I received a Comment on my face book page from a friend I'll call Mary asking me to copy this anti mosque statement and pass it on.
If you think that putting up a mosque 600 ft. from ground zero and having the inauguration on the anniversary of 9/11/11 is immoral, inhumane and a complete lack of respect for the memories of all that perished there on that day, and their survivors, that politicians are doing a grave injustice to the fallen heroes, their families and all the people of New York City, Please copy and paste on your wall
My reply
> Me: Bullsh*t This is wingnut nonsense.
the entire debate after the fold
> Note I've changed the persons names for privacy reasons.
> Mary Ed....I don't know if you're FOR or AGAINST this mosque...please explain?
> Me Although I am not religous I believe in our Constitution and it's 1st amendment. If you believe in America and you believe in Freedom of religon you certainly won't fall for the fearmongering being pushed by a bunch of rightwing bigoted Muslim haters and Political opportunists. There is no Mosque planned near or on ground zero, it's a community center unseeable from the site. This is a Non-issue issue ginned up to pit Americans against each other. As a nation we have more important issues like stopping repuglican efforts to destroy our economy just to get elected. This is why I commented on your posting I don't wish to turm FB into an UN-Friendly place but this Anti American stuff is really ugly You asked I replied.
>Me added this link for discussion
>Mary Actually Ed, I believe in freedom FROM religion for the very reason that it's typically the catalyst for almost every known conflict that pits humans against humans. That said, I think that people should be sensitive to the suffering of others (the thousands of survivors and the families of the slain from 9/11) and that this Muslim center could be located just about anywhere but putting it anywhere near ground zero is just about as insensitive as it gets.
>Me As a dog trainer I was a first responder at GZ so I have very deep feelings about the 9/11 legacy. I respect you point of view but again this is still a NON issue. As an atheist every place of religon is an insult to my sensitivity. Nevertheless Muslims didn't attack us on 9/11 anymore than Buddists attacked us at pearl harbor. So putting a Muslim community center in the vincinity of GZ is no more insentive to the the victims families than the churches already located there. The reality is this is a ginned up issue for political reasons and to me a far worse insult to those who gave their lives on 9/11. We don't need their deaths to be used for political reasons to attack American Muslims and one of our most American of beliefs, Freedom of and FROM Religion. Demagogues pitting usually tolerant Americans against each other for purpose of making political points is the true assault on the memory of Sept 11, 2001
>Me Just an additional thought. You mentioned our need to be senitive to the survivors of 9/11. Well what about our sacred Constitution, and the hundreds of thousands of Americans who fought and died in defense of this sacred document? Our elected officials swear to protect and defend it. The Freedon of religion is it's first amendment. Should we use the deaths of all those who died on 9/11 as a ruse to attack our most sacred of documents? This is what is being proposed by those who are attacking the American Muslim Community center in N.Y. I spent two years in mortal combat ready to shed my life for America and its Constitution this I think is why I am getting so upset at this vicious phony attack on it.
P.S. I don't want you to take my rants as a personal assault, for me this is an intelligent discussion amongst friends.
>Mary Ed - I'm not taking it personally. You are entitled to feel whatever you feel. I agree that the Constitution is no longer worth the paper it's printed on. In my mind, that began quite some time ago.
Tuesday at 2:02pm
>Me The constitution it is what made America great. What I find peculiar is that so many on the right proclaim their love for it then all they do is want to change it. What form of Govt do you thinik is better the our Constitutional form. Why is our constitution worthless?
>Mary Oh, I believe in the Constitutional form of government! I just don't think that any of the politicians do, and they continually try to twist its meaning to achieve their goals. That's all I meant. And since politicians are the ones running this country, it doesn't make our Constitution worth much anymore.
>Me Yea I agree. Imagine they want to take away birth right citizenship! States are talking about ignoring federal laws. Arizona is try to subvert the constitutional admendment leaving immigration inforcement strictly a federal responsibility. Some want to cancel direct voting for Senators and leave it up to the legislatures to pick their Senators. We sure do have a lot of anti Constitutional politicians out there. Even the supreme court is getting in the act and making up laws giving Corporations rights that were once reserved for the people. Your correct it's not the Constitution its politics of the Crazies.
Tuesday at 3:01pm
> Mary That's where we diverge, Ed. I don't believe in the interpretation that you have about birthright citizenship. I believe that if one of your parents is a LEGAL American, then you are too. But if they are merely illegally squatting in our country (I don't care what anyone says...they're squatters), then that child is a citizen of the homeland of its parents. If you lived in Arizona, in one of the border towns, I'm sure you would feel much differently. I'm personally sick and tired of my tax dollars being used for those who don't belong here. And I'm sick and tired of people circumventing the law while others wait their turn. More people are coming to the US than ever before in history, and it's still not enough for the bleeding heart liberals in this country. I say, give us a choice about supporting these people. If you want to, go right ahead and do it! Freedom baby!See More
Tuesday at 3:15pm
>Me Birthright citizenship is absolute and has withstood many challenges over the years and the Supreme court has made that clear. Most of your hard earned tax money is being wasted on unnessary wars, Tax cuts for the supper rich Corporate welfare and Corporate greed and dwarfs any costs immigrants may impose. Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for welfare or federal benefits including SS or medicare even though when they work the pay taxes just like you and me. If every immigrant was sent home today we would have a net loss in tax dollars not a tax gain. It is true we Bleeding heart Liberals do care about the poor after all it's the moral thing to do. But don't let that fool you, we don't spend your tax dollars freely, remember it was a Democrats that gave us the First balanced budget in decades. Most people like yourself are acting on prejudices not the facts or reality. For example the facts are there are fewer immigrants entering via the boarder then ever before, crime in Arizona has been on the decline not increasing for years now. Unfortunately phony news outlets like Fox are busy misleading their viewers. The problems we face today are not "Illegals" but Corporate corruption and greed out sourcing american jobs, etc. If only we can get past the phony strawmen we could focus on overcoming rethuglican obstruction and get some of our real problems solved.
