    border first subject to negotiating seems good to me whatever could be done instantly. Hell it could just be Ramullah empty deserts and Gaza this week, it could stop the fighting.

                    The would be seen as first step an not meant to establish precedent for the final border but just as a way of protecting innocent civilians on both sides of the border.

                    In fact, it seems as this approach would almost be inevitable because Israel is not going to agree to move any of its current tanks or military bases without a hell of a lot more pressure which the world does not have the political muscle for now.

                    So you need to start with whatever is achievable no matter how small.

                    Maybe just Gaza and 10% of the West Bank. To land UN troops at first.

                    Then pressures can escalate as far as possible to keep pushing step by step towards final borders.

                    The announced intention until mutual swaps should be for the UN to get to the 1967 borders.

                    Israel will insist on something larger than that.  

                    The UN should start where ever it is possible to start without violence between the UN and IDF.

                    Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                    by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:15:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  what are these Pilsner. I'm not familiar with (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  shaharazade

                  these.

                  Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                  by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:08:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Boy this is almost HR-able. Views like this (0+ / 0-)

                should not represent our blog to the rest of the world.

                This is disgusting.
                 

                •  Why is that? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  Do you have an aversion to facts?

                •  Which statement WattleBreakfast. I can't follow (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WattleBreakfast

                  which one you are talking about.  If it is one of mine I'm sorry please explain what error Iv'e made and I'll change it if it is wrong.  

                  I'm just looking for a working solution where progress can be made without mutual agreement which seems impossible now.

                  Unless the parties decide on a single state solution. Which I have no idea how that would work.

                  So I may still be stuck in a two-state solution mindset which may be obsolete now, if so I'm sorry.

                  Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                  by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:19:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not your comment HoundDog. 1918's. (0+ / 0-)

                    Where he denies even that the occupation exists.  Not in those words - I am just SICK of these veiled attempts to deny the existence of the people of Palestine (whether by calling them Arabs or in this case denying that Israel is occupying Palestinian land!).

                    "What borders!"  Ha!

                    Uhhhhk!

          •  But the 1967 border are the basis for both US and (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pilsner, frostbite

            UN policy is it not?

            Yes, I know this is huge but you have to start somewhere.

            The reason I support the US and UN position is that it give Israel the incentive to come back to the bargaining table immediately.

            The strategic blunder we made was allowing Netanyahu and the Greater Israel Likudniks to think by infinite delay their "facts on the ground strategy" was working so well they could get more with the current widespread call in the Israeli press to annex zones A and B in the West Bank.

            If they can do this why should the agree to any negotiated peace?

            We set up the system so their best interest is served by infinite delay and that's exactly what they are doing.

            We need to reverse what negotiators call the "time value of delay" so that Netanyahu and the right get nervous that if they wait too long the already established state of Palestine will become more comfortable with the idea of keeping the 1967 borders..

            On this we should not give Israel the right of veto. This is something the UN can enforce.

            Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

            by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:04:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The problem with 1967 lines (0+ / 0-)

              as a starting point is that within negotiations the Palestinians would be granted a huge gain without having to negotiate for it. The Israelis would then be forced to make concessions just to keep the Kotel. Or the Palestinians could just refuse all land swaps and end up with the 1967 lines as a border, with zero negotiating cost.

              If the Palestinians want 1967 as a basis of their territory it should be the ending point, not the start point.

              •  The Palestinians already view (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, frostbite, Lepanto

                the 1967 border as a huge concession to Israeli aggression in 1948, capturing and occupying lands outside the 181 boundary.

                US policy is that the 67 borders should be a starting point, so let's start there.

                •  Viewed as a concession (0+ / 0-)

                  Only by anyone who believes that the State of Palestine should run from the river to the sea.

                  And the 1967 line is not a border, 181 did not create boundaries and Israel was not the aggressor in 1948.

                  The one thing you have right is US policy, but that began (and may end) with Obama.

              •  Why should it be the ending point? (0+ / 0-)

                What gives Israel any more right to that territory than Palestinians? They shouldn't have to negotiate for something that is by all rights already theirs.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:53:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  if the International community doesn't agree that the West Bank belongs to Israel, Israel will continue to kill and oppress Palestinians.   The price of them stopping is granting acquiescence to their acquisition of territory by conquest.

                  The "right" is inherent in "might".  We have lost a lot of ground since the UN was founded to prevent this kind of thing.

                •  It is not... (0+ / 0-)

                  "by all rights theirs". The Jewish people are indigenous and Israel's claim to Jerusalem is superior to the of the Palestinians.

                  •  Bullshit (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lepanto

                    The Jews conquered the people lived in the area and occupied "Israel" for less time then they have been away. This nonsense about having a claim to Israel is based not on historical fact but instead on mythology. Keep up the racist lies though, maybe someone will believe you. It's worked so far, maybe you and Israel can keep it up long enough to make greater Israel a reality through further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Since they have less of a right to be there than Jews and all.

                    The only "right" that Israel has over Palestinian land is the "Right" of Conquest. It's good to see that all the supporters of that disgusting political theory are outing themselves. It makes it all the more clear for people of good intention what Israel's goal is, Greater Israel, as illustrated by your justifications of conquest.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 02:54:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Netanyahu's announced intention of never (13+ / 0-)

      withdrawing IDF troops from the Occupied Territories is sufficient grounds on its own to justify such an idea, which would might also rescue the idea of a two state solution which Netanyahu also firmly rejected last week.

      I favor it and see it as the only hope I can thnk of stopping the violence on both sides.  

      Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

      by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:21:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Two state is dying (8+ / 0-)

        The "two state solution" is rapidly becoming a dead parrot. Perhaps we should be looking at what a "one state" solution would look like.

        "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

        by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:59:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We already know what (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, HoundDog, unfangus, Iberian, shaharazade

          a 'one state' solution looks like: militarized Bantustans, continued oppression and maneuvering to prevent Israel from losing it's 'Jewishness' due to changing demographics.

          If a 'one state' solution involves granting citizenship (and voting rights) to Palestinians in Gaza, it will be just as unacceptable to Israel as any 'two state' solution that involves not taking virtually 100% of Palestinian land, and having Palestinians vanish somehow.

