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[Bumped. — Kaili]


A gunman opened fire in a crowded movie theater in the Denver suburbs early Friday morning, killing at least 12 people and wounding 50 others, the local police and federal officials said.

The shooting erupted during midnight showings of “The Dark Knight Rises” at the multiplex in Aurora, Colo., where throngs had gathered, some dressed as characters from the highly anticipated Batman sequel.

A federal law enforcement official said that a suspect in the shootings, a man born in 1987, was in custody. The police and federal agents were searching an apartment.

And President Obama, who will deliver comments shortly after 11:00 AM ET, released this statement:
Michelle and I are shocked and saddened by the horrific and tragic shooting in Colorado. Federal and local law enforcement are still responding, and my Administration will do everything that we can to support the people of Aurora in this extraordinarily difficult time. We are committed to bringing whoever was responsible to justice, ensuring the safety of our people, and caring for those who have been wounded. As we do when confronted by moments of darkness and challenge, we must now come together as one American family. All of us must have the people of Aurora in our thoughts and prayers as they confront the loss of family, friends, and neighbors, and we must stand together with them in the challenging hours and days to come.
6:25 AM PT:
Pres Obama to cancel Orlando stop

@peterbakernyt via Twitter for iPhone

6:26 AM PT: To be clear, the Orlando stop mentioned above was a campaign rally. Obama will still address the shooting later this morning.

6:28 AM PT: And a statement just released by the campaign:

President Obama will address the tragedy in Aurora, Colorado in remarks in Ft. Myers, Florida this morning. Then he will return to the White House. In light of the tragedy in Colorado, the event in Winter Park, Florida will be cancelled.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Words from shooter Mother (38+ / 0-)
    A San Diego woman who identified herself as James Holmes' mother told ABC News she had awoken unaware of the shooting and had not yet been contacted by authorities. She immediately expressed concern that her son may have been involved.

    "You have the right person," she said, apparently speaking on gut instinct. "I need to call the police... I need to fly out to Colorado."

    Sounds as though it wasn't a surprise........

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:24:10 AM PDT

  •  Shooter's Mother: "You've got the right person" (8+ / 0-)
  •  Kind of numb from the news...another senseless (21+ / 0-)

    Shooting. The hate rhetoric has got to stop...

    Time to step away from the news...almost impossible to continue to comprehend these senseless acts.

    Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

    by SallyCat on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:27:12 AM PDT

  •  there are no words to make this situation better. (17+ / 0-)

    but the hate that is running under the current in this country has to end. this is no way to live.

    my thoughts are with the families ho lost loved ones, those wounded, and those who are psychologically scared from this event.

    Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

    by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:27:37 AM PDT

    •  What would make this better (14+ / 0-)

      Is to round up and melt down every gun in this country.
      How many more innocent people have to be senselessly slaughtered?

      --- Keep Christian mythology out of science class!

      by cybersaur on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:46:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that would be a very good start. (5+ / 0-)

        If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

        by livjack on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:59:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If criminal elements don't have guns, they'll use (5+ / 0-)

        knives, IED's, etc.  

        You don't stop crazies.  They will always figure out a way to hurt others.

        From my perspective, I'll keep my firearms for defense of my family, thankyouverymuch.

        4π^3 + π^2 + π

        by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:03:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  at some point, you are going to have to square (21+ / 0-)

          your gun rights with the rights of others to be able to go to a theater to watch a movie without having to worry about getting shot. Or go to the grocery shopping or go to school.

          I understand the importance of the second amendment to an extent. What i don't understand is all this extraneous addition of multiple shot rifles, multiple shot cartridges, hand guns, conceal and carry etc.

          Normally, i don't say anything at all about the second amendment. I usually don't have an opinion on it either way. But I getting sick of living like this. Other countries don't live with this many multiple shootings. This is not right. You can't ask me to live like this so you can have a gun. That's just not right. You want a gun, fine, YOU better come up with a way to make sure shit like this stops happening. And if that means more restrictive guns laws, so be it. But I'm sick of it. And damnit, you should be too!

          Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

          by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:17:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Other countries do have these problems. (7+ / 0-)

            American News focuses primarily on domestic murders.  But it happens around the world.

            And don't forget the 50,000 Mexicans that have been killed due to Mexico/American drug trade.

            They don't get a lot of press because they aren't in the USA and Americans sure don't change their drug habits because of the deaths.

            4π^3 + π^2 + π

            by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:26:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Where are the Mexicans cartels getting the guns? (6+ / 0-)

              From the USA, because of our easy gun laws.  The "Fast and Furious" was an attempt to provide prosecutors with enough evidence to convict straw purchasers and move up the chain.

              Rmoney & The Republicans - We've should've killed GM, not bin Laden.

              by filby on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:42:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  so we should be proud that we're not as bad (4+ / 0-)

              as Mexico. That is your defense? Really?

              Come up with the solutions and I will back your right to have those firearms to defend your family. I will. But if your answer is "it's my right" and you don't think you have any other responsibility than that, then you should take a good hard look at what your right is doing to other people's right, to live.

              I don't have a gun, don't want one. And I will stress this again, never felt the need to say anything one way or the other about them. But at some point, second amendment supporters have to come up with solutions to prevent these crimes from occurring. You want the responsibility of gun ownership, then you have the responsibility of protecting not just your family from crime but others as well. It is up to you as gun owners to do something about this. I look to you.

              Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

              by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:54:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My point is that "your" casual use of marijuana (5+ / 0-)

                can also be the cause of deaths below the border.  

                I'm a gunsmith and I work with law enforcement (primarily SWAT teams) and competitive shooters.  In all my years of doing this, I have never had one of those guns used to shoot up innocent civilians.

                I have had people that I've worked with shot by crazy people.

                So, the conclusion I draw, arguably based solely on the limited experience I have, is that crazy people should not have guns.

                The responsibility we all have is to identify those mentally ill individuals who represent a threat and get them help.

                4π^3 + π^2 + π

                by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:06:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah, I smoked weed, years ago. And yeah, i do (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  feel very guilty about the fact that it has caused many deaths not only in Mexico but in South America too. Ya know what I did? I stopped smoking weed! I took responsibility for it and did what i could to make a difference. And don't think for a moment that I wouldn't LOVE to start smoking again cuz I would.

                  I applaud your work. Again, you seem to think I have a problem with you owning guns. I don't. The problem I have is that (and don't I know this to be true about you personally) you will not recognize that you have a responsibility to come up with solutions to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people and criminals. Why do I have to be subject to the whims of a lunatic just so you can hide a gun under your pillow? If you want to own that gun, as a responsible gun owner, you SHOULD WANT to make sure that guns stay in the hands of other responsible gun owners and NOT in the hands of mentally ill people and criminals. That is what I would like to see. Come up with solutions to this problem. I am begging you. Because it is very hard to keep seeing these stories and not determine that gun owners simply don't give a crap...

                  Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

                  by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:20:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, I don't sleep with a gun under my pillow (5+ / 0-)

                    All of my firearms (which aren't very many) are locked in a safe and stay there until I go to a competition event.

                    I don't carry a weapon with me on a daily basis.  I don't live in fear.  We have bad neighborhoods here and I stay out of them.

                    4π^3 + π^2 + π

                    by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:32:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  let me know when you come up with some (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cybersaur, mcd12

                      solutions. I will help you in any way I can. But until you can convince me that I should not hold second amendment lovers feet to the fire in regards to gun restrictions, I'm going to start being more vocal about it.

                      I'm tired of living like this. And really, you should be too. I'm disappointed you don't see that.

                      In the meantime, sorry about the pillow comment. That was not necessary. By talking with you, I knew before I wrote it that you were probably one of many who actually lock up their weapons. That was a low blow on my part.

                      Again, let me know if you need help in lobbying. I'm not afraid to make phone calls and write letters!

                      Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

                      by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:45:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm definitely in support of a number of restric- (5+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        yawnimawke, fuzzyguy, SuWho, llywrch, mcd12

                        tions.  For example:

                        FBI background checks at all gun show sales. Required use by all states of the FBI NICS system.  Limitation on extended magazines on pistols. Elimination of civilian sale of armor-piercing ammunition.

                        There are many things we can do and I don't agree with the NRA on many many issues.

                        Don't worry about the "pillow" comment.  I don't take it personally.  I know how emotional these murders become.

                        I don't have any solutions other than I recognize my responsibility as a "gatekeeper".  It is my job to make sure that I keep gun out of the hands of crazies that I interact with.  

                        If all FFL's felt the same way, we might keep a few more crazies from shooting innocent people.  But, it is impossible to eliminate the random acts of violence that will continue to occur.

                        This man appears to have plotted this rampage, including booby traps in his apartment.  Truly a disturbed individual.

