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ISIS, Al Qaeda, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza, Hamas, Israel, Somalia, Pakistan, Ukraine, Russia...and, now this breaking news from The Department of “What-Could-Possibly-Go-Wrong?”


U.S., allies to stage exercises in West Ukraine as battles rage in East

By Peter Apps
Reuters
WASHINGTON Tue Sep 2, 2014 1:41pm EDT

(Reuters) - As fighting between the army and Russian-backed rebels rages in eastern Ukraine, preparations are under way near its western border for a joint military exercise this month with more than 1,000 troops from the United States and its allies.

The decision to go ahead with the Rapid Trident exercise Sept. 16-26 is seen as a sign of the commitment of NATO states to support non-NATO member Ukraine while stopping well short of military intervention in the conflict.

The annual exercise, to take place in the Yavoriv training center near Ukraine's border with Poland, was initially scheduled for July, but was put back because early planning was disrupted by the crisis in the eastern part of the country.

"At the moment, we are still planning for (the exercise) to go ahead," U.S. Navy Captain Gregory Hicks, spokesman for the U.S. Army's European Command said on Tuesday...

Per Kossack corvo, in the comments, from the Reuters story...

..."It is very important to understand that a military solution to this problem is not going to be forthcoming," Obama told reporters at the White House last week...

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UPDATE (9:00PM EDT, 9/2/14):

A very tangentially related piece of breaking news...

Reuters is only running a headline under a "breaking news" banner; here’s the story (the only thing that’s coming up in a Google search, for the moment, at least as far as any semi-quotable news source is concerned) from Business Insider.com…


US SENDS 350 MORE TROOPS TO PROTECT EMBASSY IN BAGHDAD

Paul Szoldra
BusinessInsider.com
Sep. 2, 2014, 8:33 PM

President Obama authorized the deployment of approximately 350 additional troops to "to protect diplomatic facilities and personnel in Baghdad, Iraq," according to a statement released by the White House on Tuesday.

The statement made clear that the additional troops would "not serve in a combat role." Obama previously announced he was sending 300 troops into Iraq in late June, with 200 providing security at the embassy, support facilities, and Baghdad's airport, according to Defense One.

This latest increase pegs the total number of troops in Iraq at nearly 1500, according to ABC News' Jon Williams.

The article provides us with the full statement from the White House...
Today, the President authorized the Department of Defense to fulfill a Department of State request for approximately 350 additional U.S. military personnel to protect our diplomatic facilities and personnel in Baghdad, Iraq.  This action was taken at the recommendation of the Department of Defense after an extensive interagency review, and is part of the President's commitment to protect our personnel and facilities in Iraq as we continue to support the Government of Iraq in its fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).  These additional forces will not serve in a combat role.

The President has made clear his commitment to doing whatever is required to provide the necessary security for U.S. personnel and facilities around the world.  The request he approved today will allow some previously deployed military personnel to depart Iraq, while at the same time providing a more robust, sustainable security force for our personnel and facilities in Baghdad.

In addition to our efforts to protect our personnel, we will continue to support the Government of Iraq's efforts to counter ISIL, which poses a threat not only to Iraq, but to the broader Middle East and U.S. personnel and interests in the region.  The President will be consulting this week with NATO allies regarding additional actions to take against ISIL and to develop a broad-based international coalition to implement a comprehensive strategy to protect our people and to support our partners in the fight against ISIL.  As part of this effort, Secretary Kerry, Secretary Hagel, and President Obama’s counterterrorism advisor, Lisa Monaco, will be traveling separately to the region in the near-term to build a stronger regional partnership.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (25+ / 0-)

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 03:36:49 PM PDT

  •  And . . . . ? N/T (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tapu dali, Dr Swig Mcjigger, askew

    Frankly, I’m getting more than a little tired of hearing from angry America. I’m also less than fond of knee-jerk America. And when you combine the two with the Internet, you too often get stupid America, which is really annoying.

    by jsfox on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 03:41:06 PM PDT

  •  very cunning of you, bobswern, (12+ / 0-)

    to leave out the punch line:

    "It is very important to understand that a military solution to this problem is not going to be forthcoming," Obama told reporters at the White House last week.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 03:46:33 PM PDT

  •  Good preparation (0+ / 0-)

    for when Ukraine joins NATO later this year.

    "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 03:53:49 PM PDT

    •  Ukraine won't be joining NATO. (10+ / 0-)

      There are a whole bunch of clauses regarding land claims and ongoing conflicts, that bar NATO from allowing membership to nations involved in conflicts.

      When NATO was formed, the core nations were very aware of the propensity for weaker nation states to attempt to game NATO membership, to get NATO to weigh in on their side in an active conflict.

      Just as Georgia will never be part of NATO, the current Ukraine will never be part of NATO.

      •  Which ones? (0+ / 0-)

        And why did the head of NATO indicate that membership would be granted if requested last week?

        Were it not for Obama's cowardice in not calling Putin's bluff, there would be no need for this to have been expedited.

        "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

        by Lib Dem FoP on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:15:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because "Fogh of War" probably has his head (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, native, fran1

          way up his butt.

        •  'Obama's cowardice'?! Are u on drugs? Caution (6+ / 0-)

          and deftness are what is called for here. Not sabre-rattling or nuclear brinksmanship.

          Putinism ends with Putin.  But a new cold war likely will far outlast him.

          The West has as a bad hand here, for reasons of geography, European appeasers, Russia having a shitload of nukes, Bush pissing away the post-WW2 order while leaving a legacy of war-weariness, cynicism and a Thug party that very visibly and even gleefully undermines US security and interests just to stick a finger in BO's eye, among other things.  

          IOW, since we are not going to war with Russia period, all that is left is containment. So far though, imo, BO has played this bad hand about as well as he could.  Not perfectly by a long shot, but then who's perfect?

