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Most news items this year about the financial corruption in the Vatican conclude with a reference to the early 1980s Vatican Bank scandal. This past week, though, an Italian journalist nonchalantly dropped a couple of bombs about this episode in Vatican history which were buried in his commentary on current events: Pope John Paul II was intentionally complicit with the criminals at the Vatican Bank, and suggested that the pope knew how his predecessor, Albino Luciani – Pope John Paul I – was murdered.

Giacomo Galeazzi writes for the “Vatican Insider,” a supplement of the Italian newspaper, La Stampa, with the presumption that his readers are already acquainted with the details of this period.

According to David Yallop - author of In God’s Name and still the seminal source about the corruption leading to the death of Pope John Paul I - on September 28, 1978, the pontiff informed his Secretary of State, Cardinal Jean Villot, that he was severing the ties between the IOR (the official acronym for the Vatican Bank) and Milan’s Banco Ambrosiano which had been laundering money to rightwing Latin American dictators and terrorists and defrauding investors. In addition, he was removing the members of the Curia associated with these criminal activities, including Villot.

The next morning, after only 33 days as pope, Luciani was found dead. Villot had all of his personal effects and papers quickly removed, including a bottle of medicine last seen on the nightstand. Villot first announced to the press that the pope died from an overdose of medicine; then he changed the cause of death to a heart attack. (Luciani’s personal physician and family stated he had no heart disease.) The body was embalmed within a day and no autopsy was performed. Yallop had only circumstantial evidence to substantiate his claim that Luciani’s medicine had been poisoned.

Luciani’s successor, Karol Wojtyla, had been an obscure bishop in an impoverished country but suddenly became a globetrotter in the 1970s appearing at Opus Dei centers throughout Europe and making several trips to the U.S. where he was introduced at Harvard as “the next pope.”  Martin A. Lee, in his Mother Jones article, “Their Will Be Done,” asserted there were several rightwing groups backed by the CIA which were “instrumental in the promoting and electing John Paul II.”

After Wojtyla became pope and was presented with evidence by prelates, the press and personal letters that the IOR was a criminal organization, he did nothing about either the bank’s activities or the crooks running it. Some surmised that Karol Wojtyla was groomed for, and became pope, in a Faustian bargain. In exchange for the defeat of communism in Poland to be supplanted by the Church's hegemony, John Paul II would allow the plutocrats to maintain control of the IOR and appoint bishops, especially in the U.S., who would further their political agenda.

In his column dated June 29, 2012, Galeazzi questioned who would be in charge of Vatican finances after IOR president, Ettori Gotti Tedeschi, was unceremoniously dumped for trying to clean out the Augean stables. The reporter states:

The turbulence surrounding Vatican finances is a heavy burden and a legacy of Karol Wojtyla’s geopolitical papacy....In the Curia John Paul II had conceded unlimited freedom of action to controversial representatives of the financial community who were able to support him in his historic battle against communism....

In exchange for their help in the fight against communism, they enjoyed extended moral “exemption”, that is complicity, conspiracy of silence and cover ups at the top of the Vatican pyramid, to protect them from the sex and corruption scandals they were involved in.

The next day, Galeazzi noted the animosity between Pope Benedict’s two right-hand men, Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone, and pope whisperer, Msgr. Georg Gaenswein, and cautioned Ratzinger not to allow a division similar to that which existed between John Paul II’s personal retinue and the Curia.

According to Galeazzi, while Wojtyla was recuperating in the Vatican after his attempted assassination in 1981 by a Turkish gunman, his “Polish circle” feared he would be poisoned by someone with access to the papal apartment and had all his medications analyzed by a trusted pharmacist. Can it be a coincidence that of all the methods to commit murder, John Paul II and his men focused precisely on the method allegedly used to kill a pope less than three years earlier?  

Pope John Paul II was portrayed as a superstar by the nascent mega-corporate-owned media made possible by deregulation during the Reagan administration, Wojtyla’s co-crusader in the battle against the Evil Empire.

Pope Benedict doesn’t get the same treatment as his predecessor. Not only is there an independent press holding the mainstream media more accountable, but public opinion has been shaped by knowledge of the Church’s global sex abuse of children. This bodes ill for the Religious Right’s foundational model and the Vatican’s proxies, the U.S. bishops.

(Betty Clermont is author of The Neo-Catholics: Implementing Christian Nationalism in America (Clarity Press, 2009))  

1:49 PM PT: In response to all the "CT" comments, the Vatican has no police department, no opposition party, no "dissenters" within its territory. It is a sovereign nation with no transparency, accountability, free press, or democratic functions. In view of the above, there is no hard forensic evidence the Luciani was murdered. Yallop's information about financial criminal conduct were verified when the Vatican paid $241 million to its creditors and subsequent articles written by financial experts, so his work is credible. The disclosures noted in Gianluiggi Nuzzi's two books, "His Holiness" and "Vatican SpA" were provided by whistleblowers. There were no whistleblowers during the period Yallop writes about. Without them, everything we know about what happens inside the Vatican is speculation but some sources are definitely more knowledgeable than others. Through study, one learns there are dependable and knowledgeable sources.

Originally posted to Betty Clermont on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 07:14 AM PDT.

Also republished by Street Prophets .

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (222+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeaTurtle, chicago minx, Gooserock, blue jersey mom, One Pissed Off Liberal, jacey, blueoasis, Blue Bell Bookworm, Kingsmeg, Its a New Day, coquiero, Pithy Cherub, gizmo59, lakehillsliberal, CherryTheTart, importer, susakinovember, p gorden lippy, Cinnamon, Carol in San Antonio, agnostic, blue jersey dad, cactusflinthead, profewalt, prettygirlxoxoxo, Tentwenty, Bourbaki, sb, OldDragon, Only Needs a Beat, SCFrog, Marihilda, hlsmlane, mapamp, Oldowan, leftykook, annetteboardman, Crashing Vor, Alumbrados, AoT, janatallow, linkage, arizonablue, Nica24, mofembot, emal, pixxer, martini, Texdude50, TracieLynn, aznavy, ChemBob, bronte17, Hastur, SaintC, Gary Norton, filby, old wobbly, slapshoe, ActivistGuy, Empower Ink, FrY10cK, CT yanqui, tommymet, Debby, opinionated, jm214, The Hindsight Times, Amor Y Risa, majcmb1, Brooke In Seattle, snoopydawg, jalbert, Emerson, spunhard, BigOkie, CamillesDad1, Cat Servant, tapestry, Pluto, Janeo, devis1, Caddis Fly, Statusquomustgo, Hey338Too, SuWho, bnasley, eru, YucatanMan, IreGyre, DefendOurConstitution, tommyfocus2003, Prof Haley, annrose, subtropolis, M Sullivan, ATFILLINOIS, California06, Keone Michaels, Matt Z, Jim P, temptxan, political mutt, elwior, bloomer 101, DaleA, ccasas, cosette, forgore, RFK Lives, MI Sooner, SherwoodB, parsonsbeach, madgranny, tin woodswoman, Prospect Park, Bluesee, lcrp, Sapere aude, Shockwave, IndieGuy, walkshills, glorificus, Caneel, Killer of Sacred Cows, betson08, joynow, buckstop, Wreck Smurfy, psnyder, Alice Venturi, peptabysmal, GrannyOPhilly, greycat, cotterperson, blueoregon, entrelac, thomask, peacearena, Pilgrim X, BobTheHappyDinosaur, arlene, createpeace, Skennet Boch, Rhysling, MA Liberal, kevinpdx, sap, madhaus, mollyd, cv lurking gf, djMikulec, BarackStarObama, Sassy, jayden, jasan, Knucklehead, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, The Walrus, Joieau, shaharazade, SueM1121, jolux, Sunspots, jennylind, cyncynical, dmhlt 66, marleycat, a2nite, Sun Tzu, skyounkin, elziax, DvCM, Tam in CA, BlueDragon, native, Susipsych, David54, bythesea, adrianrf, OMwordTHRUdaFOG, SadieSue, aliasalias, grover, LI Mike, Cassandra Waites, wader, weck, markdd, DJ Rix, rantsposition, G2geek, sfarkash, revbludge, maybeeso in michigan, CanisMaximus, cacamp, hungrycoyote, Redfire, Sandino, PinHole, deepeco, Going the Distance, KenBee, HarpboyAK, doingbusinessas, the good witch, pfiore8, Puddytat, Ginny in CO, Tea and Strumpets, laurnj, OleHippieChick, elengul, lotlizard, Teiresias70, Jackson L Haveck, emmasnacker, Kinak, PBen, semiot, Terrapin
  •  What a bombshell! (97+ / 0-)

    The truth will out!  

    I just read both articles and it does seem like the seams are beginning to unravel in the secrecy that has shrouded the Vatican for the past 40 or so years, since the likely murder of JP1.

    It is curious, as you mention, that they JP2 contingent focused on 'poisoning' as a possible means of murder?  (I'm sure that they took other precautions as well, but it would be interesting to know why Galeazzi noted that in specific.)

    The battle for the power bloc to install the next pope is getting fierce.  Hopefully all these 'leaks' and journalism will expose not only the shameful Vatican banking and money laundering history but also Opus Dei for the fascistic organization that it is and all the damage that it has/is doing.  Ganswein, is of course, B15's Opus Dei handler.

    When I read Yallop, I literally could not put it down and have cross referenced him with other accounts of JP1's life and death.  He does indeed seem to be the authority here.  

    When will it come out how B15 was JP2's right hand man?  Maybe not as far as the money is concerned, but certainly as far as the other wheeling and dealing with rolling back Vat 2, censoring many brilliant theologians in sympathy w/Vat2  and making uber conservative clerical appointments which would be pleasing to those who wished to rule a country in a non-democratic way.

    The Vatican Unravels.  Thanks Be To God.

    Thank You for your great, great work, Betty and bringing us your insight.

    I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

    by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 07:37:50 AM PDT

    •  I can only hope that more and more leaks will keep (41+ / 0-)

      exposing the criminal behavior. As regards the 1980s period, perhaps one of the particiipants will or have leave behind a personal "diary" with all the details.

      Look what's already been published from the "Vatileaks" "Vatican S. p A." and Gotti Tedeschi's papers seized by the Italian police.

    •  If a Pope dies after a month, (14+ / 0-)

      there is going to be CT. And as with most CT, the lack of evidence is viewed as "evidence" supporting the theory. For some reason, CT is extremely attractive to many people, whether it is the JFK assassination, 9/11 CT, or the death of an obscure Pope.

      •  I'm sorry you're not well-read on the subject (36+ / 0-)

        There is so much information which supports Yallop's theory and Martin Lee's conclusions. I could not fit a library full of books and articles written on the subject in the space of this reply.

        •  Yeah, but if the quantity of (6+ / 0-)

          Books on a subject determined its validity, every CT would be true. I have no doubt that there are a ton of books on this subject. I am not impressed. And it is the express policy of this site to avoid discussion of CT, despite however many books are sold supporting the theory.

          •  The point was that YOU have not read any of the (28+ / 0-)

            material and therefore, are not competent to judge whether or not this is CT or not.

            •  So I gotta read every book that (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hey338Too, liberte, Anak, TimmyB, caul

              comes out on every CT imaginable, so that I am qualified to say whether I believe them? Do you read every 911 Truther book that comes out, or read all of Orly Taitz's court briefings, so that you can have an educated view as to the merits of their claims? Are you serious that we should all read books on various conspiracy theories, that this is a good use of our time?

            •  What Evidence of Murder Do You Have Other Than (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pollwatcher, native, TomP, caul

              No autopsey and no testing of his medicine for poison?

              Simply put there are hundreds of millions of people who die each year on this planet who neither have autopsies conducted nor are their medicines tested for poison.  Are we to conclude they too were all murdered?  

