Daily Kos

Originalism and Unenumerated Rights

Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:55:32 AM PDT

At 10:00 a.m., People for the American Way will announce its opposition to the Roberts nomination to the SCOTUS. Don't ask me how I know, I just do. On that important note, I want to revisit an important issue to be considered regarding judicial philosophy - that of the title.

This morning Kevin Drum takes a crack at Originalism:

Of all the pillars of modern conservatism, the one that has long struck me as the most obviously absurd is the doctrine of orginalism. Think about it. Are we really supposed to take seriously the idea that the Supreme Court of 2005 -- in an era of spyware, genetic mapping, and billion dollar hedge funds -- is supposed to make its judgments based on divining the intent of a small group of men who lived in a simple agrarian community 200 years ago? Presented baldly, it's an idea that wouldn't pass muster with a bright 10 year old.

I disagree with Kevin. The problem is not being faith to the original purposes of the Constitution, but rather feigning a blind fealty to its text -- what I call "blind  textualism."

Dalias Lithwick wrote "But it's hard to find a creditable recent defense of the Constitution as something greater than the span of its own four corners. And I wonder why."  Well, here was one of mine.

But the reality is there are no true Original textualists, just poseurs. And a good thing. Because blind textualism is sheer nonsense, as I explained in my post linked above. But Prof. Jack Balkin does a very good job of explaining how obvious the lie of the "Original textualists" actually is - by dicussing their dissent in Kelo. As I am the one person in all of daily kos who believes Kelo correctly decided, because of the definition of "public use," you'll find my position on the "Living Constitution" approach used by the dissent ironic no doubt. But there it is. I'll discuss Balkin's takedown of the "Originalists" on the flip.

  • ::
On to Balkin's dissection:

If you've been paying attention to the Supreme Court's recent docket, you may find all this talk about taking from A and giving to B familiar. It's what was at issue in Kelo v. New London, in which the Supreme Court held that taking property as part of a comprehensive scheme to stimulate economic development was a public use, and did not violate the Constitution as long as just compensation was given. Justice O'Connor began her dissent by quoting the passage from Calder v. Bull I cited above, which as we have seen, is the original citation for the doctrine of unenumerated rights. What New London was doing, she argued was nothing less than taking property from individual homeowners and giving it to other private parties.

Nobody accused Justice O'Connor of engaging in substantive due process, and amusingly, Justices Scalia and Thomas, who don't usually recognize unenumerated rights, joined her opinion. Of course, the reason was that her argument was nominally premised on the text of the Public Use Clause. But as I noted above, the Public Use Clause doesn't actually say that property can't be taken for private use. It says only that "private property [shall not] be taken for public use, without just compensation." That leaves out takings for private use without just compensation and takings for private use with just compensation. O'Connor is reading into the text of the Public Use Clause things that are not actually there. The prohibition is in the Fifth Amendment to be sure, but not in the Public Use Clause.

So where do we get the principle banning takings for purely private use that was at stake in Kelo? We get it from the basic idea of substantive due process, which prohibits A to B transfers and protects vested rights from being destroyed by government. Justice Thomas tries to avoid recognizing this in his dissenting opinion, arguing that despite its language the Public Use clause cannot apply merely to public uses; otherwise, it would allow takings for private use without compensation, which would "contradict a bedrock principle well established by the time of the founding: that all takings required the payment of compensation." He artfully elides the question of what textual provision in the Constitution prevents takings for private use with compensation. We know the answer-- it's the Due Process Clause. That's what most people at the Founding thought, and that's why the Fifth Amendment is written that way.

But, wait, that would mean that in Kelo Thomas is actually making an argument from (shudder) substantive due process. And it would be the same sort of argument that Chief Justice Taney made in Dred Scott. But we all know that Justices Thomas and Scalia don't believe in substantive due process. And they certainly don't agree with anything that awful Chief Justice Taney said in Dred Scott.

. . . Let me summarize: Critics of Kelo (including the dissenting Justices) are making a very old kind of argument from substantive due process, indeed the original argument from substantive due process, and the very sort of argument that Chief Justice Taney made in Dred Scott. Does that undermine their arguments or make them bad people? No, it does not. And here's the moral of the story: Just because an argument appears in Dred Scott doesn't mean that the idea is bad. The idea that the Constitution follows the flag is not bad, and substantive due process is not bad.

Of course that is correct. So, in the end, we all believe in a "Living Constitution." Some of us are more honest about it, that's all.

NOTE: O'Connor has ALWAYS recognized unenumerated rights. See Casey. No need to call her a hypocrite.

   

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Permalink | 233 comments

  •  I thought opposition was a given. (none / 0)

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."- Thomas Jefferson

    by RandyMI on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:55:03 AM PDT

    •  Let's face it, folks... (4.00 / 2)

      The whole notion of originalism is preposterous.  The entire time we were growing up, we were regaled in school about what a marvelous document the Constitution was, because it could adapt itself so marvelously to changing circumstances.  We were taught that the founding fathers were prescient in crafting a flexible document that could be interpreted and reinterpreted by the Supreme Court, so that it could maintain its relevance to this very day.

      Failing that, it could be amended to correct a few egregious blunders (say, the sanctioning of slavery and the prohibition on a woman's right to vote).

      But if you want to adopt an "originalist", or strict constructionist view, why would you ever have to resort to new interpretations, or, for that matter, amendments?  Every single amendment to the Constitution arguably runs counter to the intent of the founding fathers.

