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I think most regular readers of the Daily Kos may have detected a distinct change in the nature of the posts on the front page.  President Gimmick was introduced, and the new meme to be pushed here appears to be that President Obama is a groveling beaten lump that still believes in unicorns.

Fair enough people have their opinions and the front page is as legitimate a place to express them as anywhere, however what if the opinions were hyperbolic not because of sound analytical thought,  or for truly held personal beliefs, but for the reason of “driving traffic”?    Would that be cynical?  Would that be an example of what most of us find disgusting with the MSM that they would blow up non-existent stories or hype emotion for ratings, but in this case clicks?  Is the netroots supposed to be better than that?

Follow me over the fold to see what I’m talking about.

Like this diarist I was disturbed by the front page article by BrooklynBadBoy  Please, Markos...! I told him so in his post as did many others, however that is not at issue what is more disturbing to me is a comment in the above diary made by BrooklynBadBoy answering some criticism.

* [new] I drive a LOT of traffic Bob. (4+ / 0-)
We don't need to become Harper's, a great magazine with high end demographics, but nobody ever sees. Don't need to be Us either. But we can get beyond stuff that only appeals to high income white males over 50 from time to time.
I think i've been too conservative in broadening our audience of readers.
But ill take your critique under consideration. I respect your opinion.
Im trying to find the right voice,

but my editors tell me 'let it rip!

'

link to quote

Yes, of course a website is in business to make money, I mean it’s not like we’re in this to improve our nation the world etc, hey everyone has to get paid, and I don’t begrudge BBB or Markos doing so either even when they decorated this site with every repulsive Republicans mug in the world during the last election season, but this was interesting.

* [new] Nope. (1+ / 0-)
As long as you click it, I get paid.
Sucker.
a spook who sits by the door
by brooklynbadboy on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 08:50:34 PM PST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Link to quote

So is it fair to ask if the editors of the Daily Kos have now decided to let her rip in order to drive clicks as opposed to drive and expound on sound policy in support of the Democratic Party?   If there has been an editorial decision by the people who work on the masthead of this place to change into a click generator as opposed to a place to share and exchange ideas shouldn’t there be an announcement?  So what do you think Kossacks?  It’s Friday night maybe I’m being cynical, but the vibe I get here is attack the Presidents manhood = traffic = money am I wrong?

Update: From Susan Gardner of the front page...yeah you're wrong.

Several problems with your reasoning (3+ / 0-)
Most importantly, there is no monolithic entity known as "the front page." What interests or motivates one writer may not interest another at all. There are more than a dozen writers on the front page, all with their different interests and views.

Secondly, there is no requirement for any writer to write on any specific thing. Or take any particular point of view.

Thirdly, given how many people declared they were leaving over criticism of the president, I'd say you'd have to be a pretty moronic businessperson to assume you'd get more traffic from criticizing Obama.

We aim for high traffic based on allowing a platform upon which Democrats can post, analyze and organize for activism. We aim for high traffic based on the belief that ordinary passionate citizens want to discuss, debate and strategize about the news of the day.

Neither Markos nor I tell any writer what they can or cannot write about on the front page, or what line they should take. That's their decision. At the most, if a writer has shown an interest in something, I might pass along an article I find, but in all my time as executive editor, I've never told someone they have to write about something.

And yeah, I'm the one who tells writers to let 'er rip. Because I want good writing and I don't want good writers operating out of fear. And by the way, I'd recommend that for diarists as well. Let 'er rip. We're a strong, passionate partisan community. We can take it.

Ok so i'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Another update from Susan, and I don't necessarily agree with everything she is saying here, but it is very worthy of being seen up top.

I want to add something else ... (3+ / 0-)
Now that I have y'all's ears. I understand how everyone is upset with what's being characterized as the bashing of Obama. Let me explain the several reasons I think this is happening.

In my view of the site, the FP writers basically set a big, long cafeteria table for discussion of current events, through a progressive/Democratic perspective. The community drives the interest. The diarists set up parallel tables for discussion. It's a banquet hall! We're feasting on news, analysis, strategizing and opinion! We get loud, angry, boisterous ... but in working through all the stages about a specific piece of news, I think we end up clarifying a lot for each other. It can sometimes look and feel painful, but I think it works.
To the people who complain we're bashing Democrats instead of Republicans: We have zero influence on Republicans. We have NO hope of changing anything there. However, laying out how to fight for a stand-alone middle-class tax cut and expressing frustration with our Democratic leaders over their tactics (or lack of them) has slightly more chance of influence. Not a lot, but slightly. Putting pressure on Democrats is the only viable option we have because Republicans are not in our realm. We are NOT their base; we are the Democratic base. And we need Democrats to get how frustrated we are.
I think right now we're going through a very tumultuous period of reassessment and disillusionment. The anger, I think, is a shedding of skin. We thought a Democratic president and a Democratic majority in Congress would get us what we wanted. It didn't. We're pissed. But once we see that, we can pick up other organizing tools at hand (seeking out primary challengers, using comment periods at federal agencies, concentrating on building our progressive media infrastructure, keeping track of Congressional committee meetings and when the best time is to pressure about legislative language, etc.). Practical activism is going to come out of this, but being angry at the behavior of our electeds right now is just a natural first part of the process of realizing WE are going to have to do more than just elect.
I'm hoping that the launch of DK4, which will have enormous capabilities for specialized group formation, will help us get into gear on effective activism.

Where I disagree is that more than setting the table the front page also sets the tone.  When the President is refered to as a groveling lump that is the sort of non policy disrespect that gives license to the sort of acrimony that makes people leave.  The people she refers to as we is not the Democratic base it is the Daily Kos/netroots base which does not accurately reflect the Democratic one.

Originally posted to An Adept's Journey on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:41 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Tipped and rec'd (10+ / 0-)

      Because it is certainly an issue that people need to consider when they are reading articles at places whose owners make money by generating traffic.

      •  It's Not About Kos Making Money (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u, soothsayer99

        I've been posting on Kos for over two years now.
        I've been corrected, for whatever from time to time.
        Kos Is A Liberal Blog. Can't Be Bought!

        It's In The Comments All Over, Not Just Front Page!
        That the trashing of Obama is going on.
        As I've said before, and now update this statement.
        We know each other a little, but we have no way of knowing who's a troll,
        (unless they're a known Kossack and of course, then we know they're not one).
        I always check the diaries and half the argumentative ones have few or no diaries on Kos!

        I heard that the right wing blogs are very quiet since the mid-term elections.
        Yeah, that's because they're all over here
        and other liberal blogs, trying to brainwash
        and demoralize us!

        They can spin anything said anyway they want!

        I got shouted down last night for defending the President!
        Totally against the flame rules the way that diarist lit into me.
        But I kept my cool!
        Kossacks Rule!
        And have taught me well!

        Commentors Have A Certain Freedom of Speech
        But I think we've been infiltrated!

        Divide And Conquer The Oldest Trick In The Book!

        Methods: Hyperbole, to confuse.

        Aggression, to intimidate. Scare people off, who are too smart!

        Distract, From Real Issues
        Hard To Understand Wording, But Only Of Democratic Supposed Wrongdoings.
        (those not politically savy will be kept searching, forever)!
        Instead of e-mailing government officials
        of their grievances.
        Contact Government

        For Every Ten Democrats Who Contact Their Government Officials,
        Thirty republicans do the same.

