I had a few shots earlier and worked up to gumption to engage Alex Knepper, the American University student of "there's no such thing as date rape" fame. It was about what I expected.
Note: His AIM name is listed on his public Facebook profile (for anyone concerned about privacy issues).
[Wed May 5 2010 08:28:13 PM] lostpainting4: lostpainting4 is online
[Wed May 5 2010 08:28:29 PM] caribdevist: my sister was groped at a bar, but she consented by showing up
[Wed May 5 2010 08:29:27 PM] lostpainting4:
Depends on what kind of groping and what kind of bar, actually.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:29:38 PM] caribdevist: all groping and every bar
[Wed May 5 2010 08:30:52 PM] lostpainting4:
No, that's silly; you can't impose a meta-narrative onto these sorts of questions. If I go to a gay bar and I get my ass squeezed, I can't complain.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:31:24 PM] caribdevist: yes, lord knows that all gays want to do is grab each other's asses, not just go out for a drink to a gay-friendly bar with their buddies
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:18 PM] lostpainting4:
Not mutually exclusive. And a gay bar is not about being "gay-friendly." It's about going there to meet other gay people -- often to try and find love or sex.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:27 PM] lostpainting4:
Also, if having your ass squeezed traumatizes you, you're a pathetic loser.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:44 PM] lostpainting4:
Jesus, are we that much of a nation of pussies? Just brush it off. Christ.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:41 PM] caribdevist: that's totally your call, how people should react to violated.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:48 PM] caribdevist: you get to decide how people react to that
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:50 PM] caribdevist: you personally
[Wed May 5 2010 08:32:58 PM] caribdevist: react to being violated*
[Wed May 5 2010 08:33:33 PM] caribdevist: and yeah, gay bars are about creating a gay-friendly environment. i don't know where you get this notion that gays are just raging pervs looking to fuck everywhere they go
[Wed May 5 2010 08:33:44 PM] lostpainting4:
That's right; I'm an adult and I use my judgment. And I try to hold other people to adult standards. Not being a complete lightweight, for instance. Jesus -- isn't feminism supposed to be about women being strong?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:33:36 PM] caribdevist: oh wait, yes i do
[Wed May 5 2010 08:33:56 PM] lostpainting4:
Raging pervs? Wanting some ass makes you a raging perv?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:34:02 PM] lostpainting4:
Gay men understand sexuality in a way feminists never will.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:34:14 PM] caribdevist: yes, and being strong is about enduring getting assaulted by men
[Wed May 5 2010 08:34:19 PM] caribdevist: cause, fuck, men can't control themselves!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:34:24 PM] caribdevist: and they shouldn't be expected to!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:34:59 PM] lostpainting4:
"Assault." Oh, give me a break. Squeezing someone's ass isn't an assault. Someone call the police! Call the press! -- Chickenshit stuff. Is this what strong women do?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:35:18 PM] caribdevist: no, REAL strong women suck it up. if someone drags 'em out back and rapes it, they walk it off
[Wed May 5 2010 08:35:20 PM] caribdevist: and they should!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:35:37 PM] caribdevist: as for grabbing the ass, hell, being a female with an ass is consent enough
[Wed May 5 2010 08:35:45 PM] caribdevist: wanting to go out for adrink with friends is MEGA consent
[Wed May 5 2010 08:35:50 PM] caribdevist: they're fucking ASKING for it
[Wed May 5 2010 08:37:27 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, give me a break! Stop treating women like sexless little infants. Real feminists like me -- not these "womyn" who have hijacked what it used to stand for up until 1965 -- wanted women to have all of the same risks and responsibilities that men always have. The world you envision is one that simply doesn't exist.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:37:42 PM] lostpainting4:
A world in which we can all sit around and never have our asses squeezed --
[Wed May 5 2010 08:37:34 PM] caribdevist: i know a lot of those man-hating dykes
[Wed May 5 2010 08:37:44 PM] lostpainting4:
Who would even want that world?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:37:59 PM] caribdevist: so, in other words, EVERYONE can be exploited!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:03 PM] caribdevist: er, should be
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:25 PM] lostpainting4:
Exploitation! Hah!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:18 PM] caribdevist: if i'm out on a ffriday night, someone can grope me, whether or not i consent or not
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:30 PM] caribdevist: -or not
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:41 PM] caribdevist: i mean, fuck
[Wed May 5 2010 08:38:56 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, give it a rest, sister! If you're groped and you don't like it, just raise your eyebrows and ignore it.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:02 PM] lostpainting4:
Grow a spine, for Christ's sake!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:00 PM] caribdevist: if i'm dumb enough to piss a gay bar, and some dude grabs my ass, my bad for walking down that street
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:11 PM] lostpainting4:
What is this! Contemporary feminism is just --
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:14 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, women are these fragile little dolls!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:20 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, if someone gropes me, I've been so violated! So exploited!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:21 PM] lostpainting4:
Christ!