      •  Strict constructionism != Amendments bad (none / 0)

        The point of strict constructionism (at least from a libertarian point of view) is that when we put limits and checks on the powers of government, those limits and checks can only be eroded by the people or their representatives, not an unelected oligarchy of nine judges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with amending the Constitution and nothing sacred about the original intent of the fathers; it's about having a real honest-to-God Constitution that means something, unlike, say, the Soviet one which had all the nice words that ours had but in practice meant squat. And for it to mean something, you've got to be able to pick it up and read it and know what those words mean without knowing what asshats the last three Presidents appointed to the Supreme Court.
        •  "Unelected" = bad? (none / 0)

          Sorry, what???

          This whole thing about "Judges are bad because they're unelected" is junk. I'm sorry if that runs counter to your political sensibilities. It sucks. It's terrible.

          Judges don't just appear out of thin air with their black robes on. They are no more or less "unelected" than laws, treaties, and wars. Neither can judges change the constitution, only the way in which we interpret it. And if you take judges away then someone else has to do the interpreting. But who? The Legislative, perhaps? The Executive? The people themselves? Why are any of these better or worse than judges? Because they are "elected"? What the bloody hell does the constitution mean if everything is decided through majority rule anyway? Nothing, that's what--and the original intent of the founding fathers was to avoid strict majoritarian rule because of the fear of simple mob rule; a fear, if you take a look outside your window, that certainly seems to be highly justified considering the current climate.

          Sorry, sorry. I'll stop. This sort of argument just sets me off.

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:34:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Besides that... (none / 0)

        Interpretation is inevitable. There's simply no way around it. Neither is interpretation inherently bad or--perhaps more accurately--neither is interpretation inferior to some other option available to us. If we could magically divine precisely what everyone was thinking in some objective manner then, of course, we would be free of the need for interpretation. Except in so far as we would need to understand every individual movement up to that point in time.

        "Literalism" doesn't work in Biblical interpretation or anything else. It's still interpretation, it just ignores the fact.

        The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

        by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:24:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  literal interpretation (4.00 / 4)

    it's the same rationale that drives the literal interpretation of the bible, a compendium of cultural and religious mores written to provide guidance to the barely-evolved-from-hunter-gatherers of 2000+ years ago... blind textualism completely ignores that reality as well as the more fundamental one of words and concepts that either don't translate or don't translate meaningfully and contexts that are either missing or incomprehensible to 21st century human beings... but, oh, well...
  •  These are the same folks who ... (4.00 / 2)

    are pandering to the religious right. The folks who believe the Bible, whatever version you happen to read, is to be taken literally; that the world was created in seven solar days, that the whole world was covered with a flood killing everything except a few animals and humans in a wooden boat, that Jonah was swallowed by a large fish, carried to shore, and spit out.

    Given that they demand a literal interpretation of a motley collection of books that have changed over more than 2000 years, why wonder that they would demand a literal interpretation of an intact document only a couple of centuries old?

    noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

    by fritzrth on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:05:47 AM PDT

    •  I'm not terribly well-schooled in the... (none / 1)

      ...psychology of this kind of mass psychosis, but over a life-time of observing my fellow critters, and pursuing the delights of the constructs of our minds, such as the bible, the Constitution, and etc., I've noticed a propensity for this kind of literal interpretation.

      Has anybody else noticed the massive similarities in the way the Literal Constitutionalists, the Evangelical seven-day creation weirdos, the Star Trek geeks (migod!  Klingon is a real language now...), the Star Wars nerds, and even the Tolkien scholars (OK, less loaded language... I like Tolkien) - approach their given individual perversions?

      It really appears to me that humans are wired into this kind of endless literal disection.

      Maybe that's a good thing for the species - but we should probably all endeavor to keep our warped proclivities in the bedroom...

      JF

      It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

      by Jaime Frontero on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:26:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How to make a Wingnut hate Originialism (4.00 / 5)


      Just apply it to the second amendment.  Its an Article of Faith on the right that the 2nd Amendment gives people  the right to own whatever firearms their cordite-blackened hearts desire.

      This is simply NOT the case if One embraces Strict constructionism however.  Let's do a simple exercise in originalist interpretation techniques:

       First we start with the text

      Amendment II
      A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

      Now to the average Wingnut this passage is clear as crystal,  they ingnore that first dependant clause and got right to the Right to keep and Arm Bears .(or something like that.) But not so fast.  

       If we are being originalist, we cannot be so cavalier with words.  What they mean now is irrelevant to us.  As Scalia claimed in the famous Bowers v. Hardwick decision;  the only proper thing to do is determine what the words meant at the time they were written

      This means that the key phrase of this amendment "arms" must only be interpreted in the way the founders meant it to be when they wrote it.   A quick glance at a military history of the era reveals No, rifles, No repeating pistols, not even any breach-loading, or cartridge shot  weapons of any kind. Therefore only definition of "arms" available to the Founding Fathers would involve Single Shot, Smooth-bore muzzle loading pistols and muskets.  

       Therefore, by the doctrine of Originalism;  the right to keep and Bear these specific arms  only is all that is  guaranteed by the Constitution.    

       Anything invented after that  date can be banned with no problems whatsoever.   In fact, to even  attempt to include any weapon developed after 1789 would be the rankest form of Judicial activism, and further  the heresy that the Constitution is capable of growth and change over time.  And we all know where that leads....

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:35:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nicely argued... (none / 1)

        I plan to try this out on all my gun-nut friends.  If I suddenly disappear, send out a search party.
      •  Ooooh! (none / 1)

        Does it lead to man-on-dog sex?
      •  Ha... (none / 0)

        the way I interpret it, I'm entitled to own a nuke.