        This Is A Great Song To All The Good People
        From Me, Who Doesn't Need Anything From Anyone!


        Three Wise Quotes

        1. If It Looks To Good To Be True, It Probably Is!
        1. Caveat Emptor!
        1. The One That Comes To You With The Deal Is The Traitor! ( Don Corleone, Godfather III )

                                             
        Peace And Justice
        ga*

        Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga* Be The Change You Want To See In The World. Ghandi

        by rebel ga on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:55:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Call me old-fashioned, but the one who ......... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Willa Rogers

      .. pays the bills is entitled to run his site however the hell he damn well pleases.  

      Regardless over whether the diarist's conspiracy theories are correct or more delusional bullshit, the owner of a site really does have more rights to that site than a group of freeloaders.  

      "I wonder how many times you have to be hit on the head before you find out who's hitting you?" Harry Truman - 1948

      by ThAnswr on Sat Dec 04, 2010 at 01:11:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I guess it's as fair as assuming other things (7+ / 0-)

    people have thrown at folks in our own party, lately.

    But, like many of those accusations, I think the reality is something different and we should feel free to question and even complain, but don't see the need to incite riots based on potentially extreme innuendo.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:47:57 PM PST

    •  ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adept2u

      But, like many of those accusations, I think the reality is something different and we should feel free to question and even complain

      "Creepy little putz you hang around school yards too, worm?" trashablanca Nov 22, 2010

      by indycam on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:48:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The motivation for more clicks (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sberel, wader, blueoasis, Adept2u

      could as easily be a desire for greater influence, a possibility not offered by the diarist.  Certainly maximizing one's influence is a legitimate goal of a political blog?  I don't know the specifics of this situation, but I have certainly seen plenty of criticism of influential leftists by attempting to make their legitimate function--persuasion--into a matter of ego or craven money-grubbing.  Ironically, the criticism seems to be motivated not so much by a concern for purity as by disagreement with opinions.  The same people would be unlikely to criticize BWD for her attention-grabbing headlines out of commitment to this same principle.

      Many of the nations billionaires are on the warpath. They want more more more. -Sen. Sanders

      by geomoo on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:49:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I also feel there's a difference of opinion (11+ / 0-)

        that at least initiated the germ for this diarist's research, but wouldn't characterize them as cleanly in a specific camp, frankly.

        I like the Front Page when it reports and provides context to help us understand the significance of what they are conveying.  When they become too editorial, I'd prefer more of a disclaimer from that particular writer, at times.

        A minority of the recent stuff shown has real merit on the basic points, but the added melodrama leaves me dry and only seems to help add fuel to useless, circular firing squads at the site among regular participants who probably have more in common on goals than postures on tactics or perceptions will allow to rise above the shite.

        "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

        by wader on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:07:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Change by ideas doesn't really require any number (6+ / 0-)

    of people but democratic change does. Attracting eyeballs and getting the brains behind them interested and active is important to the site mission, More and Better Democrats, which I take to mean not just office holders but voters as well.

    An exiting front page fosters that. To a certain extent the choir hears the basic sermons repeatedly, but so what?

    DeFEUDIATE MY FSCKING AWESOME BLOG, KOSsacks!!!

    Peace?

    by aoeu on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:49:46 PM PST

  •  What bothers me, I've already said (22+ / 0-)

    elsewhere, but it's that the specific language used was basically parodic and juvenile, to the point that I was embarrassed to be reading it on the FP.

    And then if the explanation for that is to somehow appeal to more minorities and young people, it strikes me as as insulting as when record label executives push to include angrier, more offensive, more vulgar language (in this case it was both in the post, but also in other threads where the N-word was being tossed around) to push for those sales. And who eats that up the most? Who hasn't seen the introduction to "Office Space" with the infamous Michael Bolton scene. It's with good reason that bell hooks took issue with this (as did Edward Rhymes) in "Outlaw Culture." Let me dig up a link to the article.

    "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:54:20 PM PST

  •  ?? Someone asked bbb (10+ / 0-)

    when Rupert Murdoch, Fox News' creator, is going to send him (bbb) a check for his writing and bbb responded with a sarcastic "as long as you click it, I get paid" and this somehow means that the front page only cares about money?

  •  Or maybe... (9+ / 0-)

    ...He IS a grovelling beaten lump who still believes in unicorns.

    Look, I can't speak for anyone else, but the Obama Kool-Aid has sure as hell worn off for me.  For whatever reason, he has shown himself to be unwilling to defend his accomplishments, and he seems to believe in nothing other than some ephemeral notion of "bringing people together."  He doesn't get that no matter how much he woos, the Republicans don't want to hold hands.  And he acts as if the dirty work of politics is beneath him.

    I have often wondered how much he thinks about why he wanted this job in the first place, and whether he wants to keep it.  At this point, I kind of hope he decides he does not.  If he's not going to lead, then he should step aside in 2012 for someone who will.

    "We must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom." - Kodos

    by Jon Stafford on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:57:34 PM PST

  •  You totally mischaracterize my comment. (13+ / 0-)

    Which, if you publish the whole exchange, counters your conspiracy theory.

    a spook who sits by the door

    by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 05:58:26 PM PST

    •  I included the links (6+ / 0-)

      In order to give access to the full exchange.  The so called conspiracy theory may not even be a bad thing hence all the question the marks what did your editors mean then by let her rip.    

      "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

      by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:01:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It means speak freely. I do. (12+ / 0-)

        For you to think it means sensationalism says more about your opinion of Daily Kos than it does about my writing.

        a spook who sits by the door

        by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:06:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That could be very well true n/t (7+ / 0-)

          "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

          by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:06:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why all of the gratuitous N-word use (12+ / 0-)

          when you're in mainly whiter, older company?

          That's the part that sits strangely with me still, if I step aside from the actual content of your FP post, which was just rhetorically silly.

          What does the use of the N-word do to advance the narrative in this particular political venue, and to whom is it meant to appeal?

          Fair questions, I think.

          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:15:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't. (3+ / 0-)

            Its a rhetorical liscense only black people get to exercise, either in literature, film, comedy or blogging.

            Live with it.

            a spook who sits by the door

            by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:22:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I support that (9+ / 0-)

              completely. Strongly even. I can't speak to whether or not black folks should, or should not, use the N-word. That the word is contested is something I'm deeply aware of, and have heard many arguments about. The use of it between African-Americans is more than none of my business.

              I can only say that, as a white person, I am profoundly uncomfortable when it's used around me since there's no way to address this back. It shuts the conversation down, in effect. It also seems needlessly inflammatory and over-the-top. If this site is mainly white, which it is, how does the line between "start using the N* word freely" and "be racially sensitive" get handled with that kind of rhetoric?

              To get back to my question, what does the use of the N-word do to advance the narrative in this particular political venue, and to whom is it meant to appeal?

              "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:27:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, you watch Dave Chappelle or read (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Adept2u

                James Baldwin and just fold up because of the word?

                a spook who sits by the door

                by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:34:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I don't (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  scribe, yella dawg, sherijr, Adept2u, princss6

                  but you're conflating literary and other aesthetic works (Chapelle and Baldwin; I'll add Ralph Ellison into the list of honorable writers who use that term openly) with politically persuasive rhetorical works (blogging on the Daily Kos).