                        4π^3 + π^2 + π

                        by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:54:46 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i'm thrilled to know this. and I'm glad we had a (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Boris49, fuzzyguy, mcd12

                          healthy conversation about it. My emotions are very high right now and I want something done about these events. It bothers me that more gun owners aren't as responsible as you are. If they were, they would be a more powerful force in the NRA and among each other. And I honestly want to help. Because I'm not a gun owner, I know I will get a whole lot of blowback though. And this is why I have not had a real position one or the other. I have been hoping that responsible gun owners would be able to overcome their brethren and get something done.

                          Again, anything you need me to do to help, I will do. Keep me posted or send me links that I can bookmark or join to help you and others like you try get things moving. We have for too long let too many people fall through the cracks in our mental health system as well as let gun restrictions become dirty words. Something has to give and right now it's bending towards chaos.

                          Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

                          by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:13:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Let's see. Do you use a cell phone? Your wife (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  happy camper, kyril

                  have that diamond ring?  YOU are the cause of child soldiers in the world.

            •  *gentle cough* (10+ / 0-)

              Go north far enough and you will cross an invisible line that magically reduces your chances of being shot dead by a factor of between three and four. Or at least by your reasoning it must be magic, since you won't admit that much tighter gun control, especially on military-style weapons and handguns has anything to do with it.

              "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

              by sagesource on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:56:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, MAGIC! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, KVoimakas

                Access to health care, mental health care, education, and less blatant income inequality. I'm sure none of those "magical" things have anything to do with lower rates of crime, violence, stress, mental illness and needless death in that magical land. It must clearly be just the gun laws that really aren't nearly as restrictive as many users here think.

                Addressing inadequate enforcement of current laws would do more than making more laws that won't be adequately enforced.

                •  Excuses, excuses. (0+ / 0-)

                  Amazing how far some will go to defend their fetishes.

                  "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

                  by sagesource on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:05:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't own any guns. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I'd rather see actual progressive reform in this country rather than worse than useless hoplophobic pseudo-pacifist legislation that won't actually address the core reasons why America suffers such ridiculous and completely preventable citizen tragedies and high crime rates.

                    Amazing how far some will go to defend their fetishes
            •  Mexicans don't go killing people "senselessly" (0+ / 0-)

              as we do here. They are fighting their naco wars...that's different.
              -what would you say is the reason for the Gabby shooting, and now Aurora?
              -Mexicans are fighting drug wars...

              "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935 --Talk of foresight--

              by tuma on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:58:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Knives (15+ / 0-)

          How much damage would have been done in the Colorado theatre with knives?  The availability of so many powerful, lethal weapons is a big problem.  I'm sure that there were lots of people in the theatre who keep firearms for the defense of their families, but it didn't matter much.

          It's time to face up to the reality that gun control is essential.  We cannot say that "but for the NRA this tragedy would not have happened".  But I'm through with tip toeing on eggshells on this issue.  It's time for some serious gun control.

        •  A knife would not have killed a dozen (7+ / 0-)

          Using an AK47 does.  These automatic rifles need to be outlawed now.  

          Also, even if you are a gun toter who was in the theater, how can you possibly defend yourself from someone with an AK-47, grenades, shotgun, etc ?

          He may be another right wing extremist instead of a "crazy" as you described?  There is nothing to stop them.  We hear it on our radios, see it on television, it is the norm these days.  

          Look at the Unitarian Church murderer in Knoxville.   He openly ranted about liberals, gays, blacks.  He read Michael Savage and other haters, then one day when in and shot the place up during a children's play.  Remember that?  He's sitting in prison with very little play on why he killed these innocent people.   Michael Savage is still spewing the hate.  He could care less about the blood on his hands.

          •  First of AK-47 is not likely to be "An (7+ / 0-)

            Automatic Weapon".  The versions sold in the states are semi-automatic only.  These are not military assault weapons.

            I'm not defending the suspect, but in a time when facts are few and speculation runs rampant, it's important that we don't add to the reporting errors.

            As to a knife...probably not a mass murder weapon.  Bombs are.  And anyone with access to the internet can get all the information needed to construct such weapons.

            We are talking about devices.  What really needs to be understood is why a person feels that his problems can be solved by hurting others.

            Mental illness treatment in this country is seriously underfunded.  Let's help the mentally ill and thereby make our country safer.

            4π^3 + π^2 + π

            by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:33:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree regarding the mentally ill in this country (0+ / 0-)

              and the need to lobby for more funding. Can you lobby the NRA and those other responsible gun owners to help do this? Because I will be more than happy to help you.

              Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

              by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:30:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  To be fair, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sandy on Signal, llywrch

              an AK is one of the easiest weapons to convert to automatic fire. It would take about 15 minutes to turn up the necessary trigger mechanism on Google, and another 5 minutes to find the instructions for converting it (very simple process, although you do have to DIY it, so it's a bit of a gamble).

              We don't know that he had an AK though. It's much more likely that he had an AR-15/knockoff, which could be converted to 3-round burst pretty trivially but I don't believe they can go full-auto. At least not easily.

              "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

              by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:59:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Despite the availability of the teenage mutant (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                KVoimakas, fuzzyguy

                zombie literature on the internet, to do a safe conversion is not all that simple.  And it is absolutely illegal.  Even owning some of the conversion parts not installed in the firearm can result in a lengthy prison sentence.

                A skilled trained shooter is just as dangerous with a semi-automatic weapon as a full auto weapon.  Probably more so.

                4π^3 + π^2 + π

                by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:19:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Didn't say it was safe (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Boris49, Sandy on Signal

                  and yes, obviously it's illegal. But then, so is driving your bomb-filled car from your booby-trapped apartment full of bombs to a movie theater full of innocent people, breaking in the emergency exit, and shooting 50 people. Also, by the way, not an especially "safe" thing to do.

                  And yes, I know:

                  A skilled trained shooter is just as dangerous with a semi-automatic weapon as a full auto weapon.  Probably more so.
                  Full auto weapons have a lot of disadvantages. Accuracy is pretty much impossible, not that accuracy is the AK's strong point to start with. They waste a ton of ammo. They're mostly good for indiscriminately spraying bullets around to scare people (in military applications, mostly just good for cover fire).

                  I wasn't even remotely suggesting that it's a good idea to convert your AK to full auto. It's illegal and stupid. Just pointing out that it's far from impossible. Cheaper, safer, and less likely to draw police attention than a number of other illegal, stupid things that people nevertheless do, like cooking meth in your kitchen.

                  "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                  by kyril on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:05:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  "Michael Savage is still spewing the hate. " (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            Word do kill. Remember the violence spurred by hate radio in Rwanda?
            Guys like Micheal Savage are cultural toxic waste polluting minds.  It is insidious.

        •  Can you please cite... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mightymouse, Sandy on Signal, filby

          even one country that does not allow its citizens to own guns where mass murder is committed with knives?

          Fox News, The triumph of stupidity over reason.

          by laughingriver on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:28:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are so right (0+ / 0-)

          If this guy ran into the theater with a snow shovel, it would have been even worse.

          And why don't you protect your family with IEDs? You make such a compelling argument.

          klaatu barada nikto

          by JohnGor0 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:19:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  what would be better... (6+ / 0-)

        is not to drag divisive issues into this thread.

        •  what???? This is about a mass shooting. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mightymouse, filby, splintersawry, Matt Z

          Guns and easy access to them are the  reason for it.  Why can't it be discussed?  

        •  you're right but at some point, soon, we as a (6+ / 0-)

          society need to decide if these events are something we are willing to live with. If so, then some of us are just going to have to stay home because people who have guns won't do anything to protect us against those who shouldn't have them. Gun restrictions are a fucking joke in this country. And if people want to have them, then they better start doing something about the people who run around pulling crap like this. Cuz I'm fucking sick of it.

          I'm done holding my tongue. I have watched this country do nothing while kids get killed in school, people get killed in church, people get killed going to the grocery store. And no one, no one does anything about it. I don't have a problem with the second amendment. I have a problem with people who throw the second amendment around and have no solutions to prevent these kind of crimes from occurring. You want your guns, fine. But come up with a solution to prevent crazy people from getting them, PLEASE!  And stop hiding behind the second amendment when things like this occur. The Second Amendment does not cover shit like this. Come up with solutions. You want the have them, you better take the responsibility for them (all of them and the people who get their hands on them).

          Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

          by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:38:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you own a car? (5+ / 1-)

            Do you feel it is your personal responsibility to "do something" when someone kills another person with a car, either accidentally or purposely? What about backyard pools, which kill more people annually than guns? Is every pool owner liable for the guy who fails to put up a fence and his neighbor's kid drowns?

            I know what you're saying, but you are placing responsibility on the wrong people.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:42:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who would be the right people? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              yawnimawke, happy camper

              . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

              by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:02:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The guy holding the gun (5+ / 0-)

                for starters...

                I also have a problem with states that do not make full use of the NICS database, by failing to report prohibited possessors in a timely fashion. Politicians who balk at providing meaningful access to mental health treatment, and insurance companies who do the same are also not helping matters either.