        A Vote For John Edwards Is A Vote For Yourself. Iowa Underground

        by ThunderHawk13 on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:59:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fortunately.... (none / 0)

          the Iranians aren't subject to the U.S. Constitution, or there'd be no way of preventing them from acquiring a "nucular" arsenal.
          •  I'm still trying to figure out (none / 0)

            I'm still trying to figure out what authority the US has to forbid Iran from acquiring nukes in the first place.  Mind you, the thought of a radical religious fundamentalist head of state having access to nuclear weapons scares the shit out of me.  But since it's more than five years too late to prevent that, I don't see how we can plausibly argue that Iran shouldn't have them too.

            Have I ever told you about my poor memory?

            by ignorant bystander on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:21:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  NPT (none / 0)

              Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.  Iran is a signatory.  That treaty binds them to pursue only civilian nuclear energy, not nuclear weapons.

              They could pull out of the treaty as North Korea did, and suffer the international reprobation.  The present controversy is that the US accuses them of breaking the treaty secretly.

      •  Maybe... (none / 0)

        That would be one form of argument, but I wouldn't find it entirely persuasive. Arguing that "arms" only covers all the "arms" that were known in 1789 is like saying that the freedom of the "press" only covers what types of "press" existed in 1789. That would leave out all forms of Internet press; plus I suspect the New York Times uses print technology that is also not covered under this definition.

        I don't think anyone, strict or loose, reads things in this fashion.

        Now, a better argument, in my mind, would be to define these words by the properties which they possessed. An "arm" had a legal definition at the time -- I'm not sure what -- but I would wager it went something like "a weapon that can be borne by a single man", as opposed to a definition which encompasses specific cases. (I'm assuming cannons and so forth were not included, but I'm not sure about this. Anyone know?) Now, if thats's what an "arm" is, then the minute somebody builds a shoulder launched nuclear missile, you've got yourself an argument.

        •  Originalism does not allow such interpretation (none / 0)

          That's the point. The first amendment would be precisely limited to only allowing such forms of press as were known to the founders.   (No one, as you corretly point out is seriously arguing that however, but it IS a logical extension of their argument).   Nor is this a Strawman.  Look at Scalia's concurrance in Bowers v. Hardwick 478 US 186

          these are the holdings

          It is obvious to us that neither of these formulations would extend a fundamental right to homosexuals to engage in acts of consensual sodomy. Proscriptions against that conduct have ancient roots. See generally Survey on the Constitutional Right to Privacy in the Context of Homosexual Activity, 40 U. Miami L. Rev. 521, 525 (1986). Sodomy was a criminal offense at common law and was forbidden by the laws of the original 13 States when they ratified the Bill of Rights. 5 In 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was [478 U.S. 186, 193]   ratified, all but 5 of the 37 States in the Union had criminal sodomy laws. 6 In fact, until 1961, 7 all 50 States outlawed sodomy, and today, 24 States and the District of Columbia [478 U.S. 186, 194]   continue to provide criminal penalties for sodomy performed in private and between consenting adults. See Survey, U. Miami L. Rev., supra, at 524, n. 9. Against this background, to claim that a right to engage in such conduct is "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty" is, at best, facetious.

          Nor are we inclined to take a more expansive view of our authority to discover new fundamental rights imbedded in the Due Process Clause. The Court is most vulnerable and comes nearest to illegitimacy when it deals with judge-made constitutional law having little or no cognizable roots in the language or design of the Constitution.


          Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

          by Magorn on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 10:49:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting, but originalists could object (none / 0)

        I support more of the "Living Constitution" view than strict originalism (though, admit to merging what logically makes sense - all information to consider is useful), but I wonder if you are using more of a strict constructionist perspective than, say, "original meaning" as espoused by folks like Justice Scalia.

        Original meaning allows for the possible understanding that the Second Amendment referenced "arms" as covering all known weaponry at the time which individuals could reasonably wield.  This interpretation could then apply logically to allowing all weaponry that individuals could wield today, for example.  Sounds a bit extreme without any specific context in which to apply this notion, but there it is.

        "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

        by wader on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 12:39:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Great legal Minds (none / 1)

          Have argued precisely these sorts of points for a long time. There isn't a law student who doesn't cringe at the names Bentham and Austin for instance.

          The core of the problem is of course, you can never really determine the "original intent" of any law but that's precisely what, as a judge you are called on to enforce.  

          This is true even if, as in the case of a stature, the enacting body is alive and well and available to take questions.  Why?  Because the law was enacted by a majority of the legislature present and voting.   For every vote there is probably a different interpretation as to precisely what was "intended" by language of the statute.  Which language was itself very likely a product of compromises worked out by competing fashion.

          Therefore judges and legal scholars have abandoned the notion that you can find "original intent" by attempting to read the minds of the enactors.  Instead, "Intent" is a legal fiction created by applying your best understanding of the meaning of the words of the statute to the case at hand.

          But even that gets sticky.  For example there's a lovely 1926 case that's foisted upon law students called Mcboyle in which a person who stole an airplane is in Federal court for "Theft of a motor vehicle".   Now the law had been passed by congress about the same time cars started being  been mass produced.    It was a federal statute because, as cars were highly mobile it was too easy to cross state lines to avoid prosecution, and therefore a federal law was necessary to bring the thieves to justice.

          When it was passed the airplane wasn't even invented.  Therefore, can an airplane thief be charged under the law?  On the one hand, if you simply applied a Webster's dictionary to the words of the statute, The airplane clearly qualifies as a "motor vehicle".

