During my time of being a member of the Daily Kos community, I have learned the fundamental difference between progressives and conservatives: when looking at a problem such as BP or immigration or LGBT rights or the economy, conservatives complain about the problem, yet offer no solutions. Progressives, on the other hand, do offer solutions. We offer empathy towards all where conservatives only care about themselves. Progressives have discussions using facts and statistics; conservatives use opinion and conjecture. We progress. They do the exact opposite.
I have often mentioned the conversations I have had on Facebook with a conservative acquaintance of mine. Actually, calling him a "conservative" is taking it lightly. He is a paying member of Wingnuttia. We went to high school together and that is where the similarities ended. He and I recently had a conversation about immigration that needs to be shared. It was obvious to me that such a conversation was not going to end either peacefully or in agreement. I was also not trying to prove that I was correct. I had questions. I would have thought that wingnuts, in their beliefs that they know what is best for this country and Americans, would have solutions. Yet I never got an answer. I don't think I should be surprised.
The conversation started with J’s post about Hilda Solis supposedly supporting illegal immigration and her saying, “You have the right to be paid fairly whether documented or not.” Another acquaintance of mine (“M”) from back home joined in this conversation.
Me: So when are we going to start punishing the businesses that hire illegals?
J: Sooner rather than later hopefully. They don't deserve to come over here to be exploited, but they don't deserve to be here at all. Put huge fines and federal offenses for people that knowingly hire illegals on the ballot and it has my vote.
M: If you're illegal,you shouldn't have ANY rights.Get legal or go back to your country! Plain and simple.
Me: M, do you know what would happen to the local economies in this country if they stopped working? How many Americans do you know who would be willing to go out into the farms all across this country in 100 degrees heat and get paid by the bushel?
Me: J, it's nice to kow you and I don't disagree on everything. Businesses are fined per infraction, not per person they have illegally hired. Of course, our crappy economy has been a great deterrance for illegals not coming to our country as much as they have in the past.
M: If i didn't have a job,i'd do what it takes.Not stay home on my lazy ass with my hand out.I once had a job working at farmex right along side the "illegals".It paid minimum wage,but i earned what i got and had a sense of pride doing so. I don't want to get off on a tangent,but the welfare and unemployment in this country needs to be reformed.People taking "free" money from the government should do something in return.Work in fields,community service,or something.Nothing in life should be free!
Me: These people you speak of that suppossedly are taking something for nothing are actually Americans, not the illegals who ARE busting their ass in the summer heat.
Working community service is a nice idea, but many of those jobs are actually non-paying. Define "something" when the unemployment is this high and the jobs that are out there are either temp jobs or jobs that offer no benefits.
So how would you reform such things? What requirements would you suggest be in place for a person to receive welfare and/or unemployment benefits? Would these programs be tied to the Cost of Living Index? And if so, would you look at the poverty level based on what the IRS considers poor or what each county considers poor? For example, here in Wake County, the poverty level for a family of four is about $45,000. Who would regulate these programs and how would those programs be paid for? Or are you suggesting that by "reform" you mean scrapping welfare and unemployment benefits all together because why should the government help someone who can't help themselves?
Better yet, how about we go one step further and stop handing out subsidies to the agriculture industries in the states? We would hate to give hand-outs to companies that can't be competitive on their own in our free-market economy.
M: I realize i was talking about americans and that i got off topic.I also know that community service is non-paying.I have no problem with helping people in a time of need.I was suggesting a way to keep dishonest people from taking advantage of the system.That would be to make them earn their government check.They could do things like community service and work in fields to help farmers after we deport the illegals.
Me: There is a superb biography about Thomas Jefferson called "American Sphinx" by Joseph Ellis. In 1824, Jefferson "calculated that it would take $900,000,000 to free and then deport the 1.5 million slaves in the United States."
I bring this up to refute your talking point on the act to "deport the illegals." In 1824, using Jefferson's figures as a guide, it would have cost $600 per slave to deport them. In 2009 figures, that equals $15,300. We would also need to deport many more illegals than the slaves of 1824. Let's use the estimate that we hear on TV a lot: 15,000,000 illegals in this country.
Once again, adjusting for inflation and using Jefferson's figures, it would cost $15,300 per illegal to deport them from this country. Multiply that by the 15 million illegals in this country, and it would cost $229.5 BILLION dollars to deport the illegals from this country. Of course then there is the 14th Amendment to worry about. Sure, the parents may be illegal, but if the child was born in this country, they have every single right to live in this country like you do.
Where would we get that money from? I thought the argument from many Americans is that when our debt is this high, we should cut spending. And who coordinates such an effort? is it state by state or a collaboration between the states and the federal government?