          If Putin doesn't stop, all he will succeed in doing is cementing a whitehot hatred of Russia in Ukraine which will still be on its border for-frakking-ever.  He will not take or defeat Ukraine.  He does not even have the excuse of a false claim to a progressive ideology that the USSR had.  Putin only has a naked for empire, and everyone can see it.

          Thus, regardless of what happens shortterm, any gains for Russia will not last and will be more than offset by the security nightmare he will have created on his border.

          •  Yes cowardice (0+ / 0-)

            The initial "non of our business" in the invasion of Crimea was the green card for Putin to further expand his new Russian empire. Sanctions should have been implemented a lot quicker by the west as soon as the first men in green appeared and were identified as Russian soldiers.

            It's also cowardice to not use the UN General Assembly to change the structure of the UN Security Council to modify the vetos to allow an over-ride by a super majority. That of course would only have one effect on the USA - its constant vetoes of motions on Israel would go.

            Obama's considered delay is degrading into pure dithering while Rome burns.

            "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:25:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You cannot "change the structure of the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              carlos the jackal, ChadmanFL

              UN Security Council" without amending the Charter.  And, guess what?  Charter revisions must be ratified by 2/3's of the membership -- including the five permanent members.  For the US, that means Senate ratificiation.

              Article 108
              Amendments to the present Charter shall come into force for all Members of the United Nations when they have been adopted by a vote of two thirds of the members of the General Assembly and ratified in accordance with their respective constitutional processes by two thirds of the Members of the United Nations, including all the permanent members of the Security Council.
              UN Charter - Chapter XVIII

              So, not only are you forward neo-con bullshit, asserting that Obama is acting out of cowardice, you are totally full of shit about eliminating the veto.

              But, thanks for playing.  We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

              Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking moron who can simply go to hell. -- kos

              by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 04:46:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  NATO has had no difficulty (5+ / 0-)

        compromising its own stated principles whenever efficacious.  Despite the hooey in Article 2 about "strengthening their free institutions," for instance, Greece remained a bona fide member throughout the years of its notoriously brutal right-wing dictatorship, and I hardly have to mention that it's carried out some manifestly non-defensive military actions outside the geographic parameters outlined in Article 6.

        So I don't see why Ukraine's admission isn't in the bag.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:29:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  More saber-rattling! (14+ / 0-)

    How better to celebrate the 100th Anniversary of WWI with another major European war?

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 03:58:22 PM PDT

    •  Biggest Winner? China (6+ / 0-)

      While the US gets bogged down in the Middle East and the Ukraine, China continues to assert territorial claims over land that belongs to US allies.

      So much for our pivot to Southeast Asia.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

      by PatriciaVa on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:11:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, we can not cancel a YEARLY EXERCISE w/o (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sky Net

      sending the wrong signal to Putin, who would almost certainly interpret it as a  sign of US abandoning Ukraine and escalate.

      IOW, in this case, the least provocative action is to continue with the previously scheduled yearly exercise.

      Appeasement does not work.  We should have learned that almost 80 years ago.

      •  Pfffft. (8+ / 0-)

        If anyone has been 'appeasing,' it's been Russia's tolerance of NATO encroachment.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:16:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If your objective is peace (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobswern, Sandino, fran1, ChadmanFL

        Marching your army on the doorstep of a conflict is NOT the way to achieve it.

         I think some people have confused "sending messages" with "seeking peace". They are NOT the same thing.

        "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

        by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 07:24:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But invading countries, as Russia is doing, is? (0+ / 0-)

          See, Georgia, Moldova, now Ukraine.

          I hope you're getting paid for pushing the Czar's propaganda here.

          •  My point stands (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL

            What exactly is your objective?
            Because the actions you endorse don't lead to peace.

            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

            by gjohnsit on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 08:27:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Peace in our time', you mean? Appeasement does (0+ / 0-)

              not work.  It only leads to a worse war later.

              Putin is pining for his old Empire and influence.  Those days are gone.  That Empire was established by conquest and those conquered people want nothing to do with  it resurrection.

              That you can not understand that Putin is the one causing mischief, as he did in Georgia and Moldova, and that he is serious about trying to achieve his stated goal of a new Russian empire including 'all the russ', as Hitler did for his stated goal based on the same theory of ethnic nationalism, and with the same disregard of history or the desires of the majorities of the countries he would conquer speaks volumes about you.

              Sadly.

              My objective is also imo Obama's: help the nations in the line of Czar Putin's mad ambition to create the Russian Empire until Putin leaves the scene.  At that point, we'll see what comes next there.  I suspect the 'new Boyars', the Oligarchs, will take over bc the real power there is economic and it is not centralized, unlike China.

    •  Putin has sent his tanks rolling (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      psnyder, debedb, charlatan

      into another country to celebrate peace.

  •  Interesting news. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, psnyder, carlos the jackal

    Putin escalated and we are also.  I don't automatically condemn this, but you are correct that it is risky.  So also is Putin's invasion of Russian troops into Ukraine and shooting down (or providing weaponry to shoot down) a passenger jet.  

    Putin is out of control.  But this is a dangerous escalation.  

       

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:01:41 PM PDT

    •  Well, it's also the 9th year of Rapid Trident (9+ / 0-)

      which has been held in Yavoriv since 2006. If the intention were to escalate the conflict, I don't see how postponing the event did much to change the dynamics of what's going on. I'm sure Russia has never liked this taking place, but it's been happening for nearly a decade.

      Better that they'd canceled it altogether, for sure, but it's not like this event was designed specifically to escalate things.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:25:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The airliner (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      protectspice, native, Sandino, fran1

      issue has not been resolved.

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:17:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ukraine has no place in NATO (10+ / 0-)

      John Mearsheimer, one of America's leading International Relations theorists, has a new article out which details how this crisis is an outgrowth of the same liberal imperialism that has marred our foreign policy for the last two decades.

