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Tuesday July 28, 1914
Chicago, Illinois - Agnes Nestor's Testimony before the Walsh Commission, Part II
, also known as the Walsh Commission. Miss Nestor is the president of the Chicago branch of the Women's Trade Union League, as well as the president of the International Glove Workers' Union. Today we offer Part II of her testimony before the Commission. Tomorrow we will publish the testimony of Miss Elizabeth Malony, financial secretary and business agent of the Chicago Waitresses Union.
[TESTIMONY OF MISS AGNES NESTOR-PART II]
Chairman Walsh. Mr, O'Connell would like to ask you some questions.
Commissioner O'Connell. Has your league made some study and investigation as to the
conditions under which women are employed in the stores in Chicago?
Miss Nestor. Yes; some.
Commissioner O'Connell. What are the conditions under which women are employed in
the stores in Chicago, their hours and labor, and the conditions of employment?
Miss Nestor. Well, up to the time of the passage of the women's 10-hour law, they
worked almost any hours. Of course, the stores down town, with the exception of
four or five of the large stores, they work overtime during the Christmas holidays—in
fact, all the stores worked overtime any time in the year. The doors were not open,
the curtains were drawn, and they might be fixing the stores and all of that, but, of
course, since the 10-hour law passed they can't work more than 10 hours. But in the
outlying districts the stores were at one time open four nights in the week, and then
it was cut down to three nights, and that was when they had a temporary
organization, and when the law was passed they had to reduce their hours during the
day and arrange their shifts so as not to exceed 10 hours and now they work only
two nights a week.
Comm O'Connell: What are the wages of the girls in the stores?
Miss Nestor. Well, I understand a number of the stores raised the minimum wage and
have fixed as a minimum $8 a week since last year. That was the time the senate
committee went through and made an investigation in this State and called before it
several of the different industries, and at that time there was quite an agitation about
the wage, and as a result a great many of them, I believe, raised the wages—that is,
raised the minimum. But, I believe, the others remain the same, although there are a
number of stores that still pay less than that amount.
Commissioner O'Connell. There is no organization among store clerks at all?
Miss Nestor. There is no organization among the store girls at all; they oppose the
organization.
Commissioner O'Connell. Suppose a lady clerk is discharged for a real or imaginary
cause for which she feels she has been unjustly discharged, what can she do toward
having her grievance adjusted or heard, in one of the large stores in the city?
Miss Nestor. She has no redress unless she tries to take it up individually. I think we all
know that to try to do that in a large concern, especially of the size of the
department stores, is quite a futile thing.
Commissioner O'Connell. You believe if a girl was discharged she would take it as final
rather than go from one to the other on up, and believe she would leave?
Miss Nestor. She would leave. If she sassed the floorwalker that would probably be the
means of her dismissal, and certainly she would have to go and if she didn't go life
would be very unpleasant for her anyhow.
Commissioner O'Connell. Have you an idea as to the number of female employees in the
stores in Cook County, for instance?
Miss Nestor. Well, I can't say just how many. Mr. Shedd could have told you very
quickly that number.
Commissioner O'Connell. Do you suppose a hundred thousand?
Miss Nestor. I could not say whether a hundred thousand. A great many thousand.
There are several thousand in one store.
Commissioner O'Connell. Are there any systems of the proprietor or manager keeping a
record of their employees and transferring the information contained in the records
from one store to another?
Miss Nestor. I have understood there was.
Commissioner O'Connell. If a girl, for instance, was discharged in one of the large
stores for sassing the floorwalker, or something of that kind, and the employment card
was marked in that store as being insubordinate, and she appeared at another store,
that information would be furnished?
Miss Nestor. I understand it is. I have heard that from the girls.
Commissioner O'Connell. Then, among the large number of girls employed in Chicago the
opportunity of a young lady finding employment after being discharged by one store
for some small offense would practically mean her discharge in all the avenues of
employment in the city of Chicago?
Miss Nestor. It should be—it might be—very likely would be.
