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Well, Hamas was talking about not renewing the cease fire which was due to end at 8AM (1AM EST). But it turns out they couldn't wait that long. They fired two rockets as Israel a short time ago. They really must love death, because they have to know what the response will be if they keep up this crap. (Turns out the first to shots were mortars and nobody claimed them - probably Islamic Jihad did it, though).

Edit: Switched out a link to a bad website for a better one on one of the stories.

They are also executing collaborators. This isn't the first time they have done that in this conflict, either. Even worse, they had the nerve to add those deaths to the casualty count and blame Israel for them.
I honestly thought this cease fire would hold. I guess I just forgot how evil Hamas was and how little they value the life of their people.

EDIT: So, I just woke up and see that the fighting has started again. Over 30 rockets have been fired and there are a couple of injuries from them in Israel. There's so question about who is firing - a bunch got shot off right as the cease fire expired that Islamic Jihad took credit for. Hamas has gone on the record as saying they did not extend the cease fire, but have not said they are firing. I have a hard time thinking that that many rockets going off can happen without them being okay with it. It's an old trick for them to 'let' IJ do the shooting so they can pretend they are not doing it. I don't buy it in this case.
EDIT AGAIN: Since it's not clear if Hamas has been firing any of the rockets, I have removed their name from the Title of the diary.

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Comment Preferences

    •  But you forget that this diary is a lie (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shopkeeper

      There is no evidence presented that Hamas fired these rockets. Once again supports of Israel lie and lie. In fact  the article heavily implies that it was not Hamas:

      In Israel, senior security sources warned on Thursday evening that the Jewish state  will respond with force if Hamas renews attacks.
      Israel didn't respond because it knows that it wasn't Hamas. You and the diarist continue to falsely equate all rocket attacks with Hamas even though you know that isn't true. That's called lying.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:05:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  bullshit (17+ / 0-)

    I don't buy Israel's propaganda anymore.  Peddle it elsewhere.

    My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

    by JLFinch on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:28:51 PM PDT

    •  Didn't Israel violate the last one (11+ / 0-)

      By leveling an entire neighborhood looking for a soldier Bibi knew wasn't missing? Or something along those lines. I have maintained, and will continue to do so, that Hamas and the IDF are bastards with no moral code at all. The victims in this are the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank, and to a much lesser degree the citizens of Israel. I say lesser degree not because their suffering doesn't matter, but because they're almost 100% safe as compared to the West Bank, where children are being tortured by the IDF, and Gaza, where Israel is bombing everything in sight.

    •  This diary includes a link to WND (13+ / 0-)

      to make its claim. I'm all down with calling Hamas terrorists, but if you want to prove a point about them linking to a site like WND isn't how to go about doing it. I know nothing about the other sites linked in here but I'm guessing they're similar piles of steaming offal.

      GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

      by ontheleftcoast on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:38:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree about WND, but there are other sources (18+ / 0-)

        I just went looking on Google News and see that there are others reporting that Hamas has broken the cease fire by shooting missiles into Israel:

        Voice of America

        CNN

        Other outlets are reporting the same story which originated from the IDF.  

        It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

        by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:54:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have no doubt there was rocket fire (15+ / 0-)

          But even CNN is saying it isn't sure who fired the rockets. And that Hamas is denying responsibility. That's a far, far cry from the gist of this diary.

          GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

          by ontheleftcoast on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:58:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I imagine that there are a few angry, bitter, (12+ / 0-)

            hopeless young men in Gaza right now.
            Hamas has denied that it fired the rockets, but you know, it helps the narrative to paint Hamas as an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful entity...with their puny, homemade rockets. Or worse yet, use Hamas to paint all Palestinians as evil, savages. After all, you dehumanize them it makes it easier to bomb them, starve them, pen them up like farm animals in a cage, destroy their infrastructure and leave them to rot in the sewer-like conditions that is Gaza today.

            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

            by JoanMar on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 10:48:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How convenient for Hamas (11+ / 0-)

              All they have to say is, "it wasn't us but instead a lone wolf" and think that normal people will believe them. The only people wha believe Hamas are other terrorists or terrorist sympathizers

            •  And it helps your narrative (11+ / 0-)

              to paint Hamas as something other than the Jew-hating hideous terrorists that they are.

              Disgusting.

              •  It is mostly disappointing to me (10+ / 0-)

                to see this.  Such blind spots are hard to reckon when you know the posters to be compassionate and fair on other issues.
                This rushing to defend Hamas is unseemly at best.  

                It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                by Radiowalla on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:49:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  They can be sympathetic to the Palestinians (10+ / 0-)

                  caught in the crossfire, without having any sympathy or making any excuses for Hamas and PIJ. Nevertheless, the frequency with which they jump to the defense of Hamas, trying to explain away any and all Hamas actions, makes me wonder.

                •  Radiowalla, I am a bit saddened that you are (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poco, capelza, CenPhx, WattleBreakfast

                  disappointed by my views on the I/P issue.
                  I won't think less of you because you are prepared to think less of me.
                  I will not apologize to anyone for my defense of the Palestinians. Nor will I apologize for not lumping Hamas with Boko Haram and Al Qaeda. I will never accept that the ANC, Maroons,  or Jews fighting against the Romans in the first century were terrorists.
                  I recently went back and looked up some of the literature about the founding of Israel, and it was remarkable the tactics that were used then to secure the homeland.

                  Tell me, Radiowalla, what if the situation was reversed? What if it were the Palestinians who had all the power and the defense systems. What if it were Israelis who were told to live in a certain area and had no freedom to move as they wanted? What if the Palestinians controlled the Israeli airspace and territorial waters, and had drones flying over their heads daily to monitor activities and collect intelligence? What if it were Israeli children who felt hopeless, and Israeli parents who felt helpless with no ability to protect their families?
                  Do you for one nanosecond think that you'd not have an underground resistance movement? Do you really, really think that young - and old - Israelis would just sit back and accept that reality?
                  Then why do ask it of the Palestinian?

                  And no, I am not a supporter of Hamas. I am a supporter of the Palestinians. I understand their pain. I see the wretched conditions under which they are forced by a superior power to live. And if the situation were reversed, I'd be a supporter of Israel. I am disappointed that you do not see the suffering, Radiowalla, and that you'd focus on symptoms rather than on root causes.

                  Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                  by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 10:00:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I would like to take you out for a drink to (6+ / 0-)

                    talk this over.  I think we would find much to agree upon.

                    The founding of the state of Israel left much to be desired.  But Israel does exist and it is the sole homeland for Jews on the entire planet.  If you look at the map of the world you will find boundaries that have been drawn and redrawn in arbitrary ways by colonists and victors of various wars.  This is a process that is continuing before our very eyes (witness what his going on in Ukraine, for example).  The Palestinians were offered a homeland which they refused and Israeli partisans did chase many of them out of their lands.  By the same token, nearly 900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries.  They lost their homes, their property and their livelihoods and they have not been allowed to return.  There is plenty of heartache to go around if you are willing to look at it.

                    I do feel much heartache for the Palestinian people.  They have been shafted time and again by the ill-will of the present Israeli gov't but primarily by their own extremist leadership who has led them down the path to a persistent state of war.  

                    My compassion is for all of them.  The difference between us seems to be that I feel that Israel has a right to exist and to exist in peace, without being attacked by missiles shot over the border on a nightly basis by its neighbors.  Although Israel has not always lived up to its principles, it is by far the most solid example of democracy and women's rights and gay rights in the Middle East.  For me, that counts for something.  