              •  I wrote there was only "circumstantial evidence" (10+ / 0-)

                available. But since the Vatican is not subject to any law and has immunity from all civil law enforcement, that's as good as it's going to get. The rest has to be a presumption that since Calvi, Sindona, 2 bank employees, a reporter, a lawyer and two Italian law enforcement officials were also killed to cover up the scandal, the possible then becomes probable.

                •  Not "Circumstantial Evidence" (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  native, Hugin, TomP, caul

                  "Circumstantial evidence" would be if the Pope JP's medicine container was found, tested  and the test showed there was poison present inside the container.  Instead, what we have here is no medicine container located and no autopsey showing that the Pope was poisoned.  

                  That isn't circumstantial evidence of poison.  That's zero evidence supporting the conclusion the Pope was poisoned.  

                  The deaths of the others?  I don't know how they died.  However, let's take a great leap on logic and assume they were killed to cover-up Vatican corruption.  That fact that the Vatican is corrupt would not prove the Pope were poisoned.  The Vatican can be corrupt and the Pope still could have died from something other than poison.

                  •  No, his medicine testing positive would be (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    KenBee, Ginny in CO, The Walrus, WB Reeves

                    physical evidence.  I think you need to go review what different types of evidence mean.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:40:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Where Did You Get Your Law Degree? (0+ / 0-)

                      The place where I got mine taught me in a class entitled "Evidence" that there are two types of evidence, direct and circumstatial.  Direct evidence is when someone testifies that they either performed an act or witnesses an event.    

                      Circumstantial evidence is all other types of evidence.  Thus, physical evidence is circumstantial evidence.  

                      To use an example from law school, in a case where  cookies were stolen from a cookie jar, if I saw you take a cookie from my cookie jar and eat it, that would be direct evidence you stole cookies.  If I heard a crash, entered my kitchen and saw you there, with cookie crumbs around your mouth and my cookie jar broken on the floor, that would be circumstantial evidencen you stole cookies.

                       

                      •  Um, we aren't talking about a court case (0+ / 0-)

                        To use the cookie jar example.  If there are cookies missing from the jar then we know, because of physical evidence, that someone has taken a cookie.  If someone destroyed the jar and there were people who would benefit from destroying the jar then there would be a small bit of circumstantial evidence that one of them destroyed the jar.

                        There has never been a court case about whether someone has been murdered, only over whether a specific person murdered them.  If you were going to have a court case over whether someone was murdered then I'd say poison in their medicine jar would be pretty damning physical evidence.

                        Not that they found that.  They didn't find anything. That's why there is circumstantial evidence of murder.

                        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 08:35:46 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Right---You Claimed I was Wrong When I Stated (0+ / 0-)

                          that a medicine bottle would be circumstantial evidence.  

                          However, I was actually correct.  Now that I have politely pointed out your error, in an old diary that no one will be reading, you continue to repeat the same error.

                          Let me be clear, most all physical evidence is circumstantial evidence.  (Note that I say most because, as an experienced lawyer, I know that there may be some exceptions that I am not aware of.)  

                          Circumstantial evidence is evidence that we must draw inferences from.  Missing bottle--the inference you seek to draw from that fact is that the bottle was intentionally destroyed because it contained poison which was used to murder the pope.  

                          If the bottle were located and found to contain poison that would produce symptoms consistent with the pope's death---the inference to be drawn is that the pope was mudrered by the poison contained in the bottle.  

                          So actually the bottle, if never found, or if found and proven to have contained poison, would be circumstantial evidence.  

                          What we are really discussing is whether the inferences drawn from the circumstantial evidence are weak or strong.  I think we would both agree that the inference would be very strong if the pope's medicine bottle were located and shown to contain poison.  Here, we have no dispute.

                          However, I do have a dispute with those who claim that a missing medicine creates an inference that the pope was poisoned.  Nor do I think that the fact the medicine bottle is missing, even when combined with the fact there was no autopsey performed, allows one to infer that the pope was poisoned.

                          Missing medicine bottle combined with no autopsey does not allow reasonable, rational people to infer murder via poisoning.  To the extent that some people are making this claim, they are simply being unreasonable and irrational.  There are many reasons that a medicine bottle might go missing after its owner dies that don't include murder by poisoning.  There are also reasons why a religious leader like a Pope would not have an autopsey performed on his corpse, that don't point to poisoning. And that a religious leader may also have enemies isn't a suprise either.  

                          Let's look at how weak or how strong the inferences are that we can draw from the fact that the Pope's medicine bottle went missing.  To me, the strongest inference is that it was thrown away after the Pope died.  Medicine isn't recycled. Instead, people are told to discard old medicine.  If you were told to clean the Pope's quarters after he died and the body was removed, what would you have done with the bottle?  Me, I most likely would have thrown it in the trash.

                          The inference you seek to draw--that the murderer or murderers came back after the pope was dead and took the bottle to dispose of it, hoping that it would not be missed, is very weak.  Can we say this every time a bottle of medicine is missing and the someone who was taking the medicine dies?  Objects that are lost, misplaced or , inadvertaintly throw away are common occurances, while those stolen by poisoners to cover up their tracks, I think we can both agree, are very unlikely.    

                          What I think happened is that the author of the poison medicine bottle theory picked the bottle as the method of administration because it was missing.  If it were not missing, then a water glass would have been picked, or the prior day's meal, or any of thousand ways poison could be administered.  However, there still would be any evidence supporting the inference that poisoning killed the pope.    

              •  Penny Lernoux (15+ / 0-)

                in her 1990 book People of God, the late Penny Lernoux also went into considerable detail about why she believed the evidence pointed to murder. Lernoux was the longtime Latin American correspondent for The Nation.

                Reasonable people may come to different conclusions, but the death was very suspicious and it is far less than reasonable to assert otherwise.

                •  What "Evidence" Did She Have of Murder? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  caul

                  Other than none?  Because that's exactly what no autopsey and no medicine container leaves you with, no evidence.  No evidence of murder, and certainly no evidence of poison.  

                  •  Pehaps you should read her book (6+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueoasis, DvCM, SeaTurtle, native, G2geek, KenBee

                    and judge for yourself. I knew the author a bit, and trust her journalism, but it has been 20 years since I read it so you will have to forgive me for not remembering the details and choosing not to debate them here.

                    I wonder what knowledge, evidence and sources you bring to the conversation?

                    •  No Evidence Required by Anyone (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      native, Hugin, caul

                      You have no evidence and you can't recall any inside the book you recommend,.

                      Sorry, but why should I read it if you can't recall anything in addition to no autopsey and no medicine container?  

                      I'll tell you what I bring to the conversation, too.  I am a rational, open-minded reader of this diary.  I have reached the conclusion that the diary claims the pope was poisoned based on zero evidence.  As a rational, logical person, I can point out the simple fact that all the supposed "evidence" of poisoning presented, no autopsey conducted and no test for poison, does not come close to proving poisoning.

                      If the author of a diary makes a claim, that author is obligated to present evidence supporting his or her claim.  Here, the author has failed to meet this burden.  And I and anyone else can point this out.  

                      •  thank you (7+ / 0-)

                        for acknowledging that all you bring to the table is a persistent argumentative style and absolutely no knowledge of this or any related matter whatsoever.  

                        I don't recall what Penny Lernoux said that she believed was the cause of death but she is a reputable source. If you actually cared about the matter, you would say thanks, maybe I'll check that out.

                        I carry no brief for the diarist. But I have read Yallop and Lernoux, and for that matter historian Garry Wills (See his book Papal Sins), who thinks that the Curia at the time was a gang of liars, but does not believe that Pope John Paul I was murdered.  You, however, don't even know enough to be able to say that there are highly reputable scholars who have looked into it and not found murder.  

                        •  I'm Sorry--I Guess I Should Accept as Fact Every (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          caul

                          absurd thing I read on the internet, without question.  Oh wait a minute, no I won't.  I'm not so stupid I'll ever do that.  

                          However, you unintentionally make a very good point.  

                          If the author wished to make the argument the the Vatican is a cesspool of rightwingers, corrupt bankers, and pedophiles, there is actually plenty of evidence supporting those claims.  However, she wastes her time, my time, and your time by making the unsupported claim the Pope was poisoned.  

                          So we all waste time discussing her unsupported claim, instead of focusing on what is actually supported by the facts, and what we should do about them.    

                          It's the same thing with the "9/11 Truthers."  The facts show Bush was warned of a terrorist attack, did nothing, and then used 9/11 for propaganda to march for war against Iraq.  Also, the attack was masterminded by Ossama bin Ladin, a CIA asset who we previously used to organise a international Moslem religious insurgency in Afganistan.    

                          Instead of discussing these facts and what to do about them, we discuss how whether or not explosives were planted in the buildings.  Just another distraction and   waste of time.  

                          •  that you waste your time (8+ / 0-)

                            on these things is your business. When you become obnoxious in a comment thread, that is the community's business.

                            The diarist made clear that her main source Yallop only has circumstantial evidence regarding the poison issue, so your demand for "evidence" from the diarist suggests that you did not actually read the diary before objecting to it.

                            The authors who have written about the matter demonstrate that a number of people had motive, means and opportunity to kill the pope, even if there is, and may always be, insufficient evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

                            That you object so mightily to something about which you know nothing says a great deal more about you than it does about anything the diarist has written.

                          •  Making Up Stuff is WRONG (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            caul

                            There isn't any "evidence," direct or circumstantial, that Pope JP was poisoned to death.  That's the point.  

                            Motive, means, and opportunity to kill someone, when you have zero evidence that person was murdered, means nothing.  For example, many people had the motive, means and opportunity to kill Queen Elizabeth I of England, but we have no evidence she was poisoned to death, nevermind murdered.  

                            Many people had the motive means and opportunity to kill our first president, George Washington, but that doesn't show he was poisoned to death, nevermind murdered.

                            You see, I do know quite a bit about logic, evidence, critical thinking and reasoning.  That's why I object to this nonsense.  Here, the claim the Pope was posioned to death is unsupported by any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.          

                          •  You opine vociferously (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            SeaTurtle, G2geek, KenBee, Ginny in CO

                            on matters about which you know nothing, apparently less than nothing.

                            Nuff said.

                          •  Same as You, Concerning the Pope's Death (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            KenBee

                            However, unlike you, I can tell shit from Shinola.  

                          •  no, you can't: you just stepped in it. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Ginny in CO

                            You just succeeded in making yourself out to be aggressively ignorant on the subject matter.

                            If I were you I'd at least scrub the poo off my shoes before going back inside.

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:39:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't always about what is known or specific (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Frederick Clarkson

                            memories of significant ideas or information from all authors. Usually it started with wondering, a question, some knowledge that raised more questions. Because the answers are not readily available does not automatically disqualify the questions. Waiting for new information, often from documents obtained thru FOIA or declassification, may be the only option.

                            Making people aware of what is known  and questionable may be useful for some, not others. The overwhelming reality of forensic, intel and other investigative work is it can involve sifting through mounds of useless stuff before you find the useful.

                            You will never convince the questioners to quit. If you don't care to join, fine. Trying to get a small determined group of people not to pursue knowledge that may reveal important actions to take is quite useless.

                            Please do find something else you are informed on to apply your knowledge of logic, evidence, critical thinking and reasoning.

                            "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                            by Ginny in CO on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 04:02:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree, making stuff up is wrong (0+ / 0-)

                            so kindly point out where the diarist made a positive claim that John Paul I was poisoned. While you're at it, how about pointing to where the diarist "made up" anything, as opposed to simply reporting on actual events and what others have written about them.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 12:48:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Persons close to the Vatican (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Ginny in CO, lotlizard, SeaTurtle

                          have written me and stated that most definitely Luciani was murdered. Infact, it is a settled matter for Italians and other Europeans.  The enduring problem with Vatican affairs is that, other than the source for Nuzzi's book, "Vatican SpA", all negative information comes from anonymous sources.

