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Yesterday, as video emerged of Syrian helicopters attacking opposition forces on the ground, and the UN reported that Syrian attack helicopters are being used against civilians, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton charged that Russia was suppling attack helicopters to Assad. Speaking yesterday Clinton said:

"We have confronted the Russians about stopping their continued arms shipments to Syria, They have, from time to time, said that we shouldn't worry, [that] everything they're shipping is unrelated to [Syria's] actions internally. That's patently untrue, and we are concerned about the latest information we have that there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria which will escalate the conflict quite dramatically."

On Monday Syrian opposition charged that these helicopters were firing indiscriminately:

Government military forces fired indiscriminately Monday from helicopters on a town on the outskirts of Jabal Al-Zawiya, inflicting scores of casualties on civilians and rebel forces, an activist told CNN.
...
"The regime is escalating the use of violent forces," said an activist in Idlib whom CNN is identifying only as Ahmad for safety reasons. "We cannot believe that the world is watching us being killed ... we want military intervention."
Today Russia issued it's response, a flat denial. From this morning's Miami Herald  we have:
MOSCOW -- Russia's foreign minister has rejected the U.S. claim that Moscow is sending attack helicopters to Syria.

Russian news agencies reported Wednesday that Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov denied a claim by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton that "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria."
....
Lavrov says that Russia isn't providing Syria with weapons that can be used against peaceful demonstrators.

But according to B92 Net:
MOSCOW -- Russia has denied it has been delivering new military helicopters to Syria and stressed it is only repairing the ones delivered 20 years ago.
...
Moscow Defense Brief editor Mikhail Barabanov said Clinton could only have been referring to "some Syrian Mi-24 or Mi-17 helicopters that were sent back to Russia for repairs."
So apparently Russia is not sending any new modern attack helicopters to Syria, but they are sending them refurbished Soviet-era attack helicopters. I'm sure the Syrians Assad will murder with these helicopters from Russia will appreciate the distinction.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 at  8:26 AM PT: The anchor on Russia Today this morning said that SecState Clinton accused Russia of sending new helicopters to Syria. But Clinton never said new helicopters. They didn't say "new helicopters" yesterday. The addition of this adjective to the report is itself new. This is just dishonest journalism on RT's part.

This follows my report yesterday that Russia was sending refurbished helicopters to Syria.

In related news, Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov said Wednesday:

Russia supplies Syria "only with something that Syria would need in the event of an armed attack on it from without,"

"We don't supply Syria or anyone else with things that are used to fight against peaceful demonstrators, unlike the United States, which regularly supplies that region with such special equipment,”

Lavrov didn't say what that "something" was but obviously attack helicopters are something Syria would need if attacked from without. The problem is that while there is no current or external attack on Syria which, according to the UN, is using attack helicopters against civilians.

Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Strategies and Technologies Analysis spoke yesterday and again seemed to confirm that Russia was sending refurbished helicopters to Syria:

the helicopters Clinton was talking about likely underwent maintenance in Russia.

"Even if we assume that combat helicopters are now indeed being passed to Syria, this action would not at all contradict the current norms of international law dealing with weapons trade," Makiyenko told Interfax-AVN on Wednesday.

Poll

Who is attacking attacking civilians with helicopter gunships in Syria?

85%12 votes
14%2 votes

| 14 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (9+ / 0-)

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:22:36 AM PDT

  •  This is just priceless. (8+ / 0-)

    I don't recall seeing Hillary Clinton saying a  single word about the recent arms deal between US and the regime in Bahrain. Russia shouldn't do it and neither should the US.

    “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

    by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:36:16 AM PDT

    •  Some questions: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Clay Claiborne, OIL GUY

      Are civilians being shelled by artillery and tanks in Bahrain?

      Are attack helicopters being used in Bahrein?

      How many have die in protests in Bahrain and how does that compare to the number of people that have die in Syria so far?

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:46:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does it really matter? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kurt Sperry, mookins

        Given what we've seen so far, it's not a stretch to believe that the rulers in Bahrain would act just like Assad if they had to.

        “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

        by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:05:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you rely on imagination to make your point! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY, Lawrence

          That means you don't have an actual point.

          Romney '12: Bully for America!

          by Rich in PA on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:24:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's no need for imagination here. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chipmo, mookins

            The crackdowns against regime opponents  (which as of a couple of days ago includes jailing an 11 year old boy for participating in an "illegal gathering") are well documented.

            “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

            by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:37:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Are you compairng the holding of an 11 yr old for (0+ / 0-)

              trial to this:

              Your defense of Assad is indeed shameless. You make my point about such comparisons in spades.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:54:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Uhh... no I'm not (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                chipmo, mookins

                And seriously, enough with this shit:

                Your defense of Assad is indeed shameless.