                    I do not equate the Palestinian people with Hamas.  It is possible to loathe Hamas and have compassion for the plight of the Palestinians.   I urge you to read the charter of Hamas and decide if you think they are interested in peace.    

                    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                    by Radiowalla on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 04:58:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You didn't ask me, but I'll answer. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL, Jersey Jon, leftynyc
                    what if the situation was reversed? What if it were the Palestinians who had all the power and the defense systems.
                    Hamas is not "all the Palestinians," as I believe you've already agreed?

                    Read the Hamas charter.  They clearly tell you what they'd do.  Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians.  Israel is fighting Hamas.

                    What if it were Israelis who were told to live in a certain area and had no freedom to move as they wanted?
                    Actually, Jewish people were told just that for two thousand years, .

                    Gaza has another neighbor named Egypt, btw.  You may have heard of it?

                    Jordan borders the other Palestinian-controlled territory.

                    I would hope you realize that Israel doesn't control Jordan and Egypt, right?

                    If we've learned anything over the years, it's that if somebody (in this case, Hamas) tells us that they want to kill us, we'd better listen.

                    What if the Palestinians controlled the Israeli airspace and territorial waters, and had drones flying over their heads daily to monitor activities and collect intelligence?
                    1) it would be unnecessary, because there are no Jewish terror groups aiming to wipe out Palestinians.

                    And 2), Hamas would continue to try to kill Jews, nonetheless.

                    What if it were Israeli children who felt hopeless, and Israeli parents who felt helpless with no ability to protect their families?
                    Spend a week in Sderot and Ashkelon, and the other cities in Southern Israel, who have been under constant siege from Gazan rocket and mortar fire for over a decade, and who have now raised an entire generation of children with PTSD.

                    Then tell us who sees what, and who suffers where.

                    •  But it is Palestinians who are dying. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Portlaw, poco
                      Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians.  Israel is fighting Hamas.
                      If I agree with you on this:
                      Spend a week in Sderot and Ashkelon, and the other cities in Southern Israel, who have been under constant siege from Gazan rocket and mortar fire for over a decade, and who have now raised an entire generation of children with PTSD.
                      Will you agree with me, that at the very least, Palestinian are also suffering? How do you think the young population of Gaza is dealing with the death and destruction they have seen over the past weeks?
                      This from a 2003 study of Palestinian children:
                      Our study also found that 33% of the children were having acute levels of Posttraumatic stress disorder, 49% from moderate levels and 16% low levels. In “hot” (close to Israeli settlements) areas, 55% of the children suffered from acute levels of posttraumatic stress disorder, 35% from moderate levels, and 9% low levels
                      http://www.healingdivides.org/...

                      Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                      by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:44:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, they're suffering. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        leftynyc, RedsFanForever

                        This will stop if their 'leaders' can just stop shooting missiles at Israeli civilians for more than a few days.

                        The people of Gaza need to be freed from Hamas.

                        92% of Palestinians want a long-term ceasefire.

                        There are reports that Hamas leaders are being beaten by regular Gazans for using them as human shields.

                        It is the Gazans who are dying because their leaders continue to insist on fighting to the last one, while they hide in safety in luxury Qatari hotels.

                        Believe it or not, JoanMar, Israelis don't want to keep fighting this same battle over and over again, either.

                        But Israel can't stop until Hamas does.

                      •  Also, why did you ignore this? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        leftynyc
                        Gaza has another neighbor named Egypt, btw.  You may have heard of it?

                        Jordan borders the other Palestinian-controlled territory.

                        I would hope you realize that Israel doesn't control Jordan and Egypt, right?

                        Do you dispute either of these facts?
                        •  I ignored that because I didn't view it as (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          poco

                          a serious question. I am about having an honest debate; not play cute, dishonest, gotcha games.

                          I'll take the sliver of hope you offered in the first response and run with it. You agreed that Palestinians are suffering. That is good.
                          One question (if you answer I'll probably respond tomorrow, or after I get a quick nap), can you agree that the blockade may have contributed to the radicalization of some Palestinian youths? Can you agree that the blockade may have contributed to the suffering of Palestinians?
                          Would you want your family living in Gaza under the strictures imposed by Israel?
                          Honest answers now.

                          Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                          by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:36:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Why would you not view it as a serious question? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            leftynyc

                            Do you really view geography as a "cute, dishonest, gotcha game"?

                            Are you disputing that Jordan and Egypt border the Palestinian territories?

                            Do you need a map?

                            Or are you claiming that Israel controls those countries?

                            In which case, I probably can't help you with much.

                            You refuse to answer my two very simple questions, and then ask me three, while claiming to only ask one, and then further insinuate that I am inclined to lie.

                            Nevertheless, I will indulge you.

                            What exactly do you claim Israel is 'blocking' from coming into Gaza?

                            Can you provide evidence that Israel is denying necessities from entering Gaza, even in a time of war?  And further, can you tell us why, if so, Egypt does not allow same to pass through their border with Gaza?

                            The blockade is to prevent shipments of missiles and concrete used to build terror tunnels.  None of that benefits the growth of Palestinian youths in any way.

                            If such a thing radicalizes them, then there's a problem with what they're taught by UNRWA and Hamas and other enablers of terror.

                            Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?

                            Honest answers now, JoanMar.

                          •  I did not accuse you of lying. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco

                            You are correct; I did promise to ask one question and asked three instead. Forgive me.

                            Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?
                            No. I would be scared. I would fear for the lives of my loved ones and my own. I would be a mess.

                            You didn't answer my question. Would you want your family to live in Gaza. Or the West Bank, for that matter.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:13:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, you did. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            leftynyc

                            Or else you wouldn't have said this -

                            Honest answers now.
                            When have I ever not been honest here?  If nothing else, I would venture to guess that a number of people here now dislike me because I am too honest in saying what I believe.

                            That aside, I see you're once again refusing to answer questions.

                            You ask -

                            Would you want your family to live in Gaza.
                            No, we'd have all long since been dragged to death behind motorcycles by Hamas.

                            How is that the fault of Israel, or me?

                            Or the West Bank, for that matter.
                            I am not an Israeli.  I am a Philadelphian.

                            But I'll take a stab at this one, too.

                            I wouldn't live there out of any particular fear for my safety,  yet nor do I subscribe to the notion that Jews should not be allowed to live in Judea and Samaria, as Mahmoud Abbas and others argue.

                            I leave the notion that a future Palestinian state must be completely free of Jews for others to defend.

                            Why would you ask me this question?

                            Now that I've answered all of your questions, and you've answered none of mine, would it be too hopeful on my part to consider that you might do us the favor of answering a couple of mine?

                            1) How would you realistically propose that the rockets on Israel be stopped?

                            2) How can firing rockets at Israeli civilians, while hiding behind your own civilians, ever be considered "self-defense?"

                          •  Btw, I answer all of your questions. (0+ / 0-)

                            You answer none of mine.

                            In fact, you don't even bother responding to my answers to your 'questions,' which easily swat all of them away.

                            Yet of course, you have another round of nonsense waiting for me every time nonetheless.

                            Here's another couple two or three questions for you -

                            1) Will you ever consider that maybe you've taken the wrong side of this conflict?

                            2) What, exactly, parts of Hamas' platform qualifies as progressive positions?  Do you even know what Hamas stands for?