                •  thanks for the ref to Lernoux's book, FC, (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Frederick Clarkson, G2geek, KenBee

                  this is it?
                  People of God

                  I have not run across her before, so thank you for introducing me to her and her work.

                  I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

                  by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 03:40:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  that's the one (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SeaTurtle, G2geek, KenBee

                    He book Cry of the People is also a must read.

                    •  thanks, I think! :-) (4+ / 0-)

                      today I was tidying my bedroom and the several piles of books on one side table was really high ..... I was wondering if it was going to fall over!  A lot relate to these topics and although read are still there for reference!  Oi Vey!  

                      Anyway, you now have given me some new resources to add to the pile! tx.

                      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

                      by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 04:28:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've had that pile in the bedroom, plus (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SeaTurtle

                        bigger ones in the living room and study...Those are just the ones I'm trying to read. The ones I've read and keep for reference are usually on the book shelves. In April they all got packed for the move and are waiting patiently to be unpacked.  ; )

                        Excuse the rant here, just have to observe that I learned from my very intelligent father not to trust people who won't read books.  He does read a lot of weekly magazines and the paper. Since the internet became available, he doesn't even check out any foreign papers or magazines.

                        Mostly, he doesn't read or trust books. I often have read 2 or 3 carefully selected books (I love Amazon's features and reviews - gives me an idea of what my knowledge gaps are and if the book/s can fill them) that are always noted for the amount and quality of sources, references, etc. while he has read none and just scoffs at the information. PhD who did Corp R & D not Ivory Tower. When he said just because a person had a PhD in the field didn't mean much, I looked at the doctor of physical chemistry, nodded and changed the subject from financial history going back 2000 years to the lunch menu.

                        IMHO, the real proof of obstinate ignorance, despite intelligence, is when you are asked to condense the knowledge gleaned from several complex, lengthy and well resourced books into a blog comment. One of these days I'm going to make a doc with all the search engines :)

                         I remember a comment in some article about an editor for a NY publication who had earned a year sabbatical. Caribbean? Rockies? Pacific? Nope, the NY public library main branch. I still fantasize. Although today, with Kindle and other download options you could have the books and the beach :)

                        Ok, I feel better, hope you don't mind the venting.

                        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                        by Ginny in CO on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 03:39:05 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Frederick is one of the most knowledgeable people (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KenBee, SeaTurtle

                  .... in America on the subject of the religious right.

                  He's a careful scholar who does not jump to conclusions.  His books and articles are foundational for anyone studying the religious right, and his analyses are a core part of the overall analysis of the religious right.

                  So, word to the wise:  If you want to argue with him about this stuff, "good luck," and be sure to take out "look like a fool insurance" because you'll need it.  

                  "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:36:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The Vatican and Catholic affairs have a distinct (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ginny in CO, Frederick Clarkson

                    set of journalists with access to high Church officials. Frederick Clarkson, although knowledgeable about the Religious Right, is not one of them.

                    •  i'm sure the Vatican screens journalists... (0+ / 0-)

                      .... pretty closely before granting them access to high Catholic officials.   In which case I would not expect that someone who is a ferociously capable critic of the religious right, would get access.  

                      Not having access to powerful people does not disqualify someone from analyzing their behaviors.  

                      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 09:04:38 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  If the person is a person of power, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TimmyB, caul

                with natural enemies, then yes, each of those deaths spawns a CT following.

                •  All You Need is a Well Known Person (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  caul, doc2

                  When a well known person dies, you can make some cash by claiming they had one or more enemies who murdered them in an undetected way.  

                  On the other hand, you can also make money by claiming they faked their deaths and are still alive and roaming the Earth.  

                  No evidence of either claim is required.

              •  At least in most states, an autopsy is required .. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TimmyB, G2geek

                when an apparently healthy person dies unexpectedly.  I would imagine that the same is probably true in most developed countries.  That certainly doesn't prove that he was murdered, but it seems somewhat curious that the Vatican refused to have an autopsy, or even a toxicology screen, performed, since that would have prevented the controversy.

                Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

                by leevank on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 01:32:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "Healthy' Person Who Takes Medicine? (0+ / 0-)

                  The missing evidence is claimed to be a medicine bottle.  The fact that there is a medicine bottle suggests the person wasn't healthy, but was sick instead.    

                  •  Oh, come on! (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SeaTurtle, Nowhere Man, G2geek, lotlizard

                    Lots of healthy people take medicine.  Believe me, the fact that you take one or two pills doesn't mean there won't be an autopsy if you die in your sleep some night.  I expect that most 65 year olds take some kind of medication for something or other, but that doesn't mean that if they die in bed, there won't be an autopsy.

                    Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

                    by leevank on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 04:02:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  If it was the Vatican's practise to autopsey Popes (0+ / 0-)

                  then I would agree with you that not doing an autopsey would be suspicious.  However, we don't know that.

                  Instead, as the Catholic Church believes the Pope is God's chosen representative on Earth, I'm willing to bet the Church has never had an autopsey for a pope, and most likely never will.  The pope is the most God like person on Earth and having a doctor mutilate him after death would not be part of the long established religious rituals.

                  These guys are guided by religion, not by what Western countries do.

          •  Just what kind of doc are you? huh?! (20+ / 0-)

            Let me connect the dots;

            1)You claim to be a doctor.
            2) Pope JP1 was killed by poison.
            3) The poison was in his medicine.
            4) The medicine was prescribed by a doctor.
            5) John Paul 1 was followed by JP2 and you are doc2!

            You'll never get away with it!  The Illuminati will hunt you down and make you pay!

        •  No Evidence Pope JP was Murdered Unless (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          doc2, Tonga 23, ivorybill, caul

          we are to believe that everyone who dies without an autopsy being conducted and all of that deceased's medicine bottles were not tested for poison were also murdered.  So using the same evidence presented showing the Pope was murdered, we can conclude that there are millions of people being murdered in this country every year who's deaths were officially listed as being caused by natural causes.  Either that, or the facts presented are extremely weak evidence of murder.      

          Shit, if every one of Pope Pj's medicince bottles were tested for poison, and none was found, one could switch the posion claim to one of his favorite foods or claim poison gas was pumped into his bedroom at night.  Or why don't we go full absurd and claim aliens from another planet, or maybe the Easter Bunny killed him?  

          In sum, you can make up anything you wish, because there is no evidence a rational person could use to conclude the Pope was murdered.  

          •  There aren't millions of apparently HEALTHY ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, G2geek

            people who die unexpectedly in bed at the age of 65 who don't have autopsies, at least not in the United States, and I don't expect in most of Europe either.  So it's not terribly relevant that lots of people die without being autopsied.

            Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

            by leevank on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 01:38:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Healthy People Don't Have Missing Medicine Bottles (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP, caul

              Because "healthy" people don't take medicine.  Instead, sick people take medicine.  

              However, the fact that no autopsey was taken is, as you write, "not terribly relevant."  I agree, it isn't relevant to proving poisoning.  It neither proves or disproves poisoning.  Same with a missing medicine bottle.  The fact that there is a missing medicine bottle neither proves nor disproves poisoning.  Again, it isn't relevant.

      •  yeah, doc2, and those who thought that there (29+ / 0-)

        were no WMD's in Iraq were CT, too?  It depends on what you want to see and how hard others don't want you to see it.  Valerie Plame and her husband certainly suffered a lot because they had the courage to deny the BushCorps lies about this, didn't they.  But truth has come out about that now, hasn't it?

        So, in order to sift through what is CT and what is truth that has been covered up, you need to inform yourself of the facts.

        You are dismissing something without understanding the facts that are being presented to you.  If this diary did not have links to credible sources, then I would agree with you.

        See my comment upthread with plenty of links to credible research on the whole issue.

        I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

        by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:11:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A government lying to further its (5+ / 0-)

          War aims is not unprecedented, and hardly qualifies as a "conspiracy theory". Whenever a politician or person in power dies suddenly, a cottage industry of CT promoters is born. It was 100% predictable that these books on the death of the Pope would be written. Why you guys insist on talking about it here, in a community devoted to electing more and better Democrats, is the question.

          •  A pope being assassinated is far from (21+ / 0-)

            unprecedented, and for large chunks of the history of the church was the norm.  The church is a highly secretive organization, it's far from CT to look at reports of a secretive organization committing crimes.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:30:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And popes being poisoned (Borgias, Medicis et al) (27+ / 0-)

            is not unprecedented either. The "homeoffice" of the Religious Right is the Vatican. No other group in the Religious Right gets the media attention, has the clout, and has almost unlimited financial resources as the U.S. episcopate. Since the Vatican controls the bishops and the bishops are busting their butts to elect Republicans is the only reason I write.

            •  If I may I would like to offer some comments that (10+ / 0-)

              may clarify this is issue a bit. First Karol Wojtyla was not an obscure bishop in a poor country. He was the Price Archbishop of Krakow and the top Catholic prelate in Gdansk the industrial heartland of Poland. Second because of the Polish thing he was widely known in Chicago, which has a huge Polish population and was politically very well connected in the US in the 1970s. He was an observer at Vatican II and a critic. As for Opus De his political connections with American congressman and the polish american political organizations would be more important.

              The Religious Right in this country is a protestant thing. It conflicts with the social teaching of the catholic church ay every level. Read what JPII and Benny the 16th have to say about capitalism and trade unions and feeding the poor. Paul Ryan's budget proposals are denounced in Rome by theologians conservative and liberal as are Republicans thinking on climate change and immigration. The only room for agreement between the two are on abortion and education funding.

              I read Yallop's book and I want to be convinced. But there is a lot of stuff about secret masonic orders and Italian banking scandals fro it to be more than just CT. I would welcome more research into this because the death of John Paul I and the circumstances surrounding it stink to high heaven. John Paul I was a holy man who believed that church teachings needed to be more pastoral, more focused on the lives of regular folks. And he knew from the example of his own family the toll taken by the churches teaching on birth control. He would have been a quieter gentler John XXIII. He would have supported and built upon Vatican II. The Roman Catholic church would be very different.

              Growing up in Chicago you see the Catholic Church get a lot of media attention. Chicago is a Catholic town. Chicago is also an immigrant town and most immigrants to Chicago are Catholic. John Paul II was a known quantity and when he visited he was welcomed as an old friend. Not that I was a supporter but many people in Chicago knew him before he was an bishop. And they loved him even when they disagreed with him. But to conflate even conservative catholicism with the religious right is a mistake.

              •  On the world stage, Wojtyla was an obsure (12+ / 0-)

                churchmen and Poland was an impoverished nation, certainly too poor to provide a prelate with the resources for travel to the Pacific rim, multiple tours of Europe and U.S.

                During the Communist occupation, the Communist Party had final say over who would become a bishop. The Church proposed names which were rejected or accepted. Wojtyla became metropolitan archbishop of Krakow after six other names were rejected because, according to the Polish journalist Kwitney, the head of the Communist Party wanted Wojtyla precisely because of his reputation of "going along to get along."

                Wojtyla was only one of hundreds of prelates in attendance at the Second Vatican Council and none of the histories written about the council say he played any notable role.

                The Religious Right in this country is not a "protestant thing." No group of protestants could have gotten, earlier this year, legislation introduced in both the House and Senate, a congressional hearing, many states attorneys general filing suit on their behalf and three of the four GOP candidates back the bishops' position on something as banal and acceptable to the U.S. population as contraceptives being covered by health insurance.