Until then, I fully expect you to tell every 50+ year-old former IBM worker that he is expected to be awake at sunrise tomorrow (it's going to be 115 with the heat index in Raleigh) to go work in the fields to offset their unemployment checks. Cheers!
J: Lots of words. What's your bottom line? If people need work visas to work here legally I have no problem with that so long as they pay income taxes on their earnings and are not granted amnesty. Get in line and you will eventually gain citizenship. If you're here without a work visa you get a trip home at the taxpayers expense. I love the liberal argument that illegals are here picking lettuce. In reality most of them have labor jobs in restaurants, construction, etc. In states that allow it they are going to school and college and working in offices. If welfare wasn't the handout sham that it is according to the bureau of labor statistics 14% of legal citizens should be doing those jobs. I really don't care who the person is, if you're not willing to work you don't deserve to eat. Most people when they get hungry enough will work. The rest will starve I guess unless they are proven to genuinely qualify for aid.
Bottom line I would like to know is do you approve of the department of labor using your tax dollars for enforcing labor laws for illegals? In a constitutional scenario they wouldn't have to because the illegal would be back in their home country before the ink dried on Hilda Solis paperwork.
Me: I like using lots of words, especially to refute common talking points with no concept or solution behind them. I didn't see you disputing the idea that it would take money this country doesn't have to round up and deport the illegals from this country. Where would that money come from?
It's funny to me that you think you know how liberals think. I think I would surprise you. That being said, illegals should do one of two things: do what is necessary to become a citizen or get out. Yet you and I have the luxury of being born in this country, so citizenship was a birthright.
Have you ever looked at what it would take for you to become a citizen of another country, if you either wanted to move or because of work. I have simply because I could work in London if I wanted to go that route with work. Going through myraid governmental agencies is a labyrinth of policy and law. And that's me going to a country speaking the language.
I don't approve of my tax dollars going to the Iraq and Afghan wars. I don't approve of my tax dollars going to agricultural subsidies. But labor laws are in place to protect the businesses as much as the employers. Until we punish the businesses, whether it is in industries such as reastuarnts or construction, those businesses will continue to hire illegals instead of Americans. Yet in this country with its free-market capitalism, highest profits are the zenith of success. And they get high profits by not paying their workers what is required by law. But hey, when they are breaking the law by hiring illegals, why would they care about the laws of the federal government.
Me: So once again, J, give me a solution. Where would the money come from to deport 15,000,000 illegals. What programs would you cut? Would it be a state issue or one for the federal government?
This welfare you speak of, one must be a citizen to gain welfare or unemployment. Seems to me your problem is with Americans, not illegals.
So in essence, the illegals are willing to work, since they are doing so. And it is the Americans who are having their hand out. You are arguing two different points.
Illegals, no matter if they are from Mexico, Latin America, or even Europe usually have one thing in common: religion. There should be a way for churches to get involved, from a community standpoint, not theological. Allow community centers to distribute information on becoming a citizen. Have them get work visas. Have ESL teachers educate immigrants on speaking the language and becoming an active member on society. Have illegals get in line for achieving citizenship. Give them the tools to become a citizen. If then they chose not to, then we deport them.
Bottom line, fine the hell out of those businesses that hire illegals in the first place. Let's not make illegals the scapegoats for unfair business practices.
Sorry, I gave you a lot of words to read again.
M: I think you should move to london.
Me: Hey, M, thanks for that great answer to the question of how this country should pay to deport the 15,000,000 illegals from this country. Your ideas just blew me away. You should run for office.
So how many former tech workers did you get to work at McDonalds, Perdue, or deliver food for Meals on Wheels today?
Since you gave me such a great answer to funding the deportation of illegals from this country, I have a question for you: why should a business such as McDonalds or Wal-Mart hire a 50-year-old laid off tech worker who will ask for more money to help his family instead of a 17-year-old who will work for much cheaper?
Why would you want to spend $229.5 billion deporting illegals when such money could go to veterans who defend this country yet come back to no jobs, or the textile worker from North Carolina who lost her job because PillowTex wanted to send the jobs overseas to make mattresses in China because the consumer whined about paying too much for comfort, or better health care for the 9/11 fire and police departments that have people who have horrible health conditions due to them doing their job?
Thank you, M, for teaching me so much. It has been greatly appreciated. John Galt would be so proud of you.
M: We could just print the money.Isn't that what we have been doing?I don't understand how it's gonna cost $15,300 to send each person home.It's not like the 1800's.We don't have to charter ships and pay crews to sail them half way around the world.Why not just give them a plane ticket for about $500.They can have free soda,pretzels and peanuts along the way.
Me: Not coming up with valid solutions to our problems ruffles my feathers. I thought I completely explained how I came to that amount of $15,300. Even if you issued plane tickets, say in the amount of $500 per person, that would still equal $7.5 billion. So still, the question begs to be asked: where does that money come from?
