So I had a political exchange with a good, intelligent, decent-guy kind of friend a few days ago that's been on my mind and I'm hoping you can help me try to figure something out. I hope this isn't too serious a topic for a Friday night, but I'm usually offline (Casa Brillig unplugs the Internets every Friday evening, tonight being - obviously - an exception) and don't know the cultural traditions 'round here :-). Follow me below the dingledoodle squigglie dKosagnocchi dividerthingie fold after a word from our sponsor...
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So the conversation I had started when I posted Bill Maher's status update to my wall. The one which said "Shit-U-not, Republicans voting to repeal Obamacare for the 37th time! This after another week of Benghazi. Why not just beat an actual dead horse?"
First reply I got was from a friend who self-identifies as a "moderate independent" and who also has generally met my "we don't have to agree but we do have to be civil to each other in order for you to stay on my Politics List" criteria. He said "I say keep having votes until this unconstitutional pile of crap is gone. Obamacare is just plain bad medicine."
You know me. I value discussion, but there needs to be facts to discuss. So I asked for them: "Tell me which part of the ACA is bad medicine. Because, as someone living under the MA-ACA aka Romneycare, my direct experience is pretty good. To all who may comment in this thread: keep discussion civil & factbased."
What I got back in reply surprised me. Over the course of several comments, he said (I'm paraphrasing so as NOT to share an entire conversation):
It is ALL bad. There's nothing good about it.
They will not touch the pharmaceutical companies, the lawyers, insurance companies, or the cost to get medical degrees. Instead they force Americans to purchase commercial insurance products which is unconstitutional. They force religious organizations to pay for insurance that goes against their doctrine which blatantly violates separation of church and state...
(He then digressed into how liberals scream if "some poor kid dares to pray in school")
He ended with, and this is a direct quote: Anybody who supports Obamacare is simply blinded by partisan politics.
I tried, m'friends, I really did. I replied with "Absolutely nothing you just wrote addresses my request for a factbased, specific issue. You've given me a kneejerk "all politics is bad" screed that undermines what you've told me you want, which is genuine discussion. Give me that, and we can talk. What you wrote upthread is talking point regurgitation."
And the last he said was " nothing i said was not factual. You asked why i thought it was bad medicine, and I told you. I know it doesn't agree with your world view, and that makes it "talking point regurgitation" but ... fact is Obamacare does nothing to fix the actual problem and drives the costs up even higher than they already are. That's all I'm going to say on this." (emphasis mine)
And it was. ::sigh::
I know that in Base 10, 2+2=4 and if you want to disagree or debate that, you're either an idiot or you're trying to be divisive.
I know that individuals don't see colors the same... I see my palette differently than would a colorblind person. But there's a REASON. So the fact my friend can't see the subtle or not-so-subtle shades in a particular image doesn't mean he's an idiot or trying to be divisive. His retinal cone cells don't work like mine.
But I look at what I consider to be FACTS in so many things political, and realize... to my friend, it's me who's "spouting talking points" and mangling information to suit my own worldview. How do we reconcile this?
So the point of my diary tonight isn't to go over the truths, lies and fallacies of the Affordable Care Act. Or to bash my friend or anyone who in good faith disagrees with what we here at the site or elsewhere believe. Instead, it's to ask this: "How do two well-meaning people look at something and come to diametrically opposed opinions of the validity thereof." FWIW, I believe this extends to archetypes of the left and right, but I'm willing to debate that point :-)
The followup question is "How did the definition of 'fact' get so partisan that two smart people can't agree on what a fact is?"
I'm genuinely serious about this. I truly believe we can't break through the partisan mess that's taken residence in American political discourse until we remember how to talk to each other. Not CongressCritter to RegularVotingPerson, but two regular ordinary caring intelligent people at the coffee shop having a discussion about how to manage to have the best life possible for themselves, their families, communities and world.
Help me out, please.
From Dave in Northridge:
In smileycreek's's New Day diary, koosah caps off a thread about Erick Erickson's reaction to the Boy Scouts' decision to allow gay scouts, sort of, brilliantly.
From indycam:
Look who's back or look at the back of who, from kos' Ask Me Anything diary.
From FindingMyVoice:
Gooserock has a great rejoinder to wingnut bleatings on the expectation that people should take care of other people, not government. Fincher wants to destroy SNAP but he and his family rake in big $$$s in farm subsidies. Oh, and we don't need government?? Better check your highway bridges, guys, 'cause another interstate bridge collapsed last night in Washington State. I know I'll be calling my neighbor across the street to see if he can do anything about that darn Pulaski Skyway up in north Jersey, 'cause I'm at my wits end with all those rivets & steel beams & such.
From Justin Doolittle's diary, and to give credit where credit is due milkbone suggested the nomination first and I seconded. Hope I did all of this right!!
Diarist's note: you did it exactly right :)
From Yours Truly, brillig:
mdmslle asked if kos could be nominated for Top Comments. The answer is yes, from his Ask Me Anything diary.
My thoughts on hearing that FOX's Andrea Tantaros wants her listeners to go punch Obama voters in the face were quite similar to hazzcon's.
Top Mojo for yesterday, May 23rd, first comments and tip jars excluded. Thank you
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FAQing Top Mojo.
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6) That was my face 43 years ago by never forget 2000 — 90
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10) Not to mention, hell on the by Lisa Lockwood — 78
11) You should've added the part where... by bobswern — 71
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21) Step 1 must be to repeal the entire sequester. by flitedocnm — 55
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32) The GOP truly hopes for another economic collapse by Reggid — 46
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