      To understand why the West, especially the United States, failed to understand that its Ukraine policy was laying the groundwork for a major clash with Russia, one must go back to the mid-1990s, when the Clinton administration began advocating NATO expansion. Pundits advanced a variety of arguments for and against enlargement, but there was no consensus on what to do. Most eastern European émigrés in the United States and their relatives, for example, strongly supported expansion, because they wanted NATO to protect such countries as Hungary and Poland. A few realists also favored the policy because they thought Russia still needed to be contained.

      But most realists opposed expansion, in the belief that a declining great power with an aging population and a one-dimensional economy did not in fact need to be contained. And they feared that enlargement would only give Moscow an incentive to cause trouble in eastern Europe. The U.S. diplomat George Kennan articulated this perspective in a 1998 interview, shortly after the U.S. Senate approved the first round of NATO expansion. “I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies,” he said. “I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anyone else.”

      Most liberals, on the other hand, favored enlargement, including many key members of the Clinton administration. They believed that the end of the Cold War had fundamentally transformed international politics and that a new, postnational order had replaced the realist logic that used to govern Europe. The United States was not only the “indispensable nation,” as Secretary of State Madeleine Albright put it; it was also a benign hegemon and thus unlikely to be viewed as a threat in Moscow. The aim, in essence, was to make the entire continent look like western Europe.

      It's worth noting that Mearsheimer was half of the duo that argued the case against invasion prior to the Iraq War. And, it's not entirely unrelated.

      If nothing else the aftermath of the Iraq War should have taught us that the greatest danger of liberal imperialism, the belief that we make the world a safer place by trying to remake it in our own image, is that we end up taking far more lives than we save when we act upon this impulse.  In the final estimation, it seems likely that if the United States had never invaded Iraq many thousands of people killed in the conflict would now be breathing.  In this instance Saddam Hussein was the lesser evil.  In trying to remake Iraq in our own image we did far more harm than if we had simply kept him in his cage.

      For his faults, Vladimir Putin is no Saddam Hussein, and he is certainly not an Adolph Hitler.  He is a cold-calculating authoritarian leader responding to the perception of threat.  Pulling further expansion of NATO off the table goes a long ways towards removing the perception of threat.  The best possible future involves a reset in which Ukraine subjected to Finlandization.

      If we aren't careful, ten years from now we are going to be having the same sorts of conversations we have now about Iraq about Ukraine. And many more will be dead. Is trying to remake Ukraine in our own image really worth that?

      http://www.economicpopulist.org

      by ManfromMiddletown on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:36:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Which invasion are you talking about? (8+ / 0-)

      The one with the humanitarian convoy where the tanks evaporated? Or the one where Russian artillery on their border is shown in satellite photos NOT shelling anything.

      You must mean the satellite photos showing Russian tanks in the Donbass region. After, and this is according to Kiev's own military officials report, the rebels had confiscated 35 tanks in July (more in August) when they took over a couple of arsenals. (And the tanks, btw, in all Ukraine are Russian made.)
      Go here to translate the terms if in doubt. The signatures are of the Kiev Gov's Minister of the Interior and the Minister for Anti-Terrorism]

      Perhaps you mean the one where the Kiev government says so? Honest, for real. Because you can trust them, right? Though Obama won't use the word 'invasion.'

      Maybe you're talking about the reports of Michael "Embed" Gordon -- the guy at the NY Times who helped push the 'Saddam's aluminum tubes' hoax? (He gets extra credit for the Assad sarin missiles story, later debunked by The NY Times itself and also by Seymour Hersh who spoke with US intel and UN inspectors

      Gordon says he talked to another, unnamed, reporter who was shown photos by our own government of Putin throwing babies out of incubators, er, no, strike that, sending troops into Ukraine.

      Remember, these reports follow on the 'Jews being order to register in rebel areas' hoax; the Ukrainian hi-res photo released by the State Department/NY Times as fuzzy images purporting to be a Russian soldier in Ukraine (who was actually a native Ukrainian as the website they stole from, and deliberately distorted, the image pointed out.)

      It's a bit weird that after, literally, two generations of being lied to about causes for ramping up aggression Americans still buy whatever the fuck they're told, without pausing to ask for one minute if they are being misled.

      Perhaps reading the opinion of the Intelligence Officials [who warned of the propaganda about Saddam's WMD, now warning Merkel http://consortiumnews.com/...
      ] of Germany about the rigged intel on Ukraine, might be illuminating.

      Oh well, gotta have international conflict if we're going to keep the economy going, eh?

      MEANWHILE...

      The UN reports that there are MORE THAN 1,000,000 refugees from the assault by Kiev forces on their own people! (Who gives a shit about governments killing their own people, right? Never mattered anywhere before that any of us can recall.)

      814,000 of those refugees have fled to Russia. The UN considers their internally displaced estimate as a low-ball figure. The UN also about 2,600 have been killed in East Ukraine. That about matches the recent killings in Gaza by our other friends. That's what we should appreciate, consistency in the nations we align with.

      But that... that's not a problem for people here. Not even worth the mention, when you think of it. After all, they're just fucking Russian heritage creatures. Better if all Ukraine could be cleansed of all of them, neh?
       


      My country goes dead making money.

      by Jim P on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:13:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the one (2+ / 0-)

        where russian soldiers' widows are pressured into silence.

        the one where soldiers are sent to "exercises" or where they "get lost".

        that one.

        •  There are also French, Swedish, (0+ / 0-)

          Brits, Chechens, and other nationalities fighting either with the separatists or with the Kiev thug/racial eliminationist government. http://www.bbc.com/...

          Do you think that France and Chechnya has invaded then?

          As to the mass troops claimed over and over but never shown -- they don't exist.