           On the other, its impossible to say the legislature "intended" to prevent thefts of a vehicle that had yet to be invented when the statute was passed.  But, at the same time, the airplane possess all the same qualities of a motor vehicle, that made the law necessary in the first place. (easily stealable high mobility, capable of cross state lines easily).

          So how do you decide the Original Intent in this case and to what res

          Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

          by Magorn on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 01:14:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Unfortunately... (none / 0)

        The second you say "second amendment" their brains turn off, collectively.

        It's like... i wouldn't be so harsh on the NRA if they would at least argue for the whole amendment, not just the half they like.

        But trying to get logical consistency out of them is like... well, expecting water to run uphill.

        The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

        by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:40:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  C'mon Armando (none / 0)

    Who's your source?? No big deal. Giving up confidentiality and all that.

    Heh--anyway, props on the nice scoop.

  •  Excuse me, Armando (4.00 / 4)

    You weren't the only fan of Kelo.

    The reason why the Constitution is a "living" one is that its own text demands it.  How can one determine whether a search and seizure is "reasonable", a process given was "due" or a punishment "cruel and unusual" without reference to some outside norms of behavior?  

    Had the Founders wanted to contrain our understanding of the text, they could have included language saying so.  But as Jefferson later wrote:

    "I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions . . . . But I know also that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also and keep pace with the times." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:40
    •  Outside norms (none / 1)

      The reason why the Constitution is a "living" one is that its own text demands it.  How can one determine whether a search and seizure is "reasonable", a process given was "due" or a punishment "cruel and unusual" without reference to some outside norms of behavior?

      Scalia's answer to this question is that judges should rely on the "original" understanding of those terms at the time they were incorporated into the Constitution. For example, Scalia has argued that "cruel and unusual" as used in the 8th Amendment refers to what was considered "cruel and unusual" at the time the 8th Amendment was adopted.

      •  I'm aware of that (4.00 / 2)

        But there's nothing in the text of the Constitution that demands such an interpretation.
        •  Correct. (none / 1)

          Scalia espouses that sort of view because it is more convenient to him than not.

          (And when it is inconvenient it goes straight out the window. But you probably new that, too.)

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:44:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  True (none / 0)

          OTOH, not to give the devil his due or anything, but there is also nothing in the text of the constitution that would (for example) require that the phrase "cruel and unusual" be interpreted according to "evolving standards of decency."

          So what we have is different judges/politicians interpreting the constitution according to their favorite standards (or, like Scalia, according to a standard that leads to results compatible with their dogma).

          The Scalia crowd likes to rely on a few select Federalist Papers (as discussed a while back on this site) that are consistent with their worldview, which is in a way similar to the ultra-right conservative interpretation of the New Testament, which relies heavily on the writings of Paul and ignores, for some reason, the words of Jesus, whom they are supposed to believe is God.  But that's a topic for another day...

          •  ironically (none / 1)

            Trop v Dulles, which established "evolving standards of decency" as the 8th amendment test, was an originalist decision from Earl Warren:
            The exact scope of the constitutional phrase "cruel and unusual" has not been detailed by this Court. But the basic policy reflected in these words is firmly established in the Anglo-American tradition of criminal justice. The phrase in our Constitution was taken directly from the English Declaration of Rights of 1688, and the principle it represents can be traced back to the Magna Carta. The basic concept underlying the Eighth Amendment is nothing less than the dignity of man. While the State has the power to punish, the Amendment stands to assure that this power be exercised within the limits of civilized standards. Fines, imprisonment and even execution may be imposed depending upon the enormity of the crime, but any technique outside the bounds of these traditional penalties is constitutionally suspect. This Court has had little occasion to give precise content to the Eighth Amendment, and, in an enlightened democracy such as ours, this is not surprising. But when the Court was confronted with a punishment of 12 years in irons at hard and painful labor imposed for the crime of falsifying public records, it did not hesitate to declare that the penalty was cruel in its excessiveness and unusual in its character. The Court recognized in that case that the words of the Amendment are not precise, and that their scope is not static. The Amendment must draw its meaning from the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.

            It also consulted, gasp, foreign law:
            The civilized nations of the world are in virtual unanimity that statelessness is not to be imposed as punishment for crime. It is true that several countries prescribe expatriation in the event that their nationals engage in conduct in derogation of native allegiance. Even statutes of this sort are generally applicable primarily  to naturalized citizens. But use of denationalization as punishment for crime is an entirely different matter. The United Nations' survey of the nationality laws of nations of the world reveals that only two countries, the Philippines and Turkey, impose denationalization as a penalty for desertion. In this country the Eighth Amendment forbids this to be done.
    •  Heh (none / 0)

      That makes 2 of us Adam.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:23:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  3 (none / 0)


         I think the right decision resulted in an sad and awful outcome.  It happens sometimes.  However, the "out" that Kennedy gave, i.e., that State Legislatures were free to tighten up their E.D. laws, is exactly what's now going on.  Plus, on the local level, I think that "true democracy" (using "democracy" with it's old, 18th century connotations!) may have a "chilling effect" on other municipal officials doing similar stunts for fear of being tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail by an angry citizenry!

         BenGoshi
        ___________________
         

        "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

        by BenGoshi on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:30:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well 5 of us (none / 0)

          now apparently.

          But it seemed like none when I defended it back when.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:50:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Counting (none / 0)

            While I didn't explicitly state my reluctant agreement that Kelo was properly decided, the tone of the diaries I posted on legislative responses in the wake of the ruling should make my skepticism of the ruling's critics fairly apparent.

