In my ongoing research into the FU Kids at reddit, here is a conversation I am having with a libertarian.
Topic: Let's just come out and admit it: America has no liberal, progressive party. In any other country, the Democrats would be considered right-wing. (politics.reddit.com)
dredgedskeleton wrote:
in any other country the democrats would be considered right wing? how ignorant are you? in the entire islamic world (a very large world, mind you) our REPUBLICANS would be considered liberal extremists. this statement is complete idiocy. also, keep in mind that the original "liberal" movement was initiated by none other than adam smith. "classical liberalism" from an economic standpoint is what you would today consider "conservative"; yet it remains the most "liberal" economic policy by strict definition of the word.
(more after the fold...)
direct link to conversation:
http://politics.reddit.com/...
duus replied:
I agree, that the original poster ignored the islamic world, where the democrats would not be considered right-wing, I don't think. But I don't think you're right--that the Republicans would be considered liberal extremists. What position of the republican party would be left-wing in Islam, that a perl script which replaces "God" with "Allah," "Jesus" with "Mohammed", and "Islamo" with "Amero" wouldn't take care of? I think with those minor changes, the republican party would be a fairly centrist party in most of Islam.
dredgedskeleton replied:
republicans, generally as a party (save a few lunatics), do not declare that gays are going to hell and should die. they do not demand that women wear veils in public. they do not consider people, Olbermann for instance, who try to sway them from their beliefs "infidels"; and do not wish death upon them a a result. republicans do not follow a creed that states that they will be given great gifts in a magical world of milk and honey if they kill thousands of people in the name of their god. republicans are quite liberal in comparison to the conservative monsters of Islamic fascism.
duus (2 children) [+]
I don't agree with your characterization "save a few lunatics." The republican party, as a distribution of people's opinions on matters such as those you state, has significant overlap with Islamic "fascists." Certainly, no requirement that a veil is worn, but there is agreement that women don't control their own bodies and are not responsible human beings who are capable of moral action (for example, few pro-life "abortion is murder" people recommend punishing the woman, because she is not a moral agent.) I'm not sure if there are significant numbers of Republicans who believe they will get rewards in a magical world for killing people in the name of their God, but I do see them supporting the killing of many people, and whose to say what's going on inside their heads? Republicans sure aren't that supportive of gay rights, and, although you claim that Republicans do not declare gays are going to hell and should die, I'm fairly confident that those who do say that vote Republican. Republicans, as a party, support vigilant monitoring of what people say to each other, looking for those who threaten the fatherland and themselves. The Republican leadership directly ascribes the reasons they do things to divine motivation. A significant community in the GOP is interested in setting up a theocracy (i.e. "We are a Christian nation!")
I'll concede, maybe I need a few more lines in my perl script, but I don't think it's too far off.
dredgedskeleton (1 child) [+]
Having an issue with abortion is just one facet of suppressing women (and let's remember many women are republicans and do not support abortion). The Islamic world has many, many, misogynistic traits that are horrible and extremely detrimental to women's rights. The leader of our country is a republican, right? I work directly under three women. Women have a huge amount of power in this country, with a republican in office. Look at Iran, women have no power and not to mention, very few rights. Who cares if the people who want to kill gays vote republican? the republicans can't control that, if the neo-nazi's could they'd vote for someone more extreme. The actual political parties of Islamic-fundamentalist countries preach that gays are sinners and going to hell. They support extreme actions against the people who disobey the creeds of the Koran. There is literally no comparison between the two ideologies. The United States republican party is liberal in comparison to Islamic fundamentalism. It's 100% evident and obvious. I don't see what the "Patriot Act" has anything to do with Conservatives? Don't you remember that sort of government ideal came out of a leftist ideology? That's a communist idea, and the republicans feared such things years ago. There's an overlap of today's conservative and what the party actually stands for. Fear has changed things. However, in a historic context the Patriot Act resembles a leftist ideal, not right.
duus (0 children) [+]
I don't see what the "Patriot Act" has anything to do with Conservatives? Don't you remember that sort of government ideal came out of a leftist ideology? That's a communist idea, and the republicans feared such things years ago. There's an overlap of today's conservative and what the party actually stands for. Fear has changed things. However, in a historic context the Patriot Act resembles a leftist ideal, not right.
I agree about the history. I've heard from various places that the Neocons have their roots in Trotskyism. Although I don't actually know if that's true in some direct way, it certainly seems to me that the philosophy of the Neocons is descended from Trotsky: the vanguard party, the permanent revolution.
I don't know if you'd agree with that or not, of course, but I think it substantively agrees with your point about the history.
So: if your point is about historical roots, it seems we are in agreement, although perhaps save some details.
However, if your point is about the modern Republican party, I beg to differ. The fact of the matter is that neocons are Republicans, and they dominate the Republican party. Currently, perhaps, the GOP is going through some turmoil, but that's fairly recent. A year ago this month we'd still be seeing lock-step messaging. Three years ago this month that messaging would have been written by Karl Rove. The fact of the matter is the team that brought us the Patriot Act, regardless of the historical lineage of its totalitarian aims, are part of the GOP, and, until recently, seemed to be ruling it with an iron fist (at least to an outsider like me.)
I realize this is only one point that you are making with this post.
Re: abortion. Indeed, there are pro-choice female republicans, and male ones, too. But if you dismiss the relevance of whether the people who want to kill gays vote republican, then you have to dismiss this evidence as well, I think. They are of the caliber. I am happy to dismiss them both.
I don't know what you mean by "actual political parties preach." We've had the republican president of the united states say that he didn't think atheists should be considered American citizens. (W's father.) It's not part of the official political party platform of the GOP (as far as I know, in any state). That is, of course, a difference--but not a qualitative difference, just a matter of degree. I think it's generally considered that the president serves as a kind of leader of his party, and that what they say is often, i think, legitimately, interpreted as the will of the party in some sense.
Something else to consider:
Over the weekend while watching C-Span we caught an Imam from Oakland who powerfully made the argument that there are more women serving in Iran's parliament then there are women serving in the U.S. Congress. He also made a point that it has been the United States government that has supported some of the most repressive regimes, including the Taliban, in terms of woman's rights. The U.S., he indicated, has a very selective memory when it comes to defending women's rights.
http://www.blackelectorate.com/...
direct link to conversation:
http://politics.reddit.com/...