                Blaming recreational shooters and hunters for the acts of a madman is not going to help.

                "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:14:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Manson never touched a gun or a knife. (0+ / 0-)

                  There are super stars that prey on the mentally ill to kill.  

                  There are 2nd Amendment people who would freak if brown people were armed.  Can you imagine if freedom marches had been open carry as the tea party was in the health care debacle.

                  This is a big mess with many agendas.

                  . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

                  by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:33:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Interestingly, Colorado does not use NICS. n/t (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  happy camper, fuzzyguy, KVoimakas

                  4π^3 + π^2 + π

                  by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:45:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  But you do have to accept that the very lobby (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  llywrch, happy camper, yawnimawke

                  for unfettered access to guns is also the lobby that encourages reduced funding for mental health, hates the ACA and encourages hate talk. Or maybe it's actually the other way around. The hate talkers, mental health defunders, etc. USE the NRA to get what they want by terrorizing them with the thought that "liberals" want to pry their guns from their stone cold fingers. If its true that the problem isn't gun ownership but rather failure to id or treat mental health issues, or lack of medical care, or education, or expansion of NCIC or rules about gun shows the WHY does the NRA always come down against those issues?  It sort of makes the argument that gun owners are responsible and the problem is just our society a little unpersuasive. The NRA does everything it can to keep things, and not just gun things, just the way they are. If they want support for gun possession (and I own and use several types of guns) they need to be screaming for more public funding of mental health providers. No encouraging their members to vote for tea partners who want to strip alway all government funding of anything.

                  “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                  by stellaluna on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:43:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  First (5+ / 0-)

                    I have no use for the NRA and their right wing fearmongering. However, they do not lobby for unfettered access to weapons. They were instrumental in writing and passing the bill that established the NICS database system.

                    Gun shows do not operate under special rules. Licensed firearm dealers are required to run checks on all purchasers whether it's in their store or at a show. Private sellers are not required to run checks, whether they sell a gun to their neighbor, through a classified ad, or at a show. There is no loophole.

                    I would like to see the NICS system opened for use in private sales, but the logistics are daunting.

                    Nobody supports letting felons and the mentally ill have guns, even the NRA.

                    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                    by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:57:53 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  By defunding mental health providers all over (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      happy camper

                      the country we do exactly that. And the NRA supports candidates who advocate for reduced federal funding all the time. Just because they don't put it in their talking points doesn't mean they don't accomplish the same thing by their single issue support of candidates.

                      “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                      by stellaluna on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:06:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The NRA (5+ / 0-)

                        supports candidates who support gun rights. Unfortunately that usually means Republicans. Like I said, I disagree with them on just about everything.

                        "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                        by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:09:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I do understand. And I understand that I am (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          happy camper, fuzzyguy, yawnimawke

                          preaching to the choir by posting on a progressive site about gun ownership. Of course the gun owners here are responsible. As I said, I own guns. For protection and I hunt. But I also recognize that the politization of gun ownership is causing a problem in the country. Really we responsible gun owners need to stand up to the NRA and let politicians know the NRA doesn't represent responsible gun owners. That's why I support groups like RKBA. Because they are the solution to this problem.  (at least the ones that don't have a knee jerk reaction to discussions of how to keep guns but still keep the world safe for people who don't want to have one)

                          “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                          by stellaluna on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:16:41 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, I own a car and there are restictions (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              polecat, splintersawry, Matt Z

              (ie driving laws) by which I have to follow to keep driving that car. Much more restrictive than guns i might add. Additionally, I have insurance on that car to make sure if I do accidentally kill some one or hurt someone, i'm protected and they are protected. What is your point? That car ownership has more restrictions than gun laws, I guess?

              And yeah, pool owners are liable if someone accidentally falls into their pool and drowns. That's why they have insurance covering their pools too. AFWIW, my parents have a pool. They started making people sign waivers to use it because they didn't want to get sued if someone was injured or harmed because theres no lifeguard on duty.  

              I think that if people want to have guns and they want to use the second amendment as the reason for having these guns, then THEY are the ones that have to come up with solutions to make sure guns stay out of the wrong peoples hands. I have no problem with the second amendment. I have a problem with people not taking responsibility for how that amendment effects all of us. And if they want to support that amendment part of that support should be active problem solving to keep crimes like this from occurring. I would totally get behind them if they would do even that much.

              Earth: Mostly harmless ~ The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (revised entry)

              by yawnimawke on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:05:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, it is in fact my responsibility (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              polecat, splintersawry, Matt Z

              Do you feel it is your personal responsibility to "do something" when someone kills another person with a car, either accidentally or purposely?

              Yes I do, and most automobile owners do as well.

              Responsible automobile owner organizations have long taken a stand in favor of regulations that support safer use of motor vehicles - regulation of their use, revoking driver licenses in case of unsafe mis-use, enhanced safety features, and so on.  Auto Clubs (of which I am a member) have a long record of supporting safe auto use, including regulation of these inherently dangerous machines.

              Firearm organizations (NRA I mean you) on the other hand block any equivalent regulation, screaming "OMG the commies are taking away your guns" every time even the most reasonable measure are proposed (including measures with the strong support of law enforcement).

              The next time I see someone walking around carrying a firearm stopped by the police and required to take a blood alcohol test (as frequently happens to drivers),  I will believe there is some equivalence.

            •  Wrong. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              splintersawry, averybird

              Where do you get your info?  2nd totally incorrect statistics posted in this diar by you today.

              There are an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings in the US every year.

              There are 12,632 deaths caused by gunshot in the US (NOT counting suicides.) Data is from 2007.



          •  That is correct thinking yawnimawke. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            This is the mentality that needs to be promoted as a cultural value.  We can change the way our society thinks about guns and violence.  

      •  Then, only organized criminals and fanatics (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, happy camper

        would be armed as only the decent law abiding citizens would allow heir guns to be "rounded up".  Given our culture's glorification of guns and violence, this would spark a Civil War.
        This is a terrible idea and I hate guns.

        "Is to round up and melt down every gun in this country."

    •  It's not just hate, it's mental illness + (8+ / 0-)

      easy access to weapons.

      As usual.

      •  Yes, mental illness. But, why does it take this (0+ / 0-)

        sort of violent and outwardly direction of destruction?  It is peddled for base thrills constantly for entertainment in our culture is why.
        Being sick is not an excuse for being an asshole.

    •  We are all scared from this event. Have you ever (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yawnimawke, Matt Z

      been in an emergency evacuation in a theater?  I have.  I haven't been in a theater since.  But that's just me.

      . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

      by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:58:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hate or Pleasure? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yawnimawke, Matt Z

      " the hate that is running under the current in this country has to end. this is no way to live."
      This is an evil base part of ourselves that our culture is becoming less and less able to stifle.  Materialism as the highest value and short term gratification is laying down neural pathways in our children's brains.

  •  So, is it this Jim Holmes? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal, qofdisks

    Due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

    by cyeko on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:29:47 AM PDT

  •  Mental health or Right wing paranoia, or both. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein, Subterranean

    1987...makes him around 25.  Schizo usually emerges in the late teens or early 20s.

    "The attack on the truth by war begins long before war starts and continues long after a war ends." -Julian Assange

    by Pierro Sraffa on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:30:21 AM PDT

    •  Most schizophrenics are NOT violent. Transitional (25+ / 0-)

      Age Youth, ages 16-25, that show signs of mental illness are confused and depressed. Rarely is it angry and violent.

      Just a caution about stereotyping a mental illness.

      Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

      by SallyCat on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:34:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People with severe mental illness are ripe for (0+ / 0-)

        those among us who would incite them.  How are we ever going to get the 'Mansons' of radio that send the hapless mentally ill to do their dirty work.

        . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

        by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:15:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No they are not.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy, ebohlman
          Are people with mental illness more violent than the rest of the population?

          If you only listen to the media, you are sure to answer, “Yes”.

          However, most of us know that the media is not the most reliable source of information. In fact, the media has a tendency to bend the facts, plucking out stories and statistics that colour the truth in order to popularize their medium.

          So, what is the truth?

          The Facts
          Research into this question reveals a number of important facts that we want to share with you.

          #1. Mental illness and violence
          As a group, people with mental health issues are not more violent than any other group in our society. The majority of crimes are not committed by people with psychiatric illness, and multiple studies have proven that there is very little relationship between most of these diseases and violence. The real issue is the fact that people with mental illness are two and a half to four times more likely to be the victims of violence than any other group in our society.

          From the Canadian Mental Health site Since folks here are skeptical of US research.

          Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

          by SallyCat on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:51:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No they are not more violent, but they are less (0+ / 0-)

            able to discern reality.  When someone they respect hops them up on hate and violence, they have less capacity to stop.  

            Yes, they are victims of violence.  Victims of those who would send them on a path of destruction and sit back in their sound proof booth safe and secure, wrapped in the first amendment.