                          •  I asked you a question and you deflected. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco

                            You asked me a version of the same question and I gave a sincere (I thought) answer.
                            You:

                            Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?
                            Me:
                            No. I would be scared. I would fear for the lives of my loved ones and my own. I would be a mess.
                            I want to focus your attention on specific issues and you keep dragging red herrings to litter the trail and make it more complex than it needs be.
                            And that's the problem, isn't it? If we can't even agree on parameters of our debate/conversation, how on earth can those in the middle of this unfolding tragedy see their way clear to make any concessions?
                            Ok, so let's try again. I want you admit that the Palestinians are suffering and angry and that there is a basis for their anger. I want you to admit that there is a lot  the Israeli government can be doing, and should be doing to alleviate the suffering.
                            You can start by admitting that under present conditions, you would not want your family living in Gaza. Not because you are a Jew and Hamas will come and get you; but because you are a human who loves his family and want to see them living in a safe environment and with hope for the future.
                            Admit that and maybe we can start to see a way forward that will bring hope to the Palestinians and peace for the Israelis.

                            To answer another of your questions: No.

                            Will you ever consider that maybe you've taken the wrong side of this conflict?
                            No. As long as the status quo remains as is, I am for the weak and the powerless. That doesn't mean that I do not fear for that mother in Sderot who worries about the safety of her children. She too is a victim.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 10:25:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Proteus7
                            You can start by admitting that under present conditions, you would not want your family living in Gaza.
                            You're right, I wouldn't.  The people of Gaza are stuck with a terror organization which is willing to fight to the last Gazan, while their leaders order room service in luxury hotels in Qatar.

                            Life is hell for the average Gazan right now.  I see that as the fault of Hamas.

                            This is clearly where we differ.  You seem to blame Israel for responding to attacks that no country on earth would be expected to put up with.  All Hamas and its cohorts need do is stop firing rockets at Israel.

                            As long as the status quo remains as is, I am for the weak and the powerless.
                            Israel isn't fighting "the weak and the powerless."  Israel is fighting the organization which has launched thousands of missiles at its cities, and which killed hundreds of Israelis in a wave of regular suicide bombing attacks in the early part of the last decade.

                            Hamas may not be very good at it anymore, but they still continue to try to kill Jews.  Which is unacceptable.  All they have to do is stop trying to kill people, and they'll be left alone.  What of this is so hard to understand?

                          •  And we are right back where we started. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco, CenPhx
                            Israel isn't fighting "the weak and the powerless."
                            But it is the weak and powerless who are dying and it is Israeli bombs that are killing them.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 12:50:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because Hamas is 'bravely'... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rduran, Proteus7

                            ...willing to fight to the last Gazan, who they hide behind and under.

                            It is unacceptable for Israeli cities to live under perpetual siege, and no other country in the world would be expected to put up with this.

                            We're "right back where we started," because Hamas continues to do the same thing over and over again.

                          •  It is not only Hamas that seems ready to fight (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Portlaw, poco, CenPhx

                            to the last Gazan.
                            Israel is equally determined, one could argue.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 02:48:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nonsense. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayinPortland, Proteus7

                            For one, Israelis are as fundamentally decent folk as you'll find anywhere in the world.

                            Two, this is a nation born out of genocide.  There is absolutely no way any Israeli government would countenance the wanton destruction of another people for any reason short of the gravest ones.

                            Three, Israel has been considerably more careful in sparing civilians on the battlefield than Americans have.

                            Four, Israel doesn't need to fight to the very last Gazan to defeat Hamas.  She only needs to defang Hamas long enough for the Gazans to finish the job themselves.

                          •  Sure, one can argue that. (0+ / 0-)

                            They'd be wrong, but one can 'argue' anything, I suppose.

                          •  I'd point out that the situation isn't so static (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayinPortland

                            Hamas and friends fired off an order of magnitude more missiles this time than they did during Cast Lead.  It's believed the terrorists started with 11,000 missiles of all type, and up to a hundred of the longer range models they hoped to use to strike major Israeli population centers.  Israel says she's destroyed or Hamas has expended upwards half of that stock in a single month, and we still can't gauge the impact attacks on launchers, missilemen, producers and smugglers have had on the terrorists' capacity to reconstitute.

                            There's a chance to win this for real, or at the very least knock the Gazan militants out of the game for a good long while.

                  •  If the situation were reversed (4+ / 0-)

                    All the Jews would be dead. Read Hamas' Charter.

                    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

                    by dhonig on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:42:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  They don't just sit around hating Jews (0+ / 0-)

                So yes, they are something other than just that. I realize you need a comically evil group to excuse Israel's actions, or perhaps only Israel needs that, but Hamas is not a comically evil group, it's a mixed bag. It does do some good, despite its antisemitism.

                Given that most interaction that people in Gaza have with Jews is in the form of the IDF or missiles and bombs I can hadly be surprised there's a lot of antisemitism. If France was bombing my city and killing my children I'd probably hate French people.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:27:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Their puny homemade rockets (7+ / 0-)

              killed five Palestinian militants today in a mishandling accident. Those puny homemade rockets destroyed the shit out of a Palestinian family's house in the West Bank, a few days ago.

            •  Best Comment! (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              JoanMar
              Hidden by:
              RedsFanForever
            •  RedFansForever just HR'ed me! Please help! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JoanMar
          •  Even the JPost article diarist links to (4+ / 0-)

            does not say Hamas fired the rockets.

            JPost is careful to only report what they know, but our dkos Diarist apparently has no such inhibitions.

          •  Islamic Jihad admitted (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ontheleftcoast, AoT, poco, CenPhx

            firing the rockets (per NPR this am). Don't blame everything on Hamas like everything was blamed on Al Q'aida. Hamas has very little control over them.

            El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated

            by mint julep on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 05:53:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nevertheless, Hamas (5+ / 0-)

              refused to extend the cease-fire. And Hamas is the governing authority (such as it is) in Gaza. So ultimately, it is responsible.

              •  So did Israel (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, WattleBreakfast, mint julep

                Israel continues it acts of war and claims they don't represent war. If they were interested in a ceasefire they'd end the blockade.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:28:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, you are wrong (7+ / 0-)

                  Israel did not refuse to extend the cease-fire. Israel was fine with extending it. And once the cease-fire ended at 8 am, and the barrage of war crimes rockets began firing from Gaza, Israel held off striking back for more than 2 hours.

                  If you (or Hamas) thinks that after seeing thousands of rockets and more than 30 cement-hardened tunnels, Israel is going to just "end the blockade," without getting some kind of international oversight of imports and demilitarization of Hamas, you are deluding yourself. Israel is, in fact, open to easing if not ending the blockade, but it has to be done in a way that prevents import of weapons and diversion of construction materials to tunnel-building. There is absolutely no reason to reward Hamas for starting this conflict, prolonging it for weeks, and getting its ass kicked. That's not how the world works.

                  •  If you or anyone else think that Hamas not firing (5+ / 0-)

                    rockets is going to end the blockade then you're an idiot. Hamas kept to the previous ceasefire for nearly two years until Israel broke it and started the mass slaughter of Palestinians.

                    Neither Hamas nor Israel broke the ceasefire.

                    It's unfortunate that the ceasefire was not extended but the talks broke down because Israel continues to commit acts of war against the Palestinians. That is a simple fact of reality. A truce that included acts of war is no truce at all.

                    What that truce means is that all Palestinians should stop all acts of aggression while Israel continues to commit acts of war against Palestinians. That's not a truce. What you're talking about is Israel having free reign to commit acts of war. That's not peace, it's war where only one side is fighting.