          The actions of Palestinians in either 'solution' are irrelevant; they have no power to impose their will,  bring no muscle to the negotiating table to ensure a favorable outcome, and have no offset to the US in their corner that would game the UN in their favor.

          190 milliseconds....

          by Kingsmeg on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:48:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In retrospect, to ask, I mean force the (3+ / 0-)

            Palestinians to "negotiate' with a gun to their heads was unwise, and immoral. We owe them an apology by putting them under duress.  Most contracts say if you are under duress the contract is not valid.

            We must immediately recognize Abbas and the PA to be the legitimate government of Palestine so they can ask the UN and other nations for help in assuming immediate control of their territory and start a massive campaign of humanitarian assistance, and rebuilding their nation.

            Also, there can be no legitimacy to an Israeli blockade. If Israel attempts such a thing NATO forces should be brought in to stand them down.

            Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

            by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:12:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We can also start an airlift like we did in Berlin (4+ / 0-)

              building a Gaza airstrip.

              Food and supplies must get in and Israel taken out of the role of prison warden.  Such a role is a clear formula for disaster, we know that now from experience.

              Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

              by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:14:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Open the coast (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WattleBreakfast, HoundDog, Kingsmeg

                Have international inspection of goods

              •  You mean rebuilding (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, dallasdunlap, HoundDog

                Gaza has an airport, near the border with Egypt but it was put out of action by the Israelis.

                "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

                by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:18:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It also has a seaport (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HoundDog, shaharazade, frostbite

                  Which Israel built for them as part of prior agreements.  
                  Wait.

                  Since the 1993 Oslo I Accord, there have been plans to build a much larger seaport in Gaza. Due to the continuing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, these plans have not been materialized as of 2014.

                  In 2005, Israel approved Palestinian plans to rebuild and complete the construction of a port a few miles south of Gaza City, which had begun before the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising in September 2000 and was destroyed by Israeli forces together with Gaza's existing airport near Rafah, following the outbreak of the Second Intifada.[18] Some academics have argued that a port which is under full Palestinian control is an essential step to achieving a lasting peace between Israel and a future Palestinian state.[19]

                  •  We need no other example than this to establish (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    frostbite, Lepanto

                    that it is no longer of an option to leave the IDF and Israel in control of and occupying Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank.

                    The UN or some other international force needs to replace the IDF including all border,  sea and airspace control immediately.

                    Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                    by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:49:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  That's what I heard. This would have to be the (0+ / 0-)

                  first thing to be rebuilt.

                  But, if this is just a matter of repaving the runways and reestablishing aviation towers etc. The U.S. army can not that in a month or so if it is a matter of getting emergency food supplies.

                  The runway just has to be good enough for Cargo planes to land and take off in.

                  Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                  by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:30:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I mean if Israel will not give up its blockade of (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                frostbite, Kingsmeg

                the seaports. Eventually NATO or the UN, or more likely sanctions or diplomacy will end this  (or just good Israeli common sense.)

                I am a pacifist. So any plan I add to this brainstorming session will be based on principles of non-violence and with the strategy of minimizing violence, especially against civilians.

                Sorry, I should have made this persona bias clear from the start.

                One of my main goals and specifications is not just get to a just resolution  acceptable to both sides, but to do to so with a minimum of violence.

                Withing that framework, I do not oppose enormous pressures including war crimes trails or the use of sanctions or boycotts if necessary to provide incentives to stubborn parties.

                But all pressures I would support would have to be non-violent unless everyone gives up and both parties formally declare war on each other. Then I might change my strategies.

                Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

                by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:28:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Official sanctions from all countries in the UN (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pilsner, Kingsmeg

                  to be ended only when Israel complies with all international laws would be the way to go.

                  Of course all countries would not include the USA, but the sanctions would still work. They would simply need a bit more time because of our compromised politicians.

                  War is costly. Peace is priceless!

                  by frostbite on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 10:47:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Abbas should have to earn the position as head (0+ / 0-)

              of any Palestinian unity government. There should be a free and democratic election in which the people would decide.

              War is costly. Peace is priceless!

              by frostbite on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 10:41:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The two state solution was a Palestinian (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade, frostbite, Kingsmeg

            concession since Israel firmly rejected the "secular democratic state" in which Jews and Palestinians lived peacefully side by side. That was the original Palestinian desire.

        •  Yes, I know Lib. I've read many people say that. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pilsner, shaharazade

          The hard choice then will be is that one state going to be democratic or Jewish apartheid, because the experts I've been reading say a single state were all citizens have the right to vote would leave the Jewish people in a minority or so close that it would be awkward to set up any special exclusive privileges for one group over another.

          Which is why so many who still hope for a two state solution are pulling out all the stops to ask that it not be declared dead yet.

          The vision of Prime Minister Netanyaha, the Likud party and other even further right parties is to imitate the disgraceful things we did to the American Indians, except not allow them to become citizens and vote in Israel, but to escape charges of apartheid by allowing them to vote on their 20 or so isolated island reservations, that some are calling "bantulands" as this was the pre-full democratic apartheid South African model.

          So this week when Netanyahu says he will now never recognize an independent PA state, and the Gaza incident shows he can never withdraw troops from the Occupied Territories which are now being renamed by some as the "Disputed Territories" it creates a major urgent dilemma for all those in the U.S. following his lead.

          Is this the plan you now endorse?

          If not, what is your viable path to something else and what is it?

          How long do you realistically see this new plan taking?

          If more than a year, don't you think we have a strategic and moral obligation to immediately recognize Palestine unilateral and allow it into the UN to jolt Netanyahu out of this self-destructive delusional fantasy and back to the negotiating table?

          Because, in the age of the internet even the United States could not get away with a "re-do" of what we did to the Native American people.

          And the world is not going to endorse an apartheid state in the 21st century.

          So what is Netanyahu and his far right coalition thinking?

          Really, we do no have to guess, they have spelled it out this last week. Google it, read it, think about it and ask yourself if you think that it even remotely possible?

          It seems to me to be a suicide pact for a Jewish state. I'd ask all of those people like myself, who have fought for decades for a two state solution, are you resigned to giving up on this?

          Well, maybe we been living in the past, fools paradise, that Netanyahu lied us into believe he was serious about, but he has made is current intentions clear as day.