                “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

                by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:56:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  There's evidence that indicates you are wrong. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice

                And you know that.

                "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:02:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What evidence? (0+ / 0-)

                  I've heard speculation by pro-Assad forces that the 80% killed at close range may not have been killed by Assad, but this operation, like the Houla massacre, was started with a Syrian government artillery barge and there is plenty of evidence for that.

                  And while we are on the subject of THIS dairy [as oppose to the pro-Assad smoke machines]

                  WHO DO YOU THINK IS ATTACKING CIVILIANS WITH HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS IN SYRIA? Assad's government or the ATG [armed terrorist gangs] See poll below.

                  Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                  by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:27:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  YouTube communications strategy as "brilliant". (0+ / 0-)
                'Shades Of Grey'- Rethinking The Houla Massacre
                June 13, 2012
                ...
                Williams added: ‘stories are never black and white - often shades of grey. Those opposed to President Assad have an agenda. One senior Western official went as far as to describe their YouTube communications strategy as "brilliant". But he also likened it to so-called "psy-ops", brainwashing techniques used by the US and other military to convince people of things that may not necessarily be true. A healthy scepticism is one of the essential qualities of any journalist - never more so than in reporting conflict. The stakes are high - all may not always be as it seems.’
                ...
                Williams added: ‘stories are never black and white - often shades of grey. Those opposed to President Assad have an agenda. One senior Western official went as far as to describe their YouTube communications strategy as "brilliant". But he also likened it to so-called "psy-ops", brainwashing techniques used by the US and other military to convince people of things that may not necessarily be true. A healthy scepticism is one of the essential qualities of any journalist - never more so than in reporting conflict. The stakes are high - all may not always be as it seems.’
                ...
                Danahar added:

                ‘Members of the international community in Damascus say that, contrary to initial reports, most of the people in Houla were killed by gunfire spraying the rooms, not by execution-style killings with a gun placed to the back of the head. Also, people's throats were not cut, although one person did have an eye gouged out.’

                These were crucial new claims challenging key aspects of the consensus on Houla - the media had been as one in reporting as established fact the horrific cutting of children’s throats, for example.
                ...

        •  Does it really matter? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence

          Whether someone is murdered or might have been murdered under different circumstances.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:48:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Uh... you're seriously trying to tell me that (0+ / 0-)

          there's no difference between people actually being slaughtered and people maybe/possibly being killed?

          That's a pretty sick attitude to have.

          And not exactly progressive or liberal or caring in my book.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 04:05:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Our bad guys are better than their bad guys. (0+ / 0-)

        "Fight the real enemy." -Sinead O'connor

        by mookins on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 12:26:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Attempts by pro-Qaddafi & pro-Assad forces (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rich in PA

      to claim that some level of parity existed between the level of repression and violence used by Qaddafi's Libya and Syria on the one hand and the regimes in Bahrain and Yemen on the other are absolutely despicable!

      Like when the UN voted a "no-fly zone" over Libya, their favorite mantra was "Why don't they imposed a no-fly zone over Bahrain?"

      Well, duh. Maybe because Bahrain wasn't using military aircraft to attack protesters?

      Bringing up Bahrain and Yemen when Syria is the topic are merely attempts to muddy the waters and support Assad's rampage.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:06:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Classy (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chipmo, davis90, Kurt Sperry, mookins
        Bringing up Bahrain and Yemen when Syria is the topic are merely attempts to muddy the waters and support Assad's rampage.
        Peace out.

        “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

        by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:09:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Those who rightfully point out (4+ / 0-)

        that the United States is absolutely one of the least credible arbiters of international human rights are not "pro-Assad", and your obnoxious Manichean attempts to paint people as "with us or against us" is pure neo-con framing.

        They Won't Stop Until There's No One Left to Kill

        In the present case, I do not doubt that the Syrian government is brutal and murderous, nor do I doubt that it is committing various atrocities. Nonetheless -- and I realize this is astounding and staggering news to many Americans -- whatever may be going on in Syria is no goddamned business of the U.S. government. And to believe at this perilously late date -- after more than a hundred years of slaughters around the world, in countless countries, leading to an immense pile of corpses that numbers in the millions -- that the United States government and its military are dedicated, to any extent whatsoever, to the exercise of brutality in the name of "humanitarianism" ... well. If we are talking about the limits of understanding, we need a word far stronger than "stupid." And if we're talking about lies ... then damn them to hell.
        But thanks for continuing to be an advocate for Wars To Prevent War.