                  Is the same language appropriate to each? I would strongly say they aren't.

                  "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

                  by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:37:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What aboutwhen you overhear black people (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Adept2u

                    using it? Offended?

                    a spook who sits by the door

                    by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:39:32 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Adept2u, lightshine

                      "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

                      by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:40:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Not really, to be honest (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Adept2u, soothsayer99

                      That's in personal conversation, which is also not "aesthetic language" or "political language." Three very, very different language situations.

                      Also, online, you can't "see" racial privilege. Including the privilege to converse in one way or another. So it's a decontextualized term here. And I'm still not clear what the point is in using it. It's a total bomb to lob. Why not just say "That's racist." Or something otherwise expressing displeasure without inciting confusion?

                      "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

                      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:42:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Interesting. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mahakali overdrive, Adept2u

                        You should email me. I'll send you some links.

                        a spook who sits by the door

                        by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:46:57 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Hm. Okay. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          tmo, Adept2u, princss6

                          I'll email you. Curious to see what you have.

                          I have to get back to work now.

                          I hope you've understood my questions have very much been in earnest, however, and appreciate the dialogue.

                          And just to clarify my lack of discomfort about said terms, my point there is that it's not my place to judge others; I'm well aware of the ongoing debate between AA's surrounding the term, but I'm not here to tell anyone what to think, do, or say. I can only judge my own reactions to what strike me as racially loaded terms. Read that bell hooks piece if you never have. It's just damned beautiful. I just taught it to my college class about a week ago. It should be required reading for living human beings, IMHO. All of ethnicities have their hot button topics. Many are best worked out behind-the-scenes rather than in public view. If you were trying to point out the poster's racism, I understand that. It just didn't carry. Not like ever statement online does. So at least I understand this now. Thanks.

                          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

                          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:54:46 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  BBB, I disagree. (4+ / 0-)

              I am most offended when a black person uses that word. Yes, I know Richard Pryor used it and got mad laughs. Bill Cosby didn't and got paid , too.
              Chris Rock and some of the others use it. But I don't like it. I don't use it!  I don't consider it a term of endearment.

              I consider it vulgar, spiteful, demeaning word especially when used by black on black.

              It doesn't hold any shock value for me. It is a very sad word with a lot of hate in it's history.  

              I am a woman and I don't call myself a bitch and don't want no one else calling me a bitch either.

              But that's me. You do you. If it makes you feel good to use the word to make money, get laughs, or just cuz you like using it, go right ahead. You don't need my approval or any one else.

              Let it rip!  Freedom of speech says you can.

              "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

              by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:34:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly. nt (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Adept2u

                a spook who sits by the door

                by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:37:50 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm a woman. (5+ / 0-)

                Used to write a column entitled "The Opinionated Bitch." Got more angry letters about that than about my highly opinionated opinions, which struck me kind of funny.

                It's just words, used regularly all over America all the time. My father told me that cursing was a sign of inferior vocabulary, and I believe that to a certain extent. But there are occasions when a pithy word or two expresses something better than a tortured word salad ever could.

                Just sounds people make, letters strung together. There are much more important things to get upset about in this world.

                Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

                by Joieau on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:12:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I definitely believe this... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sardonyx, blindyone, Adept2u, Joieau

                  My father told me that cursing was a sign of inferior vocabulary, and I believe that to a certain extent

                  and I'd make that statement more strongly, that too frequent cursing shows lack of imagination. When I read something with "fuck" in every sentence, I wonder if that's just the best the writer can do. Some Brits can do the best call-outs I've ever heard or read, and do it with barely an expletive.

                  Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person. -Jan Edwards

                  by SoCalSal on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:48:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well... (7+ / 0-)

                    that same very proper father (a senior Naval officer) who never even let out a 'hell' or 'damn' in my presence, got awakened in the middle of the night with a phone call when I was 17. It was the police, they'd arrested my 15-year old brother for vagrancy on his way back from walking his girlfriend home (basic hippie harassment). He was to come bail my brother out, which Dad had absolutely no intention of doing because my brother was not a vagrant and broke no laws. They'd get no extortion out of this. He let loose with a tirade of the most colorful cursing - in several languages! - I'd ever heard from anybody, anywhere, before or since. I didn't know what half of it meant but I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking nice about their mothers.

                    He picked up my brother, received a heartfelt apology from all the police present at the station, and cooly informed them that if they tried such a thing again they'd get to meet a large Marine lawyer and pay my brother's way through college. They never did it again.

                    I guess someone who spent 35 years in the Navy had to learn a few good epithets along the way... ;-)

                    Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

                    by Joieau on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:09:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Good for your dad! (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sardonyx, jabney, princesspat, Joieau

                      That proves that cursing can be very effective in some circumstances.

                      I was about 17 the first time I heard my dad cuss, a big whopper, "Damnation!" when he caused a car accident. Much, much later he developed Alzheimers and his language became more colorful. Maybe that came from working on the railroad.

                      Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person. -Jan Edwards

                      by SoCalSal on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:31:01 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm older now (5+ / 0-)

                        and have been through kids and grandkids. I understand what set him off that night, because we lost our son from a traffic accident when he was 21. He was awakened from sleep by a call from the police about his son... it had to have scared him half to death in the scant seconds before they told him they just wanted him to come bail the kid out from bogus charges that could never stand in a million years against a 15-year old high school student living at home.

                        His response to that was entirely reasonable in my view, given the provocation. It's a good thing they didn't send a beat cop to the door with that message or that beat cop might have suffered a badly broken face.

                        There are indeed times when cussing is the MOST proper response, leaving absolutely no room for misunderstanding about the reaction evoked, and doing it well enough to impress the type of people who cuss on a regular basis. Flowery words sometimes just won't do the trick.

                        As for withering (but well-spoken) put-downs, my Mom was Queen of that. My hero, because I'm the person who suffers in sputtering silence and only thinks of the perfect put-down later when it's all over.

                        Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

                        by Joieau on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 09:43:26 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  I see (4+ / 0-)

              so you can regularly impugn the President's manhood on a blog that's dominated by white men, but if anyone challenges your use of the word "nigger" in this context, they should:

              Live with it.

              Nice.

              Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

              by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:59:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I don't want to see (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u, Lost and Found, soothsayer99

              the n word used by anyone. I don't care what color you  are. It is offensive painful and should not be written.  If I had seen it I would have HR'd.  I don't have to "live with it" and your smug, arrogant in-your-face attitude is not working with me at all.  No other group of people accepts slurs on this site and African Americans don't have to accept it either, remember that

              Blessed are the peacemakers

              by lightshine on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:44:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Actually no (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skohayes, soothsayer99, lightshine

              Now even in the black community you arent saying nigger around grandmothers unless you're willing to take one in the mouth.  I'm very careful about how I use it and especially here less I give someone license to use it who doesnt understand its only a black license.  I'll use it to illustrate like how the teabaggers called the congressmen nigger in the street cause it should sting there, but the kind of play nigga I saw in your front page was wrong wrong wrong.

              I like to think of it this way in reality how about you?

              "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

              by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:12:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  So does this imply... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sherijr, Adept2u, Anima, soothsayer99

          that at one point you were told NOT to speak freely.