          So, that issue becomes an aside. Netanyahu has made it is clear that any plan for a Palestinian state that requires his approval and blessing is dead.  Kaput, nado, el zero, it ain't going to happen.

          So, this means in order to be moral, or even just wise, we have to recognize that we have to set up a viable Palestinian state prior to any further negotiations or delays, so President Abbas and the Palestinian Authority can start working with the UN, NGO's and supportive nations to rebuild Gaza the West Bank and Palestine into a viable place people can live in without enforced starvation, cholera, lack of food, water, electricity, homes and inhuman conditions we will be guilty of crimes against humanity if we should allow to continue.

          It is fundamentally non viable, reasonable, moral, ethical or wise to allow any two peoples who hate each other as much as the Palestinians and Israelis to be bound permanently in this sick, pathological, sado-machichistic relationship where they are going to try to kill each other forever.

          Any one supporting this status quo will hereafter have to confront their own moral culpability.

          The UN Security Council needs to

          1)  Order a UN peace keeping force to immediately replace all IDF troops in the Occupied Territories and,
          '
          2) Immediately recognize Palestine as a state withing what has been the official policy of the U.S. and UN for decades, the 1967 borrders.

          3) Allow the Palestinians and Israeli's to make any mutually agreeable land swaps, any time they like, and as many times as they like, but at any moment in time IDF troops will be inside the official borders of Israel, and UN and Palestinian forces will be inside the border of Palestine and both parties will be legally libel for any rockets fired across borders, and the word needs to make clear through immediate action that anyone who fires rockets across the border in either direction will be immediately arrested by UN Peacekeeping forces and tried and convicted in the ICC. Period, no exceptions.

          Both countries have an international legal right to leave in peace and security and the UN needs to get off its ass, and take responsibility for enforcing the law.

          If for some reason the UN Peacekeeping forces show they are not up to this are fail to arrest Hamas fighter who fire even one rocket into Israel, then the Quartet nations need to come in and add to or replace the UN troops.

          Only if the Arab League nations can put together an immediate iron clad argument that they are up to this responsibility should they be allowed to try under the goal on not having non-Islamic soldiers on territory some see as Islamic which I realize is a sensitivity.

          My hope is that the Palestinians will be wise enough to adopt a Constitutional Convention that copies the U.S. or European models for a pluralistic state that respects and recognizes citizens of all religions, ethnic origin, gender, etc. as citizens as every example I've seen of a theologically based state has become severely problematic if not repressive, but that is their choice not mine.

           

          Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

          by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:05:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are other models (6+ / 0-)

            I was thinking of doing a diary exploring the sort of structures that could provide both a nominal Jewish "homeland" and at the same time recognize the legitimate demands of the Palestinians. These could be a Swiss model of cantonization for the whole, some sort of federal system like the German or a "two state/one country" solution in which there might be two separate administrations with defined areas of responsibility and, say, a condominium so that Jerusalem becomes the capital of both (similar to the original UN plan for a "world city").

            One (serious) starting point might be to go back to not allowing US citizens to have dual nationality anywhere. I have a gut feeling it is the US immigrants to Israel who form the backbone of the ultra-nationalist movements and have imported the US obsession with guns too.

            "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:27:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds interesting Lib, you should spell it out. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              shaharazade, AoT

              I've read things about the One national bi/national state idea before that I can't comprehend how that would work.

              And the hatreds between the two peoples are so great I don't see how it works, but my vote doesn't count since I'm an American.

              It just seems to me that until all these details are worked out, they need to be separated with a UN force inbetween.

              We cannot ask the people of Gaza to remain under an Israeli blockade, security control, and control of their taxes and financial flows.

              At the same time war crimes and genocide trails are going on.  That would be inhumane and dangerous.

              Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

              by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:54:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Two brothers (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pilsner

                the two communities are so alike it's akin to two twins fighting. They both have traditions of valuing learning; they both have traditions of welcoming strangers as honored guests, especially on high religious festivals; they both give generously to charities if they can and of course their religions are from the same Abrahamic root. For many hundreds of years Jews could find refuge from the Christian progroms in Muslim lands.

                The UK is a prime example of inter-faith working. Different Christian sects, the Reform and Orthodox traditions and both branches of Islam work together to resolve their differences but recognizing each other's traditions. This can be in simple ways; an example is the recent Ramadan. You may know the fast is broken each evening in a grand Iftar meal. In many communities over the past weeks they have been holding "Big Iftar" events in public spaces and have taken them into churches and synagogues. On the other extreme, you may notice that at the grand royal events like weddings there are representatives of these faiths and others present at the Church of England services.

                Now it would be fanciful to imagine that in the Middle East any time soon. It does I hope demonstrate that different faiths can bring their communities together. They are not an automatic cause for conflict.

                (Maybe I'm a dreamer ....)

                "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

                by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 12:24:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  When I say justify such an idea I mean have UN or (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pilsner

        some other international force replace IDF troops in Gaza and where ever else is possible as a transitional step.

        Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

        by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:21:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hopefully the UN can protect protectorates (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, poco, Iberian, HoundDog

    better than they protect their schools.

    •  The UN relies on UN signatories (7+ / 0-)

      to protect their installations in conflict zones as a condition of UN membership

      •  Doh! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        It was a nice idea though.

        •  Are you being funny here Sandino? Is this the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          "doh" of that cartoon guy on TV?  Homer Simpson?

          So this is a clue for us older people that your comment as a sarcastic or satiric quality to it?  

          Don't underestimate how easily some us can be confused by this type of thing.

          So is the joke here the fact that one of the UN installation it was relying on for to be protected by signatories now lies in rubble as a site of one of the tragic deaths of dozens?

          So therefor this reliance may have been over optimistic?

          Am I keeping up with the group? I'm supposed to be moving.

          Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

          by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:36:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah that's homer's sound effect (0+ / 0-)

            Maybe the word 'Protectorate' summoned up unrealistic visons of 20,000 blue-helmeted Chinese peacekeepers escorting Palestinian kids to the beach and destroying any weapons caches before they could be planted under craters.

            If we are counting on some status granted on paper by the UN to Gaza or the Palestinians, then I fear we will see years of bloodshed, since there are already things like the Geneva conventions and various UN resolutions in place that don't seem to have that much protective power. Call me bitter and cynical...