                    What you, and Israel, are calling for is surrender, not a truce.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:53:30 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Merely stopping rocket fire (6+ / 0-)

                      will not end the blockade. It will not, because the past three weeks have shown exactly what Hamas and PIJ want to bring in freely -- weapons, rockets, and cement to build attack tunnels. Not cement to build homes and factories and resort hotels along the Mediterranean, that could make Gaza a tourist destination for Europeans. They want that cement to build attack tunnels.

                      So the only way the blockade will end is if there is another mechanism to prevent weapons from coming in to Gaza, and another mechanism to ensure that construction materials are used for rebuilding homes and factories, and for economic development. The negotiators were talking about that, and there were promising proposals involving England, France and Germany, as well as the PA. But hamas, enabled by people like you, thinks that they should get everything they want up front, without conditions, even though they have demonstrated to the entire world that they have consistently acted in bad faith.

                      The entire world saw those tunnels, saw how they were constructed, and saw thousands of rockets fired at Israel. The jig is up, and no reputable government is going to support Hamas in its unreasonable demands. They don't even have the support of Arab nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, anymore. All they have to rely upon are enablers like yourself.

                      •  It sounds a lot like you're saying that (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza, mint julep

                        surrender is the only solution. Because having one side disarm is a surrender, not a negotiated truce.

                        Telling Hamas "Hey, don't worry, you're not really surrendering to Israel, you're surrendering to the UN." isn't really something that's going to go over well.

                        They don't even have the support of Arab nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, anymore.Pointing to the actions of American client states isn't exactly a strong argument. Egypt is a brutal dictatorship where the military overthrew the elected government and is once more in a state of emergency. Saudi Arabia is one of the most regressive regimes in the world in terms of human rights. Worse even than Hamas, at least in practical terms. And both are close allies of the US. Saying that US allies in the region don't support Hamas is meaningless.

                        And yes, the world saw those tunnels. The world also saw the fact that two civilians were killed on the Israeli side, where as more Palestinian civilians were killed in the last couple of months that Israeli civilians have been killed in the last two decades, more really.

                        Where's  the call for Israel, the group doing the actual killing, to disarm?

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:30:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  There was a perfectly fine ceasefire in place (6+ / 0-)

                  And there were promising efforts to have the West step in to both end the blockade. Hard to see Jerusalem singing on in the immediate term, now that rocket fire has resumed in Gaza. It takes a special level of gall to complain about party X when party Y initiates hostilities.

                  Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                  by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:44:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  A ceasefire that expired. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poco, capelza, mint julep

                    And as much as I'd like to seethe ceasefire extended it was clear by the point the rockets had been launched that there was no extension. The Israeli negotiators had already returned.

                    And unilateral disarmament of Gaza is not anything promising at all and anyone remotely familiar with the situation would know that. Presenting that as any sort of workable solution is laughable.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:58:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, it was over (6+ / 0-)

                      Well, then. Everything is understandable. When the buzzer goes off, the game is over and there's nothing to be done about it.

                      I have a hard time seeing Israel's more vociferous critics here as accommodating had the ceasefire effectively ended with IDF armaments, rather than those of PIJ/Hamas.

                      Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                      by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:05:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It was fine when Israel did it the first few (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        WattleBreakfast

                        ceasefires, at least I didn't see any complaint from you or other constant defenders of Israel. Why is it suddenly the worst thing in the world now?

                        I have a hard time seeing Israel's more vociferous critics here as accommodating had the ceasefire effectively ended with IDF armaments, rather than those of PIJ/Hamas.
                        I consider that unlikely. Israel was done with it's operation and thus it agreed to a ceasefire because it didn't want to look worse in the eyes of the world. So Israel has every reason to maintain the ceasefire. Unlike the previous ceasefires.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:08:19 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Hamas is the government in Gaza (4+ / 0-)

              So it depends on how they respond to the firing of the rockets. If they take responsibility for attacks originating on their soil and arrest and prosecute the perpetrators and apologize to Israel for the actions of those citizens, then it shouldn't be considered a violation of the ceasefire. If they officially praise the perpetrators (as they did with with the kidnappers) then it should be considered a violation of the ceasefire. And if they simply claim no responsibility then they're demonstrating an inability to govern their citizens and lose any clout at the negotiating table.

              If the rockets really were fired by a militant group independent of Hamas, this is a great opportunity for them to prove that they want peace with Israel and will take action internally to achieve that peace by finding and prosecuting the people responsible. I'd love to see that happen.

              A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

              by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:08:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  In never cite WND (7+ / 0-)

          except as an example of a 9/11 Truther site. But as you point out, there are plenty of other sources here.

        •  The claims that there was rocket fire trace back (0+ / 0-)

          to the Israelis, who have not exactly been paragons of honesty. So, maybe rockets were fired. Or maybe the Israelis are looking for an excuse for more slaughter in Gaza. We just don't know.
             The other thing we don't know: If rockets were fired, were they fired by Hamas or some other player?

      •  Hamas may have committed terrorist acts at some (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        times. But when a military force attacks people in their homes, resisting them isn't terrorism. It's self defense.
           As to Israeli troops getting killed during a truce: Whose truce?What were the troops doing that got them killed? Whose word are you taking that this happened during a truce?

        •  But when Hamas shoots rockets at Israel, and (5+ / 0-)

          Israel strikes back, do you agree that's also self-defense?

          Or do you think that Hamas is the only one acting in self-defense?

          •  That's not what happened (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WattleBreakfast

            Israel attacked Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza and Hamas responded with rocket fire, then Israel claimed the war was about rocket fire, and then it claimed it was about tunnels. Before all of that it was about a kidnapping. Israel can't even get it's story straight, and neither can you folks offering excuses for the mass killing of children.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:13:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I suggest you brush up on your history. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Zornorph, Kane in CA

              Southern Israel has been under constant siege by rocket and mortar fire from Gaza for over a decade.  It took close to a thousand attacks (each a double war crime in the form of firing at civilians while hiding behind their own) from Gaza over just a few weeks in July before the IDF launched Operation Protective Edge.

              The terror tunnels were discovered as a result of responding to the rocket fire.  Which I suppose we should all 'thank' Hamas for being so blinded by genocidal violence in the first place that they couldn't hold back on firing hundreds of rockets a week at Israel before they even had the chance to carry out whatever their plans were for those tunnels.

              I'm pretty sure they weren't going to pop up out of holes in the ground to hand candy to Israeli children and then go back home.

        •  Resisting invading forces is one thing. (3+ / 0-)

          Shoot at said forces' home country's civilian is NOT self-defense. It's either "collective punishment" (a war-crime we accuse Israel of doing) or killing civilian in revenge (also a war-crime).

          •  That's what England did in WWII (0+ / 0-)

            Of course, they're white so they get a pass.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:14:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is this really the line of excuse for Hamas' (5+ / 0-)

              terror? White people did it seventy years ago?

              Deliberately trying to kill Palestinian civilians is monstrous. Would that this was a consistent position throughout the region.

              Unapologetic Obama supporter.

              by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:16:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Deliberately killing civilians is monstrous (0+ / 0-)

                wishing you could is clearly far, far more evil. It's self defense when Israel does it and terrorism when Hamas tries to do it.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:23:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's self-defense for both sides. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  It's also an attack for both sides. Neither side can claim that they've been acting in total self-defense. Both sides have targeted civilians, which is morally wrong. And yes, Likud have killed far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israelis.