            Lets say that I came up behind you and pinched you and made you think it was someone else.  Lets say that you then pummeled the person I made you think was responsible.  Lets say you then got in over your head and realized too late that the person you were pummeling was going to hurt you back, very badly, for the rest of your life.   Pinching people is not a crime.  All I did was pinch you.  And I was long gone by the time all the real interesting stuff was going down.

            . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

            by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:04:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are lots of people unable to discern reality (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy, native

              and it has little to do with mental illness.  I work for an agency that provides independent living assistance to people with mental illness.  We've been talking about this a lot this morning.

              Primary reaction to anger and hate speech by people with mental illness:  depression and self-isolation.
               Mental illness sends people inside themselves and avoiding the rest of the world.  There paranoia is almost always manifest by avoiding the world not confronting it.

              The person in your example has an anger disorder - personality issue that is perpetuated by not being dealt with by society or family.

              What is an anger disorder? Anger disorders describe pathologically aggressive, violent or self-destructive behaviors symptomatic of and driven by an underlying and chronically repressed anger or rage. Anger disorders result primarily from the long-term mismanagement of anger, a process in which normal, existential anger grows insidiously over time into resentment, bitterness, hatred and destructive rage. Anger disorders may also be caused or exacerbated by neurological impairment and substance abuse, both of which can inhibit one's ability to resist aggressive, angry or violent impulses.

              But, for the most part, anger disorders cannot be blamed on bad neurology, genes or biochemistry. They arise from a failure to recognize and consciously address anger as it arises, before it becomes pathological and dangerous, starting in childhood. Who is to blame for this failure? We are. To the extent our society condemns and denigrates the affect of anger as negative, worthless or evil, ignoring and denying its positive potentialities, we are partly responsible for the subsequent carnage. To the extent mental health professionals continue to avoid confronting anger head on in our patients, choosing instead to try to drug, behaviorally modify or cognitively rationalize anger away, we clinicians too are compounding the problem.

              Source: Psychology Today

              Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841

              by SallyCat on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:17:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And the person in my example would not be (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                likely to do anything beyond some unimaginative raunchy behavior.  

                It takes someone whispering in their ear to elevate the behavior to a headline.  Manson's followers were aggressive, violent, and self-destructive, they never would have considered killing Sharon Tate on their own.  They would have done stupid aggressive, violent and self-destructive things.  But in their diminished capacity and propensity for aggressive, violent, and self-destructive behavior were manipulated into doing it.  Oh they were aggressive, violent and self-destructive but they were sent to be aggressive, violent and self-destructive at a certain address.

                I think our theater suicide killer was sent to stamp out the Bane movie.  

                . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

                by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:53:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Limbaugh (15+ / 0-)

    The murder of 15 people at the Cinema 16 in Aurora, Colorado. These peoples only crime, to watch a Batman movie the Rush Limbaugh had disparaged as an anti-Romny conspiracy.

    Limbaugh should be held accountable for this heinous act.


  •  A crime, not a tragedy. (15+ / 0-)

    This is a terrible thing that happened last night in Aurora. It's not tragic, it's terrible.

    Tragic would be if there was a fire, or if a tornado hit the building. This was a human being who walked into a crowded theater and opened fire with what appear to be gas grenades and guns.

    I'm hoping against hope that my friends out there are ok, but don't call this a tragedy, it's a crime.

  •  My heart goes out to everyone affected. (4+ / 0-)

    There are no words for such a horrendous situation.  A person who commits such a colossal crime as this one has not only lost himself; he just lost his connection with the rest of the human race. The man who perpetrated this crime is a monster.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:31:49 AM PDT

    •  yet (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      U.S. drone strikes have killed as many as 2,800 civilians in northwestern Pakistan over the past seven years, according to Shahzad Akbar, Pakistani attorney and director of the Foundation for Fundamental Rights -- an organization that has investigated the U.S. drone operations in Pakistan.

      and yet we allow our leaders to do it in our name, with our money all the time.

      Bad is never good until worse happens

      by dark daze on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:39:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Incredible. (13+ / 0-)

    I just don't understand. These poor people just wanted to watch a fucking movie, and then someone reduces healthy, breathing people to a sudden headline. The synapses are misfiring in these violent people. I just don't know what to say. We constantly observe higher and higher thresholds of hatred and instigations of violence on talk radio, nationalistic fervor trumps reasoning, or we don't care for the mentally ill and ensure that they don't harm themselves or others. What a sad, sad day for this country.

    "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~Edward Abbey ////\\\\ "To be a poor man is hard, but to be a poor race in a land of dollars is the very bottom of hardships." ~W.E.B. DuBois

    by rovertheoctopus on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:36:39 AM PDT

    •  There is no making sense of the senseless. (4+ / 0-)

      We all look for explanations to sort out our emotions.  But, sometimes, bewilderment is the best we can do.

      I don't have any idea why this young man did what he did. What I'm thankful for is that none of my family and friends in the area were hurt in this episode.

      My thoughts go out to all those in Colorado affected by this insanity.

      4π^3 + π^2 + π

      by Boris49 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:13:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  NBC (5+ / 0-)

    via KUSA Livestream just reported that there was 'an AK47 type' of gun used.

  •  First the terrible fires, now this. Be well, CO. (14+ / 0-)

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:40:10 AM PDT

  •  20 miles southwest, Columbine H.S. Massacre 1999 (5+ / 0-)

    80 % of success is showing up

    Corporate is not the solution to our problem

    Corporate is the problem

    by Churchill on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:42:15 AM PDT

  •  Warners has canceled the premier event in Paris (7+ / 0-)

    that was scheduled for tonight ...
    'Dark Knight Rises' Paris premiere scrapped following U.S. shootings

    Plans for "The Dark Knight Rises" have fallen through in France with Warner Bros. cancelling the film’s red carpet premiere in Paris on Friday night in addition to media interviews with director Christopher Nolan and cast members.
    •  What disgusts me is the money being MADE off this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z

      ...even if screenings are being canceled, and people aren't showing up. But that's what shorting stocks is for, right?

      The Dark Knight Rises to break the all-time opening weekend box-office record

      Last prediction was: $2.00 / share
      Today's Change:   -$1.33 (-39.9%)

      (And that's just one of several different contracts available.)

      Now, I don't have a problem with prediction markets in general. But it's just a bit disgusting knowing that were probably a bunch of people rushing to go short The Dark Knight Rises as soon as news of the shooting hit.

      Obviously this is the case with any market...CEO dies, scandals breaks out, whatever, and everyone will be checking their holdings. But prediction markets for smaller one-off events like this just make it seem more....wrong, when something horrific like this happens.

  •  You know. (15+ / 0-)

    We seem to have a big problem with mentally ill people shooting lots of people in this country.

    •  Mental health services (14+ / 0-)

      are often unavailable or inadequate, even for those with coverage. Many people have no access at all.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:53:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is concerning (16+ / 0-)

      is how often those close to the shooters KNOW something bad is going to happen.  They KNOW the person is a loose cannon, unstable, obsessed with weapons, nurses irrational grudges against others.  Sometimes they even report the person to the police or other authorities...but...there is nothing anyone can do.  Not until the person DEMONSTRATES that they are a harm to themselves or others.

      It is a crazy system.  We have got to come up with something better for treating the psychologically unstable then arming them, letting them commit horrific crimes and then finally incarcerating them.

      Newt Gingrich: Believes marriage is between one man and a series of ever younger women. Wife #1 born ~ 1936, divorced when in her mid-40s...Wife #2 born ~1947, divorced when in her mid-40s...Wife #3 born ~1966.

      by trillian on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:54:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree 100% (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkosdan, happy camper

        I'm not so much we need to ban any guns. Heller decision says it's an individual right.

        However I think maybe that to be able to buy stuff that has a big potential to kill a lot of people at once maybe a slightly higher bar needs to be set as far as proof of mental stability before owning??

        The dude shot over 50 people. So while a FMJ bullet could go thru somebody and hit somebody else for sure, the guy obviously got off a LOT of rounds quick.

        IF people don't want big clips or military style semi autos banned, maybe there at least there should be a bit more scrutiny mental health wise of who gets to own them.

        Wouldn't totally alleviate the problem but even if it saved 50 people a year might be worth it.

      •  but what if the person won't accept help? (0+ / 0-)

        I know a guy who is really tightly-wound, thin-skinned, can't or won't talk about his emotions, can lose his temper easily, holds grudges, married but even his wife treads lightly around many sensitive 'buttons' or 'emotional land-mines'. He's mid-50s, so hopefully out of the range of 'going postal', but I've seen him get in a serious fight with another dog-owner at the park, for no apparent reason. (I think he had a minor brain-injury/concussion when he was a boy, which might be the cause of the trigger-temper.) Usually, he's fine and able to cope. But he did inherit some guns, and I've wondered "what if..." Anyone who suggested he get help would become the target of his ire and scorn, and fan his flames. (I think his wife convinced him a few times to see a counselor/ therapist, years ago, and if anything it only made things worse.)