                Forget all the "pretty" words. Pope Benedict invited Ettore Gotti Tedeschi to co-author his encyclical Caritas in Veritate concerning financial ethics. When as president of the Vatican Bank Gotti Tedeschi tried to implement the pope's own words in the Vatican, he was brutally ousted.

                Does it matter that the bishops write a critique of Ryan's budget proposals when they compare Obama to Hitler and Stalin and call him a despot among other names? (See my diary: http://www.dailykos.com/...)

                •  Well first of all (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TomP, G2geek

                  Wojtyla was appointed bishop by a cardinal who worked with the Soviet authorities Cardinal Wyszyński. It was and is common practice in Europe to give the government power of approval over appointments. This tradition dates back to the Dark Ages and cause many bloody disputes and wars. But as I indicated before he had a lot of powerful friends and allies in America, especially in the Polish American community. They were quite generous and in fact funded his extensive travels. But to write off Poland as weak and insignificant in Eastern Europe is to fundamentally misunderstand the history of the 20th century. Poland was a breadbasket for Eastern Europe as well as a heavy industry powerhouse. The Gdansk shipyards built much of the Soviet navy and was one of the largest producers of steel in the world. Poland's border with Germany was a constant source of worry to the leadership of the Soviet Union after WWII. Poland has been hotly disputed territory since the 1500s and for good reason.

                  And yes there is a  difference between the bishops criticizing Ryan's budget proposal and a single bishop calling Obama a Nazi. I did not say that the church was right, just more complicated than you seem to understand. Just because some conservative lay Catholics cooperate with the Religious Right does not mean that the Religious Right is run be the Catholic church. For one thing the Church believes that most of those in the religious right should become catholic. Second the church does not recognize many of the rights enshrined in the constitution and would prepare to write one for us. Like they did in Ireland in the 1930s.

                  The President is trying to force Roman Catholic institutions to do things they do not want to do. Like many times in history the argument is "Is the Church subject to secular control?" And the churches answer is no. like when priests refused to sign an oath of loyalty to the French government during the French Revolution. The church is looking out for what they see as their own interests. Like when they made an agreement with Hitler to keep quiet as long as they could run their own schools and continue to receive taxpayer subsides.

                  •  Your command of history is wide (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fastwacks

                    and accurate.  I don't agree, however, with all your conclusions.    It's not just some Catholic secular leaders in our country cooperating with the religious right.  A number of the Bishops have pushed the exact same agenda.  The Church does not run the religious right, but they are on a parallel track heading in the same direction, cooperating with each other when necessary.   (Of course, the religious right does not consider Catholics as Christians, and Catholic leadership maintains that only members of the Catholic faith in good standing will have eternal life. But each group serves a purpose presently for the other.)

                    Yes, priests resisted the government in France, as some did in Germany and in most worn torn countries.  Priests end up on the winning and losing sides of political conflicts, and on the side of the people and others on the side of power.  But more often than not, the Church sides with a right wing type of power.

                    "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

                    by Going the Distance on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:14:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  The only reason protestant evangelicals (6+ / 0-)

                  Wouldn't have lobbyists putting up a bill against the ACA contraception provisions is that they don't run hospitals or universities that employ/serve the public at large.

                  The religous right in this country is most definitely a Southern/rural thing, it is based in states traditionally hostile to Catholicism. The fact that the Catholic Bishops have so much influence in Congress is that they have formed alliances with evangelical antiabortion groups and the Fox News crowd.

                  "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                  by Alice in Florida on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:57:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And now both (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Don midwest, G2geek, KenBee

                    Catholics and Southern Baptists believe God Commands they vote for a Mormon to be POTUS just because God has to hate the half-black guy. My God, that's some seriously twisted-up theological porridge from notable child abusers, polygamists and wife-beaters!

                    •  prez candidate santorum catholic (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Joieau

                      just sayin...

                      From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

                      by KenBee on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:34:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, sure they (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Alice in Florida

                        tried to go for the gold. Deal is, Santorum didn't make it to the finals. Nor did Bachmann or anyone else from the mainstream theocratic wannabes. Apart from Paul and Gingrich the R field was a fine collection of religio wingnuts vying for the title of Most Likely To Abolish The Constitution.

                        Mitt bought the nomination as just another punch in his Mormon ticket to Planetary Godhood, so the rest of the ostensibly Christian contenders have to swallow their revulsion and trust him to make good on their shared goal to abolish the US of A and institute the Holy Mammon Empire [rhymes with Mormon, but more specific].

                        And to me, the creepiest part of it is that Mitt - while as sleazy-slick and full of lies as any politician ever - is probably the sanest of the bunch.

                  •  I guess you never heard of Utah? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    KenBee

                    The fundy right has joined the Catholic right big time on many issues and they've buried the hatchet on old rivalries just like they did with the Israeli far right and conservative Mormons. They're all of a piece now, joined at the hip to defeat liberals of all pursuasions.

                    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

                    by cacamp on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:44:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Regarding the religious right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek

                You are absolutely correct that the Religous right arises from protestant evangelical sects that have traditionally been quite hostile to the Catholic church, except that they are now more and more often joining forces to fight abortion, birth control and marriage equality. While it's wrong to say the Bishops are part of the religous right, they have become close allies in recent years.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:58:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's incorrect (11+ / 0-)

                  If you're old enough to remember, evangelicals had little interest in political activism before Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. It was the Catholic neocons, let by Paul Weyrich, who hired Falwell, chose the name the "Moral Majority" and set down his agenda and methods.

                  Also, if you're old enough to remember, evangelicals had little interest in abortion and birth control (marriage equality wasn't even a subject back then) before the organization of the Religious Right.

                  You're correct that there was a mutual animosity between Catholics and evangelicals before the 1970s. The creation of "issues" such as abortion were carefully selected and engineered to bring both Catholic and Protestant conservatives into a single voting bloc.

                  The bishops are not only members, but are the leaders of the Religious Right since they expound the chosen "issue(s)" of each election year e.g. "Religious Freedom" in 2012.

                  •  Evangelicals had little interest in politics (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TomP, G2geek

                    untill they understood that Jimmy Carter was a liberal. They were late to the antiabortion movement in part because they believed that evangelicals should stay out of politics and concentrate on preparing for the Lord return. Why did Paul Weyrich recruit jerry Falwell. Because he could not find any priest to head the movement. The Catholic hierarchy in America at the time was more attuned to the reforms and values of Vatican II. Protestants did not want to be told they could not use birth control. Evangelicals focus was on American politics, Catholics more concerned globally.

                    Reagan appealed to blue collar workers Catholic and Protestant alike. But he never really embraced either side. People like Weyrich (a lay Catholic) were only interested in furthering a conservative revolutionary movement. I think you fail to understand that over the past 35 years the political and social attitudes of the bishops has swung further right. But when the religious right was created the leadership of the Catholic church was pretty liberal, at laest in Catholic terms.

                    The entry of Catholic bishops into American electoral politics is a very bad thing. But it is also a very new thing. And I think you will find that it is driving many catholics from the church. If the bishops are not careful they will find that American Catholicism has turned into French Catholicism where less than 5% consider themselves catholic.

                    •  Weyrich recruited Falwell because the neocons (7+ / 0-)

                      needed conservative Protestants to vote Republican. There were never enough Catholics to carry a national election.

                      Catholic bishops appointed by Roncalli and Montini were politically active but in the cause of labor, civil rights, anti-nuclear and for peace especially in Latin America during the Reagan administration. JPII changed the U.S. episcopate from liberal to tea party.

                      •  As a former Catholic it saddens me to see what (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SeaTurtle, G2geek, cacamp, KenBee

                        has happened to the Catholic Church. In Chicago there was a cardinal named Joseph Bernardine. He was tolerant open and kind. He also faced the beginning of the child abuse scandal head on. He pursued a policy of openness and asked for forgiveness for the Church. He also instituted a policy that any priest accused of abuse be turned over to the authorities. Instead of denying the problem he worked with groups like SNAP. And he was over ruled by Rome. They stopped him cold in his tracks. He was also the president of the US Conference of Bishops when they publicly denounced Reagan's nuclear weapons policy.

                        Of course after he died he was replaced by an arch conservative Francis George who has made a mockery of Bernardine's legacy.

                  •  Exactly! (7+ / 0-)

                    The BBC's estimable documentarian Adam Curtis wrote on his blog about how and why Weyrich ginned up the religious right on his blog. There's video at the link as well.

                    One of the leaders of the New Right was a man called Paul Weyrich, and in the wake of the student revolts of 1968 he infiltrated the meetings of left-wing grassroots organisations. He was astonished by the amount of planning and tactics that he saw and he realised that the conservative movement in America was completely unaware of all this. The right, he said, were still trapped by the belief that people would simply vote for them because they were right.

                    So the New Right set out to organise a new grassroots movement that could counter the left's success. They had all sorts of discussions and during one of them Weyrich pointed out that there were millions of Americans who were socially and culturally very conservative but who never voted. They were the religious fundamentalists and the evangelicals - a vast segment of the population who believed that they should never get involved in politics.

                    Weyrich realised that if you could activate the fundamentalists and the evangelicals then the New Right could create an incredibly powerful force

                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/...

                    "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

                    by cotterperson on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:41:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  the trick is to spot today's young Weyriches... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lotlizard, cotterperson

                      ... and do whatever it takes to neutralize them and prevent them becoming tomorrow's grownup and dangerous Weyriches.

                      Think of how different the world would be today if someone had managed to get the original Paul Weyrich stoned on pot and turned him into a hippy, or persuaded him to join the Hare Krishnas instead, or ... (fill in the blanks: add your own scenarios here).

                      For that matter think of how different the world would be today if someone had managed to get to Newt Gingrich when he was young, and persuade him to take enough LSD to dissolve his narcissistic ego before it metastasized into a national tumor.

                      Early intervention works!  

                      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:00:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  evangelicals had little interest (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    in politics from the '20's to the 80's. Prior to that they were a major force. They weren't created out of whole cloth by the catholics, or Reagan, or Wayrich.

                    Try to shout at the right buildings for a few months.

                    by nickrud on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:50:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  this disease runs in waves. (0+ / 0-)

                      The rabid religious right is a national affliction that apparently comes and goes in waves.  

                      We may be nearing the end of the current wave, or it may be that there are further steps needed to take before it recedes again and goes back to its dormant phase.  

                      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:01:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you have it backwards (0+ / 0-)

                    If it was a Catholic who joined forces with Fallwell to create the religous right it must have been because he understood that he needed Baptists, not Catholics, to  be the foot soldiers of the movement.

                    And the movement would have gone nowhere if there hadn't been an audience for it. The religous right was based on the "Southern Strategy" and the antiabortion movement found a receptive audience on white southerners afraid of being out-reproduced by black people.

                    The Bishops alliance with the religous right is mostly recent.

                    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                    by Alice in Florida on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 01:15:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Yes allies, but only as long as suits the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hillbilly Dem

                  Catholic church. They could just as easily change sides when it suits them.

              •  Conservative Catholicism often enough teams up (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Don midwest

                … with the evangelical Right and the Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) when it comes to politics.

                Happened (and is still happening) in Hawaii in a very blatant way regarding same-sex marriage.

                The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

                by lotlizard on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 04:59:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Why? For the same reasons you wrote about (17+ / 0-)

            in your excellent diaries on Santorum:
            Santorum wants our porn now.  Do these people even know what it means to be an American?

            I knew that they'd eventually go after porn. But I thought that they would stay with the War on Women a little longer.  I thought that they would go after women wearing pants in the workplace, and then start talking about repealing the 19th Amendment (which gave women the right to vote).  I thought porn had more time.  I was wrong.