Commissioner O'Connell. Used as a pure blacklist against her future employment, that
would have a tendency of driving her into almost any walk of life, into immoral
relations in life; poverty might compel her to seek an avenue of life
Miss Nestor. It is a pretty serious thing when anyone is blacklisted, of course. I can't
say to what extent it is carried on, but I have understood that there are girls who
have left one store and have found it very difficult to find employment in another.
There are things in that regard we have never found out and perhaps can't find out.
Commissioner O'Connell. Wouldn't that condition of affairs be one of the large reasons
of industrial unrest?
Miss Nestor. I think anyone who is not treated fairly, it is that injustice that brings
about unrest, whether a matter of employment or a matter of wages, or no matter
what it is. If you see you have a grievance and have no way to adjust it, that is one
of the things that brings about unrest. I know when our 10-hour law—our present bill
—was before the State Legislature, one of the merchants from the northwest side got
up and made a statement on the floor; he was trying to see whether the State Street
merchants were for it, in order to prejudice the bill, because they didn't work more
than 10 hours a day, and said it would drive them out of business. He says, "I know
you are not fighting that, because they called us up and said, 'We want to know
whether you are fighting for the union,' and we said 'we are fighting for the ten hour
law, what are you doing?' They said, 'We are fighting the union at this time,'" Of
course, there were girls discharged that had joined the union.
Commissioner O'Connell. That is all.
Chairman Walsh. How long have you been in the trades-union movement?
Miss Nestor. Twelve years.
Chairman Walsh. What was your trade—glove maker, did you say?
Miss Nestor. Glove maker.
Chairman Walsh. Was there organization in your craft prior to the time you joined the
union, when you went into the industry?
Miss Nestor. No, sir; there was not. I worked in it with and without organization.
Chairman Walsh. You worked in it with and without organization?
Miss Nestor. Yes.
Chairman Walsh. Were you born in Chicago?
Miss Nestor. No; born in Michigan.
Chairman Walsh. In Michigan. And to what extent did you advance in school before you
went into industry?
Miss Nestor. I went as high as the eighth grade. I didn't finish the eighth grade; I went
that high.
Chairman Walsh. Have you had opportunity since then, in the way of regular schooling,
night school, or anything of that kind?
Miss Nestor. No, sir; never taken any.
Chairman Walsh. Whatever you have acquired since that time you have acquired in
connection with your own work or the trades-union movement?
Miss Nestor. I have done it really in the trade-union movement.
Chairman Walsh. Have you performed any services for the Government—I believe you
have lately?
Miss Nestor. I recently served on a Federal commission for the—to consider national
aid for vocational education.
Chairman Walsh. For what length of time was that commission doing its work?
Miss Nestor. We sat two months.
Chairman Walsh. How many persons on that commission?
Miss Nestor. There were nine members—two United States representatives, two
Congressmen, and five other members. In all, the commission was composed of nine
members.
Chairman Walsh. Were you selected by your craft or by the President, or how?
Miss Nestor. I was appointed by the President of the United States, but I believe I was
indorsed by a great many members of my own craft.
Chairman Walsh. But there was no provision in the law that gave the craft any voice in
it?
Miss Nestor. No, sir.
Chairman Walsh. You were selected by the President himself?
Miss Nestor. There were two women selected, and I was one.
Chairman Walsh. Who was the other woman?
Miss Nestor. Miss Marshall.
Chairman Walsh. I want to ask you now to what extent has the movement to organize
women in domestic service progressed in Chicago?
Miss Nestor. Well, organization has been in existence a little over a year. We are
making slow but sure progress. Of course, it is something that you have to make slow
progress in, because you have got a group working in not one place; you have got to
get to work on one person here and one there. They are a scattered group. Then
they are leaving; some of our members are living in families, and perhaps they pick up
and go abroad or go to their summer homes. One time of the year we have got one
group and another time another. Then, of course, it is a more difficult group to
organize, of course, than the factory or some place where we have them all together.
Chairman Walsh. Is the Woman's Trade Union giving effort to the work?
Miss Nestor. They are. We have an organizer who has that in charge.