                  Which is why the self-defense argument is quickly losing the ability to hold any water. If the rocket attacks had been effective in deterring the Israeli government from attacking Gaza, or if they had forced the Israeli government to redirect forces away from Gaza to defend against them, then it would make sense to continue the rocket attacks until a stalemate was reached. But the reality is that every time the rockets come from Gaza, the Israeli government responds by destroying the area that the rockets were fired from, killing civilians in the process. And nobody is surprised (although we're all horrified) when that happens, so as a defensive strategy, the rockets aren't really working. So why do Hamas and the other militant groups keep firing them?

                  A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                  by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:19:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The rockets continue to be fired (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza, WattleBreakfast

                    because the world ignores the Palestinians when there isn't an open conflict. Plenty of folks claim to be against the occupation, but it gets completely ignored by the media and most everyone else, even here, when there isn't a hot conflict going on. If the US and other countries responded to situations where nonviolent or unarmed Palestinian groups were being attacked like the US responds to this sort of conflagration then there might not be so many rocket attacks and Hamas might not be so damn popular.

                    As for the self defense issue, I agree with you. In both cases the actions are vaguely self defense. Clearly Israel's self defense plan of constantly bombing Palestinians is a complete failure, as is the "plan" to fire rockets at Israel in "self defense."

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:34:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm in absolute agreement with you. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT

                      We in the West pay no attention whatsoever to the plight of the Palestinian people until a conflict of this scale erupts (which is part of the reason I get so frustrated by some of the comments I see here), and as such we are guilty of silent consent. We as concerned outsiders have to be vocal in contacting the people that represent us and urging them to take substantive action to help foster an atmosphere of reconciliation between Israel and Palestine when they aren't fighting if this cycle is ever to end. That also means that we have to be willing to acknowledge that both sides have real concerns in this situation and not deny either party the opportunity to have those concerns addressed. We can't continue to dismiss the Palestinians as terrorists or the Israelis as warmongers, because by doing so we stop seeing this conflict for what it is: two groups of people that have been historically oppressed fighting to carve out a nation for themselves where they can live without fear of persecution or attack.

                      I don't know what the answer is here, but from what I've seen the violence isn't working for either party. And ignoring the problem until it explodes isn't working either. I'm loath to advocate US involvement in another foreign conflict, but perhaps we could write to the UN and ask them to do more than just issue statements of condemnation and provide aid. I know that the Israeli government has refused the UN's help in the past, but it's always worth another shot.

                      A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                      by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 04:44:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Why is that so hard to believe? (19+ / 0-)

      It is nothing more than exactly what Hamas said they would do.

    •  Bullshit (8+ / 0-)

      I don't buy Hamas' propaganda and never have.  They have no regard for human life, Israeli or Palestinian. Peddle it elsewhere.

    •  OK, how about AP -- or is that Israel propaganda? (4+ / 0-)

      From AP:

      Hamas officials said that even though they refused to extend the three-day cease-fire, they were willing to continue negotiations.

      An Israeli government official, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with government regulations, said Israel would not conduct negotiations under fire and would protect its citizens by all means.

      The Israeli delegation left Cairo on Friday morning, and it was not clear if it would return.

      Within minutes after the temporary truce expired at 8 a.m. (0500 GMT), Gaza militants began firing rockets. By midday, 33 rockets had been fired. Twenty-six landed in Israel, three were intercepted and four fell short in Gaza, the army said.

      Israel eventually responded with what the military said were strikes "across Gaza," without elaborating.

      •  Hamas is willing to keep talking? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, poco

        Israel isn't?
        where is the PA?

        so the rockets resumed after the expiration, not before?  The diarist reports they resumed earlier, in violation of the agreement?  Which is true?

        •  Does it matter? (6+ / 0-)

          Hamas broke the truce.

          Israel had previously said it wouldn't negotiate while Hamas was firing rockets at them.  So, when the rockets came, they left.

          Bottom line: a cease fire was working, parties were talking.

          And then Hamas started firing rockets.

          Clearly it must be Israel's fault.

          •  No, they didn't (0+ / 0-)

            These rockets weren't fired by Hamas, this is completely false. The ceasefire lasted 72 hours and then ended and then hostilities began again. No one broken the ceasefire except whatever group, not Hamas, fired the rockets.

            There was no truce, only a ceasefire.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:30:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So the argument now is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Victor Ward

              "It wasn't Hamas, it was Islamic Jihad! So of course, Israel is to blame."

              Kind of like Ariel Sharon putting the blame on the Christian Phalangists for Sabra and Shatila.

              Unapologetic Obama supporter.

              by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:40:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Making things up again I see (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mnemosyne42, WattleBreakfast

                Where did I say Israel was to blame?

                I'm reading my comment again and I don't see the word 'Israel' anywhere in there. I clearly blamed the group that fired the rockets in fact. Maybe if you read what I wrote instead of some weird made up argument I didn't make then you'd be able to be involved in the conversation in a way that is useful and not just you throwing out straw men to gallantly bat down.

                Israel didn't break the ceasefire, I never said they did. The diary however is lying. You can try and change the subject, but that doesn't change the facts.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:46:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're usually a lot more measured than this (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Zornorph, Victor Ward

                  Hope it's just a bad day or something.

                  The Hamas apologia is strange--while I find the idea of a functional difference between the terrorist entities to be mostly fictional, if your argument is that it was a different terrorist group, then fine...I guess. It was the terrorists with the black flag rather than the green one.

                  Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                  by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:54:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pointing out that the diary is false (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    WattleBreakfast

                    is not Hamas apologia. The constant blaming of Hamas for everything that happens in Gaza is propaganda. That it was a different group that broke the ceasefire does in fact matter.

                    If some militant group in Israel broke the Israeli side of the ceasefire and not the IDF, which obviously wouldn't happen but let's pretend, then that would be an important distinction.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:05:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So let's say Kach, Kahane Chai, or one (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Zornorph, mnemosyne42, Victor Ward

                      of the other militant right-wing Jewish terror groups decided this morning to start blowing up Palestinians in Ramallah or Jericho. Do you really think people would just say, "Oh that's not Israel, that's the terrorist groups. Don't blame Netanyahoo/the IDF."? Because I don't.

                      Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                      by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:28:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think that it would be false to say that (0+ / 0-)

                        completely false. I think it would be a horrible thing and I think that Israel would be blamed as a country, since those groups are Israeli. But blaming Hamas for the actions of other Palestinians is different.

                        But yes, I think plenty of people would just blame Israel and be done with it. Although based on the past I'd bet that the IDF would do something about it, as well they should. And as Hamas did about other groups firing off rockets during the ceasefire agreed on in 2012.

                        But anyone who blamed the IDF for those attacks would be wrong. Of course, that's all ignoring the regular practice of blaming everything on Israel, or Mossad more specifically. So really, if someone dropped their bread and it landed in the dirt in the Gaza I'd imagine there's a chance they'd blame Israel. I'm surprised I haven't seen any links blaming Israel for the kidnapping that precipitated all this. I'm sure they're out there.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:38:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Wait, what? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Victor Ward
                          blaming Hamas for the actions of other Palestinians is different
                          How so?

                          A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                          by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:26:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Mainly because there is no such attack (0+ / 0-)

                            But also because Israel is in fact a state and has control of it's country.