        The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

        by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:21:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually the diarist should go to work for McCain, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chipmo, protectspice

          Leiberman, Kristol, and Kagen, the neocons who are so strongly saying the same damn things the diarist is, calling for intervention and stating that Assad is the evil.  Lockstep with the neocons.

          "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

          by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:41:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What about the people of the US? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY

          If your position is

          whatever may be going on in Syria is no goddamned business of the U.S. government.
          What do you think the position of the people should be. Would you also endorse these opinions:
          whatever may be going on in Syria is no goddamned business of the U.S. people.
          or
          whatever may be going on in Syria is no goddamned business of the world's people.
          What should the people of the world be demanding with regards to Syria?

          Your answer can't simply be let the Syrian dictator and Syrian people fight it out among themselves without outside interference or support because this dairy is about precisely such outside support in the form of helicopter gunships for Assad and you are trying hard to charge that topic.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:52:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The people of the world should demand (3+ / 0-)

            an end to all state-sanctioned violence.

            No, I would not endorse neither of those two statements.

            The people of the world should be demanding more information.  They should be demanding truly independent investigations into the credible allegations that western countries have been arming the opposition groups in Syria in order to ACCELERATE the atrocity and create a bigger humanitarian-shaped fig leaf for military intervention.

            None of this is to excuse Syria's barbaric actions, and you can frankly go to hell for having made that insinuation throughout your comment sections.  The point is that no condemnation that comes out of Hillary Clinton or any other American foreign policy mouthpiece is to be trusted as
            a) credible
            b) humanitarian, or
            c) based on moral authority.

            America only gets involved in stuff on behalf of corporations.  This has ALWAYS been the case, and when it's not selectively picking which REAL atrocity to make money fighting, it will actually INVENT an atrocity to get involved in.

            To suggest that the U.S. is advocating for humanitarianism NOW instead of profit-seeking is to somehow think that the past 200 years of American policy is SUDDENLY different.

            Oppose Assad and the actions of his government.  I'm with you on that.  But I oppose the "free army" as well.  I am for the people of Syria to live in peace.  And it is THAT distinction that you never make in your pro-humanitarian intervention pieces, and it is decidedly NOT the position of the U.S. Government.  If it were, then the calls would simply be for an end to violence and not a demand for Assad to step down.

            The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

            by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 12:24:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I only cited Clinton on the question of Russian (0+ / 0-)

              helicopters for Syria. She no doubt has access to such info via US intel assets, including sates. She no doubt made this info public because it looks bad for the Russians. Everything she say isn't a lie.

              Is she lying about Russia attack helicopters headed for Syria? The Russian response would indicated that she is not. That is the subject of this diary, the other stuff you bring up are smoke and mirrors.

              Where do you think the FSA came from. What do you think the soldiers that have deserted Assad are doing?

              simply be for an end to violence and not a demand for Assad to step down.
              Not demand that Assad step down? That's your position and you say you are not pro-Assad? Syrian peaceful protests started March 15, 2011 to demand precisely that. He has murdered thousands for simply making this demand.

              No, Assad is a cold blooded mass murderer who is still killing as we write. My demand is no longer that Assad step down, my demand, and it is echoed by people around the world, is that Assad be put down.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:06:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have to go, and I don't have time (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice, BigAlinWashSt

                to argue much more of this on behalf of the audience(obviously I'm not arguing to change YOUR mind because you like American military aggression), but

                I only cited Clinton on the question of Russian helicopters for Syria.
                The dialogue between Clinton and Russia is the CENTRAL POINT of your diary, not just a minor citation.  It is the credibility of one of the two parties that are the CORE of this diary that people object to, not opposition to the actions of the Syrian army.
                Not demand that Assad step down? That's your position and you say you are not pro-Assad?
                Yes, and the fact that you conflate the two position just shows how unable and unwilling you are to talk about policy without becoming a straw-man erecting asshole.  Demanding that violence ends with NO OTHER CONDITIONS is a way to protect life.  Assad is a dictator.  Telling a dictator to ABDICATE POWER is clearly not a demand that is expected to be obeyed.  And by putting the demand that Clinton knows will not be met forward, she gets her justification for war AND the fig leaf of "trying diplomacy" at the same time.

                How can the demand that Assad be "put down" be met with less loss of Syrian life than a simple, unconditional demand that violence stop?

                Answer or don't.  I don't care to read your justifications for bloodletting wrapped in fake concern for small people anymore.

                The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

                by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:24:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Unintentional progressive humor! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kurt Sperry, OIL GUY, Lawrence

      So you're drawing an equivalency between the killing of dozens by Bahrain's government and the killing of thousands by Syria's government?