        It's easy after-the-fact (20-20 vision of hindsight) to say: "Someone should have known and done something." But yes, until the person demonstrates they are a harm, one can't always prevent the problem. And, most often, the person does not in fact commit some crime or tragedy.

        •  There are probably a lot of people (0+ / 0-)

          who meet that description and there is probably nothing anyone can or should do.  

          BUT when a person like that starts really losing it, gets fired, starts buying guns, researching explosives, obsessing over the guy he got in a fight with at the park, researching him, stalking him, when he moves from creepy unstable jerk to making the hair on the back of your neck stand up, when the people who know him just KNOW something is going to happen...I wish there was a way to force a psych eval or something.

          Newt Gingrich: Believes marriage is between one man and a series of ever younger women. Wife #1 born ~ 1936, divorced when in her mid-40s...Wife #2 born ~1947, divorced when in her mid-40s...Wife #3 born ~1966.

          by trillian on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:57:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You know..... (11+ / 0-)

      We seem to have a big problem  with too many guns,pitiful gun control laws,crazies screaming about their second amendment rights,and the NRA which never assumes any blame when something like this happens.

      We could certainly slow down the aging process if it had to work its way through Congress. Will Rogers

      by zestyann on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:54:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Anders Breivik (5+ / 0-)

        was able to obtain guns even though he lives in a country with very strict controls. Criminals will always find a way to get what they want, whether it be drugs or weapons or any other prohibited items.

        "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

        by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:15:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes here in Canada, criminals get guns (10+ / 0-)

          even with our (reasonably) strict gun laws, but for some reason a "massacre" in Toronto was two people killed and several wounded.  As terrible as it is for those two families, how much worse is it for a dozen American families this morning?

          Gun control works in reducing the NUMBER of people killed like this.  I'm pro-gun, but no body but the military needs assault rifles and smoke grenades for Gods sake.

          Wake up.


          •  Quantity.. Arms are our biggest export.. (3+ / 0-)

            Bigger than high tech, bigger than Agriculture, bigger than.. everything else. This is the fact that both political parties go to extremes to NOT tell us. We are the criminal enterprise.

            There are so many guns in America because our best industry in manufacturing is.. guns. We export by the millions, and that means at the source, here, we have millions of them hanging around from 100 years of overproduction. Nuts can get them MUCH more easily here than in Canada since there are so many stashed around the place. Its the price of Empire, doncha know.

            America is a powder keg looking for a light.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:09:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Violent behavior (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, fuzzyguy, KVoimakas

            has many causes, and access to weapons is not one of them. Can you point to where I said military grade hardware should be available to all?

            We must address the root causes. Banning the tools is a feel good measure, but it won't stop the problem. Look at Great Britain, where guns are effectively banned, and where random knife attacks are common, and burglars invade occupied homes because they know they will not encounter a homeowner with a gun.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:24:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A gun isn't a tool (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bevenro, Sharon Wraight

              Apologies if I mistook you for someone against an assault weapons ban.

              I served in the  Canadian Forces and I know my way around firearms and other pyro--a gun is not a tool, it is meant to kill and has no other rational purpose.  It's pretty damned easy to kill LOTS of people at once with a gun--not so much with knives.

              Home invasions happen here sure, but the flip side of that is they rarely end up with someone dead.   Even home invasion burglars don't deserve to be shot out of hand do they?  There's no capital punishment for B&E as far as I know.

              The fact is, root causes will always be with us--we'll never have a society where violence doesn't happen; but we need to limit the ability for mass murder, and that means limits on firearms.  Period.


              •  Military weapons (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, KVoimakas, fuzzyguy

                are strictly controlled in the US. The assault weapons ban was all about look-alike weapons with the same functionality as commonly used hunting weapons. A black gun with a folding stock was banned, the same gun in a traditional look was just fine.

                Kinda silly, eh?

                I do not advocate shooting people over property by any means, but a person who deliberately invades a home when the owners are present may be armed, or have other intentions than making of with a flat screen.

                "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:04:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Assault rifles have been highly regulated (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, fuzzyguy, happy camper

                since the 1930s. One requirement is federal registration.

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:13:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  According to that rationale.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChurchofBruce, splintersawry

          ...there is no point in banning [insert whatever disgusts you most] because a sufficiently determined person might have a chance of evading any efforts you make.

          You take measures to reduce the frequency and severity. Complete elimination is only a hope.

          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

          by sagesource on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:12:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Banning stuff doesn't work. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, fuzzyguy, KVoimakas

            The drug war has shown us that. Ban something and it becomes the province of criminal gangs. See alcohol prohibition.

            Control works better. Many thousands of people are prevented from purchasing each year by the system we have in place now. It needs improvement, but it does work.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:19:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  yes because they have easy access to guns n/t (4+ / 0-)

      You don't get to keep democracy unless you fight for it.

      by artebella on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:55:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes (6+ / 0-)

      Why do these kinds of massacres seem to happen so much more in the US than in other countries?

      The GOP seems incapable of learning from other countries -- it's became an epithet among them to accuse someone of being "European," etc.

      Framing it the way Hollowdweller does is helpful. Something is wrong in the states of USA.

      The solution is probably broad-based, and will involve elements of both liberal and conservative persuasions. (E.g., from progressives: mental health services, reasonable gun-controls, etc. From conservatives: family values, respect for authority, traditions, reasonable religious beliefs, etc.)

      •  I don't know that they do (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happy camper, fuzzyguy, Matt Z

        We are a big country, spread out, with probably the largest and most ubiquitous media machine in the world.

        We hear EVERYTHING that happens here, and not much that happens overseas.

        If china was having mass murders every 3 wks, we probably wouldn't know. It might show up on one of the history/crime channels 5 yrs later, maybe. Same with almost every country except the uk, Australia, or Canada. Maybe some of the Scandinavian countries where English is almost universally spoken.

        If breivik had happened in any African country, would we have heard about it? What if it happened in a small Asian country?

        Oh wait, I think something like that DID happen.

        •  It's pretty bad. (5+ / 0-)

          Simple statistic, but here's a per-capita gun homicide chart:

          Sure, we're not the worst, but we're at 4.14 homicides per 100,000....  the stable W. European countries are less than 0.5.  E/SE Europe is a bit higher, around 2.


          That's a pretty grim showing for the U.S., as far as I'm concerned.

          •  It is useful (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fuzzyguy, KVoimakas

            to remember that half of all homicides are criminals killing other criminals. Western Europe has lower overall crime rates than we do, not just lower homicide rates.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:27:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course. (3+ / 0-)

              Although I don't think that our drug/crime-war culture is helped by the fact that we are a society that is so protective of our guns.

              I think there is a cultural flaw in our society, however, that leads us to place a disproportionately high value on the second amendment and not recognize that the 'right to bear arms' need not lead to 'the right to bear lots and lots of heavy arms'.

              I"m not sure that gun-control helps all that much in a society that is so gun-centric, although I do support stringent checks and limitations.  But I think that there should be more of a discussion as to why we feel so threatened by such increased regulations--and really why, as a nation, we ARE so gun-happy.

              •  The vast majority (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, fuzzyguy, KVoimakas, mmacdDE

                of gun owners are hunters and recreational shooters who take their responsibilities seriously, securely storing their weapons, following safety protocols, and generally causing no trouble. Most gun owners have no problem with background checks and other such proven, effective measures, because they don't want criminals to have guns any more than non gun owners do.

                I think we'd get better mileage from reducing poverty and the associated crime, ending the gang support system called the Drug War, and improving mental health care than from any ban on specific weapons, extended mags, waiting periods, and the like.

                "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:51:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's deeper. (3+ / 0-)

        This nation has two original sins:  slavery and Indian removal.  If you're surrounded and outnumbered 2:1 or 5:1 by enslaved people with extra grudges, you (figuratively) sleep with your rifle.  If the government (British or American) encourages you to squat on somebody else's land, the original owners get understandably testy and again you have to sleep with a gun.  

        "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

        by Yamaneko2 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:32:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think its deeper than that even, though (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grumpelstillchen, fuzzyguy

          you've hit on the fundamentals.

          You can't know at some level that your privilege is the result of the destruction of millions of other lives, and that yourself and others value this privilege as just and right and natural, without losing something of your soul—even if you don't consciously know about it.

          I think we are worse people for our past, at the level of moral fibre. We are forced to cope constantly with the possibility that we are either or are descended from either mass murderers or hypocrites.

          No, this isn't at the conscious level for most. But people have seen the bucolic images of Native Americans in "times past" and they are aware of the reservation today and its problems. The same goes for slavery and its history, the modern urban slums, hip-hop culture, etc. They don't consciously understand, can't elaborate, but the human brain is pretty good at making associations that drive intuitive pre-conscious thought.