Chairman Walsh. Who is your organizer?
Miss Nestor. Mary Anderson.
Chairman Walsh. Is she a woman who was in the trade herself—a girl who was in the
business?
Miss Nestor. She was a shoe worker. We have one organizer, and she has to work with
various trades. Sometimes she might be one part and another time another part. We
can not have-
Chairman Walsh. Has the effort of organization reached the stage at which demands
have been formulated?
Miss Nestor. They have drawn up their demands with the domestic workers.
Chairman Walsh. Are they in writing?
Miss Nestor. We have them in printed form.
Chairman Walsh. Will you be kind enough to submit them to the commission?
Miss Nestor. I will be very glad to. There are some places in Chicago where they are in
effect. (A handbill enumerating the demands of the Household Workers' Association
was later submitted in printed form.)
Chairman Walsh. What are those places they are in effect? State them briefly, if you
can sketch it.
Miss Nestor. Just a few women who are interested in this thing have been glad to work
them out in their own homes.
Chairman Walsh. They are women connected with the Women's Trade Union League
that are not actively engaged in industry, do I understand?
Miss Nestor. That are not engaged.
Chairman Walsh. That are not engaged actually in industry themselves. Is that a fact?
Miss Nestor. Yes; those are the ones; yes. We have women in the league who are not
engaged in the industry. We have various groups of people in our league.
Chairman Walsh. And they are women that you would not say had any special personal
financial interest in the work you are trying to do?
Miss Nestor. Except that they are interested from the human point.
Chairman Walsh. From the human standpoint?
Miss Nestor. Yes; the real standpoint.
Chairman Walsh. Do those people give you assistance in your legislation?
Miss Nestor. Yes.
Chairman Walsh. Leaving aside for the moment organizations of employers, are there
employers who assist you in attempting to have those laws passed?
Miss Nestor. No; I am sorry to say that we have not had any employers that have
come right out and helped us to get legislation. We have had some of them,
employers who have been favorable to us, that they have helped to this extent: They
would try to get the support of their members on it. We had at one session a number
of employers who wrote letters. But the ones who go to Springfield to voice either
their protest or otherwise are employers representing the associations, and the
individual employers who go are usually the employers who are opposing the
legislation.
Chairman Walsh. Are these women who are associated with you who are not workers
themselves in any instance the wives of men that are engaged in industries, large and
small, that employ women help?
Miss Nestor. Yes; we have some.
Chairman Walsh. How many are there in the organization of the Women's Trade Union
League in Chicago?
Miss Nestor. Well, we have, you see, two memberships. We have an affiliated
membership and we have now about 600. We have an affiliated membership of several
thousand, because we have different unions of women affiliated with us. We have
women's clubs and some other organizations, sort of auxiliary bodies.
Chairman Walsh. The union workers are permitted to join the affiliated union, are they?
Miss Nestor. No; they can not join a union unless they have a union of their trade.
They join the league.
Chairman Walsh. Have you a publication in this city?
Miss Nestor. Yes; we have a national publication.
Chairman Walsh. Who is the editor of it?
Miss Nestor. Alice Henry. Life and Labor is the name of it.
Chairman Walsh. Have you an organization which has for its purpose the education of
young women in this work that are in industry?
Miss Nestor. Well, through our national league, we have got a school for the education
of those workers to try to help in making them more efficient to carry on their work of
organization.
Chairman Walsh. Is the instruction strictly within technical lines of trade-unionism?
Miss Nestor. Well, they are learning all about organizing the union; they are learning
about the history of trade-unionism. We want them to have the whole background.
We want to give them actual field work and do give them actual field work and let
them go out without organizers, and we try to have them in some of the conferences
so that they will know really what a trade organization is; we give them all the
experience that will be beneficial to them in their work for organization.
Chairman Walsh. Is it successful?
Miss Nestor. It has been successful so far; yes, sir. Of course, it has really only
started last year, so we have not had-
Chairman Walsh. I understood you to say that the employers' association which
opposed this legislation were represented by counsel?