            In terms of how many people look at it, porn is America's most popular product. You fuck with our porn, you are fucking with the wrong people.  If Rick Santorum hadn't crossed the line before, he certainly has now.  We are proud Americans. We masturbate, and we vote!*

            *Not at the same time, of course.

            (funny last two lines, btw.)

            and
            Rick Santorum uses own dead child to slander the pro-choice movement

            Keep in mind, his son was born during the second trimester, so would have been in the Roe v. Wade abortion window.  Santorum took a stupid statement made by one guy - a guy who works for Fox News! - and spinning it as representing pro-choice people who think that dead second-trimester fetuses are just peachy. He turned his own personal tragedy into a lie, and then ran with it in order to score points in the culture wars and gain more support among the more extreme anti-abortionists.

            He took the most personal thing, and is using it as chum in the hunt for a friggin' political office.

            I agree with both of your diaries.  However to truly understand Santorum's 'culture wars' you have to understand that he is an uber conservative member of Opus Dei and is promoting AT EVERY TURN in Congress the Vatican's very regressive culture war perspective.  

            So, these discussions about what is happening in the Vatican and what happened have immediate impact because the Vatican has people here, Santorum a prime example, who are following their uber conservative culture wars philosophy.  Not only no abortion, no contraception, for example.  And forget about it if you are gay.

            If we are willing to have our abortion, voting, and even porn rights taken away from us by this sharia like movement, then don't make the connection.  For those of us who want women to continue to have the freedom that has been earned and other rights, it is crucial that we inform ourselves with what we are dealing.

            You ask:

            Why you guys insist on talking about it here, in a community devoted to electing more and better Democrats, is the question.
            Because we are fighting the literal representatives of the Opus Dei faction of the Vatican in our presidential and congressional races.  

            THAT'S WHY.

            I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

            by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:41:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Movements to support conservatives and to destroy, (19+ / 0-)

            attack, defeat, eliminate liberals are not limited by national borders.  

            The Catholic Church has a long history of supporting conservative politicians within the USA and right-wing dictators elsewhere.  The church opposes liberal policies and politicians in many ways.  The church has been shown to be involved in shady financial dealings and the sex scandals are by now well-accepted as fact.

            The sex scandals show that the church is not morally opposed to more liberal policies - like choice or marriage equality - but only politically motivated to continue to push conservatism while going to great lengths to protect true moral degenerates while exposing ever more children to dangerous life-ruining predators.  These actions extended to the highest levels of the church.

            How anyone can claim that this information is not pertinent to a site dedicated to electing "more and better Democrats" is beyond me. . . .  

            The Catholic Church is an enormous political entity and influence throughout the world.  It would seem obvious why such things are pertinent here.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:07:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yucatan Man, you said it better than I did. (7+ / 0-)
            •  Catholicism is political and has been since (12+ / 0-)

              Constantine. The Catholic church believes religious freedom is bad because "error has no right". The Catholic church believes that taxpayers should fully fund roman catholic schools and ban all others. The catholic church believes freedom is speech is harmful and you should not be able to criticize your political leadership. They believe in a state religion as long as it is Roman Catholicism.

              Here in the United States they accommodate themselves to the realities of life in a multicultural society. But if they got the chance the would ban Protestantism in a heartbeat. In their perfect world only catholicism would be allowed. And elected officials would submit themselves to church authority. I am a former catholic who is now an agnostic. I am not hostile to religion even Roman Catholicism. But if you want to know how Catholic leaders really feel when they are in a position to do things their way just look at the modern history of the Republic of Ireland. The Catholic church stopped a program in 1948 that was mean to provide health care to mothers and children because it was seen as interfering with the role of the church to give advice to families.

              •  YucatanMan and kmackle know what happens in (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan, cotterperson, G2geek, KenBee

                countries where the Catholic Church has great influence and power and should be read by Americans, especially Republicans, who think that theocracy is a desirable form of government.

                •  Thank you for that kind comment (6+ / 0-)

                  I remember my mother and father telling me stories about how stifling the church was on daily life in Ireland. At the dances the priest patrolling the outside of the hall looking for young people kissing. The corporal punishment handed out by school teachers. The condemnation and humiliation of the poor. And to then as an adult find out about the horrors of the Magdalena schools and the interference of bishops in Irish politics. The interference in referendums on divorce. The condemnation of Irish TV host Gay Burne when, on late night TV he showed the Irish nation what a condom was and how to use it. And the continued arrogance of the top cardinal in Ireland Sean O'Brady and his refusal to resign despite being in over his head in a number of child abuse cases where he personally assisted in the cover-up.

                  •  The church was a vital part of the corraling of (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SeaTurtle, Noelle in MPLS, G2geek, AoT, KenBee

                    the Mayan people in Yucatan, herding them into disease spreading "reductions" (villages) and greatly contributing to the 90% loss of population after the Spanish invasion.  

                    The Inquisition came to the Yucatan as well and resulted in the wholesale destruction of every Mayan codice (book or scroll) that the friars could put their hands upon, along with the torture, crippling and murder of thousands upon thousands.  With the priests forbidden to draw blood or break skin, they devised horrific bone-breaking, socket-popping, muscle-tearing tortures that left victims to starve since they couldn't even feed themselves afterwards.

                    The carnage was so great that local Conquistadores complained to the king that the Church was reducing the number of slaves available to work.  Go figure.

                    The last of the revolutions was a peasant rebellion against the church and it's role in subjugating native peoples for nearly 4 centuries.

                    As recent actions have shown, the church is ready and willing to stomp down kindness and charity whenever possible (censure of the American nuns' org, persecution of the indigenous priests who meld Catholic rite with historic ritual, etc).   Anything that brings comfort to the poor is strictly eschewed by the male hierarchy.

                    Ratzinger was head, after all, of the Office of the Inquisition (no lie).  The irony is that he's not as popular as the pope who knew about, and made deals regarding, the murder of a pope and his political ambitions for various nations.  

                    It wasn't so much that JPII wanted to bring Christianity to Communist nations, but that he wanted to bring Catholicism to conservative peoples to refill the organization's fundraising abilities and need for warm bodies. (IMHO)

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 03:22:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It appears to be an agent of evil also (0+ / 0-)

              The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

              by a2nite on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 03:05:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Because the Pope installs Bishops and (5+ / 0-)

            Cardinals in this country who are bent on destroying our liberties.

            "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

            by Going the Distance on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:49:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  "An obscure Pope" who was only obscure (4+ / 0-)

        because he didn't live to have much of a name. Sort of like condemning the dead for not living, isn't it?

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:54:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  To read about the evidence, D11, and (26+ / 0-)

      to inform your opinion you can read Betty's other diaries
      List of Betty's Diaries

      and her excellent book:
      The Neo-Catholics

      And after you have done that, go to Talk2Action and read

       and/or go to Frank Cocozzelli's search page

      There is a massive amount of information out there and obviously new information is developing on this.

      It is hard to cross the divide from thinking of a church as all good and see, at least in the part of its hierarchy, that it has acted in very corrupt ways to maintain its power.  

      It is imperative that we try to inform ourselves on this and cross this divide with evidence, since unfortunately the rcxch is also now a major political player along with the religious reich and trying to impose their regressive views on the rest of American society.

      That should give us plenty of incentive to do so.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 07:57:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How about pointing to 1 strong piece of evidence (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too, liberte

        that shows Pope John Paul 1 was poisoned?  I'm not talking about someone who heard from someone who knew someone else...  I'm talking about physical evidence that has been confirmed by an unbiased source.

        •  Given that the church never allowed an (7+ / 0-)

          investigation and likely never will there isn't going to be any physical evidence in cases like this.  I don't know all the details of the case and I haven't read any accounts of him being murdered so I don't know how plausible or likely they are, but the idea that a pope would be poisoned because of intra-church politics is not at all surprising or really terribly uncommon.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:07:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not all that uncommon? (0+ / 0-)

            Maybe it would relieve some of my skepticism if you could provide a link to some other recent Papal murder evidence.

            •  Do you not know the history of the Church (6+ / 0-)

              and the Papacy?  Even minus the especially rocky times with the Medicis there's an assassination every couple of hundred of years, and those are the ones we do have evidence for.  I really can't believe you find the idea that a pope might have been murdered by people in the church so outlandish.  This is a millennia old, secretive organization that is known to have committed conspiracies to cover up all sorts of wrong doing.

              And to be clear, this is about the church, not catholics in general.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:49:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  My Pleasure. Per Wiki: List of murdered popes (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, G2geek, KenBee

              Your use of the word "recent" is troublesome because during the 20th century, for example, their were only 8 Popes. But throughout history we are provided with plenty of mystery:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11

              by parsonsbeach on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 01:21:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  show me a Higgs Boson. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, SeaTurtle

          You do know, don't you, how particle physics is done, and how the LHC works?

          Essentially it's like running two automobiles around a track in opposite directions and smashing them into each other head-on, and trying to figure out how an automobile works by watching the pieces that fly apart after the collision.

          And it works.  It works so blazingly well that as of last night we've got one more piece of the Standard Model in place, having passed the threshold whereby there is only one chance in a million that the findings are mistaken.

          Sometimes all you can observe are the pieces that fly from the collision, because there is no way to observe the inner workings of the system itself in its raw state.

          That's also how the majority of investigative journalism works.

          And very often, by analyzing something from the visible pieces, you can make accurate inferences about what's going on inside.  

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:15:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Precisely. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      liberte, Hugin, TomP, Denver11

      The claims here are so outlandish that some genuinely solid evidence is required to support it.

      I loathe the current Vatican leadership and feel strongly that John Paul II essentially destroyed both the legacy of Vatican II and the Church as a whole; but this is just too 'soap opera' to stand on its own two feet without unimpeachable and persuasive evidence.

      •  The Vatican is an independent, sovereign nation (8+ / 0-)

        What are you thinking? That a CSI team is going to pull up to the papal apartment and start gathering evidence?

        You think the Vatican has been around since the Emperor Constantine because they don't know to cover their tracks and lie convincingly. Both pollwatcher and Ralphdog seriously underestimate the advantage the Vatican has of being an independent and sovereign nation totally immune to and shielded from all law enforcement agencies.

        •  Betty, from what I've been reading... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonga 23, Denver11

          ... it seems that you are skating to the edge of the ad hominem attack line with Doc2, Ralphdog and pollwatcher.  They are questioning the evidence related to this diary, while you and SeaTurtle seem to be taking it personally.  They appear to believe that there is some ambiguity in some of the facts presented here, they have that right.

          I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

          by Hey338Too on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:08:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks, Hey338Too. You are correct. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too, cotterperson
          •  Unfortunately they aren't questioning the evidence (8+ / 0-)

            They are instead not looking at evidence and calling it CT.

            They appear to believe that there is some ambiguity in some of the facts presented here, they have that right.
            Claiming people are spreading conspiracy theories is not questioning facts.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:24:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wrong. Questioning evidence is what I'm doing. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nickrud, Tonga 23, Denver11, Hey338Too

              The original diary does not present any objective evidence. It cites assertions by a well known writer of crime & punishment pot-boilers and an anti-Vatican scandal rag. David Yallop should not be anyone's standard of reliable evidence, unless you are aiming for a John Stossel level of 'accuracy'.

              Don't get me wrong; as I've said above, I despise current Vatican leadership. Actual real world evidence indicates that it is breathtakingly incompetent, grotesquely devoted to shielding pedophiles from prosecution, and financially corrupt.

              But this diary makes extraordinary claims, ranging from diplomatic skullduggery to the supposed murder of a Pope(!) without presenting any actual evidence beyond third-hand unsubstantiated assertions by 'journalists' with quite dubious track records.