          So, how cool are you with our friends creating over a million refugees? Killing over 2500 people, and destroying major cities. Do you think the refugees mainly flee to Russia because they fear Russian invasion?

          There is strong evidence that rank-and-file Russian fighters have entered east Ukraine to join the rebels, but whether they are volunteers making common cause with ethnic Russians in Luhansk and Donetsk, or mercenaries, is a grey area.

          Rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko has stated publicly that between 3.000 and 4,000 Russian "volunteers" have fought for the rebels since the start of the uprising in April.

          "There are also many in the current Russian military that prefer to spend their leave among us, brothers who are fighting for their freedom, rather than on a beach," he said on 28 August.


          My country goes dead making money.

          by Jim P on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 08:26:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

            volunteers

            polite green men

            if that is so, why is Lev Shlossberg attacked when investigating: https://twitter.com/...

            •  So, you're cool with the ethnic cleansing then? (0+ / 0-)

              I'm guessing because of your continued silence on the point.

              Also, ten Russian paratroopers were caught in Ukraine. That's a fact.

              As to Mr Shlosberg's attack -- and of course Putin is a thug and a dictator, and he's killed a number of real journalists apart from the other crimes he's committed -- it was TWO 2 DOS DEUX DUE DVAH funerals he was investigating.

              Does "2" strike you as an indicator of major troop, tank, and artillery action like Kiev and the professional liars in State and the NY Times has been portraying?

              Tell me you think so.

              Even if Russia has sent in some troops, it doesn't constitute an invasion with massive tank columns and massive artillery. Why do you think Obama avoids using the word, even after the Kiev regime used it for the evaporated tanks, and the tanks from rebel-captured armories.

              But, seriously, you don't think the coup Regime (and yes there was an election, and yes it did exclude votes from the Russian-dominant population, and yes THEY ARE BOMBING THEIR OWN PEOPLE...)

              ...but you saw the UN link above, right?

              So a relative handful of Russians -- maybe volunteers, maybe ordered, maybe mercenaries -- compared to the full Ukraine military (the parts which haven't deserted in droves at least), is a really really big deal but ethnic cleansing on a massive scale... everybody's duty is to let that go by. That's okay in your world?

              You're eager to swallow an invasion which is entirely undocumented while bending over backwards to accept massive assaults on civilians BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT!

              So what's up with that? Is it only when brown thugs bomb their own people that it's a big deal, and then someone else has to intervene (like the US)?

              C'mon: massive attacks on Russian-speaking citizens, indiscriminate bombing of cities, massive refugee populations, deaths in the thousands and all continuing... you're okay with that? Or is it wrong?


              My country goes dead making money.

              by Jim P on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 02:36:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't see ethnic cleansing (0+ / 0-)

                I see a fucked up situation created by Strelkov under Huilo's direction.

                Would you like to bring up a crucified boy?

                •  You don't see 1 million refugees plus? (0+ / 0-)

                  You don't see 2,600 killed so far?
                  You don't see cities indiscriminately shelled by artillery and bombed from the air?
                  The UN does.

                  So you're cool with what our nazi/fascist allies are doing.

                  You'd have it, then, that it's the ethnic Russians in Ukraine targeting ethnic Russians. You'll come up with 2 paratroopers here, an odious crime there, but shelling cities and driving 800,000 people (so far) to seek refuge in Russia and x-hundreds of thousands of more to just flee... you pull a Sergeant Schultz, eh? https://www.youtube.com/...

                  Btw, OSCE, which just two months ago was the go-to reference for people here as the neutral observers organization to quote... they've seen no invasion. Odd all the gullible here stopped referencing them.


                  My country goes dead making money.

                  by Jim P on Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 03:18:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so could you please answer (0+ / 0-)

                    who's targeting ethnic russians in Kiev? Odessa? Elsewhere? If there's such ethnic cleansing.

                    Where are the pogroms of Russian speakers anywhere in UA?

                    Sure there are refugees. You'd be a refugee too if "local resistance" bought some weapons in a "surplus store" and took over your city.  

                    After first conducting a "referendum" in a neighboring state.

                    There are freaking refugees on our Mexican border, aren't there? And it's not because of ethnic cleansing, there are just people escaping thugs.

                    Where did you find nazis, btw? I haven't met any.

  •  Talk about mindless saber rattling (9+ / 0-)

    Now this will really scare the Russians.

    East Ukraine is gone.  Those Russian speaking Ukrainians will get their wish.  The economic sanctions will do absolutely nothing to deter the Russians.  They got Crimea and now they want a bit of Eastern Ukraine.

    If Kiev gets it's wish it won't be a new cold war, it will be a hot war.  The Europeans know this.

    I bet these exercises will not take place.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

    by Shockwave on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:05:39 PM PDT

    •  I hope you're right! n/t (7+ / 0-)

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:12:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Man, I am so sick of seeing the propaganda (11+ / 0-)

      of a quasi-fascist, authoritarian state being repeated on a progressive website:

       

      Those Russian speaking Ukrainians will get their wish.
      Just because someone speaks Russian, it doesn't mean that they want to be part of Russia. If language equaled preferred nationality, Canada, Australia, and the U.S. would still be British and Austria would be part of Germany.  Fyi, the majority of people in Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Ukrainians, and even many ethnic Russians don't want to be annexed by Russia.

      The only people getting their wish with the scenario that you are painting are the Russian nationalists with Russian citizenship that have invaded Ukraine and the minority Russian nationalists with Ukrainian citizenship.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:29:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You usually do a better job of posting trollish... (8+ / 0-)

        ...comments in my posts! Are you having an off day?

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:31:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Feel free to point out the parts of my comment (2+ / 0-)

          that are not factual.

          I rarely comment in or read your diaries, btw.  I think you have me confused with someone else.