            Many folks were so angered by their interpretations of the decision that most discussions here were dominated by those who shouted the loudest.  I would have loved to see the Supreme Court come down the other way (Bruce Ratner's proposed mega-development in Brooklyn is only a couple of blocks from where I live), but I also understand why that would have greatly been a benefit to powerful conservative interests.

            Can you smell the Constitution burning?

            by The Maven on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:06:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey (none / 0)

              This is great.

              I love all the agreement.

              I won't comment on how you all were ducking under the tables when the shit was flying . . .  ahem.

              Kidding.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:18:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  quick question (none / 0)

                Is there a lay-type explanation of all this that I can read to inform myself?  I wasn't paying attention very well what with all the shit flying around and I'm still confused about Kelo- so it's not really about the government's ability to take any property they want for private use?

                Just askin', just want to stay informed...

              •  Guilty as charged. nt (none / 0)

                "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

                by BenGoshi on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 09:29:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I supported Kelo in another msgboard (none / 0)

                Sorry, wasn't actively posting at DKos then :) .

                I'm primarily from the "Living Constitution" camp, btw.

                "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                by wader on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 12:46:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I agree also (none / 0)

                The particular instance that Kelo argued was unfortunate, but anyone who has a problem with the idea of eminent domain should stay off the interstate system.

                As for bowing out of the argument when the shit was flying, I beg a complete lack of legal training.

                No laws but Liberty. No king but Conscience.

                by oldjohnbrown on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:10:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  you must have taken a nap after you posted (none / 0)

                I thought a lot of us were saying that based on the precedent it was correctly decided - but that in real-people terms it sucked -

                course, I was Johnny-come-lately that day like I am today -

                "It's possible for human being(sic) and fish to co-exist peacefully." George W. Bush

                by mississippi scott on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:20:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  no! I weighed in! (none / 1)

            I said Kelo follows easily from the Midkiff case, which dramatically improved the quality of life in my home state of hawaii.

            guess nobody paid attention..... sigh....

            •  Cept for you (none / 0)

              Actually, I was kidding.I know you did and Marie I remember. Adam.

              But boy, there were 8 million killing me so it got drowned out a bit.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:25:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Midkiff (none / 0)

              I don't think Kelo follows logically from Midkiff.  In Midkiff, the State sought to use its police power to abate a harm (oligopoly), and in doing so incidentally (and necessarily) conferred a benefit to private persons.

              In Kelo, there was no argument that the present use of the property was harmful made by either side.  The decision authorizes the State to use its police power to directly and purposefully confer a benefit another private person.  I find it difficult to find any limitation to the public use exception after Kelo.  

              O'Connor authored Midkiff, and dissented in Kelo and this was her reason for distinguishing the two.

              •  I don't see it (none / 0)

                don't you think the Kelo lawmakers could have framed the status quo pricate ownership as a harm?   Something like inefficient use of resources?  

                It's real easy to say that the status quo in Hawaii prior to Midkiff was harmful, but really it was just a legislative determination that certain concentrations of property ownership were bad.  That's not so different from a legislative determination that particular uses of property are bad.  

                •  Single Family Housing (none / 0)

                  The City here did not argue that Kelo's use of her property was a harmful one.  Just that the proposed used was a better one from the City's point of view.  This is a big difference from where the jurisprudence was after Midkiff.
        •  Please... (none / 1)

          that State Legislatures were free to tighten up their E.D. laws, is exactly what's now going on.

          Please... leave Bob Dole out of this.  :D

    •  Hey, Mr. Oh-So-Special! (4.00 / 3)

      As I am the one person in all of daily kos who believes Kelo correctly decided, because of the definition of "public use," you'll find my position on the "Living Constitution" approach used by the dissent ironic no doubt.

      You are most certainly not the only person on dKos who believed KELO to be correctly decided and/or essentially liberal in its nature.  I argued that position, and I recall other people doing so as well.

      It's true that there was an enormous amount of "Oh my God, the world has ended." sentiment here (as on conservative sites), but there was a reasonable amount of rational analysis as well.

      PS: Believing KELO to be correctly decided is not the same thing as supporting the use of eminent domain in this particular case.  Simply because an action is within the ability of the State does not mean it should be taken.

      John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

      by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:33:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  PPS (none / 1)

        That comment was, of course, directed at Armando, in support of Mr. Bonin's comment, not at Mr. Bonin.

        John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

        by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:34:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  PS gave me strength (none / 0)

        PS: Believing KELO to be correctly decided is not the same thing as supporting the use of eminent domain in this particular case.  Simply because an action is within the ability of the State does not mean it should be taken.

        This was what gave me conviction when I supported the decision (not here, but here).  I saw it as a decision of restraint, in which the court refused to take the bait and legislate from the bench.

        Furthermore, I saw O'Connor's decision as particularly nasty, because in her neat twist at the end, iirc, where she "worries" about this sort of takings as benefitting those with better legal defense as a giant canard. The conservatives have no interest in public use, but laid a trap for the court to establish a test for takings that would open up a slippery slope limiting and limiting takings in general, leading to a libertarian wonderland.

        Finally, the worry about the rich having better legal access is misleading as the rich already have better legal access. O'Connor's dissent has strawmen all over the place to woo people who freak out about the very idea of takings (property is supposed to be sacred) as well as the support-the-underdog liberals. A giant trap.

      •  Not just liberal (none / 0)

        [quote]You are most certainly not the only person on dKos who believed KELO to be correctly decided and/or essentially liberal in its nature.[/quote]

        It is not just liberal; it is conservative as well. It is compatible with all mainstream political positions. It is only not compatible with certain extreme ideologies like Communism or Anarchism.