Tuesday at 4:11pm
>Mary We're going to have to agree to disagree, Ed. I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I'm an Independent. I don't base my views on hogwash newscasts. For every "fact" that you state, there's another to refute it.
Tuesday at 4:18pm
>Me As you know I'm a liberal and independents I know are open to both sides thats what makes them independent.The one thing I think we can agree on and that is, We are entitled to our opinions but not our Facts. Please help me understand what those facts are you mention that refute the positions I presented. I believe I have tried to respond to each and every issue you presented to me with real facts thats all. lets see if we can start with things we agree on. Tell me what liberal or Democratic ideas do you agree with me on?
Tuesday at 5:07pm
>Mary I agree that we waste far too much money fighting wars that we shouldn't have begun in the first place - I believe that almost any conflict can be resolved with a cool head. I absolutely hated George Bush...not because he was a Republican, but because he was insufferably stupid. I believe that we shouldn't have bailed out the big corporate slobs who bankrupted millions of people in this country with their games, and almost brought our economy to a grinding halt. I believe in morality, but I also believe that I don't have the right to enter any sovereign nation of my choosing and decide to live there just because I need work - I'd work where I was to change my form of government to better my circumstances. But I also agree that the rich business owners in this country are the responsible people in this because they continue to hire them at slave wages to line their own pockets - that's immoral. Birthright citizenship is NOT guaranteed in the Constitution - it is merely one interpretation of what was written - and in my mind, that is irrefutable. I don't have a problem with immigration, or immigrants. I have a problem with uncontrolled immigration. Period. I believe in the right to bear arms. I think that without that right, the people are at the mercy of their government and that's a slippery slope.
23 hours ago
>Me Great I agree with you 100% on almost all you say. I'm sure I can find some links that will answer our disput one way or another over the Birthright issue. So correct me if I'm wrong but the one thing that we see as a critical issue is Corporatism. I just posted a link on my page where to join an effort to demand congress take steps to curb the Corporate take over of our Govt. So many of our problems would be solved if we can get a handle on Business and its power to corrupt. You can bet on the fact that poor people from South America wouldn't risk their lives if Corporations didn't entice them into a modern day version of slave labor. I'll post the link I mentioned on you page if you want.See More
21 hours ago
Note:This is where things get interesting: Enter BILLY>
>Billy Hi Ed, I've never met you but I must compliment you on one wonderful display of Rhetoric Bullshit and Un American commentary about a trumped up plea for "Religious Freedom" being used to "Cloak" a monument to be erected to honor all of the Islamic Terrorist that saw fit to "KILL IN COLD BLOOD" innocent American Civilians, in a chicken shit sneak attack worse than the Japs at Pearl Harbor which was at least a Military Installation and not an everyday workplace. You should blow that smoke up Mr. Oblabba's Ass and Harry and Nancy's as well.
Any one that can try to pass this "Badge of Honor" for the Muslims off as an infringement on "Freedom of Religion" is full of shit, so if the shoe fits wear it.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am mine, you just got mine, and by the way, I hate every single one of those radical terrorist cowards that use suicide bombers and sneak attacks on innocent men, women and children only because they believe them to be infidels.
This poor berated religion that you stand up for, that preaches to kill people must really be a worthwhile cause for you, so go get em, help preach their poison and make the world a better place.
Me, I'll just go on being whatever you want to call me , like I could give a shit,and I feel real comfortable in my skin, how you doing????
Oh yeah, I'm sure this is really the only place they can build this, and the money for the project is fully disclosed, and the Iman that is in charge is nothing but the finest example of upstanding character.
Good luck with your campaign.
>BillyHey Mary, I forgot to mention,,, I kinda agree with you. lol
>Mary Hey Billy I see that you don't like Kool Aid either and like me, you just won't drink it! Great post btw LOL!
>Me Liz - Behind the thin veil of Independent lies the dark heart of bigotry and hate. At least in Billy boy's words their is no pretense as to what kind of Sick hate filled Bigot he is. I was mistaken to engage in what I thought would be a reasoned conversation. No hard feelings just disappointment after all you asked me for my views.
End of Debate
> Commentary
I made this dairy because I found it interesting in my effort to have a real discussion over the Mosque issue I found myself talking to a wall of anti reason and facts. None of my factual arguments were ever directly refuted. Instead I was confronted with Opinions, feelings and Beliefs. I was told my facts could be refuted with facts but they were never offered. It became clear to me using facts and reason in this kind of discussion was a total waste. I am at a loss as to how to have a persuasive debate.
I also learned something about those who call themselves Independents. As in this case I think many "Independents" are not really independent at all they are repuglicans at heart and this is just a way for them to put up a facade to say they are above party politics.