            I guess attempts at cynical black snark are the thing I try to do in lieu of crying and cursing.

  •  Too little too late nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, HoundDog

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:34:54 AM PDT

  •  Israel will never agree to it (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, poco, YucatanMan, Iberian

    It would have to give up its expansionist dreams of a Greater Land of Israel.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:50:34 AM PDT

    •  Israeli agreement wouldn't be required (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, poco, YucatanMan, HoundDog, shaharazade

      Serbian agreement wasn't required, and arguably they had a stronger claim to Kosovar territory than Israel has for the West Bank.

      Serbia didn't militarily oppose it because they would have been banned from a host of multilateral agreements governing trade and security.  

      Israel could oppose it with force, but would then be subject to sanctions.  And counterforce.

      •  You'd have to get the U.S. to go along (5+ / 0-)

        By separating itself from Israel.  Good luck with that.

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:11:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It appears (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, joe from Lowell, shaharazade

          That Israel is separating itself from the administration.  Netanyahu rebuffed the President's request to cease fire unconditionally.  He and Kerry are criticised and mocked by members of the Israeli government.  

          It appears Israel plans to go around the President and pressure the legislative branch via their advocacy organizations.  It has happened before.

          •  This administration (0+ / 0-)

            is rapidly approaching lame duck status on I/P. HRC is pro-Israel and the republicans are more so.

            •  OK, here is the scenario (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco, WattleBreakfast, shaharazade

              The US continues the status quo, while the rest of the world bands together, or individually, and terminates diplomatic relations with Israel, revokes trade agreements, participation in World forums and sporting events.

              We have seen this movie, the power of the US in coercing allies to not punish our friends is limited.  We stuck with South Africa to to then end, but it didn't change the outcome.

            •  Congress can't tell Obama how to vote at the UN. (4+ / 0-)

              The obstinence of both Congress and Israel might be something they both regret if the Obama administration actually gets fed up with them enough.

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:09:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Which is the assumption my proposal was based on. (0+ / 0-)

              It requires enough other international force to take the initiative that both Obama and Kerry just shrug their shoulder as say what can we do?

              This is it strongest advantage

              If the US exercises aggressive UN and NATO vetoes it becomes more  difficult but not impossible.

              145 or 148 already voted for Palestinian UN membership. So they all unilateral recognize Palestine as individual countries as many have.

              Then Abbas asks for international help and a Coalition of the Willing  Maybe just the 148 or the Arab League responds with the airlift and offer to replace the IDF in Gaza.

              The US and UN may have nothing to do with it.

              But as soon as Obama, Kerry and EU sees how much better this will work out, and how much extra really powerful leverage it give them over Netanyahu they break out into laughter, and secretly endorse it.

              But, for public relations purposes they can issue statements of concern, but they can not stop 148 nations from unilaterally doing what they want to.

              Maybe China sees as chance to take a leadership role befitting its new power in the 21st century.

              Then if these 148 countries announce a BDS movement against all Israeli trade, finance, and travel, until such time as Israel is behind the 67 borders, (or mutually agreeable swaps.)

              The intent is to push every possible unilateral action that do not require Israeli agreement, and can even be implemented over overwhelming Israeli opposition.

              Israel would be unwise to declare war against these Coalition of the Willing - 148 counties.

              If would be good if they nudged up to that point which is my expectation because at that point half the EU countries will join the 148 which will now be the 160 and all will be making an tremendous fuss that inappropriate US S.C. veto threat is a violation of the UN Charter and there is a way the General Assembly can override the US veto.

              But as soon as dozens of nations start challenging the legitimacy of the US even having such veto power, I expect Obama would relent and allow the UN vote.

              He also goes to Netayahu and says, "Gee Whiz Bibi, I really like you personally and all (laughs into sleeve) but I just can't  let the US take this much damage to our national security interests. the US is not going to veto any more UN resolutions.

              Congress will go nuts but Obama says take a flying hike Congress.. He is in his last year and only care about his legacy and doing the best for the world and the 2014 election are over so has nothing to lose,

              Samantha Power, or UN rep is part of the executive branch. So Obama tells Congress, " go ahead, make my day. sue me,"

              And does what he intended in the first place to legitimize his Nobel Peace Prize.

              And John Kerry pretends to slip on the carpet and kicks Bibi in the nuts and then says loudly oh I'm so sorry. BTW those are nice looking nuts, what a shame if something worse was to happen to them."

              Another name for this scenario is the Neuter Netanyahu scenarios. I suppose we should call it the Neutral Netanyahu's lifetime plans of obstructing and preventing the two state solution.

              This is a favor to Netanyahu anyway. He can't do anymore than Obama because of his own right wing.

              This plan gives them a cover story they can go back to their base and says "sheesh, folks this looks bad. If we do not go along with a negotiated two state solution ASAP we will lose even more control and the PA may start asking for 2 acres to 1 in the land SWAP.

              Or Abbas who is 74 dies and there is no longer any Palestinian capable of uniting them so we are stuck with on endless disaster.

              Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

              by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 10:01:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Pilsner makes a good point. We need a plan that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pilsner

        is not contingent on the parties approval. And imposition of international law despite objections by both.

        Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

        by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 09:38:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A Better Example? (7+ / 0-)

    Perhaps a better example might be Bosnia and Herzegovina. It started with the UNPROFOR peacekeeping forces and went onto be administered by a UN High Representative.

    "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:58:24 AM PDT

  •  1948 (0+ / 0-)

    So, how did that work? The UN actually was supposed (and was authorized) to take over all of Jerusalem. No sooner had the UN representative put his flag up than the Arabs started shooting at it. They couldn't even manage Jerusalem, how are they going to manage the West Bank and Gaza?
    I suspect, btw, the reason Israel won't recognize Kosovo has as much to do with not making the Russians unhappy as anything else. Witness their response to events in the Ukraine.

    I don't know how I'm meant to act with all of you lot. Sometimes I don't try, I just na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na

    by Zornorph on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:08:39 AM PDT

    •  That's an alternative history (5+ / 0-)

      but false.  Israeli forces rushed to Jerusalem and declared their intention to occupy it, rejecting 181.