Miss Nestor. They are. That is the only way they are ever there, is their counsel.
Chairman Walsh. Do your organizations have representation by counsel?
Miss Nestor. No.
Chairman Walsh. You go direct to these people that are attempting to help you, lay
people usually, women outside of organized labor, and yourselves?
Miss Nestor. The only ones we have working on our legislative work is the trade
workers themselves.
Chairman Walsh. Have you found that the lawyers present this opposition with more
vigor and feeling than the person actually involved usually shows—the client?
Miss Nestor. No; I do not think they make the impression, because they are asked
questions, and they don't know anything about the details of the business. They will
always put it off and say, "I don't know anything about it; I am just counsel for the
whole association." Then they will ask them about the hours, and they will say, "I
don't know the hours, because I have—I am just attorney for the entire association."
And, of course, the workers themselves know all about the hours of work of the
various trades, and that is included in our bill. We do try to print such literature as we
can regarding it, but the regulation is carried out in other States and the hours of
work in the various industries.
Chairman Walsh. Do you not find that the employment of these lawyers by these
employers' associations is a source of irritation to the workers?
Miss Nestor. Well. I know they have irritated some of our Springfield legislators at
times. Those are the only ones I have had any experience with, of course.
Chairman Walsh. What was the number of hours submitted in the proposed legislation
—the last proposed legislation by women?
Miss Nestor. The bill introduced was an 8-hour bill. The bill in the subcommittee was a
54-hour bill. That was reported out. That was the bill that we stood for. But it was
when that bill was before the house—the 54-hour bill; that is practically the eight
hour—one of the senators told us that they were fighting anything, it didn't make any
difference. They said that they were just as much opposed to that as they were to
the 60-hour law. They did not want any change in the law.
Chairman Walsh. Did you find that the press gave you what you considered to be fair
publicity in your efforts to bring about this legislation?
Miss Nestor. The press was very fair with us—very.
Chairman Walsh. Now, then, as to the industrial disputes that have resulted in strikes,
have there been any other in which women were involved except the waitresses in
Chicago within the past year or two?
Miss Nestor. Well, I can't say within the past year or two. Of course we had a great
garment workers' strike, which everybody remembers, here a few years ago. Then we
have had-
Chairman Walsh. Well, confine it if you will, to, say, the past two years.
Miss Nestor. Well, we have had some smaller strikes. I know there was a strike of the
straw and felt hat workers just last year. Of course that lasted only a few days. But
we have had other very small strikes, but none that have taken on the proportions
that the waitresses have.
Chairman Walsh. Were there arrests made in those strikes?
Miss Nestor. I might say we had a strike in our organization last year. It was a small
shop, and it was a strike in which we had similar experiences that the waitresses have
had. It was a glove factory out on the west side, and we had arrests occurring; in
fact, as I have heard violence discussed at these hearings, and the violence, I might
say in that instance, was on the part of the employer. In fact, the information we got
was that people were employed and paid for breaking our strike, and the fellow that
we had in charge of the strike was a very able and a very level-headed fellow, and
what they wanted to do was to get him in trouble. And there was a price of $50 put
up to the man that beat him up. And the way we found out was that one of the
fellows that really wasn't beating people at all, only he wanted the money, and he
didn't want to beat up the man. He told him about it, "We are getting $10 for beating
up your strikers and will get $50 to beat you up." He said, "I wish you would come
down here with your head tied up and look very bad about it, because I want the
money and I don't want to beat you up." He didn't do it. Our men were arrested
without any warrants at all. We happened to have and we did get fairness in the
court up in that neighborhood, but we did not get fairness at the hands of the police.
Chairman Walsh. I was going to ask you for your experience, and if the police treated
you fairly.
Miss Nestor. They did not. And when we wanted to have a meeting, an open-air
meeting, in the neighborhood, which would be away from traffic—they say you can't
blockade the traffic—away off on the prairie, where we would not disturb anyone, we
were refused, and we had to—I can say that we had to take it to the chief of police
to get permission. It was not Mr. Gleason, who is chief now, because Mr. Gleason was
captain of the station where all this—where we were getting all this unfair dealing.