          I think in a very real but subtle way, the colonial nature of this state and the incredible suffering that is its foundation and that hangs in the air forever doom it to problems that other states don't have to cope with.

          -9.63, 0.00
          I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

          by nobody at all on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:43:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  also the media (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mainely49, Sharon Wraight

          and culture.  Just look at what we find "entertaining" as a culture. I mean is it lost on everyone the fact that the theater was packed with people watching a movie glorifying violence when this occurred?

          Bad is never good until worse happens

          by dark daze on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:43:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Of course! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharon Wraight

          Why didn't I think of this?   Those white devil colonists caused this person to shoot up a theater.

      •  Because... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Why do these kinds of massacres seem to happen so much more in the US than in other countries?
        ...we are, and have always been, a very violent country.
  •  2nd ammedment rights? (4+ / 0-)

    At the risk of sounding incentive, I dare ask, what about gun control laws? Why as the opposition party have our leaders caved in and ceded the issue to the other side? How many death bodies must we count before saying, enough? How many more lunatics are we allowing to purchase as many high caliber weapons as they wish without a meaningful background check? Well if the thinking is "it won't happen to me", think again. I will channel my sadness, anger and frustration in making sure that my elective representative hear not only the NRA pro gun lobby, but voices like mine that clamored for common sense regulations that will keep guns from unstable individuals. I sincerely hope the president doesn't let this criminal act go by without proposing any gun regulation legislation.    

    •  Political will isn't there. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KVoimakas, Otteray Scribe

      Right now there are still hating on Obama based on the paranoid suspicion he MIGHT ban guns.

      Trying to gig the admin and Holder on Fast and Furious because of the paranoid suspicion it was an attempt to make a case for more gun control.

      I am a gun owner but honestly thanks to the NRA there is a whole legion of paranoid people who vote in elections.

      Until either those people are made to feel secure that preventing crazy people from getting guns will not infringe on their right to own guns, and there are forces who make money off of perpetuating that idea, any even rational prevention efforts will not pass.

      •  No one can ban guns in America... (0+ / 0-)

        the manufacturers, workers, congressmen, military, and interest groups will not allow it. Guns are our biggest export and biggest profit manufactured item.

        To ban guns would have the same economic effect as banning slavery 150 years ago. Half the economy would collapse. We have made a bargain with the devil and its almost time to pay up.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:12:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not to mention the support the second amendment (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rockhound, fuzzyguy, Otteray Scribe

          receives from the people who count: the citizens and voters of the US.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:15:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The best we can do is have a Well-Regulated (0+ / 0-)

            Militia for the first time in our history. Having a Very Unregulated and Chaotic Militia doesn't seem to work, much to the surprise of many, not including the Founders.

            Count me in.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:42:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We do. It's called the National Guard. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rockhound, Otteray Scribe

              I'm a part of the unorganized militia, per US code. You might be too. Are you male and between the ages of 18 and 45?

              Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:03:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We also have the Unregulated Chaos Militia.. (0+ / 0-)

                which is what you seek to interpret as Constitutional, and which I seek to argue is precisely UNConstitutional given a logical and historical reading of the Second Amendment.

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:30:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Historical reading of the second amendment? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rockhound, Otteray Scribe

                  Try again:

                  I contend that the first section is a prefatory clause. The well regulated militia is an example of why the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. Quite a few people say that there is no other Bill of Rights amendment that has such a thing. They would be correct. But if you look at other state constitutions of the time, you'll see quite a few.

                  New Hampshire, 1784:

                  In criminal prosecutions, the trial of facts in the vicinity where they happen, is so essential to the security of the life, liberty and estate of the citizen, that no crime or offence ought to be tried in any other county than that in which it is committed . . . .
                  Massachusetts, 1780. New Hampshire, 1784. Vermont, 1786:
                  The freedom of deliberation, speech, and debate, in either house of the legislature, is so essential to the rights of the people, that it cannot be the foundation of any accusation or prosecution, action or complaint, in any other court or place whatsoever
                  Even if you want to jump forward in time (to 1842) you will find something similar in Rhode Island:
                  The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any person may publish his sentiments on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty . . . .
                  Hell, if you look Dred Scott case:
                  It would give to persons of the negro race, ...the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased ...the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.
                  Emphasis mine.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:42:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We have seen these "citations" before. (0+ / 0-)

                    So, you argue that the Second Amendment contains an Informational bit to explain why the Amendment exists. If that is the case, why does no other Amendment contain such a Informational text? Why this one? I concede that other states and even other decisions may have Informational bits in them, but in the case of the Second Amendment to the Constitution, the framers recognized the importance of EVERY WORD to the future interpretation of the document.

                    Jefferson claimed that this is precisely WHY they document was made to be Amended and Interpreted. Times Change. People Change. Morals Change. Technology Changes. The framers could not leave out the Well-Regulated Militia clause because they knew that at some future time, events could cause people to reconsider an absolute and unregulated right for the practical effects it would have in the real world. The Supremes worked overhard at defining it away, calling it "prefatory" or "nonbinding," but the effects of calling it that are now plain for all to see. It is NOT prefatory, it is not "nonbinding," and they were wrong to call it so. It is in fact, dependent. It is the cause and the effect of rational thinking. Anyone who claims it is not after scores of individual terrorist mass murders has an allegiance to magical thinking rather than good old American Pragmatism.

                     The Constitution reflects the ambiguity the framers had in blanket right-giving in terms of weapons. Like slavery, they calculated its eventual extinction, until the clever lawyers and Justices bought by the slave holders interpteted the Constitution to exclude, and to further bind more harshly, black folks.  That reverse slide, that retrograde interpretation of the Constitution over 80 years, had to be reversed by warfare. I hope, sincerely hope this issue does not come down to that, but if there is no "give" on the part of gun owners, at least to recalssify automatic weapons as automatic weapons,  if they are so pig-headed to not understand the need to change slightly, then it will come to national tragedy of epic scope.

                    I claim that the Second Amendment was framed is this way, as does Justice Breyer, to give the future some hope that weapons may become more rare and less desirable in the future, by way of regulation, rather than more plentiful and more desired, just because of the effects you see today. As with the slavery issue, we are headed in the wrong direction with availability and access, and will continue to suffer acts of terror domestically in increasing impunity unless rational gun owners come to their senses and accept that responsibility must sometimes be accepted by Me or You so that it must be compelled to other less responsible people. I refuse to accept that I get to have a weapon so that people with mental issues may also get one. I want them, and me, to pass a Well-Regulated test, or tests, be certified by trainers, join and commit to further training, to be compelled to be responsible. That is Constitutional, not the weaseling and sidestepping parsing of "prefatory" phrasing claims. Asserting the entirety of the Second Amendment is upright and honest argument. It is not deceptive and unmanly in its weaseling argument. It is the mark of free people to accept responsibility for regulation, however inconvenient it may be, in order to make sure that people less responsible are held to a high standard and terror does not stalk the land in the guise of "freedom."

                    I accept it. I want others to see the need. I want a new way of thinking beyond the adolescent "I want" and "I get" thinking to take hold in America. We must stop this constant weaseling out of inconvenient responsibilities if we want to be a first rate nation. We can start with this.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:14:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I have a suggestion. (8+ / 0-)

                      Find yourself a good test case, file your lawsuit, and make sure it is appealed all the way up to the SCOTUS.  Maybe you can convince them to reverse precedent in Heller and other related cases. Be sure to let us know when you file your lawsuit so we can follow the case.

                       Good luck.

                      The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand. - Sun Tzu

                      by Otteray Scribe on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:34:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The hope lies in Persuasion, not legal case law. (0+ / 0-)

                        If enough Americans can see the insane way we have allowed the most irresponsible people to own whatever weapon they want, we will influence the Supreme Court, even though they claim to be non-political. In the long sweep, this is the way to change.

                         Today, any regulation of automatic weapons within the Well Regulated Militia clause would be struck down by the Right Wing/Libertarian courts. That is not the way to do it. The hope lies in persuading the American people to allow more regulation of automatic (including semiautomatic) weapons, and in the long run, even the Supreme Court will see the practicality of doing it. In the meantime, all we can do is try to persuade people for minor changes in the right direction.

                        After today, that possibility becomes a step closer. Events change people's minds, not logical argument. In the end, some people are NEVER persuaded, they must be outvoted and regulated against their will, but like slavery, a "liberal economic policy" of unregulated free economics of the time, it will be accomplished. It may take several more years of tragic news to happen. Events will eventually persuade people to fulfill the Well-Regulated clause of the Second Amendment. Not yet, obviously.

                        I am also a gun owner, and exercise my Second Amendment right, and yet, I would be willing to concede to more regulation if it meant that people like the current suspect was disallowed from owning. That inconvenience does not trouble me, and I think it is a policy which will come to us eventually if we want to avoid more horror in public places. Americans always do the right thing, eventually, after exhausting all the other possibilities, as Churchill noted. We are legendary for our stubbornness, but it will be seen to be mere pigheadedness eventually.