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:15 PM] caribdevist: haha
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:31 PM] caribdevist: i'm not sure what brand of feminism holds that women should simply have to endure whatever men car to dish out to them
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:44 PM] lostpainting4:
This is like, the other side of the religious right, okay?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:39:44 PM] caribdevist: some weird misogynist feminism, i guess
[Wed May 5 2010 08:40:20 PM] lostpainting4:
Women are sexless, fragile little dolls -- having their asses groped is a violation and an exploitation of their dignity! -- Oh, stop it! Stop it! Would anyone act that way toward a man who had his ass squeezed by a woman?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:40:40 PM] caribdevist: sexual harassment laws apply equally to men and women, so, yeah, the courts would
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:05 PM] caribdevist: and you can't take ass-groping out of the context of the treatment of women in this country's history
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:16 PM] caribdevist: i mean, you can, but you'd be an idiot and/or a liar ot do so
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:26 PM] lostpainting4:
You mean the history of the world?
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:32 PM] lostpainting4:
"This country" --
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:26 PM] caribdevist: well, we're americans, right
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:31 PM] caribdevist: we're speaking in america
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:43 PM] lostpainting4:
Women are treated better in the West today than in any context in history.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:50 PM] lostpainting4:
No, because I'm not an ahistorical, nationalist idiot.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:46 PM] caribdevist: it would be safe to talk about women's history in the world
[Wed May 5 2010 08:41:54 PM] caribdevist: i justh appen to be talking about america right now
[Wed May 5 2010 08:42:00 PM] caribdevist: but, okay
[Wed May 5 2010 08:42:04 PM] caribdevist: yes, women's treatment in the world
[Wed May 5 2010 08:42:15 PM] caribdevist: and yeah, it's gotten infinitely better here
[Wed May 5 2010 08:42:23 PM] caribdevist: so i guess we can, "dumb bitches, quit crying"
[Wed May 5 2010 08:42:50 PM] lostpainting4:
Certainly. Just as I would say to a man.
At this point, a combination of the absurdity of his position and the Svedka I'd imbibed was making me sick, so I took a little break. Once I'd collected my thoughts, I returned and pursued things a little further (and herein lies the money quote):
[Wed May 5 2010 08:54:53 PM] caribdevist: i would be fucking pissed if i was out and about on a friday night and i got my ass grabbed. not so much for the act itself, but for being told, hey, i'm above you, and it struck my fancy to grope you without your consent, and i may just decide to do other things without your consent
[Wed May ... See More5 2010 08:55:27 PM] caribdevist: now, if you're some place where it's understand by everyone in attendance that you may be groped, like if you held an even called "grope fest 2010" then sure
[Wed May 5 2010 08:55:41 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, chill out, girlfriend! Anyone who gets that fucking pissed over ass-grabbing has an idiotic view of sex and nature.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:55:33 PM] caribdevist: a bar or a frat party are not those fucking places
[Wed May 5 2010 08:55:45 PM] caribdevist: uh, no, this is most decidedly not an issue of sex
[Wed May 5 2010 08:55:49 PM] caribdevist: it's about autonomy
[Wed May 5 2010 08:56:07 PM] lostpainting4:
Oh, stop! Stop! Oh, this is this mindless, robotic droning --
[Wed May 5 2010 08:56:07 PM] caribdevist: i'm a dude, btw
[Wed May 5 2010 08:56:18 PM] lostpainting4:
RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX. IT IS ABOUT POWER. GROPING IS NOT ABOUT SEX. IT"S ABOUT POWER.
[Wed May 5 2010 08:56:26 PM] lostpainting4:
Yes! They are about sex!
Here that, women? Your being groped and/or raped is about sex. Consent doesn't factor into it. You're a prude if you get upset about either one. Certainly, you can't expect NOT to be raped when you go out in public, and if you get upset or angry about either one occurring, you're just a weak woman! Feminism is about STRENGTH, the strength to buck up and move on when you're been violated (which doesn't exist, by the way). Also, gay bars are places where gay men just go to grope and get groped.
There were a few other gems that I don't care to include, something about how poor people are cool with violence in their neighborhoods and they don't turn into "shriveled up pussies" over gang violence. Funny, I thought, people regularly call the cops around here when there's violence. Why are they such crybaby pussies calling the police?
For any of you older folks who are concerned, this is an extreme position amongst my generation. I do perceive that feminism is languishing amongst my peers (almost certainly thanks to the demonization the term has received over the last thirty years), very few people would say, "Oh quit your bitching" to a woman who'd been sexually assaulted, and those who would would be shouted down (see the above link for campus' response). That said, the "blame the victim" attitude is alarmingly prevalent, from what I've experienced. So, I dunno. Pray for us anyway (or upbraid us for being wretched little shits).