      Romney '12: Bully for America!

      by Rich in PA on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:23:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So if 90 are killed (5+ / 0-)

        the U.S. can sell them weapons through Saudi Arabia and that's all cool.

        OK, so let's factor in that Syria's population is 20 times that of Bahrain, so, I guess once the death toll reached 1800, THAT'S when Russia should have cut them off and denounced them, and once the 91st Bahraini is killed, we'll do the same, right?

        The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

        by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:34:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think I've figured this out. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clay Claiborne, OIL GUY, Lawrence

          I guess if you don't care about Bahrainis or Syrians, but only care about making a critique of US imperialism, what you're saying makes a lot of sense.  But it doesn't make sense in any context that values the lives of people in those countries.  That's how you are able to place imaginary future deaths in Bahrain ahead of actual deaths in Syria, not to mention the charming apologia that Syria's a bigger country.

          Romney '12: Bully for America!

          by Rich in PA on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:43:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You haven't figure shit out. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            Apologia?  That's your bag, slick.  What I'm doing is pointing out the absurdity of the U.S. being the authority on humanitarianism as we collectively are RAPING the entire fucking third world.  What I'm doing is pointing out the HYPOCRISY of calling American military foreign policy and denunciations examples of "humanitarianism".

            You're the one who dismissed the suppression of the Bahrainis as being too small to mention, much less STOP PROFITING OFF OF.  I'm for the rights of the governed everywhere.

            Let's see what kind of bullshit contortion you can use now to make it appear like you're the "rational" one in the room, advocating war to "save lives".

            The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

            by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:50:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  BREAKING: UN declares Syrian Civil War, 14K dead (0+ / 0-)

          The UN is reporting 14,000 killed what it is now calling the Syrian civil war. This compares with 95 killed in Bahrain in the same period.

          174 people were killed in Syria in the past 2 days, dozens that were still alive when I published this dairy 3 hours ago have no doubt  been murdered while we discuss this. The last death associated with the uprising in Bahrain was March 15th and that was a government soldier.

          So, yes, I consider anyone attempting to subvert this diary into a discussion of US support for repression in Bahrain to be objectively, practically, pro-Assad. You own that label even if you could care less about Assad, but see an opportunity to use this dairy to discuss other questions you think more important because you are giving him cover.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 12:39:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And I consider anyone (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            who takes the U.S. position on military intervention at face value without noting the lack of credibility of the U.S. and glosses overs the serious questions about who makes up the Free Syrian Army to be a full blooded neo-conservative.

            You own that label, warmonger.

            The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

            by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:02:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  serious questions about who makes up the FSA (0+ / 0-)

              If you have information that implies the FSA is foreign operated, then spit it out.

              Pro-Assad forces are indeed throwing up a lot of smoke about who makes up the FSA, but it is a question that has a definite answer because these fighters don't cover their faces:





              The thing is, something like 190,000 YouTube videos about the uprising in Syria have been uploaded it the past year and no power on Earth can create a fake record of that magnitude and complexity so anyone that wants to take the time can know what is really going on in Syria.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:25:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  while there is a legitimate point there-- (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      420 forever, OIL GUY, Lawrence

      the scale is so monumentally different as to render it almost irrelevant.

      The U.S. has arms deals with lots of countries whose human rights records are less than ideal.  Hell, OUR human rights record isn't so hot either.  So there are serious things to discuss concerning our trade/arms relationships with such regimes, etc.

      But here, you pretty much have a full-scale, one-sided repression where some 15,000 people are dead.  if these Russia stories are true, they're effectively directly involved on the side of the government.

      Sure, it's possible that, as you say below, Bahrain might do the same thing.  But the thing is--that's speculation.  No one knows what anyone is GOING to do.  Difference in Syria is--it's currently being done, it's currently being actively supported by the Russians, and tons of people are getting killed.

      •  I agree that the situation in Syria is much worse (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chipmo, BigAlinWashSt

        than the situation in Bahrain. My comment was not an attempt to minimize what Assad has been doing in his country (nor it's a statement of support for Assad - far from it). I was merely pointing out the double standards of the US foreign policy.

        “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

        by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:04:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  of course. But I don't think anyone would (0+ / 0-)

          dispute that...

          •  Many on this very site would dispute it. (3+ / 0-)

            And of those who don't, many are inclined to ignore it when reading U.S. propaganda which is aimed at entering into war "reluctantly".

            Humanitarian Intervention has been the most effective propaganda yet developed to justify American adventurism and overcome liberal objection.  And it has been the same for as long as PR firms have been writing our "news stories" for us.