              •  Yet you claim "real world evidence" without (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis, SeaTurtle, G2geek, KenBee

                citations that the Vatican is "breathtakingly incompetent, grotesquely devoted to shielding pedophiles and financially corrupt" and then claim that I am making "extraordiary claims" about "diplomatic skullduggery" and a "supposed murder"?

                •  I didn't write a diary, friend. Burden's on you. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hey338Too

                  I didn't put unsupported assertions out there as the body of a published Daily Kos diary for public comment. Doing so requires a level of evidence & documentation of inflammatory assertions, or you take your lumps.

                  I could spend the next two days listing documentation for my comments; I would start with Gary Wills' wonderful book Papal Sin, which goes into great detail about the Banco Ambrosiano scandal among other topics. But life's too short for me to spend more time on this. And I didn't write a diary requiring some evidence to back up its extraordinary claims.

                  Did I write anything that is factually incorrect?
                  I believe you are descending to the ad hominen here.

    •  There is enough reason to find JP2 odious. (0+ / 0-)

      You don't need this set of allegations in a CT diary. If this level of allegations were about the Obama admin, it would be HR'd.

      "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

      by shmuelman on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:24:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If these occurred in the Obama admin we would (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, SeaTurtle, G2geek, AoT, KenBee

        have proof from records, law enforcement, a free press, and a lot of Americans who would be most willing to uncover evidence and present a case.

        The Vatican is not an open country. There are no police, no opponents, no records, no independent witnesses. It is run by clerics each of whom has a vested interest in covering-up and protecting the status-quo.

        It is damnably difficult to get anything straight about the Vatican were it not for the occasional whistleblower. Although this year it seems that there are more and more and even those inside the Vatican are wavering.

    •  It wouldn't be the first time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek

      that the Vatican was up to its eyeballs in criminality. Just check out the history of the institution, going back to the 12th century. More than a few of those Popes would make Dick Cheney look like an angel. The Catholic Church has always been primarily concerned with raw power. It still is.

      "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

      by native on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 04:33:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  RICO should apply to the whole organization. (32+ / 0-)
    The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering, and it allows for the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them, closing a perceived loophole that allowed someone who told a man to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because they did not actually do it.
    RICO was enacted by section 901(a) of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 (Pub.L. 91-452, 84 Stat. 922, enacted October 15, 1970). RICO is codified as Chapter 96 of Title 18 of the United States Code, 18 U.S.C. § 1961–1968. While its original use in the 1970's was to prosecute the Mafia as well as others who were actively engaged in organized crime, its later application has been more widespread.
    It has been speculated that the name and acronym were selected in a sly reference to the movie Little Caesar, which featured a notorious gangster named Rico. The original drafter of the bill, G. Robert Blakey, refused to confirm or deny this.[1] G. Robert Blakey remains an expert on RICO;[2] his former student Michael Goldsmith also gained a reputation as one of the nation's leading RICO experts.[3]

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 07:59:49 AM PDT

  •  I heard about this long ago ... 1979 (19+ / 0-)

    I was in Mexico city and, among the people I knew, opinion was really divided between calling him Polish scum and wanting to believe that someone outside the Italian mafia was surely good. And he knew the right buttons to push to gin popular support.

    Certainly, his actions toward the liberal Vatican II priests and theologians and to any criticism of the Vatican or conservative political moves speak for themselves. There seems to be some circumstantial evidence to support JPII's corruption but ... I imagine really hard, incontrovertible proof would be hard to establish so we are stuck with his canonization both in the church and in secular society.

    "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

    by CorinaR on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:10:40 AM PDT

    •  The initial reaction of Italians having lived with (12+ / 0-)

      the Vatican and its history - the Borgias, the Medicis et al -was that Luciani was murdered. As an Italian American, that was my initial reaction as soon as I heard it on the radio. And yes, the consensus was that this is something which can never be proven. The members of the curia have an historical memory and knowledge of how things "get done." Machiavelli was an Italian.

      •  me too. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, SeaTurtle

        I remember where I was when I heard the news on the radio, and my very first thought was, "oh shit, somebody poisoned him!"  And then, "the replacement pope is going to be a right-winger."  The latter hypothesis is by now clearly confirmed.

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:25:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  read, CorinaR and read different sources.... (15+ / 0-)

      a lot of evidence is coming to light.

      The Vatican Banking Scandal is fact, not circumstantial.  And there are others things that are now being confirmed as fact.

      It wouldn't be as important to inform ourselves about this, if the current Vat was not meddling in our politics in a most regressive way.  But they are, so we must inform ourselves to protect ourselves so that we know with whom we are dealing.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:20:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, the Vatican is trying to control US politics (14+ / 0-)

        through the pope's control of the U.S. episcopate. That was the reason the neocons groomed and got Wojtyla elected just as they did Ronald Reagan in addition to protecting their "offshore" financial institution.

        •  Let me see if i have this straight (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          puzzled, AoT

          The vatican is attempting to control US politics, but US political operatives got the Pope elected. So it's US political operatives controlling the vatican, in order to protect offshore financial institutions. Who is controlling who?

          •  Thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity (7+ / 0-)

            The Religious Right was conceived and executed by the neocons. Needing the organizational strength and the global financial network only the Catholic Church could provide, they engineered the placement of both John Paul II and Reagan in leadership positions. The Vatican is an absoute monarchy and in sole control of all appointments and promotions of hierarchs. So once they had "their man" in there, through their financial support and control of the media, they were able to keep JPII in line (up until Wojtyla was dying and he denounced the invasion of Iraq.)

            So ultimately, since they have the money, the plutocrats control the Vatican, but the Vatican willingly is complicit since it's focus is maintaining it's own wealth and power through support of the plutocrats' political agenda.

            Think of the Holy Roman Empire or the ancien regimes. The prelates urged the people to docile acceptance of tyrants and in return, the monarch supported the Church and feigned obsequiousness to the bishops.

            I apologize for not being clearer and hope this helps.

             

      •  As a non Roman Catholic and a little cog (9+ / 0-)

        there is not much that I can do personally except chip away at those that call JPII a saint and think that he was progressive compared to the the present pope ... and I do that. I also work for progressive politics and to keep religion out of our government.

        I am not a JPII fan by any means but I don't really keep up with all the new revelations. If these things prove to be true and the fast track canonizaton has already happened, what can be done?  How do you change a hand picked and densely packed curia ... or maybe one will take his theology seriously and try to change things ... but that idd not work well for JPI, did it?

        "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

        by CorinaR on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:31:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The reason I wrote this and others is to discredit (14+ / 0-)

          the Catholic Church to the point that it will lose its ability to influence U.S. politics. Certainly having a Religious Right icon taken down a notch or two. So, thanks CorinaR, if we all chip away eventually the fact that the current hierarchy of the Church are amoral, corrupt men will limit their influence in this country.

          •  There needs to be an alternative (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, mashed potatoes, Jim P

            Many Catholics want to keep their faith without the hierarchy. We've investigated the "American Catholic Church" and others. If there were a viable alternative, there would be even more drop off.

            •  There's been a few more that I know of (6+ / 0-)

              There's the Ecumenical Catholic Church and the parishes under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Women Priests. There's the Old Catholic Church which split with Rome in the 19th century over papal infallibility and others and probably more that I don't know of.

              Of course there's always Episcopal, Lutheran and Orthodox churchs which have a liturgy similar to the Mass.

            •  This was done during the Reformation. Why not now? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SeaTurtle, 3goldens

              A clergy with the ability to marry would attract an entirely new cohort of priests who wish to minister to people, rather than the elderly crew of aging priests who's first reaction is to quash independent thought or suppression of scandal.  It would bring a breath of fresh air to an organization having a leadership from within a shrinking talent pool and the results are showing.  An increasingly foreign born clergy is becoming less relevant to American Catholics who appear to be voting with their feet.  

              And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

              by MrJersey on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:22:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The only ones who can do this (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, SeaTurtle

                are the ones in the pews and the ones in the pulpits ... outsiders can only support, not instigate.

                Can you live with excommunication and shunning? I've seen it work and what it does to people ... it takes lots of faith and uncommon guts to live with it and stay in the same theological community.

                "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

                by CorinaR on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:51:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excommunication if you accept it (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CorinaR, SeaTurtle

                  That's actual doctrine.
                  Two people in my section of the church walked out during the anti-mandate sermon Sunday. There were probably half the normal attendees and the report in the bulletin had the collection down a quarter from last year this time.

                  •  Send copies of your donation checks (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SeaTurtle

                    made out to organizations / political groups you support in lieu of donations to the church. Let them know specifically how you feel in the way that really hurts.

                    "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

                    by shmuelman on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:33:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Betty (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, AoT, KenBee

            have you read the book Constantine's Sword? It is a historical documentation of the treatment of Jews within Roman Catholicism prior to the Holocaust. It completely avoids Godwin's law by concentrating solely on Roman Catholic church activities and generally avoids Nazi Germany. The idea is that even before th Holocaust Christian Europe was guilty of the most horrendous crimes against Jews people as a whole. And that antisemitism is not unique to Nazis.

            •  Yes, I've read Constantine's Sword (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KenBee

              I don't know what "Godwin's law" is but I think the issue of Nazi Germany and antisemitism has already been covered at length by others and, perhaps, that's why it wasn't covered. But "Constine's Sword" certainly is a horrendous account of the history of antisemitism in Europe up until that time.

              •  'Godwin's law' wiki here (0+ / 0-)

                here

                a good read, to me the core message is avoid it if you want to communicate, or expect it as the case may be...

                Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
                and..
                While falling afoul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.[10] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[11] Some have suggested a counter axiom where a fallacious invoking of Godwin's Law results in the person automatically losing the debate.[12]
                and it's use as a tool for threadjacking is unparallelled.

                the end.

                From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

                by KenBee on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:51:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Thank You - N/T (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, cotterperson

    "Upward, not Northward" - Flatland, by EA Abbott

    by linkage on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:41:26 AM PDT

  •  what a surprise (14+ / 0-)

    Murder, perverted sex, financial corruption, and general thuggery in the catholic church. Who could possibly have imagined such things?

    "Life is a bitch, and then you die. And then you come back." Old Buddhist proverb

    by RubDMC on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:41:34 AM PDT

  •  careful with the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, Tonga 23

    "Pope John Paul I – was murdered" stuff.  Could be described as conspiracy theory.

    Oh, and from what I've read, it's customary not to do an autopsy on a pope.


    "A recent study reveals Americans' heads are larger than they were 150 years ago but sadly there is no indication that the extra room is used for anything." - entlord

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:01:25 AM PDT

  •  Catholics make me sick. (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishtroller01, a2nite
    Hidden by:
    Anak

    Well, not the ones who left the Church after it got busted for running the biggest kiddie rapist ring in the world.

    Just the ones who stayed with it.

    •  anti-Catholic bigots make me sick (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musing85, lgcap

      Well, not the one's who direct their anger at pedophiles and those who protected them.

      Just the ones who presume to understand the motives of Catholics who remain in the church and who condemn all such Catholics with a broad brush.

      •  If you mean the ones that continue (5+ / 0-)

        to fund an organization that has an ongoing role in covering up the abuse, sexual and otherwise, of children, and continue to fund it voluntarily, then they most certainly are morally culpable.  I don't blame the folks who go to Catholic mass because they think they will go to hell if they don't.  I blame the ones who fund a corrupt church.  And more so, far, far more so, I blame the church hierarchy.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:32:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  more reasonable, I suppose (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Anak

          First, Laffy, I apologize for coming across as angry and flippant. I reacted in anger to a comment I unfairly took as a direct attack (I am an atheist but my family and my wife's are devout Catholics). I shouldn't have done that.

          But I am sure you and AoT recognize that the Church funds all kinds of worthwhile activities with the moneys derived from the contributions of the faithful.