          Thanks for clarifying that you think that factual comments that you don't like are "trollish", though.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:41:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  40% is not an insignificant minority. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, Sandino, fran1, ChadmanFL

        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

        by Azazello on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:39:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They may have "invaded" Ukraine 200 years ago (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Azazello, native, Sandino, ChadmanFL

        They started moving there in the late 16th Century.

        The history of Ukraine and Russia is extremely complex.  It reached its peak complexity during WW II.  What we have now is a reverberation of this past.

        Believe you me, I don't do propaganda.  Whatever I say is a product of my own research.

        Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

        by Shockwave on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:07:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, well here's a poll from April that you might (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shockwave

          want to add to your research:

          http://www.iri.org/...

          It's pretty obvious that only a small minority of Eastern Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians wanted Russian military action in Ukraine.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:26:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The International Republican Institute... (5+ / 0-)

            ...is not an organization I trust.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            IRI controversially was helping organize Haitian workers and farmers in Haiti prior to the 2004 Haitian coup d'état,[5] organized conservative political parties in Poland...
            However, the majority of its board, staff and consultants are drawn from the Republican Party.

            Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

            by Shockwave on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 07:29:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's Good for John McCain is it's Chairman. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Shockwave, Sandino, ChadmanFL
            •  Now you're reminding me of the people who (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BvueDem

              wouldn't trust polls by reputable polling outfits because Daily Kos paid for them.

              I guess that's what happens when people are too invested in their narrative and don't want to examine information that collides with it....

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 08:03:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Invested in narrative? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, ChadmanFL

                You are clueless about me.

                I have no narrative. But I'm starting to think you do.

                Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

                by Shockwave on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 08:06:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you disregard a Gallup poll because it was (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem

                  done for the IRI?

                  Would you disregard a Pew poll because it was done for Daily Kos, as well?

                  "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                  by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 08:15:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Polls are just polls (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    native, Sandino, ChadmanFL

                    As they say "there are lies, damned lies and statistics".  I used to teach advanced sadistics.

                    You have to take polls with a grain of salt.  Specially any poll sponsored by John McCain.  (I actually joined the McCain campaign in the 2000 primary because I was concerned about  W).  

                    IMO based on what I have read, about 20% of the people in all Ukraine support the idea of eastern Ukraine joining Russia.  A minority in Ukraine but not in Eastern Ukraine.  It's like what happened in Iraq.  Maliki sidelined the Sunnis after he took over and we ended up with ISIS.  After the Orange Revolution the pro-Western government did not try to  come up with a rapprochement with the pro-Russian minority and they eventually revolted.  

                    Look, I think Putin is a corrupt a#$ole but he is there.  The new Ukranian President, Petro Poroshenko,  is also corrupt according to the US Ambassador;

                    In 2006, John Herbst, US Ambassador to Ukraine, described Poroshenko as a "disgraced oligarch."[93] Later that same year Sheila Gwaltney, Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy in Ukraine, said that "Poroshenko was tainted by credible corruption allegations."[93]
                    The best thing we can do is stay away.

                    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

                    by Shockwave on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 08:49:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Polls are just polls", yet they are usually (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      charlatan

                      pretty damn accurate when done by reputable polling organizations.

                      I sure hope you never taught "sadistics".  ;)

                      Please tell me why you think that the people who support joining Russia in Eastern Ukraine constitute a majority, even though ethnic Russians constitute a minority of the population in Eastern Ukraine and all polling done has shown that to be false?

                      Since you don't accept that Gallup poll, maybe you should read this Pew Research Poll from May, where 70% of Eastern Ukrainians and 58% of Ukrainian native Russian speakers said they wanted Ukraine to remain united, while only 18% and 27% said they wanted to allow regions to secede :

                      http://www.pewglobal.org/...

                      And no, it is not like what happened in Iraq.  Lots of people in the Ukrainian Govt. are native Russian speakers and ethnic Russians, and the majority of people voted for Poroshenko in the first round of an election, which is actually pretty amazing and shows a strong Ukrainian will to remain united, as that rarely happens in the first round of elections anywhere.

                      Meanwhile, the unelected leaders of the "separatists" in Luhansk and Donetsk are virtually all Russian citizens with ties to Russian ultranationalist, imperialist, and fascist organizations and/or the Russian Govt.

                      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                      by Lawrence on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 04:04:17 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Here is another poll funded by Voice of America... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...and conducted by Gallup and published in RT;

                        East, west Ukraine at odds over country’s future – Gallup poll

                        Of course there are other polls too;

                        http://dif.org.ua/...

                        And here is a CNN poll which supports what I said about 20% of Ukrainians siding with Russia;

                        http://www.cnn.com/...

                        Look, I would love nothing more than world peace and I have no empathy for Russia or Putin but they are a reality.  There is nothing we can do militarily or via the CIA.

                        If you look at the map with a chess player hat on the key geography is the Sea of Azov.  Russia wants 100% control.  This is long term strategic for them.

                        What are your sources for the separatist leadership ideology?

                        Sadistics is what my students called it.

                        Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

                        by Shockwave on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 04:02:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  you're right that the history is complex (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shockwave

          and there are parts of western ukraine that are more Polish or Romanian or Hungarian than anything else. But this is not about ethnicity. You have to just look at the Soviet-era rhetoric in Russian media now, and the way they're treating the celebrities who dare to disagree, to know all there is to know about who to support and who to oppose.

      •  Well, except for the (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Azazello, native, Sandino

        fact that people numbered in the 6 figures are leaving the east part of Ukraine for Russia. [and I've heard a similar amount has gone to the west of Ukraine, too.]