            George Creel wrote stories painting the Huns as bloodthirsty baby-killers in order to engender support for Woodrow Wilson to "reluctantly" enter into WWI.  So on and so on until we reach the modern day with soulless people like Samantha Powers guiding our Orwellian policy of "humanitarian" bomb campaigns aimed not to free people, but to free markets.

            The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

            by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:29:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When has humanitarian intervention been used? (0+ / 0-)

              This is another mantra I dispute:

              Humanitarian Intervention has been the most effective propaganda yet developed to justify American adventurism and overcome liberal objection.  And it has been the same for as long as PR firms have been writing our "news stories" for us.
              Ever since Obama used that as the reason for supporting intervention in Libya, the anti-intervention have been saying "that's what they always say"

              The term "humaniatirian intervention" certainly played no role in the build up to the Vietnam War, that was about stopping the spread of communism. Iraq was about WMD. Afghanistan was about Al Qaeda. But now from those that prefer re-writing history instead of learning from it, we get "That's what they always say."

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 12:24:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh holy fucking shit (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice, BigAlinWashSt

                and you consider yourself a serious voice on this stuff?

                Humanitarian Intervention as an officially named policy only metastasized since Kosovo, and its modern incarnation grew out of the efforts from chickenhawk intellectuals like Bernard-Henri Levy and Samantha Powers.  However, the philosophical roots of the practice have existed for far longer than that.  I suppose you've never heard of "the white man's burden" before?

                rolleye  

                Libya, Kosovo, and Gulf War I are all modern examples of the use of humanitarian paeans to justify military force.  Every time the media starts talking about how women suffer in Afghani society due to the barbaric laws in a few remote villages, it is an appeal to support humanitarian intervention.

                Come on, buddy.  Let's have some more excuses for friendly colonialism!

                The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

                by chipmo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 12:58:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  You may think Samantha Powers "soul less" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence

              But this dairy is not about her, it is about Assad, who you have yet to say an unkind word about.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:28:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Modern Warfare is won from the Air. (0+ / 0-)

    Only one way to fight Fire.

    Notice: This Comment © 2012 ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:37:31 AM PDT

  •  Putin's Russia... stuck in neutral in a Cold War (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OIL GUY

    mentality.

    Just like Bush and Cheney were.

    Tipped and recced.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:41:33 AM PDT

  •  Oh I see .. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, kestrel9000, OIL GUY

    The old "Manufacturer Refurbished" defense.

    I wonder what kind of warranty is being offered.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 09:43:17 AM PDT

  •  This is the western imperialists next propaganda (4+ / 0-)

    move to edge closer to a No-Fly zone over Syria so they can bomb the shit out of that country.  They need justification that Assad is using air power against the so called rebels (mercenaries/terrorists).   War propaganda on full display.

    "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:38:57 AM PDT

  •  Enough Bombing for Peace (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    420 forever, chipmo, BigAlinWashSt

    We have no moral standing to be condemning Russia for arms sales to Syria given our shameful and ongoing history of backing and arming brutal tyrants and dictators across the globe whenever there's a dollar to be made doing so.

    Let's leave the condemnations of Russia to those states that won't render themselves as self serving hypocrites by doing so.

    Advisors for President-Elect Barack Obama feared the new administration would face a coup if it prosecuted Bush-era war crimes, according to a new report out this morning.

    by Kurt Sperry on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 10:44:25 AM PDT

  •  More evidence of American hypocrisy on this issue (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chipmo, BigAlinWashSt

    The US, Syria and the Moscow Arms Dealer - a tangled tale:

    While the US accuses Russia of supplying Syrian attack helicopters, the Pentagon defends its own $1bn deal with the same Moscow arms dealer.
    Wired has a story on this as well:
    Just one problem. Russia also sells MI-17s to the United States. The U.S. buys the helicopters for the Afghan Air Force, which is familiar with the airframe. The price tag could reach $1 billion. To stop doing business with Rosoboronexport in protest of its complicity in the Syrian slaughter could jeopardize the Obama team’s plans to hand the Afghanistan war to the Afghans in 2014. To continue to do business with Rosoboronexport is to risk effectively subsidizing Assad’s massacres.

    “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

    by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:17:20 AM PDT

    •  Second link is busted (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chipmo

      Here's the correct one.

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 11:18:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The question here is not US hypocrisy. (0+ / 0-)

      That is a given.

      This dairy is fundamentally about Russian support for Assad. In point of face, the main thing the US has supplied with regards to the Syrian crisis is a lot of hot air.

      The US is not at the center of this struggle no matter how much some arrogant  people who ignore the other people on these two continents to call themselves the "Americans"  would like it to be.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 01:44:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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