      The Partition Plan was not implemented on the ground, as war broke out between six Arab nations and the newly declared State of Israel.

      At the end of the 1948-49 War, under the Armistice Agreement, an Armistice Demarcation Line was drawn, with Western Jerusalem under Israeli occupation, and the whole West Bank occupied by Transjordan. On 2 August 1948, however, the Government of Israel challenged the demarcation line and decided to declare the Israeli controlled part of the Jerusalem area Israel-occupied territory.[13] By letter of 31 May 1949, Israel declared before the UN Committee on Jerusalem against a united Jerusalem under international regime and pleaded for division of Jerusalem into a Jewish and an Arabic zone.[4] Although Israel in May 1948 had recognized that all of Jerusalem, including the Jewish quarter, is not part of the Israeli territory,[6] Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion declared Jewish Jerusalem (West Jerusalem) an organic, inseparable part of the State of Israel on 5 December 1949. He also declared Israel no longer bound by Resolution 181 and the Jerusalem settlement (that is the corpus separatum) null and void.[10]

      Following the Six-Day War of 1967, Israel also gained military control of East Jerusalem[14] and the West Bank. Israel expanded the municipal boundaries of occupied Jerusalem, which, however, internationally are not recognized. The present municipal boundaries of Jerusalem are not the same as those of the corpus separatum set out in the Partition Plan, and do not include Bethlehem.

      Your point about not alienating Russia in the recognition of Kosovo may have some merit, but it isn't mentioned anywhere else.

      Interestingly Kosovo was one of the few countries in the region that refused the deportation of its Jewish Residents in WW2.  There is a monument in Pristina.

      From JPOST

      So why does Israel irritate its friends by refusing to recognize Kosovo? The formal reason is that to recognize Kosovo might encourage the recognition of the Palestinian state.
      http://www.jpost.com/...
      •  Both sides (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RedsFanForever

        Both sides rushed to Jerusalem to claim it. The Arabs had west Jerusalem under siege in the early part of 1948 and were trying to starve it out. And then on May 18th after Operation Pitchfork found the Israelis at the walls of the Old City, Tranjordan sent in the Arab Legion. The UN did not a damn thing to let food come into West Jerusalem so one can hardly fault the Israelis for taking it upon their own to break the siege. And the UN certainly did nothing to compel the Jordanians to allow the Jews ti visit the Western Wall as they had agreed to.
        Bottom line, it wasn't workable then, it's not workable now.

        I don't know how I'm meant to act with all of you lot. Sometimes I don't try, I just na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na

        by Zornorph on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:42:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you agree (5+ / 0-)

          The Israelis entered the territory allocated for the Palestinian state under UNGA 181 and took it by force for future occupation?

          •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

            What does that have to do with Jerusalem? That wasn't advocated for either side. The first time that the Jews moved against land that was advocated for an Arab state was long the road to Jerusalem in late March/early April as they were trying to break the siege of Jerusalem. Prior to May 18th, you have a civil war in the Mandate and both sides were shooting and attacking each other irregardless of boundaries, but that was the first attempt to actually occupy any of it.
            As for the land that was allocated for the Palestinian Arabs, the Egyptians, Iraqis, Syrians and Jordanians invaded the bulk of it and the Egyptians and Jordanians took more of it than the Israelis did.

            I don't know how I'm meant to act with all of you lot. Sometimes I don't try, I just na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na

            by Zornorph on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:10:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  At least they only shot at the flag (8+ / 0-)

      The Stern Gang killed the UN mediator Folke Bernadotte.

      "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

      by Paleo on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:28:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The UN was not supposed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YucatanMan

      to, nor were they authorized to. The partition plan was a recommendation to the security council that was never taken up , essentially making the plan a dead letter.

    •  the reason... (0+ / 0-)

      Israel doesn't recognize Kosovo is the same reason that Spain doesn't.

      "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

      by JackND on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 11:03:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Israel will never allow it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pilsner, shaharazade

    and the US will back them in the Security Council, so....

    Israel leadership now is fixated in annexation of most West bank land as possible and limbo for ever for the rest and Gaza.

  •  The current Cease fire (0+ / 0-)

    is sticking on Israel's demand that Gaza be demilitarized.  Either Israel does it by force, or an International or third party force does it by agreement.

    •  I think an international group will have to be in (0+ / 0-)

      there for some reasonable period of time, probably at least 10 years if not longer.

      Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

      by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 10:03:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Does a demilitarized (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pilsner

      Gaza mean that the Israelis military would leave and stay out of Gaza and remove their blockade?  Or does it mean that the Palestinian would be totally disarmed and remain occupied by Israel with the military functioning as armed guards that enforce their inhumane occupation without any rights other then what the Israelis decide is not a threat to them. Pretty telling that one of their biggest fears is that the Jewish people would lose their majority in any solution that involves granting the Palestinian Arabs human and civil rights and a place to live that sovereign.  

  •  A trusteeship wouldn't work unless the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    Israeli settlers were withdrawn from the West Bank. Otherwise, they would be a constant terrorist threat.

    •  They could stay (0+ / 0-)

      if the settlers pose a threat, The Palestinians could just adopt existing Israeli laws and practices to control lawlessness that are in  in practice today.  Checkpoints, midnight raids, indefinite detention, segregated roads and all that.  

  •  Well, it's an idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pilsner

    Unfortunately, as with most things UN, the USA will end up paying for it, and if peacekeeping troops are involved, those will primarily be US troops.

    Also, Israel, with good reason, has no reason to believe that any UN peacekeeping force would be effective in controlling attacks from militants. In Lebanon, those blue helmets have been pretty much of a joke.

    The only way this would work, I think, is if it was a very short-term transitional effort, with a defined end-game...which would be the peace agreement thing. I don't see Israel agreeing to an open-ended UN stewardship over the West Bank and Gaza.

    •  Do you think the US has enough credibility left (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RedsFanForever

      for this role?  

      I don't know.  I think UN, some broader international coalition, or the Quartet. The US may be able to be part of it, but probably shouldn't given we've trashed any credibility we may have once had.

      What do you think?  Would the Palestinians go for this?