        •  Actually... (none / 0)

          I'm an anarchist here and while, in terms of solely the case itself, i think Kelo sucks pretty hard (and is another blow in favor of unrestrained corporatism, etc, etc) i'm somewhat agnostic in terms of the validity of the decision in and of itself. Furthermore, i'm glad to see a beating handed to the "property rights fundamentalists" even if i don't like the outcome in the abstract.

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 03:52:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Snark (none / 1)

      The problem with the above Jefferson quote is that its premise relies on human minds becoming more advanced.  The people in charge want to turn the clock back to a more "enlightened" pre-Enlightenment period.  How's that for progress?

      People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

      by viget on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:34:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Precisely (none / 1)

      the Writings of ALL the framers are rife with references to their "grand experiment" and their fervent hope that Constitution would allow the society they founded to grow in liberty and freedom as it matured.

      Originalism is a intellectually bankrupt from its outset.  Take the glorious 14th Amendment, the greatest guarantor of personal liberty in the entire text.  For generations of rational Constitutional scholars and Jurists, the 14th's guarantee of liberty has been a elastic and evolving one.  The 14th guarantees, "those rights fundamental to our system of ordered liberty" as each generation understands them.

      TO accept the Scalian view of the 14th (that it merely guarantees those liberties commonly available to citizens in 1864 when it was passed) leads to a truly absurd proposition:

      If Americans  wanted the Constitution to accurately reflect its consensus view as to  what constitutes basic civil rights; it would have to re-pass an Amendment, with the exact same language as the 14th about every ten years or so.

      The idiocy of this idea reveals the essential intellectual bankruptcy of originalism as a judicial philosophy.  It is NOT about correctly interpreting the constitution, rather it is about enshrining the values of the past (a key part of conservatism generally) and forcing those in the present to conform to them.

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 09:14:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course Kelo was correctly decided (none / 0)

      It was such an obvious and easy case. Any reasonable court would have decided unanimously. The fact that there were 4 dissenters is appalling; it really shows that we are a nation of idiots.

      Most arguments against Kelo simply show that the person who makes them can't read. The more sophisticated ones (such as those explained by Balkin) are less obviously stupid, but if you care to analyze them, you'll find that they are still stupid. There is simply no meaningful difference between government taking for "public" or for "private" use; actually, the latter is an oxymoron.

      If the government can't take property X from A and give it to B ("just compensation" is assumed here and in all the following), than it also can't take property X from A, build a city hall on it, and give the old city hall, on property Y, equally valuable as X, to B. Or, if the prohibition does not extend to this case, governments can circumvene the first prohibition by simple shuffling, so the prohibition would be meaningless.

      Similarly, the government could not use the property for "public use" and subsequently sell it to a private party. Is there anything in the Constitution that would make a difference whether the interim period of "public use" lasts one day or 100 years?

      If you follow this reasoning, you'll conclude that the government can't ever give any benefit to any private party.

      Now that might be a Libertarian paradise, and it might even not be a bad system, but it would not resemble the US at any point in its history, and it would render virtually every US law unconstitutional.

      Only a radical anarchist could wish that.

      •  Going to have to disagree again... (none / 0)

        It's not really an "anarchistic" position: it worships property rights (and the heirarchy of ownership) and places them on a pedestal above all other things.

        Really, this is a very complex issue and i would like to do it justice with a sufficient rebuttal. Unfortunately i have neither the time or space here to do so. But i do want to voice my opposition to that idea nonetheless.

        The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

        by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:29:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  hehe (none / 1)

    People for the American Way will announce its opposition to the Roberts nomination to the SCOTUS. Don't ask me how I know, I just do

    Because it was reported on C-Span last night ? That's where i heard it.

    •  Well (none / 0)

      Since they are announcing it today, it seems a little birdie whispered in their ear as well.

      I didn't get it from C-Span.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:16:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Common Law (4.00 / 2)

        Is judge made law.  Which link do you want me to read

        Something that really gets me riled when you get these dunderheads arguing about "original intent" and "acitivist judges" is that they have no understanding of the history of our jurisprudence and how our laws were derived from the English Common law.

        The "original intent" doctrine was derived for one purpose and one purpose only -- so that they would have a legal argument to overturn cases and laws they do not like.  

        Original intent is meant to overturn both Roe v. Wade and Civil Rights laws.

        •  My link (none / 0)

          Mentioned in the post. The link to my defense of a Living Constitution.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:26:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Found the Link (none / 0)

            And read the post.  But it doesn't answer the question as to whether any of the basic rights found in the Bill of Rights is actually derived from a judge made right from the English common law.

            It would be an interesting scholarly exercise to find that out.

            •  It answers a more important question (none / 0)

              That Judge made law is INTEGRAL to the
              Constitutional framework.

              You are playing for the textualists' playbook, as am I. But to reach a different conclusion.

              Both important and valid in my opinion.

              And related. I was making a related point.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:36:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (none / 0)


           The common law is, indeed, Judge Made Law.  Worth repeating, what you write:


          ". . . these dunderheads argu[e] about "original intent" and "acitivist judges" [when] they have no understanding of the history of our jurisprudence and how our laws were derived from the English Common law.

           Thank you.

          BenGoshi
          __________________

          "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

          by BenGoshi on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:35:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And to the extent you can argue (none / 0)

            That say, the right against self-incrimination was a wholly judge created right under the English Common law, then you bolster the argument that the wholly judge made right to privacy is equally valid.

            Again, I don't know if any of the original rights derived from English common law ARE wholly judge created, but it would be an interesting exercise to examine.