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:37:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lightshine

          It means speak freely. I do.

          You said you drive traffic.  I know you think this is all about you BBB, but it really isn't.

          Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

          by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:37:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I do. (0+ / 0-)

            Which is good. The more the better.

            a spook who sits by the door

            by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:38:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Duh. (4+ / 0-)

              Of course you speak freely.  Yes BBB, you're a freethinker who's not going to change.  Good for you.  Got it.  Guess what?  I think freely too, and I've used the "n-word" from time to time to make a point too.  I've criticized the President too, so there's "proof" that I'm "rational" just like you.  Yay for me too.  I applaud the fact that you speak freely, as do your many fans in your predominantly white over 50 male audience.

              However, that's not what's at issue.  The issue that when you start talking about the traffic you drive to this site in the context of a statement in which your profess to finding your voice, that raises ethical questions about what motivates your arguments.  When you quip about getting paid per click, that raises the same ethical questions.

              Your editor likely wouldn't have bothered to make any statement in this thread if your statements weren't clouded by such questions.  Do the math homie.  Your editor kindly cleared the air tonight because she had too.

              Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

              by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:57:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Its an issue for you and your clique. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jabney

                But methinks ill ignore it. But if Susan chose not to, I respect that.

                a spook who sits by the door

                by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:09:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I once got Hr'd into oblivion (4+ / 0-)

                  For referring to another group of people here as a clique.  That is something Susan should look into.  I'm still in that thread and in black kos if you have questions or anything to say about what I said there you can say it there.

                  "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

                  by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:21:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Always keep (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fou, Pilkington

                    plenty of goodwill to balance out the fucked up shit you might say. Nobody is perfect and some, like me, are just major assholes.

                    I've done it and i'm still around, enemies and all.

                    a spook who sits by the door

                    by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:35:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I gotta say, I'm loving me some BBB (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      brooklynbadboy

                      right now, brother! Not the criticism of Obama, but the willingness to stand up for your right and obligation to speak the truth as you see it, in your own unique voice, using the words that you find most appropriate and effective to communicate the point.

                      Myself, I never use the N-word. Not in print, not on the Intertubes, not with friends. But plenty of my friends do, and I have no issue whatsoever with it. Sometimes, there's just not a better word available to them to express a certain thought. And I don't care if they use it around just black people, or white people also, or Latinos, or Asians, whatever. It's their choice, and it's not for me to judge.

                      I honestly don't know why some people obsess as they do about the perceived demographics of Daily Kos. As if any "over 50 white men" aren't perfectly free to click over the Jack and Jill and see what they're saying. Or to Felony Fights for that matter.

                      We live in an increasingly small and interconnected world, where everyone gets to see what everyone else is doing. Trying to keep the N-word somehow sequestered away in exclusively black forums is a futile effort.

                      By all means, whatever you want to say, however you want to say it, "let 'er rip!"

      •  A link assuming no one would read (0+ / 0-)

        This is a common tactic by you, isn't it? You provide the link, but mischaracertizer (i can't use the word I would like to use) what the link says.

  •  I've said it many times: (13+ / 0-)

    Don't trust the opinions of those who have a vested interest in generating controversy.

    Pie fights drive clicks.  Clicks make money.  

    It is VERY difficult for even the most ethical of people to be unbiased when faced with direct financial incentives for behaving a certain way.

    Blogs make money when there is controversy, not when everyone is sitting around calmly talking about policy.  

    •  Each of the dairies written (6+ / 0-)

      by those with " a vested interes in generating controversy" should have it noted in the diary's title.

      Or posted on the blog prominently - that

      "Blogger, before jumping in the fray, beware you may be in play."

      "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

      by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:19:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do think (7+ / 0-)

        professional bloggers have an ethical need to share prominently, on their home page, that money is generated by site traffic.

        It may seem obvious, but the fact is the huge majority of blogs out there are just hobbies, something regular people do in their spare time, that generate 0 revenue for the owner.

        The small handful of big blogs that support their owners really should make it clear that the more people come here, the more money they make.

        •  I'm thinking that if it's not noted, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, Driver 8

          my first post will to ask the author if he/she is paid for the blog.  

          "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

          by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:37:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bloggers want it both ways (4+ / 0-)

            Journalists are required to let the reader know when they have a financial connection to anything they are writing about.

            Bloggers want the notoriety of journalists, but they don't want the constraints.

            •  and we the people become (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u, lightshine

              jaded cynics for good reason. everybody's got an angle on using the unsuspecting for monetary gain.

              don't trust anybody , don't believe a word written or spoken, less you can prove it independently.

              sad times.

              "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

              by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:50:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  however (5+ / 0-)

                a megaphone as big as this site is, handling the level of traffic it does, paying for polls, not to mention paid staff developing an entire new format (DK4), all this costs a lot of dough to get up and KEEP up and running, 24/7/365.

                I have watched this process unfold for 7 1/2 yrs, from when it was Kos's little blog until now, when it has become modest (not big) bucks. And the biggest boost to this community, imho, was when Kos turned it loose and let everybody in to say their piece.

                It never started out as a business enterprise.  We have what we have here because he was able to figure out how to generate some revenue, via the advertising, which everybody in blogostan tried to do if they could.  By having the money, he could grow the site, and the vision.

                I hope to shit Kos made some dough for himself doing it, because i think it's been a pretty amazing odyssey and he has fostered a pretty amazing community.

                And Kos is by no means the brightest bulb on the marquee of DKos.

                don't always believe what you think...

                by claude on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:08:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey Claude, (5+ / 0-)

                  I'm not saying don't make money. I'm asking for full disclosure that's all. Because while money is being made, there are also calls for action, donations, support for candidates, and most importantly, discussion about political candidates. Folks are persuaded, influenced, and inspired by what they read on this blog.

                  All I'm saying is transparency. Let me know who's paying you.

                  Same thing we are asking of our politicians, right?

                  "It's impossible to wake a man who is pretending to be asleep." - unknown

                  by looking and listening on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:14:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting discussion, but how important is it.. (5+ / 0-)

    I rarely read the front page of Dailkos, even though I spend a lot of time here.  The soul of this site is in the diaries and comments from regular users.

    Here we have both diversity, along with a mass sentiment, otherwise known as group think.  It takes a bit of skill to transcend the group think, and sometimes I succeed and other times fail, with extreme prejudice.  
    I'm not interested in the regular, professional writers on the front page.  They have motivations that are not the same as those of us who scour the fields of diaries, trying to engage others and perchance to advance our ideas.

    I am proud that I opposed the Health Care Bill, when there were many others who agreed with me, and then when the sea change made my opinions much less popular.  I ran the same poll over the course of months to quantify the changes, but I kept doing the research, exploring adverse consequences that now are appearing in the N.Y. Times.

    I guess, this makes me happy that front pagers are generating revenue by more clicks on advertisers.  I have several hundred diaries and thousands of comments that Kos archives for no cost to me.  And if he can get advertisers to pay for the hard disks and service fees, that sounds fine with me.

  •  Wondered how long this would take. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Burned, blueoasis, ohmyheck

    I mean, can't win the arguments on the validity of the Presidency, so you attack the motivation of the diarist; specifically, the financial motivation.