      Maybe the essence of the plan we are not longer going to give to entrenched parties to dictate terms they proven themselves unable or unwilling to cooperate up to now?  

      Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

      by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 10:07:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, I think they do (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pilsner, HoundDog, Achillios0311

        But I don't see the US doing this other than as a coalition with other countries, such as Britain, or maybe as part of NATO. If I recall correctly, the US always requires command authority if it is committing its troops in a joint endeavor.

        There are a couple kinds of credibility, as I interpret your comment. One is diplomatic credibility, and the other is military credibility. Despite Kerry's inept handling of cease-fire negotiations, the US still has diplomatic credibility with Israel. Whether it has it with the PA, I don't know. As for military credibility, the US is the only country that has any credibility as far as Israel is concerned. I can't see Israel entrusting its security to any other nation, in general, but if it did with anyone, it would be with the US. I think the PA would be happy to have the US or anyone else that isn't Israel standing between them and Israel. So they would be foolish not to go for it.

        I've long thought that Israel should just pull back as much as possible and dump the WB and Gaza on the UN. Let them deal with it. Of course, the gates will be shut tight. Israel would be under no obligation to allow Palestinians to enter Israel, for jobs or anything else. The two problems with my grand plan are (1) Netanyahu and his govt are not yet willing to deal with the settlements and the settlers, and (2) there would have to be a significant security force in the WB and Gaza, to prevent the kind of incessant attacks on Israel that we have seen from Gaza since 2007. You can't leave a security vacuum.

        •  I believe I agree with most of what you say here. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RedsFanForever

          I see the extreme right in Israel as the biggest problem and I can really tell for sure to what extent P.M. Netanyahu is 100% with them or is caught in a similar trap that Obama is here.

          I think Netanyahu may be a "rational decision maker" and by that I mean that he is capable of  including some major features of external reality in his perceptions and mental models and makes what appear to him to be "objective" or at least pseudo-rational" decisions based on an at least somewhat logical analytic system. I'm not really sure. But, he comes close.  Everyone has certain biases. so we can't really fault him for that.

          But large parts of his constituency seem to be ideologues. Many of the settlers would probably be willing to die rather than give us even a square inch of the Occupied Territories.

          So I'm not sure if Netanyahu could have, or will accept a two state solution of any sort Abbas could accept, even if he wanted to, which in his heart he doesn't really want to.

          And he wields enormous influence, for better or worse on U.S. politicians who are 100% behind whatever he wants to do.

          Even to the point that twice half of the Democratic Congresspeople bailed out on President Obama to support Netanyahu's Iran plans and whatever that bruhaha was a few years ago.

          So any kind of continued peace talks within the current framework are dead as far as I can see.

          Kerry did his best and I give him credit for that but he does not have sufficient power or credibility with either side to nudge players off there current situation.

          Are we still together so far, RedsFanForever?

          My further opinion, and I admit this is a bigger leap of speculation, is that if we just sit and continue to drift forward in this status quo situation, underlying demographic conditions will "drift to low performance" to using a systems engineering term.

          They will get worse for both parties.  Although, I need to come back and analyze this family of scenarios more carefully.

          May impression is that what the far right is hoping for, expecting, and planning for, at least what they say in Israeli media is the "American Indian Scenario." Continue infinite delay, establishing facts on the ground so extensive they become irreversible.

          Already there are apparently 800,000 illegal settles who have their homes, jobs, communities and all their assets tied in to the illegal settlements.

          Many on the right are already openly demanding that Israel annex zones A and at least parts of zones B in the West Bank, and Netanyahu has said many times in the last week, he will never recognize a fully independent Palestinian state and says the Gaza events prove he can never withdraw IDF forces from the Jordan Valley.

          But, I do not believe the world will allow that to happen. Not even the US could replay what we did to the American Indians in the age of the Internet and Social Media, without becoming a police state.

          As increasing parts of the world realize his is the only plan and outcome that the Israeli right is planning for and will accept the opposition will grow steadily and exponentially from all directions to oppose it.

          Should we not expect that BDS willl be refocused on all Israeli trace, companies, and financial flows and one by one an increasing number of countries of the 148 that voted to accept Palestine to the UN will join a fully BDS against all trade, financial flow, and travel by Israelis. Most likely the Arab countries, Latin American, and half of the EU. Enough to be really painful.

          Secondly, should we not be concerned that violent extremist jihad proponents will gain a recruiting boost and become more intent achieving some kind of WMD attack and as time passes, and technology advances the cumulative probability of success grows, probably compounding.

          So is there any alternative? I don't know. I "bounced" out a "wild and crazy" scenario, a "shift the mindset" creativity exercise that to my mind would be better than this path for all parties including the Israeli people but it is dicey and needs much work before it could be viable.

          You've no doubt seen variation of it about, and I would except sadly that it has cheesed off some of the very people I am hoping will eventually become its strongest proponents.

          But, the diciest part of it may involve a significant number of American progressive Jewish people coming to the realization that if they do not confront and oppose the plan of the Israeli far right, the traditional vision of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people is greatly jeopardized.

          If this block can be convinced, there is a new scenario that essentially play a game of chicken with Netanyahu, his successor, let just say extreme right pro-settlement groups in an effort to win over the Israeli "middle" and left which probably would have to include a non-insignificant fraction of the current, but most rational of the Likud, hopefully including eventually Netanyahu, who may be the only Israeli, with sufficient credibility to pull this off, just as they said Nixon was the only president who could make peace with China.

          The gamble would be to put them in a situation where they have to chose to acquiesce (with great apparent protest for internal cover)

          The extra difficult aspect of this plan is it starts with an all out assault to bypass and undermine Netanyahu's iron grip of control on the process which is sure to infuriate him and the right to an extent never seen before.

          1. The UN Security Council immediately order the UN or some other international group to replace the IDF in Gaza and any other parts of the West Bank that is militarily possible. Which may start with just Ramalluh if that. Doesn't matter, Gaza is sufficient.

          2. Immediately have as many of the 148 countries ( or `145 ?) who voted for Palestine to be a member of the UN to recognize Palestine as a state within its 1967 borders (yes I hear the blood curdling screams, it is an essential part of the game of chicken.)

