I hope to begin a group on DK4 called the Demosthenes V. Locke Debating Society.
You can certainly click over and examine the group to find out more, but in essence I hope to lay out an issue and debate it from either side. Points will be awarded by the strength of the argument with double points awarded if you can argue both sides.
I saw a video that I believe would be an interesting test of the concept.
It contains harsh profanity and a good old fashioned parental whipping, so I’ll place it below the fold.
A situation
Young Black men fall pray to a gangster lifestyle that very often leads them either to the graveyard or to prison. Apparently the young man in the video above took to his Facebook page to glorify a “gangster” lifestyle that included all the murder and death and disrespect associated with the most negative aspects. His uncle found his Facebook page and administered a belt whipping while taping the boy and demanding he tell the world he was not a gangster, and was lying when he said hard things about murder and gangbanging. He then obviously had the young man post this message to his Facebook community.
Demosthenes:
This child although obviously on the wrong path is a sovereign human being. Violence done to him even in the name of a good corrective action can never be endorsed. How much better would have been for the actions taken by the Uncle to have been non violent then the child could have had the lessons without the scars.
Locke:
Spare the rod and spoil the child, and in this instance sparing the rod might get the child killed. Young men need to have certain points driven home to them from a physical nature in order to perfectly impress the seriousness of their actions. Thank God this young man had a parent that cared enough about him to do it, and I can only hope that the lesson takes.
Update 5:30 Pacific time.
Thanks to all who participated and well done to those who were able to defend both Demosthenes and Locke. I'm going to step away from the diary for awhile to allow anyone else to jump in who would like to and to allow those who would like to help judge to weigh in with their opinions.
If anyone is curious what the general public appears to think by at least the Youtube reaction that I have sampled...It's Locke. Locke by a mile if one were to take up rates of the videos as approval and downgrades as disapproval it's running about 98% Locke. If you have a strong or personal reaction to the argument of Demosthenes I definitely wouldn't read the comments if I were you.
Update 6:45 AM Pacific Time.
Winner Locke: Crazy Moderate
The notion that physical punishment should not have been used because it begets violence, and is abusive, and thus non-violent forms of punishment or action should have been used, is erroneous.
To impress a powerful lesson on someone who is that old, you are unlikely to have the privilege of succeeding with a wholly positive message. A lesson that needs to be that far reaching, and unforgettable is not a candidate for sitting down and having a nice chat. Some sort of negative lesson will be used, a negative reinforcement if you will. Demosthenes says without the scars, what kind of scars, physical? If another lesson was used they would be different scars, psychological, emotional scars, which can be much more lasting than physical ones.
Such a lesson is important because what they need is a shock, they are in a delusional reality that could cause harm to themselves and others. He could yell instead, but many people are conditioned to ignore yelling, and even so the invisible scars would remain. This lesson reminds the young man that the life he is thinking of is not a good idea, gives him very little recourse to live such a life (because he has been called out as not being a true gangster) and shows that while tough, his uncle cares about him. And that his uncle will not allow him to be a gangster, there is always that intervention and that memory there to remind him not to go astray again.
Physical means of teaching, and discipline are not always a good idea, and are indeed sometimes abusive. However, one must look at the context of the situation to judge whether it was justified in a particular case.
Winner Demosthenes: hester
The only thing the child will learn from his
beating is abusive in nature. While being whipped/beaten/etc. nothing but rage ensues in the being of the abused person. The physiological reaction is fight or flight. Since he cannot flee, or fight back his body still experiences the chemical changes that go along with those responses. They are not good.
In time of real danger, the responses can be life-saving, but nonetheless should be avoided. The essential issue is fear. All that the uncle can do by whipping him is instilling fear (and then rage & hatred).
The only excuse ever for violence is self-defense or defense of someone close by who is attacked. Violence breeds violence and teaches nothing b/c it instills fear and rage.
Overall winner for excellent answers for Locke and Demosthenes: TIE! Mortifyd and Hilbertsubspace.
Once again many thanks to all who participated.