    I remember a certain photo diary series wherein even the most vague suggestion that the diarist might be influenced by financial gain was cause for a donut fest...

    The inadequate is the enemy of the necessary.

    by JRandomPoster on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:18:32 PM PST

  •  If you believe that, and consider it to be a bad (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Adept2u, Joieau

    idea, then wouldn't you want to not go into such diaries, because your doing so generates revenue in a way you think lacking in moral reason?

    And all of the back and forth pie warring, driving yet further revenue?

    Good Gods, you're being played for suckers by the very people you thought were providing you a platform to express your ideas!

  •  Hmmm (8+ / 0-)

    It’s Friday night maybe I’m being cynical, but the vibe I get here is attack the Presidents manhood = traffic = money am I wrong?

    Seems to me that you are hanging an awful lot of insight onto comments which probably cannot bear the weight.

    Who here has not written snarky comments? This does not look so much like an attack on his manhood as an appraisal of his political competence. Not the same thing at all. Questions of political policy and the strategies necessary to attain them are what this site was designed to discuss, seems to me. How can one elect better Democrats if people are not educated in the issues such that they can recognize them by their actions?

    I vote for cynical which, these days, is a quality that I hold in high esteem. I think we could use a lot more cynics. As Jefferson said:

    "It is the highest duty of every citizen to question their government."

    Timely words.

  •  I think it's more cynical (5+ / 0-)

    to assume that finances have absolutely no motivating hold on people who make a living by blogging.

  •  When you start getting pics of scantily clad (7+ / 0-)

    women and celebrity gossip, you'll know for sure.

    "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

    by ban nock on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:29:58 PM PST

  •  Just an fyi (11+ / 0-)

    But we can get beyond stuff that only appeals to high income white males over 50 from time to time.

    It ain't working.

    As to: "A spook who sits at the door". all I can do is shake my head anymore.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/30/102745/165 Barack Obama, DailyKos 2005

    by sherijr on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:31:40 PM PST

  •  Several problems with your reasoning (25+ / 0-)

    Most importantly, there is no monolithic entity known as "the front page." What interests or motivates one writer may not interest another at all. There are more than a dozen writers on the front page, all with their different interests and views.

    Secondly, there is no requirement for any writer to write on any specific thing. Or take any particular point of view.

    Thirdly, given how many people declared they were leaving over criticism of the president, I'd say you'd have to be a pretty moronic businessperson to assume you'd get more traffic from criticizing Obama.

    We aim for high traffic based on allowing a platform upon which Democrats can post, analyze and organize for activism. We aim for high traffic based on the belief that ordinary passionate citizens want to discuss, debate and strategize about the news of the day.

    Neither Markos nor I tell any writer what they can or cannot write about on the front page, or what line they should take. That's their decision. At the most, if a writer has shown an interest in something, I might pass along an article I find, but in all my time as executive editor, I've never told someone they have to write about something.

    And yeah, I'm the one who tells writers to let 'er rip. Because I want good writing and I don't want good writers operating out of fear. And by the way, I'd recommend that for diarists as well. Let 'er rip. We're a strong, passionate partisan community. We can take it.

    •  Thank you very much (10+ / 0-)

      I appreciate your response.  I would like to put it up in the diary as a very fair answer to the questions.

      "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

      by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:39:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, go for it (14+ / 0-)

        One thing: Keep in mind this site coalesced around a very strong voice with a very passionate viewpoint about politics. Markos has never pulled punches, worrying about traffic. Read his book, Taking On the System. There's a portion in there about the reaction to his infamous "Screw 'em" comments. Ads were pulled. Candidates disassociated themselves from the site. Other bloggers and allies condemned him. It really looked like everything he'd worked so hard to build was crumbling around him. Believe me, he knows the ramifications of what can happen when writers write passionate things. But he didn't back down.

        And he has the wisdom to know that when we tap a Hunter or a bbb or an Angry Mouse for the front page, yeah, we're going to hear about it. From users. From Villagers. From people that it makes uncomfortable. And we may even get ads pulled sometimes and lose users.

        But better that than telling the writers to muzzle themselves, especially when Markos (rightly) refuses to muzzle himself.

        Now I HAVE told several contributing editors over the years to tone it down in comments, but that's more because there's a disproportionate power play in a front-page author wailing on a commenter. And I have suggested (very, very rarely) that something would be better as a diary than as a front-page article (Markos posts meta as diaries, so that's a good example), or that the timing of a front-page post might not be wise in light of the minute-by-minute mood of the site and that we might want to wait a day to post. But I'd say I could count on one hand the times I've had to do any of these things.

        •  Susan, this is really insightful (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fou, Adept2u

          I appreciate the clarifications on this, personally.

          And now I'm REALLY getting back to work!

          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:02:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Indeed. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skohayes, mahakali overdrive, Adept2u

            The front page is the only reason I still find this place rewarding; and there have been a number of really good posts on it lately.  Steve Sinsinger's recent posts have been quite good, as have some of Jed Lewison's posts.

            I think that on balance, the front page has just the right amount of criticism/support vis-a-vis the President.  I agree with what's written on the FP about 90% of the time.

            Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

            by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:09:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I tend to read Jed's posts (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u

              and have always given him a lot of respect; he, and Barbara, are my favorite FP'ers. I find myself agreeing with many of their points. And Laurence Lewis, but I liked his work also when he was a diarist. He and I don't always see eye-to-eye on the issues, but he's someone whom I find it really hard to not respect, generally speaking. We've shared a disease. And I think he's sincere. And Angry Mouse, although I tend to miss her posts due to scheduling :(

              "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:26:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I want to add something else ... (12+ / 0-)

        Now that I have y'all's ears. I understand how everyone is upset with what's being characterized as the bashing of Obama. Let me explain the several reasons I think this is happening.

        1. In my view of the site, the FP writers basically set a big, long cafeteria table for discussion of current events, through a progressive/Democratic perspective. The community drives the interest. The diarists set up parallel tables for discussion. It's a banquet hall! We're feasting on news, analysis, strategizing and opinion! We get loud, angry, boisterous ... but in working through all the stages about a specific piece of news, I think we end up clarifying a lot for each other. It can sometimes look and feel painful, but I think it works.
        1. To the people who complain we're bashing Democrats instead of Republicans: We have zero influence on Republicans. We have NO hope of changing anything there. However, laying out how to fight for a stand-alone middle-class tax cut and expressing frustration with our Democratic leaders over their tactics (or lack of them) has slightly more chance of influence. Not a lot, but slightly. Putting pressure on Democrats is the only viable option we have because Republicans are not in our realm. We are NOT their base; we are the Democratic base. And we need Democrats to get how frustrated we are.
        1. I think right now we're going through a very tumultuous period of reassessment and disillusionment. The anger, I think, is a shedding of skin. We thought a Democratic president and a Democratic majority in Congress would get us what we wanted. It didn't. We're pissed. But once we see that, we can pick up other organizing tools at hand (seeking out primary challengers, using comment periods at federal agencies, concentrating on building our progressive media infrastructure, keeping track of Congressional committee meetings and when the best time is to pressure about legislative language, etc.). Practical activism is going to come out of this, but being angry at the behavior of our electeds right now is just a natural first part of the process of realizing WE are going to have to do more than just elect.