        It was the east's declaration of independence from Ukraine that caused Ukraine to start military action.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:21:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it was the storming of govt. buildings (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charlatan, wu ming, ChadmanFL

          and police buildings by irregular Russian units armed with Kalashnikovs, rpg's, anti-tank guided missiles, and manpads, the abduction, torture and murder of Ukrainian citizens by those very same Russian irregulars, and the shooting of Ukrainian police sent to Slovyansk that forced Ukraine to send in the military.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:20:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  812,000 Ukrainians fled to Russia (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        native, Sandino, fran1, ChadmanFL

        according to the UN.
          Only 200,000 fled to western Ukraine.

         People in eastern Ukraine are voting with their feet.

        "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

        by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 07:26:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are repeating Russian propaganda (0+ / 0-)

          again.

          A larger number of Ukrainians are arriving in Russia under the visa-free regime. The Russian authorities say around 814,000 Ukrainians have entered Russia since the start of the year. This figure includes people who have applied for refugee/temporary asylum and other residence options.
          http://reliefweb.int/...

          You are going along with the Russian media's manipulative narrative that every Ukrainian who entered Russia is a refugee, which is preposterous.  Not every Ukrainian entering Russia is a refugee.  That should be obvious even to the blind, since the number who have applied for refugee status or temporary asylum stands at 121,000:

          According to the Federal Migration Service, more than 121,000 Ukrainians have applied for refugee status or temporary asylum since January 1.
          Meanwhile:
          Most of the displaced – 94 per cent – are from eastern Ukraine and are remaining in the Donetsk, Kharkiv and Kyiv regions. UNHCR believes the actual number of people displaced is higher as many are staying with families and friends and choose not to register with the authorities.
          Yes, they are indeed voting with their feet.  Not the way you think they are, however.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 05:19:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL

            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

            by gjohnsit on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 08:25:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Go directly to the source, dude: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charlatan
              A larger number of Ukrainians are arriving in Russia under the visa-free regime. The Russian authorities say around 814,000 Ukrainians have entered Russia since the start of the year. This figure includes people who have applied for refugee/temporary asylum and other residence options.
              http://www.unhcr.org/...

              And put your thinking cap on.

              Not every Ukrainian who has entered Russia since Jan. 1st of this year is a refugee.

              The fact of the matter is that none of this would be happening if Putin had not invaded Ukraine.

              Meanwhile, as you throw your support towards that illegal invasion, Ukrainian soldiers and civilians are dying in their own country and Russian soldiers and irregulars are dying in a country they invaded.

              Did you support the invasion of Iraq, as well?

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 03:38:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I actually go the other way (5+ / 0-)

      The West would be more than happy to see Russia bankrupt itself with a very expensive Ukraine occupation.

      Putin's not that dumb. He won't invade in force without a real provocation like, say, Western bombers blasting Russian armor columns in a staging area on Federation soil.

      He won't do such a thing unless he has no choice. The West, glad to say, will never give him that pretense. And knowing this, I think (as I say elsewhere) that Europe and America are thumbing their noses at Putin.

      The only problem with what amounts to geopolitical kindergarten politics is the chance for miscalculation - something THINKING they have the boundaries of the argument locked down when they just don't.

      Because if I recall my history that's how World War ONE started up. It didn't have to go down...but it did. No one benefited from that fight but everyone talked themselves into believing that thanks to all their alliances, they had their bets covered.

      So off to the trenches they went. Big mistake.

  •  Jesus Christ. (11+ / 0-)

    Just... Why?!!!! Why? Why? Why?

  •  Around last winter, the conventional wisdom was (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, KJG52, PatriciaVa, native, charlatan

    that the inevitable one had done a flawless job at the State Dept.  No one would dispute that but I meekly suggested that a variety of festering problems around the globe didn't reflect well.

    To be fair, no one can predict the future and no one should be blamed for what others do.

    The Republicans have a very loud and persistent marching band that appears at the first hint of trouble anywhere. More than a few of its members moonlight as reporters on the White House Press Corps.

    I think the object is a warning to Democrats in general. If you run, expect relentless punishment. If you win, you'll wish you didn't.

  •  P.S. - Your text in header font that says, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, virginislandsguy

    "exercises in West Ukraine" doesn't sound correct to me.

    I believe the exercises are planned for a location near Ukraine's western border in Poland.

    •  Well, I didn't want to take any liberties with... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mookins, native, Sandino, ChadmanFL

      ...the story. It's breaking news, etc., etc. And, it is the headline over at Reuters...until they change it.

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:28:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You may be right. I see a story in the Telegraph (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobswern

        quoting the UK Foreign Minister who gave a speech at the European Parliament today. However, the text of the speech says nothing about military exercises in Ukraine. And there's a big NATO Summit scheduled for later in this week where this would probably be hammered out and decided.

        The Telegraph goes on to quote a Defense Ministry spokesman:

        “Similar to our participation last year, a small troop of Light Dragoons are expected to participate in Exercise Rapid Trident, a routine and small-scale international exercise, in Ukraine this month.”

        When I search the web for other instances of that quote, it shows up nowhere except the Telegraph.

        The European Parliament's newshub would be buzzing if exercises were planned but I see no word there in the yammering about all sorts of other stuff.

        This is why I keep my comments to a minimum now about Russia and Ukraine. Too much is reported without being true.

        This is just light conversation, by the way. Sometimes people attach more significance to DK comments than they deserve.

        The European Council just elected a new president, Donald Tusk of Poland, and there was chatter a couple of days ago about his hawkish nature vs Russia. The  European Council isn't the same thing as the Council of the European Union or the European Commission but I think they all issued another round of statements "to strongly condemn the illegal annexation of Crimea" once again, for good measure.

        If military exercises are held in Ukraine, I have to wonder about the participation of the French.  Will they misunderstand and think that they're attending a presentation ceremony for their hélicoptère-carrier?

        •  There have been NATO (0+ / 0-)

          exercises going on for months now in border countries to Russia with out much mentioning in the Western media. There is only once in while a comment about it in some stories like when repeately civilen air traffic was disrupted by NATO radar or something like it. Otherwise crickets, but there are exercises going on and there has been talk about the Ukrainian exercise repeatedly - but somehow the Western media does not comment on it, like many other things concerning Ukrainia.