          3. Palestine is pressured to join all  remaining international  organizations it can, but has been stalling on because of U.S. threat of funds cut offs, and Israeli threats of annexing the West Bank. (This would be good if they did as it would accelerate the escalation of world condemnation.

          For this plan to work, or at least work better we want to provoke it and its right wing supporters into even more actions perceived to be outrageous by the next traunch of marginal decision makers, making them furious is a helpful first step because they then expose there real intentions as has already happened over the last two weeks. (i.e. Netanyahu's admission that he will never withdraw from the Jordan valley or accept an independent Palestine. He intends to permamently control the electromagnetic spectrum the air space, sea ports and Jordan valley. We've always known this but having him admit it is extremely helpful to this new plan. Because Germany and France told Palestine that the reason they did not vote for their UN statehood was so they would not disrupt the PA's opportunity to negotiate an agreement with Israel.

          Now this is clearly not possible, nor is any other viable scenario for waiting so Germany and France will be under much greater pressure to support the next UN vote for Palestinian membership in the UN.

          A key breakthrough is to escalate the battle for "perceived relative legitimacy" to the point Obama can instruct Samantha Powers not to veto Palestine's application which we have to wait until after the 2014 elections for.

          4. The Coalition of the Willing 148 states balaterally recognizing Palestine, and if the US vetoes UN and NATO involvement maybe the source of the international force Abbas call for help in replacing the IDF for internal security.

          5. The ICC received a petition late Friday night to open war crimes investigation against Israeli leaders i.e. Bibi and Cabinet. The HRC already voted to open investigation of war crimes and crimes against humanity for a) disproportionate force, collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and a separate group has organized a petition suggesting the threshold of evidence has been reached to add genocide.  But the other are sufficient to create a lot of ugly sounding PR by pro-Palestine (and the progressive Pro-Israel forces).

          6. All of the above sets of reinforcing feedback loops and rapid exponential growth of global BDS especially unilateral initiations by the Coalition of the Willing 148 which by now is probably up to 160 plus. Discussions start of applying the BDS to the United States and any other country blocking Palestine's full admission to the UN. One by one Arab and Latin American countries at first freeze trade, finances, and travel by all Israelis

          7. Then both Obama and Netanyahu finally my happily have enough cover to face off their own right wings and saying "Holy Smokes, what the hell are we going to do now? If we don't get back to the negotiating table ASAP how this train is gaining steam and can't be stopped. Just like the acceleration we saw at the end of apartheid.

          8. 20% to 25% of Likud's most rational hard right realizes that this much potential harm and jeopardy to Israel, and to relative to the 100% guaranteed success of a prosperous thriving Jewish state behind the 1967 borders with mutual swaps is too precious to risk for a few stupid desert settlement deep in the West Bank.

          From what I've heard there is a plan pretty close to acceptable to both sides for land swaps that keep 80% of all currently illegal settlements within the mutual swap borders of Israel. "We'd be insane not to take that now."

          Of course, many of the 20% settlers are going to scream, shoot, weep and gnash teeth and riot 10 times as bad as the Gaza withdrawal.

          And within it new modified 67 border it can do anything it want to, even adopt your plan of putting up an extra 10 feet on a wall around the whole country and not let anyone in or out if they want to. Economics will back them off that once they feel safe.

          Iron Dome is already getting 95% of this stupid home brew "missals" Hamas has now. (Maybe not the ones they will have 10 to 20 years from now when they have Stealth tech or whatever if we do not do this plan.)

          Note also we do not actually have to go far down this road. Kerry just pulls Bibi aside and says, WTH? Have you seen this "Immediate Palestinians State - Line of Sight" plan? We can't stop this anymore,  it is breaking out everywhere.

          Bibi, a former MIT student, is smart enough to be able to simulate this scenario in his head, but we can put it into a full mathematical simulation to be helpful to his Cabinet. Give the model let them rerun it with as many changes to assumptions they like until they realize, "holy shit" this plan is vastly better than any other scenario, many of which are complete hopeless disasters.

          This is my modest proposal for peace in the Middle East prior to Obama end of term, so he can leave a legacy and feel good about winning the Nobel prize.

          They do not even have to apologize that the didn't listen the previous times I've mentioned this basically outline going back almost five years. The Carrot and Stick plan. But these sticks are a hell of a loud bigger and hurt more than then simple shit twigs Kerry/''Clinton has taken over there the last three major times in the last.

          Once this get through Abbas and Bibi can go back to the plan Kerry wanted them to sign a few months ago. They could do it in 6 months if they wanted to. They do not want to.

          How long will it take to convince American progressives this is the best possible plan for a safe, secure, Jewish state? This may be the last train leaving the station.

          We will see soon enough.

          So what do you think. Please tell me exactly where I lost you so I can improve the plan to fix your objections. People like yourself are a key target audience. Probably can't be done without you. Or it least it will be a lot harder and more dangerous that it goes out of control.

          Oh, yes, if Bibi comes round soon enough we can all agree to sideline the ICC war crimes hearing into a South African style Truth  and Reconciliation Committee.  The longer we wait, the greater chance that Bibi and the current leaders are trapped in Israel the rest of their lives unable to travel for fear of being arrested as happened with Bush and Cheney.  

          7.

          Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

          by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 01:33:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The thing to understand (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HoundDog

            about Netanyahu is that he is thoroughly secular. He doesn't believe in Greater Israel. He believes in Greater Bibi. The settlements have been driven by two relatively incompatible forces. One force are the religious settlers, who believe in settling every inch of biblical Israel. They care more about the land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael) than the nation of Israel (Am Yisrael). Those are the hard-core nutballs that drive Bibi's coalition.

            The other force are the cheap housing settlers. These are people that wanted inexpensive but nice housing, easy proximity to Jerusalem. I don't think you find these people in the more remote settlements. These are more reasonable people, but the sheer cost of uprooting them and moving them into new homes is unrealistic at this point. Your 800,000 number is grossly inflated, but even if there are 300,000 settlers (probably a little on the low side), that's a lot of new homes to build, moving trucks, neighborhoods uprooted. Hence the land swaps idea, floated originally by Clinton. As far as I can tell, the PA hasn't really voiced objections to the notions of land swaps, so long as they get equivalent quality land and some degree of workable contiguity in the WB. That can be done.