        I'm hoping that the launch of DK4, which will have enormous capabilities for specialized group formation, will help us get into gear on effective activism.

        •  Furthermore, I'd add (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slinkerwink

          that the focus on the president is rightly placed because he asked for the job. He is the party leader and we just lost the biggest majority in 40 years.

          He deserves some hard language.

          a spook who sits by the door

          by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:44:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Harsh language? (7+ / 0-)

            Um no he doesn't not from supporters and not from people who wish to be thought of as serious analyst.  I would take issue of Susan's characterization of what we thought and what we have a right to be angry with and I believe the session on the netroots that was devoted to outreach to non white members would have pointed that out.  I'm not sure you know this but the front page echos onto the the right side, and when front pagers start calling the President in terms like that it amplifies.  It makes the site look bad and costs support which I'm sure we can agree is no ones goal here.

            "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

            by Adept2u on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:54:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Susan. This would (3+ / 0-)

          make for a great Front Page article.  It would truly be a shame for Kossacks to have missed the comments you have made here. I believe that what you have just written here is extremely important for DKos readers to understand.

          Think about it anyway...thanks.

          Where have all the mainstream Republicans gone? Apparently they're working for the Democrats in DC.---James Kresnik

          by ohmyheck on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:52:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well... (6+ / 0-)

          To the people who complain we're bashing Democrats instead of Republicans: We have zero influence on Republicans.

          What about people who live in Red States?  What about base building?  We may not be able to influence electeds but the aim should be to woo Republican voters to stop believing the hype.  

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:01:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (6+ / 0-)

            But I think in this post-election/lame duck period, we're going to see people wanting to let off steam.

            In the new year .... oh, yeah. Big yeah. We need to talk to red staters -- in fact, I'd say for a while we should listen to apolitical and right-leaning voters before we open our mouths. And then we need to revisit our roots and principles, articulate our beliefs in having a system and laws that work for ordinary people, that protect our shared public places, etc.

            One of the things I was thinking of exploring on DK4 is having a place where people in red areas report back on simple conversations they have with non-crazy but right-leaning neighbors (no point in talking to rabid religious abortion foes, for example). I think a lot of liberals live in a bubble, and it makes them certain that the rightness of their beliefs is so damn obvious that only idiots would deny them.

            That doesn't build the base. It drives people away.

            And I'd love to have a group blog or place on the new site where liberals aren't necessarily trying to convert folks, but are actually simply listening to what they're talking about and worried about in bars, in lines at the grocery store, at the back-to-school night meeting. THAT is where we listen, process and finally reach out.

            We'll get to that. But this is a lame duck session, people are pissed about the election and I don't think we can get into base-building mode until we clear the air, work through the disappointment and figure out where each of talents can best be put to use to pressure the system to respond to the 99.9% of us who aren't pulling down a billion a year.

            •  I agree with this... (3+ / 0-)

              I think a lot of liberals live in a bubble, and it makes them certain that the rightness of their beliefs is so damn obvious that only idiots would deny them.

              Completely.  

              I don't know.  I'm motivated by adversity.  When things don't go my way, I'm figuring out plan b.  Yes, I guess people need a place to vent but they also need to be mindful of NOT burning bridges for when the site turns back to base-building.  

              Thanks for your clarifying responses.  

              the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

              by princss6 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:17:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  One of the best ideas I've yet heard around here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u

              Listen for a moment. Not to the crazies, or the ideological zealots, but to the persuadable people who shifted to the right in this election. It's insanity not to, because without them, we'll end up being the "regional party", with a shrinking base of support made up exclusively of people who live within 20 miles of large bodies of water.

    •  There are a few problems with your reasoning. (7+ / 0-)

      Most importantly, there is no monolithic entity known as "the front page." What interests or motivates one writer may not interest another at all. There are more than a dozen writers on the front page, all with their different interests and views.

      Secondly, there is no requirement for any writer to write on any specific thing. Or take any particular point of view.

      Yes but this doesn't mean that none of your writers are motivated by profit; and when one of your writers suggests even in jest that he "gets paid" that raises questions.  In light of that statement, I don't think there's anything wrong with this diarist's reasoning for asking those questions.

      Thirdly, given how many people declared they were leaving over criticism of the president, I'd say you'd have to be a pretty moronic businessperson to assume you'd get more traffic from criticizing Obama.

      Actually, this isn't true, but it does restore my faith that the kind of cynicism suggested here doesn't motivate your editorial decisions.  You'd likely make a ton of money bashing the President.  Ask Nate.  Angry partisans overwhelmingly dislike this President, and encouraging such traffic would certainly lead to increased revenue.

      Neither Markos nor I tell any writer what they can or cannot write about on the front page, or what line they should take. That's their decision. At the most, if a writer has shown an interest in something, I might pass along an article I find, but in all my time as executive editor, I've never told someone they have to write about something.

      I'm glad you chose to put some daylight between yourself and BBB's quips about clicks and payment.  I agree that that statement doesn't mean that his arguments are motivated by profit, but it's unseemly.  I'm glad you cleared the air.

      And yeah, I'm the one who tells writers to let 'er rip. Because I want good writing and I don't want good writers operating out of fear. And by the way, I'd recommend that for diarists as well. Let 'er rip. We're a strong, passionate partisan community. We can take it.

      I agree with this wholeheartedly.

      Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

      by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:47:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not paid. nt (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        claude, TheMomCat, blueoasis, Adept2u

        a spook who sits by the door

        by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:09:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Only staff is paid (10+ / 0-)

        Me, Joan, Jed, Meteor Blades and Barb. And sundry non-FP posting tech people and our general manager. All other contributing editors are not paid and have real lives and day jobs.

        And as bbb said in a comment the other night, we couldn't afford him even if we wanted him. ;-) You're getting his stuff gratis.

        And for the record, I didn't think there was anything "wrong" with the diarist asking the questions. I was answering them. I don't think there are any "wrong" questions if asked in good faith.

        •  Fair enough. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, soothsayer99

          But a few of us had no knowledge of this until now.  It's not unreasonable to assume that one of your writers is in fact paid if he says he is.

          Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

          by fou on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:22:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It is good to see MB is paid! (6+ / 0-)

          He deserves a raise if I may say so!

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:19:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Another question... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fou, Adept2u, soothsayer99

          Do you think it is important for non-paid staff to disclose their day jobs?  

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:21:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not unless it'd influence what they're writing (7+ / 0-)

            Just like diarists, we have a couple of front pagers who would probably take heat or damage their careers.

            Markos and I know what people do for a living, and we both attempt to be hyperaware of personal conflict in an issue. But it's tough, that line. Laura Clawson, for example, now works for Working America (she began there long after she'd been a contributing editor here) and when there's something about that entity that wants to get the word out in the progressive blogosphere, she diaries under "Working America." But she also knows a lot about labor issues in general -- and did even before she started working there -- and we don't want to lose access to the knowledge of the history of the labor movement.

            Over the past few years, most CE's have started using their own names as the medium gets legitimatized. But it's been their choice when to do so.

            And a majority of the FP writers are up front about it -- sometimes it helps them establish a bit of expertise (like Greg writing about public health matters ... when he's an M.D.). And I think the more a FP'er writes, the more of their own personal situation and history comes out, just mentioned in passing. But I also don't want to get into a situation where "experts" are handing down wisdom from on high to the masses. That's just ... ick. Not the spirit of the place at all.