          Read the European view at the European Tribune

          by fran1 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:19:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  the exercises are held in Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

        see my comment below
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  the exercises are indeed held in Ukraine (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mark Lippman, fran1, Lawrence

      They are held in Yavoriv, which is inside Ukraine.

      http://www.eur.army.mil/...

      http://www.eur.army.mil/...

      •  Thank you. That's interesting to know. If there (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence

        were exercises over a year ago, before the Maidan protest demonstrations began, they may be part of an annual routine. That's not the same thing as an escalating crisis.
        I appreciate the links and I'll use them to see what I can learn.

        •  they've done these exercises for 8 or 9 years (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mark Lippman, Lawrence

          I think…

          Here's an article about the 2011 exercises, and it mentions that they'd already been held for several years prior:

          http://www.eur.army.mil/...

          These exercises are not in any way a response to events in Ukraine over the past year.

          I gather there's some concern that they might be provocative in the current climate, but (a) they weren't regarded as especially provocative in years past, and (b) holding them as scheduled sends no message, while canceling them would send some kind of vague message open to various interpretations.

          •  Ukraine is one of the countries that has (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence, RationalThoughtProcess

            participated as part of ISAF in Afghanistan for at least 6 years now. A small number is still there with others from 48 countries as the exit date approaches. Ongoing coordination and interoperability is on the agenda so these exercises don't surprise me.

            By the way, Russia, too, was supplying attack helicopters to the Afghan National Security Forces the US and its partners were training. It wasn't a humanitarian donation. Those helicopters had to be bought and paid for.

            It's funny how military exercises in western Ukraine were no big deal a year ago. To people who don't know, the same exercises could look like risky provocation this year.

            I'm not for aggression or war. Everyone has a right to defend themselves. I practice pacifism and I believe it's easier to think and see clearly when one isn't agitated.

            Thank you again for the info.

        •  Yes, (0+ / 0-)

          but since last year the situation has changed - and even if they have been planed a year ago, now in the current situation they look like a provocation - and I think it is dangerous - even if only 1000 man are involved, so much could happen "accidentially".

          Read the European view at the European Tribune

          by fran1 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:21:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Our comments here won't do anything to make (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fran1

            that part of the world safer or more peaceful.

            In this neck of the woods, people are suffering a lot of needless anxiety because they get only part of a story. (I'm referring to commercial media, not the diarist.)

            I've started writing about Russia long ago but my opinions aren't as final and definite as others who react immediately to everything they hear. Come to find out that the UK paper, the Telegraph, forgot to say that the British have been sending their Light Dragoons to Ukraine every year for a number of years. I've learned to make non-commercial sources, like the one provided by the user upthread, my primary sources of news information.

            Russia's leaders know that military exercises have been a yearly routine and they know nobody even noticed them in the past. They can read the Telegraph and notice how the public in the West can be easily agitated and they can decide to follow suit if they see fit. People have a choice to participate and be manipulated, or not.

            My views don't conform to the usual molds and that seems to irritate people, so I apologize if I've irritated you. I can keep my mouth shut very easily, if you'd like.

            •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

              if I gave the impression to be irritated, I was just voicing my opinion that in the last month in that Region a lot has changed and as just also how the exercises can be perceived. I often agree with you - and I guess we can both agree that it is a difficult situation and that there is a lot of fog and questions that need answering. At least for me.

              Read the European view at the European Tribune

              by fran1 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 03:03:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Ukraine is a child of chaos and disintegration... (8+ / 0-)

    to believe that the Russian Federation is going to surrender its 300 year old hold on the Donetsk basin and the Crimea is wishful thinking. The only reason there hasn't been a move like Russia is making now, prior to this point, is that Ukraine and Russia were carefully rationalizing and harmonizing domestic and foreign policy to avoid conflict. NATO and the US have been pushing against Russia since the break up of the Soviet Union, what really surprises me is that Russia didn't push back harder and sooner.

    Finally finding an ultra-nationalist party and person to strive for power in Ukraine has been the NATO-US wet dream, well Neocon hawks now you have your wish. We haven't had a general European war that developed into a global conflict in 70 years.  I guess we just forgot what that's like and need a refresher war.

    The stupidity of US/NATO policy in this situation is monumental, I hope someone can pull the emergency brake on this train to hell or Global Warming will become the least of our problems...  

    "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

    by KJG52 on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 04:58:03 PM PDT

    •  Given the West's complete lack of urgency (5+ / 0-)

      in this entire crisis...such as it qualifies...I don't think Putin's going to get much of a fight even if he takes over all of Ukraine.

      By the way I don't think he intends to attempt such a thing, not because he fears the West (he honestly doesn't) but rather he fears what a prolonged occupation of a large, populous neighbor will do to Russia's finances.

      Money, not bombs, deters Russia right now. He might have all the reasons he wants to invade but he simply cannot afford to do so.

      The West knows this and what you see as baiting Russia is probably 100% so: Russia can't afford to take the bait but it can't afford to do nothing at all.

      In turn, the West can't let incursions go without SOME response ...but dares not respond in kind. So, exercises in the West.

      I imagine this strange not-war between Russia and Europe, will drag on for quite some time...

      •  I hope your analysis is correct... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cskendrick, bobswern

        "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

        by KJG52 on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:01:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This sounds familiar (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobswern, native, Sandino
        The West knows this and what you see as baiting Russia is probably 100% so: Russia can't afford to take the bait but it can't afford to do nothing at all.
        Wasn't this how we got them to invade Afghanistan back in the day?

        You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

        by Johnny Q on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:31:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Russia has had decades to game out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          native, Sandino

          Counter Colour Coup tactics and NATO incursions.

