I caught this
snippet of conversation earlier this evening between Anderson Cooper and the feisty Col. David Hackworth on CNN.
Hackworth, who helped break the prisoner abuse story and has some very interesting sources in the military, isn't buying today's Defense Dept. spin that Abu Ghraib was a local aberration without any direction from the Pentagon, and says this thing is going to get bigger and worse.
Among other things, he points out that Taguba's report is specifically limited to an investigation of the Military Police and doesn't explore the role of the intelligence services (he calls this an "old dodge" on the part of the Army).
More interestingly, though, he claims to have inside sources who say that the prisoner abuse was not only widely known in the Pentagon, but that it was "organized and planned" by the top brass, even including the making of training films at Abu Ghraib that were sent back for use at the intelligence school. If that's true, and we find those training films, this thing could really go thermonuclear.
Here's the transcript...
COOPER:
Well, a systematic failure in leadership. That's what Major General Antonio Taguba said led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. But does that failure lead all the way up to the Pentagon.
My next guest thinks so. David Hackworth is a retired U.S. Army colonel, the author several books. A legend. We appreciate him being on the program. Thanks for being with us.
COL. DAVID HACKWORTH (RET.), U.S. ARMY: My pleasure.
COOPER: You think -- Taguba basically said this doesn't go above brigade level. But I was only looking at the military police side of this. You think the can of worms may be on the military intelligence side and that investigation is still on going.
HACKWORTH: It's definitely there. And I think his charter to just look at the MP side, was the kind of the old dodge game on the part of the army. We hope this will make it go away. But bottom line is, for example, just before I came on the show, I got a report from a military intelligence colonel, a guy that really is in the know, and he said that this system of abuse was organized, planned for, the top generals knew about it. The commanding general out there of military intelligence, General Fast knew about it, probably General Sanchez. And it probably went right up the line to the Pentagon.
COOPER: But let's just play devil's advocate. Today Taguba said Sanchez put out orders about what are the established guidelines, and these people down low weren't following those orders.
You don't buy that?
HACKWORTH: No, I don't. And the colonel also said that it was a program designed to instruct the military police by the military intelligence folks. And there was this thing that you mentioned earlier, who was in command?
You know, you can only have one captain of a ship. You can't have two. And if you and I were running that prison, look, buddy, Anderson are you running it or am I running it?
We'd be on the phone to Sanchez and say who's in charge here.
COOPER: Taguba said he found no evidence of actual paper orders saying military intelligence was in charge.
HACKWORTH: But he just looked at the military police side. I think once you dig in, and according to my source today, a very reliable source, he alleges that General Fast was very much involved in this. Even training films were made, and sent back to the intelligence school to be used for training. And that both the MPs and the military intelligence folks were told to ignore the Geneva Convention. It didn't count. So you can bet your boots there's a whole bunch more going to come out on this, and it's going to go all the way to the Pentagon.