Chairman Walsh. Did you secure the permission?
Miss Nestor. We secured the permission. Mr. Gleason was very much opposed to us
having the meeting, and when we did have it he had a whole array of police
surrounding the platform where our speakers stood to address the meeting. I know; I
presided at that meeting; and you would think that we were a most lawless, the most
lawless characters, if you had seen the number of police around there and detectives.
It seemed to some as if they were trying to incite violence and wrath, but they didn't
succeed in it.
Chairman Walsh. But it caused irritation, however?
Miss Nestor. It did cause very much irritation.
Chairman Walsh. You say the courts in that particular situation treated you fairly?
Miss Nestor. They did.
Chairman Walsh. It was a local magistrate?
Miss Nestor. No; it was the municipal judge.
Chairman Walsh. And you were tried directly before the judge without the intervention
of a jury there?
Miss Nestor. Well, we could have a jury if we wanted to, and we could waive. In some
cases we took a jury trial, and in some cases we waived it.
Chairman Walsh. You feel you were treated fairly in both instances?
Miss Nestor. Absolutely fairly in both instances.
Chairman Walsh. As to the waitresses' strike, what has been the attitude of the police
toward them, in your opinion; fair or unfair?
Miss Nestor. Unfair.
Chairman Walsh. In what respect; briefly?
Miss Nestor. Well, in the unjust arrests. Why, there the judges have ruled that they
can do this peaceful picketing. Why, it was only yesterday, or the day before
yesterday, I don't know which day, that I passed there, and there was another girl
with me, and we said, "Why, everything is very quiet," and the girl was walking up and
down; she wasn't speaking to anybody. In fact, she was walking up and down alone,
and after we had got down I guess two or three doors we heard the patrol coming,
and we said, "I bet that is for that waitress." And we turned around and we just got
up to the corner, and they were putting her into the wagon. Now, that is occurring all
the time, and it is simply to take them off from the picket line and put them to all the
trouble they can put them to. Of course, you know one of the ways that the
employers try to defeat us in a strike is to tie up our money in court fees and lawyers'
fees, and all that, and the more they can get us in jail and the more they can
inconvenience us,
they think, too, [arrests] will break the spirit of the girls. It does not usually do that. It usually has the opposite effect, it makes them all the more determined.
Chairman Walsh. Have the waitresses counsel, regular counsel employed during this
strike?
Miss Nestor. Yes; they have.
Chairman Walsh. Now, prior to the issuing of this last injunction order, what was the
practice with respect to picketing?
Miss Nestor. They have been doing this, as far as I can learn and know; that is, the
Knab strike, silent picketing; they have been walking up and down without saying
anything to anybody. They have a sign on them saying, as Miss Maloney said the
other day, "With your assistance we can win our strike."
Chairman Walsh. Previous to the issuance of this injunction in that waitresses' strike,
did the workers claim the right and have the right to suggest to persons that they
should not patronize the place, orally?
Miss Nestor. In the Henrici strike they did, they told them there was a strike on, and I
think all they said was, "Don't eat under police protection; there is a strike on."
Chairman Walsh. And so the change has been that there is no personal solicitation on
the part of the pickets?
Miss Nestor. None at all.
Chairman Walsh. Now, generally speaking, have those young women that have been
arrested been fairly treated by the courts?
Miss Nestor. I don't believe they have—well, by the courts when they finally got up to
them, but it takes forever to get your case to trial. They would waive, of course, the
trial and say they wanted a trial by jury, and they would keep putting it off and
putting it off—the cases—and the girls would be going there for their cases and they
would be postponed.
Chairman Walsh. How great a delay?
Miss Nestor. The great injustice, I think, was against the police department.
Chairman Walsh. How great a delay; what is the greatest delay that you know of that
has occurred between the arrest and the trial?
Miss Nestor. I think a number of weeks.
Chairman Walsh. Where the defendant insisted upon a trial?