                            That and the fact that blaming Hamas for the actions of other Palestinians is then used as an excuse to attack all Palestinians.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:36:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with your last point (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT, Zornorph

                            and that it's unjust for the people of Gaza to be punished for the actions of the violent factions within their population. It's wrong to blame the citizens for the actions of extremists or their government.

                            But I can't abide absolving a government of responsibility for the actions of its citizens. No matter who is actually firing the rockets, Hamas is the recognized authority in Gaza and is obligated to act as such, which means that when an attack originates from Gaza, the buck stops with Hamas. So I don't agree that blaming Hamas for the actions of Islamic Jihad within Gaza is any different from blaming Israel for the actions of Kahane Chai.

                            A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                            by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:54:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry, that last sentence should read (0+ / 0-)

                            "blaming the Israeli government for the actions of Kahane Chai". I apologize for the miscategorization.

                            A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                            by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:55:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I think there is a difference (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Victor Ward, Zornorph

                    The militants reported to have fired the rockets were a different group from Hamas. However, Hamas is the government in Gaza. They have a responsibility to ensure that the citizens of Gaza aren't attacking either. If some yahoos in Buffalo fire a couple rockets at Toronto, the US government is responsible for apologizing to Canada and finding the perpetrators and prosecuting them to the fullest extent of the law, or extraditing them to Canada to stand trial there. Simply claiming that since it wasn't an officially sanctioned action by the US government, the government shouldn’t be blamed for the attack is absurd. Hamas needs to take responsibility for any attacks originating in Gaza and prove to the international community that it can keep peace within its borders.

                    A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                    by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:25:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Agreed. (0+ / 0-)

                  AoT never said Israel was to blame in that comment. It would do all of us a service to respond only to what commenters say, and not what we think or want them to say.

                  A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                  by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:21:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  There were a couple of rockets (4+ / 0-)

          fired off in the wee hours, around 2 or 3 am. You can check that at Times of Israel, which has a daily live-blog. Then promptly at 8 am, there was a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza. Those rocket firings continued for more than 2 hours before Israel struck back.

    •  It isn't propaganda (4+ / 0-)

      it's fact. Every reputable news organization is reporting it. Islamic Jihad has publicly acknowledged it has fired rockets today. Hamas has publicly acknowledged that it has refused to extend the cease fire.

      •  Yeah, but Islamic Jihad is pure hasbara (5+ / 0-)

        Am I doing it right?

        Unapologetic Obama supporter.

        by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:14:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That makes it propaganda (0+ / 0-)

        since the diary claims that Hamas broke the ceasefire, which is patently false.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:31:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was inaccurate (0+ / 0-)

          but what is completely true is that Hamas refused to extend the cease-fire beyond its expiration at 8 am this morning. Also indisputable is that beginning at 8 am, and continuing throughout the day, there has been a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza into Israel (and of course, a few rockets have misfired and landed in Gaza, because that's how they roll).

          •  It was flat out wrong and the diarist (0+ / 0-)

            along with others constantly make this same "mistake" when talking about rocket fire. It's false and the diarist knows it's false. Hamas did not violate any ceasefire. This is propaganda.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:41:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That doesn't mean (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, JayinPortland

              that following the expiration of the cease fire, Hamas didn't resume hostilities by firing rockets at Israel. You are quibbling.

              •  And? Israel did the same numerous times (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WattleBreakfast

                during the previous parts of the conflict. I didn't see anyone going after them for doing so. And Israel was offered truces a number of times as well and rejected them.

                Hamas resumed hostilities after the ceasefire ended. That's how ceasefires work. You stop firing for the duration and then once they're over the firing starts again. Israel has also started firing again now that the ceasefire is over.

                Now I'm suppose to believe that Hamas is the bad guy because they observed a ceasefire.

                And a gain, the diarist still has a lie as the name of the diary.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:33:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, you should believe Hamas is the bad guy (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Zornorph, JayinPortland

                  because their actions have led to the deaths of more than 1800 people.

                  because their refusal to accept the initial cease-fire proposal led to the deaths of 1600 people.

                  because they hate and oppress women.

                  because they hate and oppress gay people.

                  because they hate and want to murder Jews.

                  because when the latest cease-fire ended, they refused to extend it, causing more harm to innocent Palestinians throughout Gaza.

                  THAT is why you should believe Hamas is the bad guy.

                  •  Because they are the caricature of evil (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    WattleBreakfast

                    That's what happens under occupation. People with oppressive beliefs gain power. It's  a regular feature of occupations. Stopping the occupation is the best way of dealing with sexism and the other shit that Hamas represents.

                    But what does that have to do with the ceasefire ending?

                    And no, Israel is responsible for the people they kill, not Hamas. No matter how much you treat Israel like some sort of animal with no control of itself it will not be true. Israel knowingly and purposely killed those people, at least most of them. Hamas killed some people when their shitty rockets misfired and hit the wrong place. Using your standards that doesn't count as their responsibility though.

                    Using Israel's standards for responsibility we should probably blame Israel for those misfires since Israel made it so they couldn't build decent rockets. Or something.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:56:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  They aren't a caricature (0+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Hidden by:
                      WattleBreakfast

                      but you are.

                      •  Clearly they aren't, that's my point (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mnemosyne42

                        you and others turn them into one. There's people all over basically saying don't even mention anything about the social services they provide, because they're evil so we can't talk about anything they might do that's remotely good. Ignoring what they represent and why they exist is foolish and it doesn't help the situation any more than the people who demonize every person in the IDF based on the actions of some. Hamas serves real purposes in Gaza, that's the base of their popularity and power. I choose not to ignore that. They are not pure evil any more than the GOP is pure evil.

                        I'm also sorry for my previous insults to you in this comment section, it's got my hackles up and that can turn me into an asshole. I also perhaps attributed views to you that you don't hold. Sorry about that too.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 10:07:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No they aren't a caricature of evil (5+ / 0-)

                          because they are evil. Fuck their social services. You think that excuses them? "Oh, he's a child molester, but he also runs a free pre-school, so it's all good." No, it isn't. Because when you fire thousands of rockets indiscriminately over the border in hopes of killing civilians, when your charter calls for murdering Jews wherever they are, when you are anti-gay and anti-women, that pretty much cancels out the clinics and preschools. And after overstaying their welcome and preventing new elections, the base of their power is the ability to stick a gun in anyone's face. Look at all the stories coming out over the past couple of days about how they have intimidated and threatened journalists. That's their modus operandi. And what they do is orders of magnitude worse than the GOP.

                          So stop making excuses for them. You can defend the Palestinians and advocate for them without making excuses for Hamas.

                          •  When you kill a single civilian because (0+ / 0-)

                            of your incompetence you aren't a caricature of evil, you're a caricature of something else entirely.

                            So stop making excuses for them. You can defend the Palestinians and advocate for them without making excuses for Hamas.
                            I'm not making excuses for them. I'm explaining reality. Because apparently some folks have an aversion to it.
                            You think that excuses them? "Oh, he's a child molester, but he also runs a free pre-school, so it's all good."
                            Hamas isn't some random guy, they're a group that is made up of a lot of different people doing different things. The people giving out aid aren't the people firing rockets and neither of those are the ones getting elected legitimately to office by Palestinians. Pretending they are the equivalent of child molesters doesn't help anything.

