Please go support Rocky:
http://www.myfoxutah.com/...
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My Mayor and progressive all-around-good-guy, Rocky Anderson, is debating Sean Hannity here in Salt Lake City, Utah in approximately one hour, that's 8:45 mountain standard time.
Rocky is nationally known as one of the most progressive Democratic mayors in the country. He's shown amazing character, eloquence, and bravery in his tenure as mayor in the little blue dot inside a big red state that is Salt Lake City.
This is a live, podium-to-podium debate sponsored by the University of Utah. Hannity can't shut off Rocky's microphone...
The debate is being steamed live by Fox 13 here:
There's a chat client at the site as well, dominated by trolls, I'm afraid.
I've been in communication with the Fox 13 reporter covering the event, and the format is actually a formal debate:
30 mins for opening statements,
back and forth on questions,
questions from the audience,
closing statements.
We'll see how that holds up.
Join us!!!
PS: I might do a little live blogging of this here as it goes down... please post your blow-by-blow comments here as well!!!
Thank Rocky for his involvement: http://www.thankyourockyanderson.org
[Update - 8PM] Pre-event interviews underway. Looks like both of them brought multimedia presentations. Rocky is coming out saying he'll be talking about the total abuse of power by this administration.
[Update - 8:20PM] News is reporting 90% of the attendees are Hannity fans. Not sure if that's accurate. Be very interesting to hear/see the crowd reactions. We are in Utah......
[Update - 8:40PM] Event begins.. Huge amount of boos and cheers for each. Moderator discussing rules and format. Wow.. The moderator has his shit together so far. Sounds like he has a brain.
General questions:
How is the war going,
and how is the president doing?
Rocky with the first statements. Coming out like a traditional orator at first.
Rocky:
"Let's rise above the superficiality, we are all Americans...."
"President is bound by the law..." (the setup)
"We have a system of government with checks and balances, to protect against abuses of power..."
"We believe government officials have an obligation to be honest..."
I think Hannity will come out swaggering. I predict he'll go straight for the ad hominem. Rocky still speaking.
"We as Americans believe in the humane treatment of our enemies..."
Applause...
"President Bush has betrayed all of the American values I've stated."
"No man, especially the president should be above the law..."
"It is imperative to the standing of our nation that Bush be impeached."
Rocky's coming out strong. Directly calling for impeachment.
[Update 8:49PM]
Rocky's rhetoric so far is nothing new so far. He's taking a pretty basic tack. It is impressive that he's standing up there and actually saying it. This is groundbreaking.
He debunks the Iraq - 9/11 fallacy.
He shows the picture of Rummy shaking Saddam's hands... Shocking a few in the crowd no doubt....
He begins going into the SOTU 16 words... educating the crowd.. Interestingly, this is a largely Hannity crowd, so many people here may be hearing this info for the first time...
From applause, I'd say crowd is 70% Hannity, 30% Rocky supporters.
Rocky's voice is getting more relaxed. He's less nervous..
He's taking time to break down the facts with the crowd, talking about the deception around the rationale for the war.
Rocky's going over the 2003 SOTU some more... . aluminium tubes... etc. Standard stuff for kossacks, new for the crowd.. they're listening.....
Note: I work with people out here in Utah. Everyone's oblivious to this information... I don't think the Hannity fans will even be able to absorb this info, and Hannity will hit them with a slew of typical fallacies, it'll resonate, etc... I may be wrong.. we'll see..
[Update 9:00PM]
Bush clip shown: SOTU: "Uranium from Africa......"
Rocky: "President Bush's speech was a terrible fraud, leading us into an illegal and disasterous war..."
Tragic invasion of Iraq is utterly illegal.
"Internationally illegal..."
"Same laws violated as those who were convicted at the Neurenberg trial.."
Basic violation of attacks unless in self-defense..
Costs have been overwhelming..
Iraqi's are worse off than before the war (Crowd boos....)
US war in Iraq has been the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda could have hoped for..
Rocky goes into extraordinary rendition... starts discussing torture issues..
Blatant violation of international law, Geneva convention, etc... Rocky cites specifics of US laws re torture broken, finishes with assertion that Bush must be impeached for these reasons....
He's now starting in on FISA violations.. warrantless wiretapping.. email snooping, etc...