Miss Nestor. Well, I think a number of weeks, I could not say definitely on that; I
would not want to give information that was not absolutely correct, but I think
several weeks.
Chairman Walsh. What has been the policy of the defendants with reference to
seeking, or not seeking, early trials of these cases?
Miss Nestor. I think they were very anxious to have trial in the early days, because
they wanted to have some cases to go up as a test case, and as dearly as I can
remember, they had a difficult time getting a trial.
Chairman Walsh. How many of these waitresses have been tried within the last month?
Miss Nestor. Well, there were hundreds arrested, I am sure, in the Henrici case. I don't
know during this strike how many arrests they have had, but it was a large number.
Chairman Walsh. You are not familiar with the arrests?
Miss Nestor. I am not. They have been arresting so fast I can't keep track.
Chairman Walsh. When juries were demanded-
Miss Nestor. They have all been found not guilty.
Chairman Walsh. Were the juries fairly democratic in their composition?
Miss Nestor. I think they were.
Chairman Walsh. With reference to the classes, with reference to business men, and
such like?
Miss Nestor. I think they were; I can't say positively about that, but I think they were;
I think they were fairly picked.
Chairman Walsh. So, outside of the local injustices on the part of the police officers,
you would think that the courts have held up fairly well under the strain of
administering justice?
Miss Nestor. Well, in our local courts, because you can get a jury trial, and that means
that you have an opportunity to get justice.
Chairman Walsh. Well, the girls have been acquitted?
Miss Nestor. Yes.
Chairman Walsh. In all instances?
Miss Nestor. I think the big abuse here in connection with our courts and all that is the
terrible police situation, the unjust arrests, the constant unjust arrests, and in some
instances, and in a number of instances, they have allowed them to be arrested
without warrants, which is absolutely against the law, as I understand it.
Chairman Walsh. Without individualizing, are there certain police officials that are
believed by the workers to be inimical to them?
Miss Nestor. Yes; they are.
Chairman Walsh. And have they or have they not progressed in the department?
Miss Nestor. In the police department?
Chairman Walsh. In the police department, have those that were inimical, have you
any observation on that; that is, that they were treated better or treated worse by
their superiors?
Miss Nestor. Well, that I could not say.
Chairman Walsh. Very good.
Miss Nestor. Of course, I put the blame on the head. I think that they get their orders
from higher up, and whatever he says, they are going to do. I think a great many of
the police perhaps like to use their own will about things, but there are others who
simply do it because they get their orders from higher up, and as long as the chief of
police will tolerate that we are going to have it.
Chairman Walsh. That is all. Thank you, Miss Nestor.
Mr. Thompson. About how much bail was given by the waitresses in the Henrici strike;
what was the total of it, do you know?
Miss Nestor. I think Miss Maloney mentioned it the other day. In some instances they
have even had to give cash bonds, they had to put up cash bonds, and they got the
bail so high, I think they had it $500 as a minimum.
Mr. Thompson. Did it run over $100,000, if you know?
Miss Nestor. Oh, it must have gone up to that, anyhow. I know it was enormous.
Mr. Thompson. Referring to the question of the unrest especially, Miss Nestor, if under
a collective-bargaining agreement you could get the conditions you wanted in an open
shop, what would be then the advantage of a closed shop?
Miss Nestor. Well, I don't like to talk about closed shops, because I call it the union
shop. I don't think we have any closed shops.
Mr. Thompson. Well, talk about a union shop, then, Miss Nestor.
Miss Nestor. I don't believe you can have harmony where two kinds of people are
working in the shop. You can't mix oil and water. And if you are going to have union
and nonunion people mixing together, you are quite likely to have discord in the shop.
And if you want real harmony, you have got to have all of one; you have got to have
all union people. And then, too, if an organization makes an agreement, it is difficult to
make it unless you are certain that you are going to make it really for all the people in
that industry, and if they are not members of the union, you can't make an agreement
for them, because you have no authority over them. You only have authority over
those people who are your members, and know that they will live up to their trade
agreement.
Chairman Walsh. That is all. Thank you, Miss Nestor.
[emphasis added]
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