This is the first working diary for the group Inherent Human Rights. We are suggesting our first concrete project—collection and organization of data proving that torture is an ineffectual tool for obtaining intelligence. This is will be the main thrust of the diary. In addition, we open the floor to a general discussion of our purpose, scope, and methods.
IHR editor ferallike suggested this project in her first comment in our group. It grabbed me as a concrete thing we can do to combat the evil of torture. Within our group, we have the skill to develop a database which will be available to anyone, anywhere in the world, who seeks to refute the ill-founded justifications of those who would justify torture. It is sad that what is obvious to those with eyes to see and with hearts to feel—that every human deserves to be treated with as much dignity as self-defense will allow—needs to be proven scientifically to some powerful leaders who are more self-serving, callous, or cynical.
A sense of frustration and disempowerment is affecting a lot of us. Here is a chance to go beyond talking about crimes, beyond reporting and discussing. This is a chance to make an impact. If enough people step forward with a sense of purpose, we can do something here that stands a chance of making a difference. At the very minimum, we can lay down a record which put crimes against humanity in their proper perspective, and irrefutably so.
Here are excerpts from the discussion between ferallike and me:
F: When being interviewed by Bill Maher in April of 09, former CIA case officer, Robert Baer, made that point very clear: torture doesn't work. He further emphasized that none of the then intel/ FBI directors, DNI Dennis Blair, DCI Michael Hayden, FBI Dir Robert Mueller along with several others could say, "torture has saved a single life."
Real Time: Bob Baer on Waterboarding- It's Torture
G: [My transcription of excerpts]
I've spent the last thirty years inside prisons, watching torture, watching that it doesn't work. It never works. We get bad information.... So what we've done is, we've embarrassed this country for no purpose at all....You get the answers you want with torture... It's indefensible. Really, truly, it is indefensible.... The Israelis will tell you they've stop torturing, because it doesn't work. It messes up their investigations. It ruins the reputation of a country and demoralizes the populace, I mean, including Americans.... All those jihad prisoners and Hamas prisoners in jail were caught because of police work, good police work.
[My transcription of excerpts]
The intelligence is drivel. It leads to false leads. People will say anything if the pain is bad enough. It's useless. And I reiterate, it's useless.
F: A possible proposal for yours and the group's consideration: Maybe a sub project of this group could be gathering in one place of the names and statements of American and foreign intelligence, investigatory, criminal justice experts as well as psychologists, psychiatrists and sociologists regarding studies and findings on the ineffectual use of torture as a means to stop crime and international terror.
G: Practically speaking, how would we organize this? We could run an occasional diary to report information already gathered, to discuss, and to plan the next step in gathering this. How do we keep the information? Is there a way to have an on-going public document on this site, in which people can add info as they find it? Or would one of us need to keep the document ourselves, to post periodically?
F: Send this out and let's see who has ideas on how to make this work. It may be that someone, who's far more computer literate than I, could create a PDF file so we can gather this information in one place.
If we make this a group project would also help to make sure that any and all possible sources of input and expertise could be utilized. One thing I can think of that would be very helpful is there may be people who can read documents printed in other languages that could be added to this document. About three years ago, I asked a friend of ours who's a retired Case Officer, who I'll call "A", if he knew of any research on torture being ineffectual and he sent me something in Hebrew that was done by an Israeli Human Rights group. I don't have access to it now … But I'm pretty sure I can get it again … "A" said that there was documentation in this report from interviews of former IDF officers who reported they never got any usable intel from torture….
F: There are a few things that need to be discussed as far as how we compile this data to support our argument. For example: we need to establish criteria for recognizing what is valid data such that we build a fully concrete thesis/ argument. As a researcher in psychology, I have a pretty good eye for being able to recognize unsupported hypotheses and useless data. But this topic goes into legal issues and has also had serious impacts on diplomatic relationships and international public policy where we might could use some input from people who have expertise in these areas if possible.
Establishing a baseline of what is relevant and supportive to our thesis is critical if we are to build a solidly useful document on the ineffectiveness of torture to start changing some minds and collecting support. This is not to say that data such as circumstantial evidence or personal accounts that might not meet the criteria could not be considered and used. But rather how we present these as an addition to supporting our thesis/ argument may need to be carefully watched to make sure we are not accused of breaching any of a number of logical fallacies.
Can we have a focused discussion tonight, please, concerning how best to approach this project, who wants to participate, how to organize it. Ferallike has too many commitments to take the lead on this, but she is available. Is there someone who wants to be project leader? Do we need a project leader? What is the best medium for discussion?
As an aside, perhaps a diary is not the best means of conducting this discussion. I find the message system cumbersome, however, so here we are trying this out to see if we can organize ourselves this way.
Two more things to offer in comments. Your best shot at our "working definition of inherent human rights". [h/t jfromga] And suggestions for our blog roll.
[I still am unable to edit diaries once they are published. I also am unable to post comments which are not responses to comments. In case that comes up, I want people to be aware of that.]