          All Russia will do is give the Novarussians all the weapons and aid they need to secure Novarussia, ( with plausible deniability),

          While leaving the Western Ukraine to the tender mercies of a Ukrainian Winter and the IMF.

          By spring, there will probably have been at least two more Colour Coups in Kiev.

          •  And by the same token (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            native

            The West will provide $1-$10 billion to each secessionist movement - all 20-ish of them - in the Russian Federation.

            With plausible deniability of course...because if this not-war is ever openly acknowledged it goes to World War III.

            •  Well then, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              native, Sandino

              We will have to get cracking on inventing some new Government NonGovernment Organizations to pass on the money and train the terrorists,

              Because the Russians have banned a bunch of the ones we usually use and the FSB has rolled up or penetrated the others.

              In the late fall, curious about the curious actions of a Ukrainian education NGO, and it's "activities", it did some social media mining, and discovered some further curious links and activities.

              I posted the info to a Ukraine Expat site, as part of a conversation we were having, and a day later, got an email from a guy asking for my research. The "guy" claimed to be a Ukrainian education researcher, but instead, his ISP was a Russian Government site in Moscow.

              •  I'm just not seeing this scenario where (0+ / 0-)

                Russia can afford a war with Ukraine alone, never mind the West.

                And the West can afford to LET Russia 'win' itself into complete collapse.

                •  Russia is not at "war" with the Ukraine. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  native, Sandino, fran1

                  The NovaRussians are anti Kiev Ukrainians, augmented with non-Ukrainian volunteers,

                  Armed initially from SBU/Police/Berkuit arsenals they seized in the Ukraine.

                  As the war went on, they gained armour and artillery abandoned by the Ukrainian Army, and seized from Cold War arsenals.

                  A few months ago, they started getting old inventory, and donations, from the Military Surplus Store in Sevastopol, (plausible deniability).

                  Since the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine became one of the largest illegal arms suppliers in the world, by selling off Cold War stockpiles on the black market.

                  Take a gander at this place,

                  http://defensetech.org/...

                  While the tanks here look trashed, in reality, it's the backlot of an "active" tank factory, where they used to, before the war, rebuild and upgrade about one tank a month, for export. Most of the tanks there, with a change of fluids, and a new battery, are good to go.

                  For Russia, aiding the Novarussians is just chump change, and for that, they get to deliver a potent example to the Satelite States, the economic, political and military costs, of not treading a balls f'ing act between Russian interests, and US interests.

        •  It's the Briar Patch tactic. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          "You really don't want to go in there." - Untrustworthy source

          "Yeah, right." - Distrusting actor, who proceeds into said briar patch, with predictable results.

    •  WWIII coming up. nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KJG52, bobswern, Sandino

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:24:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like a very bad idea. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, ChadmanFL

    I preach the church without Christ, where the lame don't walk, the blind don't see and what's dead stays that way! Hazel Motes in "Wise Blood" (Flannery O'Connor)

    by chalatenango on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:05:26 PM PDT

  •  Whatever happened to.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, Johnny Q

    Don't do stupid shit?

    LaEscapee: "I'm a Saltine American."

    by psychodrew on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 05:30:47 PM PDT

  •  Reg the president's remark about [no] miltary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobswern, lostinamerica

    solution, his admin also talked about a "reset" with Russia - way back when.  Just saying.....

    "The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out”. - George Carlin

    by Funkygal on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 06:05:57 PM PDT

  •  An interesting letter to Chancellor Merkel. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, Sandino, fran1
    We trust that your advisers have kept you informed regarding the crisis in Ukraine from the beginning of 2014, and how the possibility that Ukraine would become a member of NATO is anathema to the Kremlin. According to a Feb. 1, 2008 cable (published by WikiLeaks) from the U.S. embassy in Moscow to Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, U.S. Ambassador William Burns was called in by Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who explained Russia’s strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine.

    Lavrov warned pointedly of “fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.” Burns gave his cable the unusual title, “NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA’S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES,” and sent it off to Washington with IMMEDIATE precedence. Two months later, at their summit in Bucharest NATO leaders issued a formal declaration that “Georgia and Ukraine will be in NATO.”

    On Aug. 29, Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk used his Facebook page to claim that, with the approval of Parliament that he has requested, the path to NATO membership is open. Yatsenyuk, of course, was Washington’s favorite pick to become prime minister after the Feb. 22 coup d’etat in Kiev.

    “Yats is the guy,” said Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland a few weeks before the coup, in an intercepted telephone conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. You may recall that this is the same conversation in which Nuland said, “Fuck the EU.”

    http://consortiumnews.com/...

    Seems like Russia is saying "nyet." But the letter also explains how the evidence of Russian involvement in The Ukraine is shoddy, on the level of the Iraq WMD intelligence.

    And who wrote this letter, you ask?

    For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

    William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

    Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

    David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

    Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

    Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

    Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)

    Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

    Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 08:39:31 PM PDT

  •  Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, Sandino, bobswern

    are two names that come to mind. Sadly, I think the western propaganda on Ukraine is worse than the claims of Saddam's WMDs or his relationship with Al Qaeda. But apparently, Americans are eager to swallow this sort of tripe.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue Sep 02, 2014 at 09:24:34 PM PDT

  •  Btw. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandino, HairyTrueMan, bobswern

    In many comment threads on German newssites this book "The Grand Chessboard
    American Primacy And It's Geostrategic Imperatives
    Zbigniew Brzezinski (1997)" is being mentioned, especially the following section:

    “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.”

    “However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine, with its 52 million people and major resources as well as access to the Black Sea, Russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, spanning Europe and Asia.”

    Many readers see the Ukrainian crisis/war as part of the US goal of weakening Russia and gaining control over that area.

    Read the European view at the European Tribune

    by fran1 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:50:58 AM PDT

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