You want to print money? That will actually devalue our currency. Imagine what that would do to our inflation. It would cost MORE money to purchase everyday goods.
I found this article recently that I thought might be of interest to you. It discusses exactly what you have been discussing about getting everyday Americans to work in the agriculture industry. I think it would be a great way of lessening our unemployment rates in this country. You can also go to: www.takeourjobs.org
M: Lighten up a little bit.About printing money,i was being facetious.I read that article yesterday.It would be nice if unemployed americans would rise to the challenge.
Me: I guess everything else you wrote was your attempt at being sarcastic as well. I was simply hoping you would answer the simple question of how we would pay for the deportation of illegals, but you decided to verbally dodge the question as poorly as Foreman did when he lost to Ali.
J: No they get deported then get in line. You don't get here without going through the proper channels. If you sneak across the border you get sent home period. Also if you think they don't qualify and receive welfare you must be living on another planet. And YES my I have a HUGE problem with most Americans on welfare as well as illegals.
"I don't approve of my tax dollars going to the Iraq and Afghan wars. I don't approve of my tax dollars going to agricultural subsidies." I agree with this
"There should be a way for churches to get involved, from a community standpoint, not theological". I half way agree with you but people who really want to be citizens will put forth the effort on their own like they have for 300 years.
"Bottom line, fine the hell out of those businesses that hire illegals in the first place. Let's not make illegals the scapegoats for unfair business practices." Best point you made in the whole thread, but I would add federal offense in there and make them liable criminally. As for the illegals, Scapegoat or not they get sent home.
I would suggest a simple national consumption tax instead of the current tax system. That would at least take care of the tax dodging end of it and make it less palatable to sneak in here. Dude, seriously. It's far cheaper to pay for them to be deported than to have them here and drawing benefits and dodging taxes. Every modern administration has had no problem spending money, especially this one. With the programs you support I seriously doubt that you care about spending so long as the spending fits your political agenda. If we can afford to burn 100 billion "saving" GM and Chrysler, Burn at least a trillion in a couple of sham wars and subsequent nation building efforts, burn trillions on a healthcare system that has failed everywhere it was tried, flush a trillion dollars down the toilet in a political payoff "stimulus package" we can certainly afford this. While we're at it we need to throw a few more billions towards a gigantic wall.
Me: A gigantic wall? Then they build a taller ladder.
The sham wars started way before Obama got into office. Bush did say that he was going after Hussein because "he tried to kill my daddy." And if we truly wanted bin Laden, he could have got him. But having Emmanuel Goldstein alive is neccesary for Big Brother to keep power amongst the proles.
So you are for more spending because this administration and others have done it in the past? Where is that fiscal conservation you herald? Of course, you do champion someone such as Reagan who actually TRIPLED the National Debt. You don't care if the debt of this country goes down. "Screw the social programs that assist Americans in actual need, just as long as America is protected against the Boogymen that we actually helped create." That's what you're saying.
I wanted specifics. Supposedly, you are a fiscal conservative, so I was expecting you to give me a laundry list of programs you would cut in order to pay for the deportation of illegals without adding to the National Debt. Yet you deflect. You never answered the question. You obfuscated. I was hoping to have an intellectual conversation about such an important topic that needs to be discussed.
But now I realize the truth that was hidden for so long: you don't care about the solutions because finding solutions are difficult. You fake your concern by only discussing the problem. You throw blame on the usual suspects such as Obama, yet don't lay blame to the politics of someone such as Reagan and the first Bush for putting this country in its present condition. Gee, I wonder why those weapons that Osama and his cohorts use look so familiar?!
You are not proactive, simply reactive.
You develop blanket statements about liberals when you have no idea how we think. You believe we liberals are all group-think, when that couldn't be further from the truth. You abhor sheep, yet you do nothing to separate yourself from the conservative sheep. You simply think you can label me as "liberal" in an effort to define me. Instead of ever asking me what I believe, you simply assume you know how I believe because it is easier to label me as a "liberal" instead of having a thoughtful, mature conversation with me.
You may read a lot, but I don't think you ever try to put yourself into the shoes of that single mother with a child, trying to make ends meet. Instead of trying to assist that mother, you would blame her for having a child to begin with.
When discussing the recent healthcare debates, I told you about my wife's now-deceased mother spending her last days arguing to her health insurance company about what they should cover concerning the treatment of the cancer that was destroying her body. You proclaimed that since my wife's mother couldn't afford the cancer treatment herself, the federal government shouldn't be relied upon to assist her in paying for those cancer drugs.
You simply don't care about any American who doesn't share your viewpoints. I know that now. I was blind for so long, trying to see the good in you. Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and reminding myself that everyone is enititled to his or her own opinion.
I’m tired of the hypocrisy. I'm done.