            Keep in mind that nyceve probably did as much or more on this site to get health care out there as a big issue than anyone else. I have no idea what she does for a living. I DO know she was a bulldog that wouldn't relent, and I think there are many people here who are just as talented and relentless that don't have the proper credentials.

  •  I've stopped expecting professionalism on the FP. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mariken
    In Kos's very first sentence of This post:

    1. Kos attacks people on his left
    2. ...by comparing us to the genitalia of little boys
    3. ...and then comparing us to turn-of-the-century fainting Southern belles by claiming they "get the vapors"

    Later in the post, he repeats both of these sexist attacks, calls us "stupid" and tells us to "shut the fuck up".  That pretty much extinguished my expectations of FP decorum.

    Not to mention he was just plain wrong.  The Lexington Herald-Leader described the effect of the ad as an "implosion"; the Louisville Courier-Journal called it a "misstep" that "stop[ped] his momentum"; Bob Menendez called it a "killer".

    I'd appreciate an apology from Markos, but after six weeks, I'm not holding my breath.

    Another brilliant move -- in the other eight dimensions!

    by osterizer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:35:34 PM PST

    •  I don't think he was (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adept2u

      necessarily criticizing people only on his left.

      TSA = Transportation Sexual Assault

      by Anima on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:49:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's your response? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u
        I dunno.  The message I read was: 'Who cares if the ad was gratuitous religion-baiting?  The guy has a D next to his name, so shut the fuck up while I attack your masculinity.'

        Party over principles has always struck me as archetypal of the right.  That Kos attacked 'liberal weenies' but not 'centrist weenies' in the ad only confirms that the folks he was attacking were folks he perceived as being to his left.  

        On what basis do you dispute this?  (And why'd you pick that point, of all things, to nitpick?)

        Another brilliant move -- in the other eight dimensions!

        by osterizer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 09:01:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  He criticizes "centrists" (0+ / 0-)

          all the time. You haven't noticed that?

          By the by, I'm not nitpicking. It was your FIRST point. I'm engaging in conversation. If you're going to get defensive or get upset, then let's not bother talking about it at all.

          So yes, that's my response. I respond like I would if you and I were talking over a cup of coffee. It wasn't an emotional, or mad, or aggressive, or arrogant comment. If you're used to the typical hyped-emotions of non-personal communication via the interwebs, then we're talking on different planes here.

          TSA = Transportation Sexual Assault

          by Anima on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 09:31:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You write: (0+ / 0-)
            "He criticizes 'centrists' all the time."

            But he didn't criticize them in that post.  

            And yes, it was my first point, but it certainly wasn't my main point.  I was listing the points in the chronological order that they appeared in Markos's post.  My main point was that the site's owner set a tone with that post for belittling his opponents with sexist language.  That was a response to the diarist's lament about the "nature" of the FP posts and the front-pagers' willingness to "hype emotion" to "driv[e] traffic".

            It sounded like a nitpick that you chose not to respond to that main point, but rather that you felt I had misconstrued which audience he was belittling -- something that strikes me as irrelevant in the context of talking about the tone of the site.

            It's ironic in the context of these comments, then, that upon my very first reply to you, you've perceived me as having gotten "defensive" and "upset".  (In fact, I was "surprised" and also a bit "disappointed", but neither defensive nor upset.)  That's also an unfortunate aspect of the tone of this site, that members are quick to perceive disagreement as hostility, but it's an aspect I'd prefer to steer away from right now, so as to keep this thread focused on the front page.

            Another brilliant move -- in the other eight dimensions!

            by osterizer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 10:03:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fair enough. (0+ / 0-)

              As to your main point, I didn't perceive "weenies" to be an inherently sexist remark. But I'm not convinced that it isn't, either. I'd be interested in hearing a fuller explanation as to why you think it is sexist.

              Granted, it is certainly a slang word for a male's genitals, but to me it is so removed from that context that it doesn't really connotate anything sexual.

              TSA = Transportation Sexual Assault

              by Anima on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 10:23:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Here you go: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Anima
                I'd be interested in hearing a fuller explanation as to why you think it is sexist.

                It's not just a slang term for male genitals, it's a diminuitive term -- one that children might use without getting a spanking.  You say it's not inherently sexist, and I agree with that, but since he used that term alongside the reference to 'getting the vapors', it strikes me as a uncoincidental word choice: if you're going to cast aspersions on your opponents' sexual prowess, why not do so from both the gender/feminization angle also from the developmental/size angle in the same sentence?  

                Another brilliant move -- in the other eight dimensions!

                by osterizer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 11:01:18 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Also Adept I think you'll (11+ / 0-)

    be interested, and hopefully not mind my adding this link for ya & those who really do want news.. The President's statement on the US/Korea Trade Agreement.. 11 Billion$$$  70,000 jobs:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/30/102745/165 Barack Obama, DailyKos 2005

    by sherijr on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:35:43 PM PST

  •  I don't know the answer, but you omit (11+ / 0-)

    a separate motivation than money.  It is possible that the motivation to drive up clicks is a desire to extend influence.  This seems a much more likely reason.

    I am disturbed by the quickness with which members of the left are ready to attack those whose opinions they don't agree with, using personal attacks and accusations of egotism and money-grubbing.  It's fratricide.  I'm not sure if the diarist is doing this, and I don't know the subtleties of the interaction he is referencing.  But I have certainly seen plenty of it against the likes of Jane Hamsher, Cenk, and Greenwald.

    This criticism resonates with Gibbs' insidious "professional left" remark.  The whole meme is sickeningly Rovian.  While the craven likes of Beck and O'Reilly rake in millions a year, we find people on the left attacking liberal pundits who are trying to scrape by with a fraction of the audience--it's self-destructive.  Those most likely to have the conviction of their beliefs, meaning progressives, agree with them or not, are attacked for having ulterior motives.  I find it sickening.

    I don't know if you have done that here, but this seems in the same family.  If we indeed share goals, but disagree sometimes on how to achieve them, then I ask that we refrain from attacking the character of one another, or from accusing one another of ulterior motives.  It is enough to disagree on issues.

    Many of the nations billionaires are on the warpath. They want more more more. -Sen. Sanders

    by geomoo on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:44:55 PM PST

  •  I hear all the time (7+ / 0-)

    on this site from some people, cries to stop whining or stay out of diaries that I disagree with.There are  It works two ways you cannot expect the writing or content to reflect what you consider acceptable fare and attitude.  It is at it's core very democratic and FP writers have always run the gamut as far as style and political perspective goes. Some offend me some amuse me, some move me some inform aor make me look at issues from another perspective. I always find that this site offers more then just a editorial policy that promotes PC or CW, catapults the propaganda  or stifles the messy process of being a active participant in democratic politics, bottom up. What you see is what you get and it is usually worth the click.    

  •  Is CT about the front page still CT? (3+ / 0-)

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:51:37 PM PST

  •  Let 'r rip! Right on. (6+ / 0-)

    I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

    by slinkerwink on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:53:18 PM PST

  •  Is there a site meter any where on here? (0+ / 0-)

    I could swear I've seen it before but now that I look I can't seem to locate it.