Now starting on Habeas Corpus violations...
He whips out a great quote:
Justice O’Connor wrote for the Court: "We have long since made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the President when it comes to the rights of the Nation’s citizens." In a direct slap at Bush, O’Connor noted, "even the war power [of the President] does not remove constitutional limitations safeguarding essential liberties." O’ Connor echoed a theme she has raised in prior Court decisions, which is particularly relevant today: "It is during our most challenging and uncertain moments that our Nation’s commitment to due process is most severely tested; and it is in those times that we must preserve our commitment at home to the principles for which we fight abroad."
He compares Bush to Nixon... unitary president...
His conclusion in opening statements - We need to impeach because we need to show the world we are better than this, and different than this.
Big applause for Hannity's turn... Crowd is really, really vocal...
[Update - 9:17PM]
Hannity goes straight for the ad hominem, in first 10 seconds. Straight to the insult.
Purple fingers, schools, hospitals (all the contracting projects that never got built...)
Wave the flag, label the crowd liberals..
Invokes fallen soldiers...
Invokes a Pat Tillman type story...
"We must get this issue right, and we must stop the politics"
Hannity invokes Reagan.
Reagan: We are last, best hope for this planet..
Hannity cites partisan politics as a big part of the problem..
Hannity: Rocky is contributing to the toxicity.. Big crowd reaction both sides..
Hannity starts in on the "dissent is unpatriotic" argument - (Note: Many people in Utah agree with this line of reasoning... It's a very red state...)
Hannity cites Kerry's statements about needing to disarm Saddam...
Hannity: "If the dog bites, if the bee stings, if you're feeling sad, it's Bush's fault.."
Liberals are playing a double standard.. Rocky and his ACLU friends.. are undermining what we're trying to accomplish.
Hannity: Does he ever stop to think about his selective moral outrage?
Hannity shows video of Clinton, announcing bombing of Iraq.
Video of Kerry talking about the threat of Saddam -- Gore talking about WMD, Kennedy talking about WMD, all post 9/11 hysteria - If I remember correctly, based upon falsified information provided by the administration...?
Finally, invokes Hillary's statements regarding Iraq WMDs...
Several shots of Hillary contradicting herself..
Guilt by association..
So, the debate is really about the Clintons at this point..
"You part time mayor brought up the issue of WMD..." He's pure ad hominem...
Rolls videos of Kurds killed by chem wpns....... silence...
[Update - 9:37PM]
"Does anyone doubt the connection between Al Qaeda, WMD, Iraq"
Shots of mass graves... Hannity basicall just rolling shots of corpses and mourners... Could be pre or post Iraq at this point..
Cites Churchill -- he being unpopular in his time. Parallel to Bush..
Of course, Germany had invaded Poland at the time he had given his speech...
He invokes 9/11... (as a rationale for invading Iraq)
Hannity's cell phone goes off....
Blame Kerry and Hillary just as well as Bush for our issues, they all agreed to this war.
Straw man attacks against Schumer, Hillary, Reid, etc..
Hannity's basic thrust of argument - The Dems supported the war too. Someone please provide me with a diary on the misinformation the congress received from the administration....
[Update - 9:47PM]
Onto the question period portion of the event..
Format: Rocky gets to ask question of Hannity, and vice versa. 1 minute response.
Rocky goes on with some details about Bush's vacation - Bin Laden determined to strike in the US... He's getting some points in here.. out of structure of debate...
Rocky - Don't you expect from the President upon receiving briefings, that he should have done better?
Hannity - Invokes the Clinton did nothing either defense.. Does an imitation of Clinton.
Both are getting unruly..
Hannity continues citing that Sudan offered Bin Laden to US 5 times.. Let's see if/how Rocky rebuts..
My feed dropped. Ugh.
Hannity talking about his visits to Iraq (Green zone?)
Hannity: Join with us, help our troops win this war? Stop your obsession with President Bush and help these troops win...
Rocky "The best was we can support our troops is to get them home.. I wasn't happy with Kerry, or Clinton, etc..."
Moderator makes some jokes... not treating this with respect..
Hannity continues completely with the ad hominem attacks..
Moderator tells Hannity to go to the point, stop with the personal attacks.