            So far, there hasn't been any political imperative for Bibi to confront those two difficult forces. He's not going to take on 100,000 crazy-ass settlers unless he absolutely has to, and he's not going to address the cost of resettling 350,000 people until he absolutely has to. And nobody has come close to forcing the issue for him yet.

            On the Palestinian side, they don't want to go anywhere near the ICC. If they do, their asses are going to be on trial for war crimes, terrorism, hijackings, kidnappings, murder, etc. There's a bill for Olympic security costs going back to 1972, waiting there for them. They don't have clean hands, and if they are smart, they will realize that.

            BDS isn't going to work, plain and simple. Israel is an economic powerhouse. What kind of computer do you use? Doesn't matter whether its an Apple or a PC, it has Israeli technology inside. If you do BDS, you have to give up Google search, Gmail, your cellphone, instant messaging. You better be in good health, because there are a lot of Israeli-developed medications and treatments. For BDS to work, the boycotters have to be willing to live their lives like its 1976, and I can assure you, that won't happen. Hell, the major Palestinian proponent of BDS couldn't even BDS his own education. He was a student at Tel Aviv University. Oops.

            I don't know whether you read TimesofIsrael.com, or various Israeli papers like Ynet.com, but you should. In particular, the opinion pieces. There is a pretty strong consensus that the present action in Gaza is fully justified, but there have also been several pieces looking beyond and into the future. Asking questions like what happens after the tunnels are largely destroyed? There is awareness on the Israeli side that this is the third time they've had to do this kind of thing in Gaza (hence the unfortunate "grass-cutting" metaphor, which intelligent people know referred to the weapons, not people), and that the solution isn't going to be a fourth episode. Or a fifth. It has to be a political solution. Military leaders are talking about it, too. I don't know if anyone on the palestinian side is talking about political/diplomatic solutions. Maybe when this is over and they are done burying everyone, the people will turn to Hamas and ask them just what the hell they thought would happen.

            I think when both sides (or rather all three sides) come to the realization that the solution is political, and not military, there can be real change.

            •  Thanks for explaining this too me Reds. What you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RedsFanForever

              say makes a lot of sense and seems very well informed.

              I never actually expected to read my vastly overlong comment. I pretty much to this to try to organize my thoughts and try to learn how to communicate better to people with different perspectives.

              Thank you, I appreciate a great deal the time you've taken tot explain this to me and your have raised several new insights I had not heard of yet.

              Your comment makes me a little sad but, if I understand you correctly, you are saying things may get better eventually but not after a long, long time.

              I've read articles in both the papers you mention but mostly have read haaretz and The Jerusalem Post. For the last few years i spend the last several hours of each day after I am too tire write search Google for Israel, Palestine, Gaza, Bibe etc.

              I"ve heard many respond to BDS with the facts you present which I accept.

              The point where we seem to see things differently is that you seem to assume that for the BDS to have some positive contributiton to bringing Netanyahu to the negotiating table they have to achieve some substantial degree for real compliance.

              I don't expect 99% of the population to endure even one minute of inconvenience for the purpose of BDS. They are going to use all of the technologies, meds, cosmetics, that Israel's excellent scientists contribute.

              That not the expectation.

              When I was in college I went to a special fund raiser to support the California migrant workers back when they were trying to organize. Every car in the parking lot had a boycott lettuce, and pictures of that famous activist.

              The fund raiser was well attended and nobody commented on the fact the dinner started with the largest Ceaser saland I had ever seen in my life up to that point.

              Its discussion about BDS that acts as a pressure, an irritant, and symbolic gesture. Ive read 10 times as many articles about BDS in Israels major newspapers than anywhere else.

              All the best descriptions of what it is, how it could be damaging, what is the actual estimate of the cost verus the benefits have been written by anti-BDS Israelis who have vastlty better writers than the real BDS movement if there really is one. I haven't been able to find any competent, and compelling writer in favor of it, or leading its cause.

              It's funny actually, the primary driver of the movement as far as I can tell have been Israeli writers complaining about how terrible this is, and how anti-Semitic its supporters are.

              I have yet to find a real supporter writing about it.

              So I agree with you that peace will not come until the two parties come together.

              I just wish we could find some more levers because without them I doubt I will live long enough to see the end of this.  And that will live me sad and unfinished.

              In my lifetimes Ive seen the antiwar movement fix Vietnam, the civil rights era get the right to vote, the GLBT have finally been largely accepted.  Still a ways to go but the trend is solid and it is only a matter of time.

              Same with decriminalization of marijuana and prison reform will come in the next 5 to 10 years I hope.

              Even the conversion to renewable energy, solar and wind is arriving.  

              I/P peace, domestic surveillance,and the spread of these damn neocons. are the major hold outs on my bucket list.

              Thanks again for taking the time to explain this to me. I've been see your comments recently, and could tell you were intelligent, well informed, but also of a slightly different opinion than mind, and you have won me over to several important new ideas for me.

              Let me know if I can ever return the favor.

              Cheers reds.

              Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

              by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 05:32:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, and thanks too for reading my long comment and (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RedsFanForever

              spending so much time on one of your own.

              I'm struggling to become more succinct, but it is so difficult. So of my thoughts seem to be on a different wavelength than others, so it take me longer than it should to boil things down to concise expression.

              Your patience is rare and appreciated.

              Humor Alert! No statement from this UID is intended to be true, including this one. Intended for recreational purposes only. Unauthorized interpretations may lead to unexpected results. This waiver void where prohibited. Artistic License - 420420

              by HoundDog on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 05:34:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What I appreciate (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                Is being able to discuss these issues without the ridiculous, inflamed rhetoric that has been so pervasive here. I suspect our views are pretty close. Frankly, I think most Israelis want the same things as most Palestinians. They all want to live their lives, raise kids and see them grow up healthy and happy, celebrate holidays, make love. They don't want to kill each other. They don't want to see anyone bury their children. The real tragedy is this cycle of violence which is so easily avoidable. I bear no I'll will towards the Palestinians, but I hate Hamas and Islamic jihad, for putting their own people in harms way, and for forcing Israel into a situation where this violence had to happen. Everyone knows what the practical solution is, but nobody has the balls to just do it, finally.

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