Last night during the Democratic Debate held in Flint, MI, Bernie Sanders shut Hillary Clinton down by saying, “Excuse me, I’m talking.”
It was an uncomfortable moment, to be sure. I personally grit my teeth when he said it. I know The Young Turks (whose livestream I was watching at the time) all groaned. Nobody liked that moment. I’m sure Hillary didn’t, and I’m equally certain that it caused Bernie no pleasure, either.
Here’s the moment, in case you missed it:
For those who can’t watch video, here’s a short transcript (cuts in at the end of Hillary’s answer, bold/emphasis mine):
Hillary Clinton: [T]he money that ended up saving the auto industry.
(Cheers and applause)
Bernie Sanders: Oh, [trails off]
Hillary Clinton: I think that is a pretty big difference.
Bernie Sanders: Well, I tell you. If you were talking about the Wall Street bailout, where some of your friends destroyed this economy —
Hillary Clinton: You know —
Bernie Sanders: Pretty much — Excuse me, I’m talking.
Anderson Cooper: Let him [unclear, run?].
(Cheering/Jeering from the crowd.)
That being said, after some introspection, my initial feelings of unease abated, for several reasons:
1. It was a moderated debate, during Sanders’ time to talk.
2. Anderson Cooper clearly also stepped in at nearly the same time Sanders did to cut Clinton off.
Today, having seen the cry of “sexism!” which went up after this moment, I wanted to take a second to register some strong objections to that characterization of the exchange. This is going to take a little time, as it should, so follow me if you would below the fold.
First, I want to give a little bit of my background as I think it lends context to my objections. I am a woman (despite the boy baby picture I have as my avatar!), and I have also faced systemic sexism before in my time. I know what it is like to have health decisions mansplained to me by male doctors. I was raped when I was ten years old, and sexually harassed and assaulted at work. (I reported the assault and was harassed in retaliation.) My biggest pet peeve is when a woman’s claims of sexism are blithely swept under the rug because she doesn’t have video proof of exchanges, “concrete evidence” of what occurred to verify her story.
That is why this narrative makes me angry.
This exchange, however uncomfortable it may have been, was not sexism, and calling it sexism makes it harder for women with actual grievances get their complaints taken seriously. It cheapens the claim and makes it harder for serious problems to be addressed in the future. When someone can point to a mild discomfort caused by shutting down interruption during a moderated debate and call it sexism, other people see “this is the worth of claims of sexism” and act accordingly.
This is why it wasn’t sexism:
Transcript for those without the ability to watch the media.
Barack Obama: Now, let’s talk about Ronald Reagan. What you just repeated here today is patent —
(Hillary Clinton moves to speak)
(Barack Obama holds up a hand)
Barack Obama: Wait, wait.
Hillary Clinton: I did not, I did not —
Barack Obama: Hillary, you’re supposed — you just spoke for two minutes.
Hillary Clinton: (speaking over Obama) I did not say anything about Ronald Reagan. You said two things. You talk —
Barack Obama: You just spoke —
Hillary Clinton: (continuing to speak over Obama) You talked about admiring Ronald Reagan and the ideas of the Republicans. I didn’t talk about —
Barack Obama: Hillary, we just had the tape. You just said that I complemented the Republican ideas.
Go back and watch the #ExcuseMe moment from Bernie Sanders, then give this video a rewatch:
Here’s a transcript, again emphasis mine, for those who can’t play video at this moment:
Note: During Clinton's speech, Black Lives Matter Activist Ashley Williams silently steps forward and unfurls a banner that reads: “We have to bring them to heel.” #WhichHillary — Hillary Clinton.
Hillary Clinton: We’re making sure that South Carolina became the first state with body cameras. There’s more work to be done, but gotta lay down these markers, you gotta build toward common sense gun reform, criminal justice reform, and all the like. So, I think we’ve got a very — (noticing Ashley Williams) We have somebody saying here: (reading) “We have to bring them to heel.”
Ashley Williams: (interrupting) We want you to apologize for mass incarceration.
Hillary Clinton: Okay, we’ll talk about that.
Ashley Williams: I’m not a super-predator, Hillary Clinton —
Hillary Clinton: (interrupting) Okay, we’ll talk about it.
Ashley Williams: Will you apologize to black people for mass incarceration?
Hillary Clinton: Well, can I talk, and maybe you can listen to what I have to say? Okay, fine. Thank you very much.
Ashley Williams was ejected from the fundraiser.
How did Bernie Sanders react to a similar, though much more public, interruption?
One final transcript:
Bernie Sanders: Thank you, Seattle, for being one of the most progressive cities in the United States of America!
(Applause, BLM activists Marissa Johnson and Mara Jacqueline Willaford take to the stage, saying that they would like the opportunity to speak.)
Marissa Johnson: We want an opportunity all the way.
Bernie Sanders: Okay. Okay. Speak to him.
Marissa Johnson: Get him in check or we’re shutting this event down. Now.
Mara Jacqueline Willaford: If you do not listen to her, your event will be shut down, right now.
Bernie Sanders: (inaudible, points behind him)
(Bernie Sanders cedes the microphone.)
Is the the behavior of someone who habitually interrupts women and stops them from speaking? Clearly not; in this instance, he was interrupted at one of his campaign events, by someone he didn’t know, and he ceded the floor to them after making a very quick judgement call in the moment.
In his #ExcuseMe moment, he was in a debate setting and his opponent, a very formidable woman whose job it is to defend and take care of herself during the debate, attempted to talk over his allotted time to speak. He firmly told her that this wasn’t going to happen, and was immediately backed by the moderator.
Did it make me feel good?
No, it was uncomfortable.
Was he totally and completely justified?
Yes, he was.
Is this a pattern that Clinton has shown to indulge in from time to time?
Yes, it is.
Is Sanders’ behavior likewise part of a pattern of interrupting and running roughshod over women?
No, it isn’t.
I rest my case.