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:06:57 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  What other Constitutional Rights.... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ER Doc, rockhound

                      should the government make you pass a test for?


        •  Say what? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Guns are our biggest export and biggest profit manufactured item.
          I would love to see a link for that.

          Not a single gun manufacturer is on the Fortune 500. In 2007 the US exported over $1 trillion in goods, and you claim that guns were our biggest export?


          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 10:51:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is contained within "Arms and Defense" (0+ / 0-)

            manufacturing. Guns of all sizes, calibers, propellants, delivery systems, etc etc etc. Together, the weapons of America are how we stay afloat in the economic swirl of International Capitalism. Money however we can get it. A deal with the Devil.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:47:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Follow the money (0+ / 0-)

      The reason why there is no political opposition to more gun sales has to do with money.

      Selling guns and ammo is very profitable.  The gun industry wants to maintain high levels of profit by selling as many guns and as much ammo as they possibly can.  The gun industry uses the money they make from selling guns and ammo to corrupt our law-makers and buy the laws that facilitate gun and ammo sales.  Profits from gun and ammo slaes are also used to help remove from office those law-makers who might support laws that regulate gun and ammo sales.

      While the profits made from selling guns and ammo are a part of the problem of public mass murders, clearly another large part of the problem is a system of guvernment bv which the wealthy and corporate interests are allowed to buy the laws and law-makers they want to benefit their business.

      While I applaud your desire to let your representative know your thoughts on the issue of guns and gun control, your representative will in all likelihood be more responsive to those monied interests than in your opinions that are not accompanied by a $5-10k donation.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:08:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey guys (25+ / 0-)

    Please, the speculation (or assertions) that this individual was motivated by politics is premature and inappropriate.  No information has been released that indicates what the man's motive was.

     Until we know more let's not look like a bunch of douche-bags who are appropriating a tragedy for political purposes.  Just wait for information before drawing conclusions.  


    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

    by Triscula on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 06:58:25 AM PDT

    •  You are correct (4+ / 0-)

      We know absolutely nothing about this guy and his motives. But if he does indeed turn out to be a wingnut, I'm running with it and I won't be ashamed to do so.

    •  Triscula - with all due respect (5+ / 0-)

      I agree this particular event / person should not be used for political purposes.


      That does not absolve FOX / Limpballs / Hannity / etc from whipping up their listeners with lies and assertions which may trigger someone to even think about doing something like this.

      I will NOT connect Holmes with politics until there is real data.

      However, I will hold agitators with millions of listener / viewers responsible for the vile spew that comes out of their mouths.

      •  That's fine (0+ / 0-)

        I agree that there's been a lot of irresponsible rhetoric from right wing entertainment media.  They should be held to account for their reckless rantings.  That's not really the point I was making though.  My point is that we don't know anything about what motivated this person.  When we jump to the conclusion that he was motivated by politics or incendiary rhetoric from wingnut media personalities it just looks opportunistic and crass.  

        The fact is that we just don't know anything about this guy and, really, any number of things could have motivated him to do what he did.  I've observed that there often isn't a clear, understandable reason for insane acts like this.  

        That's all I'm sayin'.

        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

        by Triscula on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:34:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually ABC Made Tea Party Connection VERY Early (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It may well prove wrong, but there was information released of a political connection almost immediately.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:47:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The ABC suggestion was incorrect (0+ / 0-)
        An earlier ABC News broadcast report suggested that a Jim Holmes of a Colorado Tea Party organization might be the suspect, but that report was incorrect. Several other local residents with similar names were also contacted via social media by members of the public who mistook them for the suspect.

      •  ABC Has RETRACTED The Tea Party Claim (0+ / 0-)
        Editor's Note: An earlier ABC News broadcast report suggested that a Jim Holmes of a Colorado Tea Party organization might be the suspect, but that report was incorrect. ABC News and Brian Ross apologize for the mistake, and for disseminating that information before it was properly vetted.

        And to be fair, Ross only said there was a "James Holmes" from Aurora who was a Colorado Tea Party member:

        There’s a Jim Holmes of Aurora, Colorado, page on the Colorado Tea Party site as well, talking about him joining the Tea Party last year,” said Ross. “Now, we don’t know if this is the same Jim Holmes. But it’s Jim Holmes of Aurora, Colorado.”

        A personal page on a Colorado Tea Party website shows a user named Jim Holmes highlighted an event with an expert who had discussed “global Islamic terrorism. ” This link between the shooter and the Tea Party that ABC News was referring to.

        UPDATE: ABC News has issued a correction to their earlier report. The alleged shooter was not linked to the Colorado Tea Party

        “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have little.” ~ FDR

        by dmhlt 66 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:32:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Onion (14+ / 0-)

    Morbid, but prescient.

    NRA Sets 1,000 Killed In School Shooting As Amount It Would Take For Them To Reconsider Much Of Anything

    National Rifle Association Executive Vice President and CEO Wayne LaPierre said Monday that somewhere around 1,000 kids would have to die in a school shooting in order for the organization to reconsider their longstanding opposition to gun control.

    "Yeah, that's probably the only way we'd reassess much of anything at this point: 1,000 dead kids, shot up pretty good, lying face down in the school auditorium or something like that," LaPierre said, noting that anything less than 1,000 dead kids would not be enough for the NRA to stop urging Congress to pass pro-gun legislation. "I mean, that's just a ballpark number, but I imagine seeing 1,000 or so body bags being wheeled out of a school and a whole town of crying parents would probably make us reflect on our values for at least a little bit."

    "So yeah, more or less 1,000 dead kids," LaPierre added. "Something around there. And teachers don't count."

    That was from less than 2 months ago.
  •  Nothing will happen concerning gun laws, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Palafox, splintersawry

    availability. Lawmakers worship at the altar of the NRA. Disgusting, appalling, heartbreaking. Apparently, Mayor Bloomberg has called on Obama and Romney for action on the issue. I wouldn't hold my breath.

    I think, therefore I am. I think.

    by mcmom on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:20:36 AM PDT

  •  of course, the first thing i thought of was (0+ / 0-)

    limbaugh...that's how MY mind works

    now, it may turn out this heinous mass murderer was a nice liberal lad and a member of greenpeace, but i doubt it

    I got the crabs from Christian Mingle!

    by memofromturner on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:22:52 AM PDT

    •  I thought the same thing. (11+ / 0-)

      Not that there is a connection (certainly we don't know yet), but I teach on the campus of a very conservative university that was playing the Limbaugh show over the PA system at my building just earlier this week, as he went on and on about how this movie is basically another socialist-liberal plot to subliminally brainwash the public or nonsense along those lines, for quite some time.

      I came home and told my wife and said "great, now we'll have violence by crazy right-wingers at Batman movie showings."

      There are lots of very angry, very conservative students that are also very young in my classes. I have to teach about things like poverty and race and I regularly have kids walk out of the classroom red in the face in groups on days when we talk statistics and policy and demographics related to these issues.

      My course evaluations routinely have me as a socialist or a brainwasher, just for presenting federal statistics and talking about social issues.

      Again, so far as we know there's no connection, and I don't expect that there will be. But still, it makes you think. The irrational anger in this country at lots of things that might be the issue here is going to give us fits.

      And regardless of link, we need to figure out a way, without completely neutering free speech, to stem some of the anger creation work coming from people like Limbaugh.

      Making every . last . person . or . thing . in . the . country . other . than . "right thinkers" . into an enemy of the state is not something that's going to help the state of politics in this country.

      -9.63, 0.00
      I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

      by nobody at all on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:36:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I doubt it (0+ / 0-)

      More likely he was just a mentally disturbed loner with no political motives.

  •  Brian Ross of ABC News identified (5+ / 0-)

    the gunman as a member of the Tea Party. Right wing crazies are not taking that well, claiming Holmes belonged to Occupy Black, part of Occupy Wall Street. Anybody ever heard of Occupy Black?

    The Egyptian military has a country; the American corporations have a country.

    by Village expects idiot home soon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:36:21 AM PDT

  •  Some data (7+ / 0-)

    1) Shooter's home address is in a poor neighborhood - not the poorest, but definitely lower-class
    2) Shooter lived about 4 miles from the theater
    3) Theater is in a mall, which is not high-end; anchor stores are Dillard's, Macy's, Penny's, Sears. No Nordstroms etc.
    4) Shooter identified as white but neighborhood is about 50% white. Will be interested to see racial identification of victims
    5) Shooter lived in an unremarkable apartment building at 1690 Paris Street, Aurora, CO, 80012. Use Google Street View

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'y a aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il y a toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:38:53 AM PDT

  •  Any time the alleged shooter's mom agrees.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean, Matt Z

    that he was fucked up and probably did it, you know we're dealing with a monster. Parents are usually the last one's to believe their kids did something truly awful.