          •  Older than that really (none / 1)

            Some recent research I've done has revealed that English Common law (standardized after the Norman invasion) in fact relied on a much older legal Tradition, that of Celtic pre-Christian Brehon (a word that derives from the Gaelic word for judge).  Law, that can be traced back to at least the 600's BC  

            In that system, there was no written code of law,(as they had no native alphabet) but the judges (specially trained Bards) had committed to memory lists of all the most important legal cases in their history (in pre-literate societies, people often had fantastic memorization skills, and as bards these judges had been trained in  the trick of memorizing long lists by putting them to music)

            If there was a case on point the judge would faithfully apply the existing precedent.  If it was a new situation he'd use his legal training to make the fairest ruling possible that harmonized with existing decisions.

             Once a year, all the judges met at a giant conference to discuss all the new rulings they'd made and argue their merits.  Those accepted as precedent were binding on all the other Judges.  (in other words nearly EXACTLY how modern judges use precedents and apply the doctrine of stare decisis to appellate rulings)

            English common law, was by and large a written codification of the Brehon precedents (undertaken by Christian monks after the conversion of the British Isles as the bardic class (who were a class of Druids , and therefore pagan priests in the eyes of the church) died out.

            In other words Judge-made law is no modern invention as the wing nuts would have you believe, but the very heart and core of the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition.   It flexibility and adpatablity is in fact, a large  reason why it has  gradually won out over Cannon and Code based legal systems worldwide.

            Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

            by Magorn on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 09:34:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Winner! (none / 0)

          It's mighty convenient, is it not, that the "original intent" doctrine allows them to claim civil rights, abortion, the new deal, or what the hell ever progress has been made over the course of America's history not only can be ignored but must be ignored or the consequences will be the destruction of the Republic.

          What great fortune, for them, that such a neat theory just so happens to support their arguments in such a way as you would think it was designed after the arguments were thought up.

          Except, of course, when it does not, In those cases it is promptly ignored of course.

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:33:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  haha (1.75 / 4)

      leave it to armando to take something obvious (and apparently revealed on c-span) and try to make it into an illustration of how well connected/important he is.  Don't ask me how I know, I just do.  Who cares how you know?  Certainly not me.  

      And I pre-emptively state that I will not respond to the fire and brimstone flame war which I'm sure is about to come my way.  I deserve it, but I just couldn't resist making the comment.

      •  So (none / 1)

        the 0 rating will go unchallenged. Excellent.

        Boy, will you iiots ever learn the difference between reporting a story and repeating a reported story?

        No, I am sure you will not. No doubt you think you break a story when you link to AP.

        Haha to you.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:25:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll see your zero and raise it. . . (none / 0)

          Although I disagree with the comment, I don't think it was seemly for you to troll rate it off people's screens yourself (I'm sure others would have done it for you if they thought in merited that sanction).  So I "3ed" it to put it back up.

          John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

          by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:38:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree (none / 0)

            And you violate the ratings system by doing so. It was perfectly seemly. My rating was that it was a troll's comment. And it is.

            A similar sentiment was stupidly expressed by Pounder. And I rated it not at all.

            So you chose to give a false rating to go against mine? That's ratings abise LArry.
             

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:42:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  hey now ! (none / 0)

              What was stupid about pointing out that that bit of info was reported on C-span last night ? Jeez now reporting news is stupid ? LOL

              I did take a little dig, but gosh, all in fun (hehe might have gave that away!), you need to lighten up a little.

              •  It was stupid (none / 0)

                because I was reporting that I knew, not that C-Span knew.

                Because I had my OWN sourcing. You assumed C-Span, someone else assumed Ed Shultz. So happens the AP had LAST NIGHT.

                I had it too. But promised not to run it until just before the Press conference this morning.

                It was really stupid of you frankly.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:49:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I didnt assume (none / 0)

                  you heard it from C-span at all.

                  Frankly it has been a pretty obvious and open secret for a while.

                  also pretty obvious that the embargo put on you others didnt bother to heed. It's a small hill of beans your getting snotty over here.

                  I was just making a light hearted comment - now i am wishing i hadn't.

          •  You seemly to be confused (none / 0)

            by the rating stystem, Larry. One zero--even if it is Armando's--does not disappear a comment. You need two to do that.  
      •  Who cares that you don't care how he..... (none / 0)

        knew?  Certainly not me.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
        Blue House Diaries

        by Cathy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:32:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I care. . . (none / 0)

        Who cares how you know?

        I care about the sourcing of reports like this, since it helps to gauge the potential accuracy of a story.

        John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

        by LarryInNYC on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:39:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i care about sourcing of stories as well (none / 0)

          but only in a case where verification is required.  The fact that PFAW did indeed come out against roberts makes it irrelevant who the source is.  In other cases, like leaked info regarding the plame/rove issue, sourcing is obviously critical.  
  •  Years Ago (none / 0)

    When I was in law school, I did some research for a professor on the history of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.  What I found, in a nutshell, is that most of the enumerated rights were rights that Americans essentially enjoyed as British citizens under British law.  E.g., the Fifth Amendment.

    Now Britian, does not have a Constitution.  It's laws are derived from Magna Carta and court decisions and some other laws.

    I always thought it would be interesting to see if any of our precious Bill of Rights rights actually derived from early court decisions.  I.e. if it wasn't for early "activist judges" we would never have the right against self-incrimination or the right preventing the state to take property without just compensation.

    It would really take the wind out of the whole Originist argument.

  •  This NEEDS to be discussed/debated (none / 0)


     but the problem is, it's difficult for many, if not most, Americans to wrap their minds around.  But the alternative is that the Right Wing keeps putting judges on various benches "under the radar" and the water of facsism (I don't use that word lightly) and oligarchy keeps getting turned up while the American frogs continue to gently parboil...