          For instance, here in Detroit the Archdiocese is one the largest and most effective sources of support for the most vulnerable in times of crisis. Food for the hungry. Heating assistance for the cold. Clothing for those who need it. Emergency funds for medicine. Shelters for the homeless.

          The hierarchy must be held to account and there has been too little of that in my view. You are also fair, I think, in suggesting the laity bear some responsibility for holding their own church to account. But I think you also realize church funds and resources are not exclusively used to cover up the abuse.

      •  The Church has become a political organization (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        Catholics are now instructed endlessly from the pulpit that voting Republican is an article of faith. There is absolutely no question about the political drive of the Church, and since it lacks foundation in Christian ideals, the reasons for this particular indoctrination are surly suspect.

        Devout Catholics of conscience today struggle with their commitment to the institution. Many have abandoned it, or continue with the ritual absently. The Catholic Church has assumed the hate fill philosophy of the right wing. There are Catholics who believe the foundation of Christianity is Infinite Forgiveness, not Endless Judgment. Those people are entirely fucked as they retain a commitment to Catholicism.

    •  Pedophiles assume positions of trust (0+ / 0-)

      so that they can prey on their victims. The Catholic Church was despicable, but no different from Penn State. The distinction is the scale of the institution, that's all. There are cover-ups in every institution that confronts the issue, from the Hasidic community to independent backwater Fundy churches all over the country.

      Institutions protect their own.

  •  Is the Vatican funding the Rethugs? (5+ / 0-)

    With the open flood gates of Citizens United, I am really concerned and it is worth probing if the Vatican is donating money to RMoney and the Rethugs.

    The hottest parts of Hell (worst karma on earth for generations) is reserved for the conservatives in the Robert's Court who pushed Citizens United.

  •  Piece of systemic attack needed on power structure (12+ / 0-)

    Thank you for the ongoing series of columns on the Vatican.

    A few years ago the current pope said that homosexuality and gay marriage, that these were more important issues than the destruction of the Brazilian rain forest.

    The 1% and their various supporters, like the Catholic Church, have been successful in wedge issues as part of an overall propaganda effort that keeps the real issues off the table.

    At some time the lying and support of bad people by the Catholic Church will come out.

    The issues faced in the us like education, environment, jobs, etc. need a broad approach like OWS.

    There are so many things to say.

    Here is just one more. How can the right wing and churches continue with their level of support when they wage a war on women?

    In particular, Nuns are part of the group to be attacked by the Catholic Church.

    •  Thanks for enumerating some of the harmful (6+ / 0-)

      effects the Catholic Church has had on the commonweal.

    •  Nuns are being attacked right now (9+ / 0-)

      and they were attacked in the past when they became part of the so called "New Age" movement and embraced group therapy, open and gay/lesbian sexuality and critical thinking and analysis of those strengthening movements within Roman Catholicism that countered the true and lovely message of The Beatitudes and the one message of Jesus - Love.  The nuns were demonized (isn't that bizarre?) because many did not reject the core messages of the Beatitudes and Love - did not accept the anti-Love focus of the conservatives and the haters of Vatican II, including, one presumes, Pope Benedict.

      •  By the way, like Anne Rice, I left my beloved (6+ / 0-)

        RC church (the joy of my childhood - and my home through High School) when I left for the Air Force and began reading existential writers (Camus, Sartre) and took my rich background of an international Catholic education  (some of the nuns were from Europe - Notre Dame de Namur) with a focus on world history, the arts, music and theatre and writing - and outgrew Catholicism - by broadening my knowledge and readings to include Middle Eastern, Buddhist, Jewish, Persian and many other writers from around the world.  I used my rich Catholic education as a base or foundation to springboard to a fuller understanding of the world - then rejecting any limits on my search for knowledge.  I am grateful to the nuns for that.

        •  You point out, indirectly, some reasons (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee, Don midwest

          for the decline in support for good education, both public and parochial.  A foundation like that you describe is fine & dandy for the children of the power-broking class, always was, won't likely change soon.  When the children of factory laborers and postmen and nurses and secretaries get the same foundation, as we did during the 1950s, they turn into the rabble, roused: the sixties.  The subsequent destruction of strong, knowledge-based education for all but the very entitled/doggedly insistent has probably been not so much accidental as inevitable, given the present mess.

          But those unpaid nuns just went ahead and taught everyone anyway. And the guys in charge really don't appreciate that.

      •  by "haters of Vatican II,..." (5+ / 0-)

        I mean those within the church who hate the reforms and liberalizations and changes and open-ness of the changes resulting from Vatican II.

  •  WoW! nt (0+ / 0-)

    With such confusions don't it make you wanna scream - MJ

    by Janeo on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:35:08 AM PDT

  •  John Paul I was going to change the world (7+ / 0-)

    the greedy thieves and crooks would have none of that.

    Imagine...

    "It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment." *Ansel Adams* ."Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."*Will Rogers*

    by Statusquomustgo on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:41:29 AM PDT

  •  Never attribute to malice that which incompetence (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, TomP

    is sufficient to explain.

    No crazy conspiracy theories are necessary to explain the calamitous reign of John Paul II; the man was simply a relatively ignorant provincial in way over his head, and ruled the Vatican with the equally incompetent assistance of a small circle of trusted insiders mostly from Poland.

    The rank incompetence of John Paul II at the simplest administrative tasks was the proximate cause permitting the horrific pedophile priest scandal to suppurate for over a decade. And his extremely reactionary view of the Church led to the destruction of 'liberation theology', the firm alliance of the Church with Latin American dictators, the reversal of Vatican II reforms, and the rise of Ratzinger as his successor.

    •  Malice is the proximate cause of the sex abuse (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, SeaTurtle, happymisanthropy

      scandal and it has persisted throughout the history of the Church. (See the book by Doyle, Sipe and Wall) It takes a particular type of malice to aid and abet the sexaul torture of thousands and thousands of children over the centuries.

      Wojtyla's malice lay in his overarching desire for a victory of the Catholic Church over communism in Poland. To that end, he was willing to support death squads in Latin American, other clandestine rightwing terrorism we probably do not yet fully know about and appoint bishops all over the world who would promote the interets of the same people helping and funding the downfall of communism in Eastern Europe.

    •  You can say a lot of things about JPII but (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Don midwest, wu ming, AoT

      incompetence is not one of them. He did not screw up the handling of clerical sex abuse, he acted to protect those that mattered most - the priests. He did not fail to protect anyone he protected those he believed needed protection the hierarchy of the church. After all what is the suffering of a few children compared with the need to protect "The Bride of Christ". It was not incompetence is was intentional.

      He saw the world as Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan saw it - as a place under attack by the Evil One. He saw the child abuse scandal as an attack on Mother Church by Satan and his forces. Just like communism. In his mind these scandals were about destroying the reputation of the church and ultimatly destroying the church itself. Child sex abuse itself is as old as human history. The modern difference is that now we understand that the victims deserve our protection and help and the abusers deserve prison and condemnation.

      The Catholic church also saw the French Revolution as an existential threat and countered it with conservative thinking. They burned critics at the stake. At the turn of the 20th century they published a list of books that one should never read or risk excommunication.

      So do not let Catholicism off easy by claiming that the church made a simple mistake about child sex abuse. It was no mistake. They chose to throw those kids under the bus.

      •  You hit the nail on the head. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Don midwest, a2nite, SeaTurtle, AoT

        The overarching purpose of the popes throughout history has been to maintain and advance the Church's own wealth and power. The deaths, torture, impoverishment, etc. etc. of others is of no concern.

      •  Au, contraire mon frere. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lgcap, Don midwest

        Not letting the Church off the hook at all. Scores of Bishops & Cardinals need to be rotting in jail for for life what they did to shield the rapists of children from justice, and to provide them access to even more victims. For decades. No one is angrier about this atrocity than I am, trust me. I left the Church largely because of it.

        But John Paul II was indeed mind-bogglingly incompetent. He was famously uninterested in the boring but utterly essential nuts & bolts management of the Vatican. Countless decisions large and small went unmade. Or they were negligently made by an ignorant cabal of (mostly Polish) close friends of Woytila who were utterly clueless about how the Vatican and the Church as a whole actually ran. Finances fell apart. Basic functions fell apart. The only thing that was really a priority for him was packing the College of Cardinals and replacing the Episcopate with hundreds of extremely conservative members. Most of whom were not coincidentally utterly incompetent managers themselves.

        •  You see I agree with you that he was a bad pope (0+ / 0-)

          but I tend to think he was more responsible for the problems than you do. I think he damn well knew about the child abuse and acted the way he did intentionally. There is no job manual for the job of pope. Each pope basically defines the job his way. He uses the Curia or the Curia uses him. There was much corruption and he chose to ignore it. He decided it was more important to chase his Marian devotion and leave the day to day business to the Curialists. They run the church anyway. The entire leadership of the church from assistant bishop on up should resign and spend the rest of their sorry lives on their knees begging Gods forgiveness in a monks cell or prison cell. Prayer and contemplation. Let some new people figure out how to save the church.

    •  incompetence or malice (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Don midwest

      I call it the deliberate decision to defend the prerogatives and image of the church, regardless of the harm done to molested children and society as a whole.

      If one believes that the Pope truly is God's agent on earth, then damning an entire generation is preferable to allowing the Church to become "corrupted" by outside ideas.

      Then, of course, there's all the money.

      all morals are relative, but some are more relative than others.

      by happymisanthropy on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:22:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dems concerned about Catholics - elected W Bush (6+ / 0-)

    the journalist and former chief of staff for Clinton wrote an article in 2005 claiming that the catholics were instrumental in the defeat of Kerry and giving W Bush a second term.

    THURSDAY, APR 21, 2005 04:21 PM EDT
    Holy warriors
    Cardinal Ratzinger handed Bush the presidency by tipping the Catholic vote. Can American democracy survive their shared medieval vision?

    BY SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL

    Here is the link
    http://www.salon.com/...

    Cardinal Ratzinger is the current pope.

    *
    Some strange comments on this diary which seem to fit the patterns of trolls

    One of these is claim CT, conspiracy theory.

    There are others who go all out to discredit a diary and the author of the diary.

    When hyper Obama supporters come out of the woodwork, I wonder if they are paid staff members. It could well be that they are supporters of Obama no matter what he does.

    But for this issue, the conservative Catholic Church is a major supporter of Republicans. And they have been instrumental in the 40 year wedge issue of birth control.

    Thus the troll like behavior in this diary is kinda of strange.

    Do they work for the church? Are they supporting the church no matter what? Are they more supportive of the church than Democrats? Are they more supportive of the church than they are of the USA?

    •  Wut? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bleeding blue, Anak, TomP, Tonga 23
      Thus the troll like behavior in this diary is kinda of strange.
      Umm, some well-known and respected Kossacks are asking questions.  The diarist seems fine with that and is representing her POV.  

      Where the heck do you get "trolling".  

      Do they work for the church? Are they supporting the church no matter what? Are they more supportive of the church than Democrats? Are they more supportive of the church than they are of the USA?
      Your assessment is "kinda strange" imho.

      Somebody said Party! I got excited. I love Parties! Especially Parties with exclamation marks! Now I'm sad because there's not a Party! h/t AnnetteK ;-)

      by EdMass on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:22:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the link to Blumenthal's article (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, happymisanthropy, TomP

      Yes, Ratzinger directly intervened in election year 2004 politics. And his arrival in the U.S. in 2008, the beginning of that year's presidential campaign, was no coincidence.

    •  You sound like (0+ / 0-)

      a lot of people who worried about electing JFK in 1960. Allegiance to a foreign power, etc.

      Not Catholic any more, but my guess is that such Catholics were never mainstream and that those who think that way would be very unlikely posters to this website.