    •  Why monster? She's probably been (4+ / 0-)

      struggling for years to get help for him.  I'm mentally ill.  Without great luck, a large supportive family, AA, and hard work on my part I could be someone who killed people.  I'm incredibly lucky, probably a rarity.  Please channel your anger toward the people who cut services every damn year.  This is more fallout from Grover Norquistism.

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:49:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why monster? Because he shot 62 people.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        and gassed the fucking place and planned it in advance and booby trapped his apartment.

        I'm not looking to place blame or make excuses, just merely commenting on how truly lost this guy was to have his mom hear about a mass slaughter and say "Yep, that sounds like him."

      •  And there are others (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541, fuzzyguy, Matt Z

        Who just die without the help they need and without harming anyone but themselves.

        Mental health needs to become a topic of concern in this country.  There is too much suffering because it is ignored.

      •  yeah...a bit too much political correctness here. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happy camper, cyeko, splintersawry, Matt Z

        I think if a guy goes and shoots up 15 people at a movie theater, or 62 people in a Norweigan summer camp, or whatever, I'm pretty justified in calling him a 'monster'.

        Sure, there are severe systemic problems.  But that doesn't absolve a perpetrator IN THE LEAST.

        •  Calling them monsters (0+ / 0-)

          dehumanizes them. Dehumanizing them makes the person an "other" a "monster", rather than a mentally disturbed person that we as a society failed to help at our own and the victims detriment.

          We as a nation failed to help the "lone gunmen". The cost of doing so wasn't just the loss of those gunmen but each of their victims.

          Advocate for more, better, and affordable/free mental health services if you want to reduce the likelihood of these terrible crimes and save the lives of innocent people.

          •  doesn't matter. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            Some people could well be helped--not all can--we don't know.  Recognizing that they could have been helped DOES NOT ABSOLVE THEM of these crimes, at all.

            Are these people victims of society in many ways? Of course they are.  Could they have been helped?  In many cases, yes.  They're also monsters.  Sorry.

            •  Calling them monsters (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              is an attempt to absolve our society for failing to do its job. I'm not calling for the gunman to be absolved of their heinous crimes. That would be a completely different statement.

              Dehumanizing the gunman is an attempt at absolving our society, culture, and elected officials of their duties to ensure that the mentally ill receive adequate treatment, and are restricted from purchasing weapons on the NCIS registry. If the person is instead a "monster" then no amount of help or prevention would have changed the outcome so why bother to fund mental health? If you can't make that connection then I am failing to express it clearly and hope someone else can do a better job of it.

              What he did was horrendous, despicable, tragic, but completely and totally human and likely preventable.

        •  Nice try! It's hardly elitist PC to (0+ / 0-)

          suggest that we threw the mentally out on the streets to save taxpayers from providing help.  Yes there are monsters out there, but that doesn't explain why Norway has mass shootings once a decade or less, and we have several a year.  Letting the NRA off the hook doesn't solve the problem.  Letting austerity reign doesn't save lives.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:46:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, Dr Swig Mcjigger

    MSNBC has said the suspect wasn't on any domestic watch lists, doesn't appear to be connected with international terrorism, and I can't copy/paste from this unit but they said something to the effect of he's not likely to have any accomplices.

    Weathering Michigan's recessions since the '70s.

    by jennifree2bme on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:44:34 AM PDT

  •  A well regulated militia, huh? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    My thoughts and prayers to those butchered by this madman. Kyrie eleison

    Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

    by Rustbelt Dem on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:45:13 AM PDT

  •  Sadly, knowing our culture, this will be all but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    forgotten by August. So sad. So pointless.

  •  We really (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, splintersawry

    need to have a calm, common sense discussion in this country on guns.  My co-workers (young men) said that if they had a concealed weapon, they would have taken out the shooter, my comment back.. dark theater, not sure where the shooter was, how would you know who to shoot? AND just think if 4 or 5 people had whipped out their guns to shoot at the shooter.. would you shoot another person that was trying to take out the shooter..

    It is the shoot first, ask questions later mentality of the conceal and carry laws that drive me crazy.  AND no one, no one but the military and police need automatic weapons.

    Why do Republicans Hate Americans?

    by Caniac41 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:45:53 AM PDT

  •  It's the guns. (7+ / 0-)

    This country will continue to function at an insane level of violence as long as the NRA keeps up it's strangle hold on Congress. I do NOT care if you like to hunt, no I don't. I do NOT care if you think you need weapons in your house for protection, no I don't. And I certainly do  NOT care if you get sexual hots gazing at all the shiny phalluses in your collection.

    Gun possession is out of control here. So any maniac with an axe to grind can go on a rampage.

    It's like global warming - you either face the facts, or you're a denier.

    And I don't have any  more sympathy for the gun-lovers on the Left, including those I read here at Kos.

    I hope in my lifetime I see the NRA stripped of it's freedom to prevent us all from having a safe and sane society.

    Pisses off you NRA types, right? Go ahead and rant, I ain't listening, any more than I would to the global warming deniers.

  •  This sounds disturbing similar to (0+ / 0-)

    the movie "Rampage", complete with gas mask. Making me ill.

  •  This is just wrong. twitchy, michelle malkins (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    hate site, is running a headline that the left is blaming Jiggles Limbaugh. You see how fucked up this all is? We need to wait for the facts.

    Although malkin would just make it up if it werent true.

  •  The stupid people are speaking... (11+ / 0-)

    Rep Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) -

    "that the shootings that took place in an Aurora, Colo. movie theater hours earlier were a result of "ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" and questioned why nobody else in the theater had a gun to take down the shooter."
  •  oh man. I get up to this? words fail. how horrible (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    susan in sc, Amber6541, slouchsock

    prayers for the folks in CO.

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:54:08 AM PDT

  •  another gun nut episode (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal

    First my deepest sympathy to all those who lost their lives, the wounded and all the families involved. Now we'll have the dumb shit NRA and gun lobby as well as the brain dead assholes who always say, it's not the guns it's the people.  Well assholes, when you have states passing laws and making it like the Wild West, what the hell do you expect.  Do we need people with an AK 47 and three other weapons on the street?  Hell you dumb fucks if we have sensible, enforecable laws and don't bow to the NRA and gun nuts and if even save just one life it's woth it.  Wise the fuck up!

  •  How dare Obama? ... (0+ / 0-)

    That's it! How dare the Kenyan, communist, socialist, no-birth certificate, un-American monster give condolences to these families?

    Unfortunately the Fox News crowd will be spewing comments like that all day and make Holmes a hero, all because President Obama dared to express his sympathies to the families. It's Trayvon Martin's death all over again, but in this case there are many more dead.

    And in spite of the fact that Holmes belongs to the Colorado Tea Party Patriots (sic), teabaggers are already peddling that Holmes was part of the Occupy Wall Street Movement.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:58:17 AM PDT

  •  Well, I live in Aurora (8+ / 0-)

    I go to that movie theater at least twice a month. Right now the community is in shock, the last thing we need is a gun control debate. There will be a time for that, but it's not today.

    "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government" -Thomas Jefferson

    by Phil In Denver on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:08:22 AM PDT

  •  They are saying he was Black Bloc (0+ / 0-)

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 08:15:47 AM PDT

  •  MSNBC saying he was a Med School dropout (0+ / 0-)

    That could explain a bit.

  •  If it turns out he was a Rush Limbagh fan... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Can we maybe get him off the air finally.

    This would be a clear case of him inciting violence which is not protected by the first amrndment.

    This shooting didn't happen at a showing of Madagascar 3 or Pixar's Brave... it happened at a movie that Rush spent 2 days calling a conspiracy.

    It's sad and tragic, and probably preventable.

  •  Not sure if this has been reported above, (0+ / 0-)

    but the murderer definitely has booby traps setup in his apartment.

    The authorities are carefully working this.  They will be exploding it or something.

    This local channel is carrying everything:

    •  Guns used as reported by (0+ / 0-)

      4 of them:

      Smith & Wesson assault rifle (no info on how many clips, any modifications, etc.)

      2 Glocks (one identified as 40 caliber)

      1 Remington 870.

      Reporting said that this info was from the police.

      They also reported this fact, which I found in writing on MSNBC:

      The university website listed one of his courses as: The Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders. He was listed on the class website as making a presentation in the spring on MicroRNA biomarkers.

  •  Suspect was a med student (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    From the BBC, all times British:

    1631: The Associated Press confirms with a university spokeswoman that James Holmes was a student at University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine, and that he withdrew in June.

  •  NRA - 12 : USA - 0 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal

    They're doing victory laps over at NRA Headquarters.  

  •  Hmm, well... (0+ / 0-)

    "By the way, isn't it absurd that Mitt Romney's definition of losing the Bain battle ... is for people to believe that he worked there?"

    Yes....polar opposite of Bush, idinit?

    No one ever created a vibrant economy by building houses for each other. Houses are built because there is a vibrant economy.

    by Doug in SF on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:27:29 PM PDT

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