    "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

    by ban nock on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 06:55:05 PM PST

  •  If you realized "so I'm wrong" why (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, ohmyheck

    did you find it necessary to post the diary?

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:01:09 PM PST

  •  I have a feeling (7+ / 0-)

    that if Kos was really that much more interested in "driving traffic" than he is in legitimate political discourse, the front page would be nothing but BWD's photo diaries. I'm certain that as a businessman he wants his site to make money, and I find the right-wing ads that occasionally show up on his page as aggravating as anyone else here does (though I understand why Kos doesn't reject the Republican ads, because he has said that he doesn't want to establish the precedent that he endorses the content of his ads and thus open a huge can of worms for himself). But to say that he asks his front-pagers to push an anti-Obama meme in an attempt to juice up his page views is to ignore the fact that his front-pagers have hardly been monolithic in the opinions they've expressed, and to ignore the fact that at least some of his audience has been leaving the site for the flowers and unicorns over at BWD's blog.

    It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. -- George Carlin

    by Big Tex on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:27:18 PM PST

  •  This is Cenk's latest diary all over again (0+ / 0-)

    Cenk's latest diary here on DKos (unsurprisingly) started a meta pie fight, during which Cenk was accused of the same motive: profiting off of so-called Obama bashing. Exhibit A: this diary. Totally ad hominem argument - but even so, the diary got on the rec list briefly.

    Now we have the exact same ad hominem argument being presented here, in response to the exact same thing: criticism of Obama. And quotes taken out proper context to boot.

    Why not address the actual arguments being made, instead of turning to ad hominem attacks?

    "'Tough love' is just the right phrase: love for the rich and privileged, tough for everyone else." -Noam Chomsky, Powers and Prospects

    by parallaxblue on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:40:06 PM PST

  •  Background on this diary (5+ / 0-)

    Thud

    Glad you got the answers you needed Adept2u.
    And in such a nice way.

    Education is too big to fail. Truth is too big to fail. Justice is too big to fail. Peace is too big to fail.

    by Burned on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:44:42 PM PST

    •  Ha! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Burned, triv33, liberaldemdave, ohmyheck

      Hilarious. Tinfoil hats all around.

      a spook who sits by the door

      by brooklynbadboy on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 07:52:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  OMFG!!!!!! LOL!!!! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      liberaldemdave

      That is beyond hilarious!  Thank you so much cuz I needed the rolling-on-the-ground laugh that gave me.

      Sa-Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

      Pleeeez, if there is a Gawd, let Markos read that.  I am sure he needs the laugh even more than I did.

      I don't know how you found that, but can is there a "Most Unbelievable Comments Thread Top Comments" catagory?  If not, what a shame.  This thread is Teh Winnah!

      How about "Commenters Who Have Lost All Credibility at DKos"  Award?

      I am so bookmarking this........LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

      Where have all the mainstream Republicans gone? Apparently they're working for the Democrats in DC.---James Kresnik

      by ohmyheck on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:09:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's the "background" scandal (4+ / 0-)

      when the diary you are discussing was -- in my memory -- on the rec list when that conversation was ongoing? It shows what lead up to this diary quite reasonably. Why must you make "scandals" out of "questions"?

      I'm glad that Susan came in and explained what she did. And it's all been fairly insightful. Maybe I'm the only person who learned something interesting today about this site, something they feel is beneficial, moreover. But I doubt that highly; my sense is that others also have found this conversation stimulating. Given the rampant support for transparency here, having an open conversation about a then-public diary is not "background" to be "dug up" as if it were some type of secret skullduggery, which is what one would infer from your comment here.

      "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:10:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you READ the link? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        liberaldemdave

        Nuff said.

        Where have all the mainstream Republicans gone? Apparently they're working for the Democrats in DC.---James Kresnik

        by ohmyheck on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:13:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you had, you'd see I had commented (6+ / 0-)

          in it. And brought the concerns there into the exact questions which I addressed above. Because it seemed better to ask than to speculate.

          Scandalous. I know. But that seemed to be the very function of this diary: to ASK directly for clarification rather than to just wildly speculate.

          I think this diary created excellent dialogue, moreover. On numerous fronts.

          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:15:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously MO (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        liberaldemdave

        I don't believe I am the one creating scandals here.
        I'm sorry you got caught up in it... again.

        Education is too big to fail. Truth is too big to fail. Justice is too big to fail. Peace is too big to fail.

        by Burned on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:15:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is no scandal, Burned (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, gobears2000

          The conversation happened on the rec list, on a diary with hundreds of people participating in it.

          You and your darned sunshine laws...

          Really, stop with the paranoia schtick. And also, the personal problem you seem to have with me, which is, in and of itself, sad.

          This is like the fourth time this week you've tried to play "GOTCHA!" with me. Give it a break already.

          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:19:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Didn't say there was a scandal (0+ / 0-)

            Hence the "thud".

            Also I only recall running into you one other time this week. In another diary concerning brooklynbadboy where you complained about tone.
            Please provide links to any other comments I made to you this week or retract this silly gotcha comment.

            I'm sorry you got embarrassed.

            Education is too big to fail. Truth is too big to fail. Justice is too big to fail. Peace is too big to fail.

            by Burned on Sat Dec 04, 2010 at 04:03:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  And the comment you just made (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, soothsayer99

          is a violation of site rules.

          "There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement." - Emerson

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:19:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  IMHO.... (6+ / 0-)
    I would prefer to see the front pagers clean up their act.  They are some of the most brilliant and conscientious writers on the net yet they still write like they're in the diaries.  I think if they wrote their articles in a professional manner as opposed to snarking it up half the time Dkos would be taken a lot more seriously and traffic would actually increase.  Getting rid of the funny remarks and the foul language and having someone actually edit and proofread the articles for spelling and grammar would go a long way towards buttressing  this sites reputation.  If a front pager needs to stroke their funny bone they can always do it in the diary section.

    Just my $.02

    "War is a Racket" -- MajGen Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by PvtJarHead on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:55:18 PM PST

  •  Look at any liberal blog out there (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    megisi

    and you'll see the same thing. People really are this disheartened and furious. How much longer can you have your fingers in your ears?

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

    by denise b on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 10:52:28 PM PST

  •  Isn't this conspiracy shit a basis for banning (0+ / 0-)

    this diarist?

    The real question to me is whether folks like you will continue to be allowed to skirt and/or ignore rules that others of us get warned about if we don't follow them?

    I can count any number of occasions now where you or others have acted in this manner. My question to the site is do you call them on it with warnings and other tools because how is this not conspiracy theory territory here?

    •  Conspiracy shit? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soothsayer99

      Well if I were making a claim it would require extraordinary proof, however I was making no claims I was asking questions.  The questions including the explanation that they were perfectly acceptable to ask were answered by the head editor of this place.  I put her comments in the diary.  Did you miss them.

      "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

      by Adept2u on Sat Dec 04, 2010 at 02:11:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have also been warned multiple times (0+ / 0-)

      I have had my rating privileges suspended as well.  It seems you have an issue with me, however I wasn't aware we had one.  this is a dead diary as of now, whats your fucking problem.

      "The job of the media is not to protect power from embarrassment."

      by Adept2u on Sat Dec 04, 2010 at 02:24:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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