                            And again, this has nothing to do with the current conflict. There was a ceasefire, it ended, the shooting started again. You're changing the subject from that because demonizing Hamas is the only way to discuss what's happening without talking about what Israel is doing.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 10:59:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

  •  How many Israeli casualties were there? (12+ / 0-)




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

    by DeadHead on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:45:13 PM PDT

  •  Whats the deal with collaborator executions? (4+ / 0-)

    Every time the war gets hot in Gaza we hear announcements of executions of  collaborators. If memory serves they aren't always freshly caught. In the past I recall an incident where bodies were dragged through the streets by motorcycles and it turns out the bodies were of people not accused of collaborating contemporaneous to the latest outbreak, but had been long term prisoners. Its not exactly clear to me or likely others why this happens repeatedly and why it only happens when war breaks out. Oh yeah... linking to World Nut Daily is a really bad way to try to make a point here.

    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings. Steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and they make you king.... Dylan

    by bywaterbob on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:45:48 PM PDT

    •  Wow, no history, not even American history, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Portlaw

      During the American Revolution, people were murdered for being United Empire Loyalists,

      They were murdered for just saying nice things about British rule,

      They were murdered for "collaborating" with British Troops in British occupied area's even if that just meant being forced to lodge British troops or not dying to prevent foraging British Troops from taking food and livestock,

      They were murdered for refusing to sell, land, food, products for worthless Revolutionary script,

      And sometimes they were just murdered because they had some pretty things that the Sons of Liberty wanted.

    •  I would take that report with a (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dallasdunlap, Fishtroller01, CenPhx

      large grain of salt.
      It's an orthodox Jewish online news site, and we know that Israel has not exactly been honest in reporting the news.

      If trees gave off WIFi signals, we would probably plant so many trees, we would save the planet. Too bad they only produce the oxygen we breathe.

      by skohayes on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:42:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hamas always intended to break the ceasefire (12+ / 0-)

    It expected Israel to cave to its demands in three days? After being the clear military loser?

    It took seven weeks to negotiate a mere armistice between Israel and Egypt in 1949. Not a peace treaty. The armistices between Israel and Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria took even longer and to this day there still is no armistice between Israel and Iraq.  

    What peace treaty has been negotiated in three days?

    Even after Hitler's death it took over a week to negotiate an orderly surrender of the Nazi military.

    Hamas never intended to keep the ceasefire; it knew that its outrageous demands would never be accepted and it refused to negotiate seriously.

    The losers are the people of Gaza.

  •  They want Palestinians to give up their guns (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SoCalSal

    Try that one here in the US and you get the same response, laughter.

    •  Rockets and tunnels. (6+ / 0-)

      Doesn't look like many Israelis have the patience to worry about what Gazans do with guns in their own territory...just so long as it doesn't spill over the line.

      •  LOL. Tunnels not an arm to disarm , rockets (0+ / 0-)

        You will have to pry them from the last gazan's cold dead hands.

        •  Er... (0+ / 0-)

          I really hope that, contrary to your claim, Gazan value their lives more than they value the ability to kill Jews.

          If not, well, the only end to this conflict is either the destruction of Israel (6 million Jews) or the destruction of Gaza (1.8 million).

          •  Having arms does not mean they need be used (0+ / 0-)

            I know people who actually make cannons just because they have them does not mean they are seizing the nearest town. Disarming as a condition to peace would need to be adhered to by both parties and I am sure Israel will not be disarming. Neither party can trust the other and both with good reason.

            •  Do the people you know that make cannons (0+ / 0-)

              have a history of using those cannons to fire explosives at people they don't like?

              Hamas is only defending itself against the Israeli government. It's never fought a war with another country. Israel, on the other hand, has had to defend its borders from every single one of its neighbors over the course of its sixty-four year existence. The threat that requires arms is not equal for both parties. If Hamas would disarm and submit to inspections from agreed-upon third parties, the Israeli government would have no reason to continue attacking Gaza, and the blockade would be ended, because without the threat of Hamas, Likud has no demonstrable reason to continue those policies.

              A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

              by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:46:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They had no reason this time to attack Gaza (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco

                so, sorry,  Gaza is always under the threat of attack from Israel at Israels whim. Plus they are stealing their land to boot.

                •  How are you defining "attack"? (0+ / 0-)

                  If you're talking about the June raids and arrests, those happened in response to the kidnappings. You're welcome to claim that the Israeli government used the kidnappings as an excuse, but the fact is that the raids did chronologically follow the kidnappings. It's still debatable whether or not members of Hamas had any involvement in the kidnappings, but it's possible that if Hamas had immediately condemned the kidnappings instead of congratulating the kidnappers and had made an effort to bring those responsible for justice, the raids may not have occurred.

                  If you're talking about the June 29th air strike, militants within Gaza had been firing rockets into Israel since May 1st. Whether or not those militants were under orders from Hamas leadership is irrelevant. Hamas is the authority in Gaza and is therefore responsible for any attacks on Israel originating in Gaza, just as Israel is responsible for controlling the terrorist Jewish organizations in Israel.

                  If you're talking about the escalation of airstrikes on Gaza in July, Hamas and militant groups had already been firing rockets at civilian areas in Israel for quite a while before those occurred. It doesn’t excuse the disproportionate response from the Israeli government, but there's no question of provocation.

                  And if you're talking about the blockade, I agree with you. It's barbaric and cruel and should be ended. The origin of that shameful story goes too far back for a comment in a diary. But from what I've been seeing, the violence against Israel is only strengthening the Israeli hawks' position in the Israeli government and making an end to the oppression of Gaza less likely in the foreseeable future. It's time for a new strategy for Hamas, and if they're unwilling to end the violence, the people of Gaza deserve leadership who will.

                  A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

                  by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 05:06:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Not at all (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward, Zornorph

            Hamas, as genocidal as it is, cannot destroy Israel.  Israel, as powerful as she is, will not commit genocide.

            So the options are Hamas' destruction and a negotiated peace, or one which Israel imposes on the Palestinians.  Successive Israeli government have already taken steps in this direction, securing the Jordan River Valley and disengagement from Gaza.  The next step would be to expand walls to complete the separation of Israel and a significantly reduced Palestine.  Fait accompli.

  •  Why does Hamas do this? (10+ / 0-)

    Are they really seeking "freedom" for Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere?

    Or are they, as stated in the Hamas Charter, seeking to eliminate the Zionist presence in the Muslim world to create a Sharia state?

    If the latter, Hamas is no different from ISIS.

  •  Well, Hamas has picked its hill to die on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie, DeniseDenefyou, JayinPortland

    At this point, it would probably save more lives to finish the fight than not.

  •  Adding the executions to the total death toll (7+ / 0-)

    and then blaming it on Israel is truly shameless.

    Same for Hamas rockets that fall short and land in Gaza.

  •  Your links are priceless (8+ / 0-)

    From @theyeshivaworld.com:

    A number of Palestinians who have collaborated with Israel have been executed by Hamas terrorists in Gaza, a website revealed today.

    Al-Majd website, known to be have close links with Hamas, said that the “resistance factions in Gaza executed a number of collaborators, who were monitoring the activities of the resistance groups in the Gaza Strip and houses in the areas of different parts of the sector”.

    The website quoted a security source, whose identity was not disclosed

    So, lemme see: Hamas are evil and you can't believe a word they say; so you keep telling us. Yet here you are, quoting Yeshiva World (a completely unbiased site, obviously), who are quoting a Hamas-linked website, who are quoting an unamed 'security source'.

    Hilarious. Still, I guess it's an improvement on linking to WND, the wingnuts delight, where every single word is a lie.

    Your i24 link is a peach, too. Their story is based on:

    ...according to Palestinian media reports.
    They provide no links or direct quotes and cite no actual sources.