  •  The Catholic Church has been a criminal (5+ / 0-)

    organization for over a thousand years.

    Not.Surprised.At.All.

    Vote Democrat! Because drinking piss is better than eating shit...

    by Tirge Caps on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:09:59 AM PDT

  •  Maybe John Paul I was indeed murdered. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonga 23

    However, you present no evidence of it so it's pure speculation. But 'In exchange for the defeat of communism in Poland to be supplanted by the Church's hegemony' is just pure BS. Communism in Poland was defeated for 2 reasons:

    1. Gorbachev
    2. Solidarność

    None of them had much to do with 'plutocrats'. And currently Poland is not exactly run by Catholic Church. Law and Justice is probably the only major party that is explicitly socially conservative and it has only run the country for a relatively short time.

    •  Solidarity was funded by the plutocrats through (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, Don midwest, KenBee

      the Vatican Bank and other Catholic "charities." No, the Catholic Church is not running Poland but that was not what JPII had in mind.

      As to the evidence, the Vatican is an independent and sovereign state totally immune to any and all law enforcement and civil law. Who would possibly have been present in the day(s) following Luciani's death to gather evidence?

    •  Without the Roman Catholic church there is no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FG

      Solidarność. Solidarity was a trade union illegally organized outside of the official communist trade union system. You seem to fail to understand the deep level of Catholic faith in Poland. Over 95% of Poles in a survey taken in the 80s described themselves as deeply observant Roman Catholics. It is an deeply woven integral part of Polish culture. The RC church gave moral authority and financial help to Solidarity. The local priests gave solidarity members permission to be politically active. And ran the risk of persecution. Not all Catholic are conservative and the grip of Catholicism on the Poles maybe wanning. But do not underestimate the influence of the church on solidarity.

      As for Gorbachev, well solidarity was started in the 70s when Breshnev was General Secretary of the Party. And there were a number of leaders between him and Gorby. Remember that martial law was declared in Poland on Christmas 1979. The members of Solidarity suffered much for their activism.

      •  I understand it very well but it has nothing (0+ / 0-)

        to do with some plots by some 'plutocrats'. Legal labor unions in Poland were a joke. Catholic workers organizing independent labor unions is not a plot by mysterious 'outside forces'. Solidarity did start much earlier but it was suppressed until late 80s when Soviet Union weakened its grip enough for it to restart and wrestle power from the army.

  •  JP2 held Lucia Santos, (3+ / 0-)


    the child from the Fatima sightings, incommunicado from the mid-90s until her death in 2005.  

    What was that all about?

    Three be the things I shall never attain: Envy, Content, and sufficient champagne. --Dorothy Parker

    by M Sullivan on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:19:45 AM PDT

  •  I read In God's Name when it first came out (5+ / 0-)

    Fascinating read.

    Not only was Pope JPI going to do something about the bank, he was also liberal minded - considering allowing priests to marry and reconsidering the church's position on birth control. I'm wondering how he ever managed to get elected Pope in the first place with such radical ideas? Or were there cardinals at that time who were open to such things?

    I am progressive. I am liberal. I make no apologies. - Kos

    My political compass: - 8.38,-6.97

    by pucklady on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:28:13 AM PDT

  •  Typical way they Catholic leadership behaves since (5+ / 0-)

    the beginning.

    IMO The Catholic church is one of the most corrupt and evil organizations man has ever devised.

    They raped and pillaged and massacred the Americas until they were stopped in the 1800s.  The silver and gold they stole from the indigenous tribes is  incalculable.  They shipped so much silver from South America to China that it became the basis for Chinese currency.

     Even today the biggest and most substantial building in most South Amerrican towns is the Cathoilic Church.

    And the Borgias and Medicis and their ilk poisoned and killed each other off routinely and famously.  This was typical.

    The present pope himself was a Hitler youth.  He has pushed aside the issue of child molestation and represses the nuns who work for social justice.

    The Catholic Church=WYSIWYG= Disgusting users!

    •  I agree with this sentiment (4+ / 0-)

      and wonder why anyone who has read the full history of this institution and all of its actions in the world, from the destruction of pagan believers and the co-opting of their shrines, gods and art to the raping of children, still walks through its doors, gives their dollars and kneels.

      This diary is just one small addition to the pattern of proven deeds.  The havoc that the Catholic Church in America is causing by its all out assault on women's rights to contraception in its growing take over of our hospitals is just one reason that writers in my mind need to be even more bold in their attacks on this institution.   All we need to have happen here is for enough supporters of the institution to walk out the doors with their dollars (and this includes our tax dollars) until it shrinks into nothingness as a power, not only in America, but world wide.

      Thank you Betty for your boldness.

  •  US Bishops: I know at least two Catholics (10+ / 0-)

    who left the Church because of the Bishops support of the Iraq War and lack of focus on social justice in general.

    They are notoriously right-wing, much more so than the regular informed church-member, but with a major influence on the "just obey" rank-and-file and what the priest's give their sermons about.

    And the Bishop's attitudes, proclamations, what they focus on and what they ignore has electoral consequences.


    The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

    by Jim P on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:35:09 AM PDT

  •  You should remove this diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonga 23

    before you embarrass yourself any further.

    David Yallop is not a "seminal source" for anything. He is a comedy writer, not an historian. His unnamed sources are no more credible than any other source that is unwilling to put his/her name and face with what s/he says. As to Galeazzi, I've never heard of him--or of the paper he writes for. And if you've been paying attention for the last 20 years, you'll know that the Italian media have been known to have a rather elastic relationship with the truth, never more so than in the days of Silvio Berluscone.

  •  What's your reaction to (0+ / 0-)

    John Cornwell's book "A Thief in the Night"? (I haven't read either this or Yallop's book.)

    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

    by AaronInSanDiego on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:52:18 AM PDT

    •  Upset with the reaction to Yallop's book, (5+ / 0-)

      Joaquin Navarro-Valls sought out Cornwell to write another version of these events. While Cornwell states he was free to write whatever he chose, certain officials were made "available" to him and others refused to be interviewed. Navarro-Valls, a physician (psychiatrist) produced medical "evidence" for Cornwell attesting to Luciani's ill health and Cornwell, not surprisingly concluded that Luciani died from natural causes. Others, however, found it strange that 10 years after the fact, Navarro-Valls was able to produce this new evidence never before disclosed.  

      I've read both books. Yallop can rightly be criticized for using so many unattributable sources, but then again, one can understand their need to keep their identities secret. Yallop is an English crime reporter so his book has the ability to hold your interest if you like that genre.

  •  We seem to have forgotten how large... (6+ / 0-)

    ...the scandal was.

    One guy ended hanging from a London bridge;

    On 10 June 1982, Calvi went missing from his Rome apartment, having fled the country on a false passport in the name of Gian Roberto Calvini. He had shaved off his moustache and fled initially to Venice, and from there he apparently hired a private plane to London. At 7:30 AM on Friday 18 June 1982 a postman found his body hanging from scaffolding beneath Blackfriars Bridge on the edge of the financial district of London. Calvi's clothing was stuffed with bricks, and he was carrying around $15,000 worth of cash in three different currencies.
    And the other guy is still a player;
    In 2003, Gelli told La Repubblica that it seemed that the P2 "democratic rebirth plan" was being implemented by Silvio Berlusconi:
    Every morning I speak to my conscience and the dialogue calms me down. I look at the country, read the newspaper, and think: "All is becoming a reality little by little, piece by piece. To be truthful, I should have had the copyright to it. Justice, TV, public order. I wrote about this thirty years ago... Berlusconi is an extraordinary man, a man of action. This is what Italy needs: not a man of words, but a man of action.
    In December 2007 Licio Gelli signed a life rights agreement with New York based producer Gabor Harrach. The movie (working title 'Conspirator') is in development.
    I am happier every year since I broke with the Catholic church 40 years ago.  Certainly some people in it are wonderful,  but at the top they are rotten.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:33:22 AM PDT

  •  Lucia was in a contemplative order (0+ / 0-)

    she had no outside contact for all of her adult life except for one or two occasions. I remember my mother telling me of the "secret" revelation of Fatima and how it might tell of the end of the world. Boy was I disappointed when the real revelation was announced.

  •  Sounds like a job for (0+ / 0-)

    Monsignore Castell (he flies an awesome Diamond in Vatican livery too sometimes):
     Ihr Auftrag, Pater Castell

    Ihr Auftrag, Pater Castell (2008)

    "Double, double, toile and trouble; Fire burne, and Cauldron bubble... By the pricking of my Thumbes, Something wicked this way comes": Republicans Willkommen auf das Vierte Reich! Sie Angelegenheit nicht mehr.

    by Bluefin on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:12:28 PM PDT

  •  Isn't JP2's opposition to Father Romero enough? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, Only Needs a Beat

    JP2's opposition to the Liberation Theology movement in favor of violent fascism in Central America is enough reason to find him absolutely odious. Add the endless stonewalling of the significant abuse problems of the Church, why bother with this fact-free borderline CT diary? No one gets to be Pope, not these days anyways, by being a naive fool.

    "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

    by shmuelman on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:21:02 PM PDT

  •  Great diary, Thanks. (4+ / 0-)

    No wonder i can't stand the church of my childhood. what a bunch.

    Obama wants your guns = Romney wants your Medicare Stop choosing your guns over your health You're shooting yourself

    by blueoregon on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:25:43 PM PDT

  •  Why am I not surprised... (3+ / 0-)

    It's like the book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, where the author talks of how the world's money men go to countries to get what they want. they tell whoever is head of state that they can "play ball" and become very wealthy, or not and wind up deposed or dead.
    There is a cabal of wealthy who really run things in this world. The only way to stop them is strict regulations and laws. Unfortunately, the right doesn't believe in law or regulation - unless it's about the little people who get in the way of their fortune building.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:47:01 PM PDT

  •  pure CT, and nothing new (0+ / 0-)

    these claims have been around since the day JP I died.

    There never has been serious proof. For all we know it is just conjecture and vanilla consipracy theory.

    Yallop is notorious for this stuff and made quite a living from the folks buying his stuff. He wrote 2 best selling books on the topic without ever offering any serious proof.

    If this wasn't on the Catholic Church, this diary and its author would be banned as ct monger.  On Catholics, that level par for the course.

  •  Where's his Birth Certificate? (0+ / 0-)

    Obama is a Muslim, He wasn't born in the U.S., and John Paul I was murdered.

    What do these 3 things have in common?  They all have absolutely 0 evidence to support them.  On the same rec list that a story about how thousands of scientists have spent 10's of thousands of hours using reason and extremely complex machinery to find a piece of evidence to explain the fundamental principles of our universe, we have a diary that uses NO evidence to explain a complex conspiracy worthy of any Hollywood Movie.

    Now I know that DailyKos isn't a scientific journal, nor is it the New York times.  But I enjoy laughing at the Tea Party and their foolish conspiracy theories about Obama's religion and his place of birth and all the stuff that Romney makes up out of thin air, but how can we continue to do that, when we are going to come up with our own conspiracies?

    It only fuels the false equivalency meme that so many journalists have that the left has it's own version of the right wing nutters.
     

  •  CT (0+ / 0-)

    I gave this diary the time of day right up until the part about, "in exchange for the defeat of communism in Poland to be supplanted by the Church's hegemony".

    Even with the somewhat mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of John Paul I, this is a bridge too far.

    Delete this diary please.

  •  great diary, thanks (6+ / 0-)

    except for a couple of fools the comments were also informative. I hope you'll continue to write on this subject. The catholic church is becoming more and more a danger to democracy as they become closer and closer to the fundies and other far right groups. The fact that five out of nine SCOTUS justices are catholics is alarming as we learn more about the church.

    America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

    by cacamp on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 10:18:16 PM PDT

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