Rocky cites Brent Skowcraft... Criticizing Bush.. To attack Iraq was diverting our efforts in the war against terror...
Hannity continues with the insults... dodges the question... goes COMPLETELY ad hominem...
Hannity falling on tactics.. Dodges the question...
[Update - 10:02PM]
Hannity states again Rocky needs to blame the Dems as well...
Never answers the Skowcroft question.
Hannity states again Rocky needs to blame the Dems again...
Rocky agrees -- congress was completely complicit...
Rocky -- there was a NIE where it was stated there's nothing to the tubes, the cake, etc.. this was provided to congress... interesting... Rocky states that only 6 senators read it.. how could congress have voted for the resolution?!? Go Rocky..
Hannity: You are demanding for impeachment... Biden, Kerry, and Clinton also said this... do you say they should also be removed from office?
Rocky: They should be held accountable.. But Bush time and time again stood up and lied, and continued to lie, and continues to lie.
Hannity: Continues with the insults and the ad hominem attacks...... Hannity brings up Cindy Sheehan... here we go...
[Update - 10:10PM]
Hannity continues with the pot calling the kettle black stuff..
Hannity: Name 5 specific things to do that would keep us safe from terrorism:
Rocky:
- Get out of Iraq, get into Afghanistan...
- Open up basic diplomatic channels with mid east nations / work with the UN more..
Rocky shifts gears.. .
This is a sectarian war -- we're egging them on by being an occupying force..
- Stop kidnapping, torturing, and disappearing people...
4.
5.
Questions from the Audience:
Q: "What does it mean to support our troops"
Hannity: In summary: Those who keep their mouths shut.
Rocky: Getting them out of Iraq. Making sure we utilize our military where it makes sense. Go after Osama! How about some decent benefits and healthcare?
Q: What is success in Iraq?
Rocky: When we had a no-fly zone, UN weapons inspectors had assessed Iraq had no WMD. Cites that they were totally disarmed after the first gulf war.
Hannity: Fuck. My feed went dead for Hannity..
Rocky -- Mentions the oil dependency issue.. .
Q: Who do you like for president in 08?
Rocky: Bill Richardson: Global warming, international law, understands energy
Hannity: Hannity makes a joke -- anyone but Clinton.
Q: What is the greatest threat to American values and way of life?
Hannity: Everything we talked about tonight.. 9/11...... Nuclear technology... That's why we must defeat them now.. we have a moral obligation.. (I assume we can do this by occupying Iraq?)
Rocky: We're going to be facing enemies and terrorists... Not by taking vacations and ignoring intelligence briefings.. .We need to remember what makes us Americans. What are values are.. Cites undermining of our moral values by doing things like torture.. We are becoming like the governments we always wanted to distinguish ourselves... (Good answer..)
Onto closing statements
Hannity: Brave men and women in harm's way.. Hannity thanks the crowd.. I love Salt Lake b/c you're a community of faith, prayer, ... Hannity runs a tape.. Closing with a video of soldiers....
Rocky: Reads closing statements - greatness of our nation has been comprimised. We are occupying a nation that doesn't pose a threat. We've been led into this war by deceit. More resentment builds against US avery day. Kidnapping, historic deficits, listening in on citizens without a warrant, kindapping citizens, this is not who we are or what we believe in. To remain silent is complicity. To end this presidency is the right thing to do - a return to a democratic, constitutional government...
Final word from moderator, thanking the organizers....
Onto local news coverage...
Local anchors: "Entertaining..."
On the ground anchor - Talks about Rocky's lawyerly style, building a case, Hannity as a showman..
[Final Update]
Post debate interviews were pretty balanced in tone, but watching them reinforces my sense that most Americans are badly uninformed or misinformed. One individual stood out, talking about how he was frustrated with Rocky's "putting forth lies as facts".. He went on to talk about how he had friends over there, how we never heard about the good things we're doing, how we're building schools and hospitals and power plants. He also mentioned how now Iraqi women had the right to go to school, unlike previously... the guy was horribly misinformed. I'm going to try to get the below articles over to FOX 13. Who knows, maybe they'll mention them...
Background on Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the Fall of the Saddam Hussein Government
Inspectors Find Rebuilt Projects Crumbling in Iraq
Have a good night, all...