    As for the JP link:

    Earlier Friday morning, two rockets apparently landed in southern Israel after being fired from Gaza, the IDF reported.
    Sorry, but 'apparently' and 'the IDF reported' aren't good enough.

    This whole diary is based on unfounded allegations. Color me shocked.

    Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill

    by Retroactive Genius on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 11:39:27 PM PDT

  •  The leadership of both sides should be tried fo... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Richard Villiers

    The leadership of both sides should be tried for crimes against humanity and never allowed to see the light of day again.

  •  Not shocked, Hamas is a terrorist group (6+ / 0-)

    Gaza will be demilitarized, the only question is how many will have to die before Hamas is forced to surrender their rockets and rifles.

    This revolution is not scheduled!

    by harrylimelives on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:02:34 AM PDT

  •  Hamas (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pilsner, skohayes, poco, Portlaw

    has not fired any rockets yet.

    At 8am when the truce ended Islamic Jihad fired rockets at Israeli border towns.

    At 7am the Israeli negotiating team left Egypt without a deal. Around  5am Hamas declared that the negotiations were not going anywhere.

    Israel fired at al-nur mosque at 8:05am killing one child.

    When Hamas begins firing, and I don't know if they will, they will hit the airport and Tel-Aviv hard. This has not happened yet.

    •  Is Hamas no longer in control of Gaza? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Victor Ward, JayinPortland, Zornorph

      Do the actions of its citizens now happen outside of its jurisdiction? If my dog escapes my yard and bites someone, should I not be blamed for it?

      Hamas has a responsibility to prevent attacks originating from within Gaza, whether those attacks are committed by sanctioned Hamas forces or not. The fact that it was Islamic Jihad that fired rockets on Israel is trivial. All that matters is that when the negotiations fell apart (or possibly even before), residents of the area that Hamas controls decided that the right thing to do was to recommence firing rockets at civilians.

      This strategy isn't working for Gaza. It only ends with more dead civilians. It's time to try something new.

      A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

      by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:53:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who knows if they are. (0+ / 0-)

        The goal was to break their control on Gaza and I wouldn't be surprised if it worked somewhat. The idea that anyone is in control of Gaza right now strikes me as wishful thinking at best.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:10:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then the peace talks are pointless. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayinPortland, AoT

          If nobody can claim responsibility for the actions and welfare of the people of Gaza, how are peace talks going to be productive?

          A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

          by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:43:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Israel's goal was to make them pointless (0+ / 0-)

            Israel knows that Hamas is responsible for stopping rocket attacks, or at least keeping them to a minimum. "destroying" Hamas means less control of Gaza and more rockets from smaller groups.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 05:06:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So what's Likud's endgame? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              You really believe they just want to destroy Palestine for good? I have no idea what they're thinking. You seem to be very educated on this subject, I'm honestly asking what you think.

              A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

              by mnemosyne42 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 10:55:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think the Likud faithful do. (0+ / 0-)

                I would imagine the majority of their voters don't. I expect what Likud wants in the case of Gaza is just to be done with it. They'd be happy if they could hand it off to Egypt and let Egypt do the killing.

                In practical terms I think Greater Israel is almost certainly going to become a reality.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Sun Aug 10, 2014 at 06:01:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Diarist should delete or edit title (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, poco

    Title asserts that Hamas is responsible, and provides a link. But if you check the link, the article does not claim that Hamas is responsible.

    Misleading at best. Please correct.

  •  In is noon and (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skohayes, protectspice, poco, Portlaw

    Hamas has not fired any rockets or weapons on Israel.

    The negotiators are still deliberating with Egyptian intelligence.

    Islamic Jihad has fired home made rockets (home made in the sense of sugar-phosphorous propelled), but that was at 8am.

    Israel has bombed one mosque, one house, and an open fields.

    •  And what has Hamas done to prevent Islamic Jihad (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Victor Ward, JayinPortland

      from firing on Israel?

      A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

      by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:54:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hamas has stopped rocket attacks in the past (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mnemosyne42, poco

        specifically during the previous ceasefire. Including arresting those responsible. Whether they have the ability now is a different question.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:11:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Victor Ward, AoT, poco

          It should be important for any truce agreement to include a provision that Hamas pledges to effectively prevent any further attacks on Israel from within their borders or by their citizens. Israel's government will have to do the same. The ability of the two governments to stop dissenting parties from provoking further conflict can't be in question if a truce is going to hold.

          A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

          by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 03:36:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Collaborators (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice, poco

    What an official link regarding the execution of collaborators... how persuasive, especially the line about "a website revealed.."

    If true, though, this is indeed a heinous offense. Cases of treason and espionage need time to investigate, and can not be railroaded to a determination, especially during wartime. (And imho should in any event not be capital offenses.)

    Take, for example, the case of Meir Tobianski, an IDF soldier executed by the IDF in 1948 under suspicion of spying for Jordan. When the smoke cleared, the IDF realized they had made a mistake and he was posthumously exonerated and promoted.

    And apparently Israeli paramilitary organizations such as Haganah executed accused collaborators as well. It was wrong when the Israeli forces did it when they were fighting against stronger forces, and it's wrong if Hamas is doing it now.

    Link:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

  •  Why did the talks break down? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Richard Villiers, poco

    any chance they can be restarted?

    •  Negotiations over the number of Palestinians (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pilsner, poco, Portlaw

      to be released. Israel wants to release 8 and the bodies of 18, but keep those who where reasserted after the Shalit deal. In return Israel wants the 2 Israel army bodies that Hamas has (the one which Israel destroyed alshujayia for and the one which they destroyed Rafah for).

      I think that there is agreement on other things, including opening Gaza's borders even the Gaza port and fishermen being able to fish in all of the 12miles.

  •  The US role in talks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poco

    I know we had a rep in Cairo, observing the talks, but it looks like we aren't claiming any direct role.  Or are we?   Has the US stated a position on the breakdown or resumption in talks?

    •  The talks are no direct negotiations (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pilsner, poco

      The US has an observer with the Egyptians, the Palestinians talk to the Egyptians and go to their hotel. The Israeli's talk to the Egyptians and go back to Tel-Aviv. Presently the Israeli's are in Tel-Aviv and the Palestinians are talking to the Egyptians. The Israeli team has returned and will hear what the Palestinians have to say.

      The Palestinians are made up of two groups, Hamas and Fatah. They have to negotiate among themselves.

      •  The US role (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        I wonder

        Did either party invite The US to participate directly?
        If so, did we refuse?
        Did either party reject US direct participation?

        Or did the US simply decide not to take a direct role.

        There seems to be a shift in roles here.

  •  So, (0+ / 0-)

    Hamas's long game seems to be to provoke disproportionate responses from Israel, in order to shock the conscience of the International community, and erode external and internal support in Israel.  They seem to want to draw in IDF forces, in order to conduct an attritive action on IDF forces, while keeping Israeli civilian casualties low, to highlight the disproportionality.
    This morning fires are likely from PIJ, maybe or maybe not coordinated with Hamas, but it doesn't matter.  It served the purpose.  Their goal is to turn world opinion against Israel, and inflict psychological and economic damage on the ISraeli population.
    Hamas is dug in their tunnels and can keep this up for months
    A couple of weeks of

    Israel can choose to play Hamas' game, or try something different

  •  gaza beaches (0+ / 0-)

    with global warming how much on gaza will be under water?

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