    And excellent diary by zenbowl is up right now on the related outrage of Right Wing Judicial Activism, here:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/24/91127/0059

    In that diary's comments, I write on the hypocrisy of Right Wingnut Judges who care not one whit about "the people", but are, in fact, willing bureaucratic thugs waging war against the American consumer and several hundred years of Anglo-American jurisprudential doctrine and law.  Americans should be angry about this...

     BenGoshi
    __________________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:14:44 AM PDT

  •  Scalia and others (none / 0)

    claim to oppose legislative intent as a basis for interpretation as too easily manipulated both by legislators (inserting their interpretation into the record regardless of how many people support that view).

    I am sypathetic to this view, but I would apply the same argument to Scalia's use of "tradition" which means something loosely like "contextual history."  It too is subject to incomplete or manipulated versions of "history" and results in what I refer to as "advocacy history" or the use of incomplete context to make a historical argument about some textual aspect of the constitution.

    I am certainly a person who sides with the enlightenment and think that the Constitution is best understood and employed considering the "evolving standards of decency" which our society should always be striving toward.

    The textualists cannot interpret in a vaccuum.  They must rely on other modalities of interpretation.  Certyainly the text is the starting point, but it is in every case only that.  The question really is whether you apply the text to novel situations in a progressive (enlightened) way or if you try to rely on a backward-looking static interpretation.

    The latter inevitably further empowers those with power and relies on a past which was built on racist subjugation and inequality.  That seems to be the dividing line of the interpretation debate to me.

    I am somewhat sympathetic to this view --

    Save your tears for the living

    by immanentize on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:15:12 AM PDT

    •  Huh? (none / 0)

      You are sympathetic to the view that judges should ignore legislative intent in interpreting statutes? Sorry, that is just nuts.

      Further I am certain Scalia does not espouse such a view.

      I have to question the entirety of your comment.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:18:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I take that back (none / 0)

        the rest of your comment is pretty good.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:19:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks Armando.... (none / 0)

          Legislative History and Legislative Intent are two different things, and I was a little sloppy about conflating the two.  That said, Scalia really does seem to dislaike both -- in principle if not practice.  Although intent might be a better if discoverable, both are capable of manipulation -- the first in the legislative record, the second by advocates/judges when arguing a point.

          I think we almost completely agree on this ....

          Thanks for the thoughtful discussion topic.

          Save your tears for the living

          by immanentize on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 08:50:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Legislative intent (none / 0)

        Scalia and others have criticized using legislative intent because it's pretty difficult to know what the intent of the legislature was.  It's possible that some legislators voted for a law for one reason and some voted for it for a different reason.  

        It's not an unreasonable argument.  I just don't agree with it because the alternative sources of interpretation are just as bad.

        •  Wait up (none / 0)

          Deemphasizing legislative intent, and let's be clear, he speaks on this more as a question of Constitutional interpretation, not statutory intepretation. is not IGNORING.

          You have all distorted it.

          Pretty unfair to Scalia frankly. Only a complete idiot would argue for IGNORING it.

          Indeed, intent is not what is even meant if you ask me. But rather the legislative RECORD.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:32:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  actually, he does. (none / 0)

            Read that opinion again.  Or his concurrence in US v Taylor (1990), which I reprint in its entirety:
            I join in the Court's opinion except for Part II, which examines in great detail the statute's legislative history. The examination does not uncover anything useful (i. e., anything that tempts us to alter the meaning we deduce from the text anyway), but that is the usual consequence of these inquiries (and a good thing, too). What is noteworthy, however, is that in this case it is hard to understand what we would have done if we had found anything useful. The Court says, correctly, that the statutory term "burglary" has a "generally accepted contemporary meaning" which must be given effect and which may not be modified by the rule of lenity. Ante, at 596, 598. But if the meaning is so clear that it cannot be constricted by that venerable canon of construction, surely it is not so ambiguous that it can be constricted by the sundry floor statements, witness testimony, and other legislative incunabula that the Court discusses. Is it conceivable that we look to the legislative history only to determine whether it displays, not a less extensive punitive intent than the plain meaning (the domain of the rule of lenity), but a more extensive one? If we found a more extensive one, I assume we would then have to apply the rule of lenity, bringing us back once again to the ordinary meaning of the statute. It seems like a lot of trouble.

            I can discern no reason for devoting 10 pages of today's opinion to legislative history, except to show that we have given this case close and careful consideration. We must find some better way of demonstrating our conscientiousness.

            •  Legislative HISTORY (none / 0)

              is not legislative intent.

              And frankly, Scalia's caustic words in the end, mean little. He will look to it if the text is ambiguous one assumes.

              And that seems right to me.

              Moreover, he claims to search for the original intent in the Constitution and one wonders how in hell he does that. Bark worse than his bite on THIS point.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:47:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not to keep this side-issue going (none / 1)

                but I will anyway -- I really do think Scalia really is criticizing legislative intent, not just legislative history. Page 17 of "A Matter of Interpretation" has Scalia stating that "it is the law that governs, not the intent of the lawgiver".

                I think he allegedly relies upon canons of construction rather than legislative intent. Doesn't make sense to me, but I think you're giving Scalia too much credit.

                Democrats will fight for a Renewed Deal with the American people.

                by Hoyapaul on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 07:50:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If that quote is correct (none / 0)

                  then I stand corrected.

                  But not completely. To understand an ambiguous law, it is helpful to try and discern the intent. That is a canon of construction.

                  When did Scalia throw