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Open Thread for Night Owls
Human Rights Watch has published a new report, Delivered Into Enemy Hands: US-Led Abuse and Rendition of Opponents to Gaddafi’s Libya. Based on interviews with 14 Libyans after the fall of the regime of Muammar al-Qadafi, the report raises new questions about whether the Bush administration only waterboarded three individuals, as it has long claimed. None of them, officials in that administration have said, were Libyan. Critics have long suspected the number was higher. If true, the stories told by the interviewed Libyans would make the case for more.
Cover of Human Rights Watch report on torture of Libyan exiles after Sept. 11 attacks.
Several of the Libyans said they were rendered to Libya nine years ago even though, at the time, the Qadafi government was known to practice torture far worse than waterboarding. U.S. law forbids transferring prisoners to nations where they would be at risk of torture.

The majority of the men were members of the anti-Qadafi Libyan Islamist Fighting Group (LIFG). They had fled the Tripoli regime in the 1980s and wound up fighting in Afghanistan against the Soviet occupation. When that war ended, they remained in Afghanistan and were there when the United States invaded to take on al-Qaeda and the Taliban after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

They gave detailed accounts of their capture and treatment at "black sites" run by the Central Intellgence Agency:

The abuse allegedly included: being chained to walls naked—sometimes while diapered—in pitch dark, windowless cells, for weeks or months at a time; being restrained in painful stress positions for long periods of time, being forced into cramped spaces; being beaten and slammed into walls; being kept inside for nearly five months without the ability to bathe; being denied food and being denied sleep by continuous, deafeningly loud Western music, before being rendered back to Libya. The United States never charged them with crimes. Their captors allegedly held them incommunicado, cut off from the outside world, and typically in solitary confinement throughout their Afghan detention. The accounts of these five men provide extensive new evidence that corroborates the few other personal accounts that exist about the same US-run facilities. One of those five, before being transferred to Afghanistan, as well as another former LIFG member interviewed for this report, were also held in a detention facility in Morocco.

New evidence of “waterboarding” torture and a similar practice during interrogations: One former detainee, Mohammed Shoroeiya, provided detailed and credible testimony that he was waterboarded on repeated occasions during US interrogations in Afghanistan. While never using the phrase “waterboarding,” he said that after his captors put a hood over his head and strapped him onto a wooden board, “then they start with the water pouring…. They start to pour water to the point where you feel like you are suffocating.” He added that, “they wouldn’t stop until they got some kind of answer from me.” He said a doctor was present during the waterboarding and that this happened numerous times, so many times he could not count. A second detainee in Afghanistan described being subjected to a water suffocation practice similar to waterboarding, and said that he was threatened with use of the board. A doctor was present during his suffocation-inducing abuse as well. The allegations of waterboarding contradict statements about the practice from senior US officials, such as former CIA Director Michael Hayden, who testified to the Senate that the CIA waterboarded only three individuals—Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. Former President Bush similarly declared in his memoirs that only three detainees in CIA custody were waterboarded. Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has also denied the use of waterboarding by the US military.

The 15-page report demonstrates once again that much remains to be learned about how the United States dealt with suspected terrorists during the early years of the Bush administration.

At Wired, Spencer Ackerman writes:

A drawing of the positions captive Libyans say their U.S. captors held them in during the early months of their detentions in 2001-2002.  
A drawing of the positions captive Libyans say their U.S. captors held them in
during the early months of their detentions in 2001-2002.

This is a drawing of a locked box which a Libyan man says U.S. interrogators once stuffed him into. It’s said to be about three feet long on each side. Only once during his two years in detention was the detainee put in the box; his confinement there lasted over an hour. The circles are small holes, into which his interrogators “prodded him with long thin objects.”

It wasn’t the only box that the CIA allegedly placed him inside. Another was a tall, narrow box, less than two feet wide, with handcuffs at the top. The detainee, Mohammed Ahmed Mohammed al-Shoroeiya, says he was placed into that one with his hands elevated and suspended by the handcuffs, for a day and a half, naked, with music blasting into his ears constantly through speakers built into the box. A different detainee describes being placed into a similar box for three days and being left with no choice but to urinate and defecate on himself.

Meanwhile, the men and women who ordered torture remain free to collect their lecture fees and take their book tours.


Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2008:

This crap has got to stop:

Regardless of what polls show, Inhofe said, voters will have to ask themselves a question once they get behind the curtain in the voting booth on Election Day.

"Do you really want to have a guy as commander in chief of this country when you can question whether or not he really loves his country?" he asked.

"That's the big question.''

Here's a bigger question: Are Democrats going to let James Inhofe stay comfortable in his Senate seat while he questions the patriotism of our presidential candidate? Especially when we have a fantastic progressive challenger in Andrew Rice?

Tweet of the Day:

Still accepting answers. How does Bill Clinton's speech compare to George W. Bush's keynote last week? #dnc2012
@AriMelber via web


Logo - Daily Kos Radio
Today's Daily Kos Radio convention coverage reviewed the Wednesday speeches, and bashed the worst of the worst (hint: AP "fact check") in Thursday punditry. here.


High Impact Posts. Top Comments.

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Comment Preferences

  •  530,579 registered users on dKos now. (20+ / 0-)

    Here are the 10 newest registered users on dKos.  Hope to see their comments and diaries here soon!  (If they're not all spammers.)

    vesternichol718
    jessesiegel921
    harmonsahl922
    lindbergbake1387
    derrickhvidb820
    markothorpe616
    noahlauritse615
    montkline922
    ademschwartz1128
    wyliewentwor754


    And since our society is obsessed with numbers that end in a lot of zeros as milestones, here's a special shoutout to users:
    #529,100: jefftobin12
    #529,200: williamtyson1128
    #529,300: corneliushje36
    #529,400: fordbork819
    #529,500: weshenderson1024
    #529,600: burrpagh1127
    #529,700: ayoubdaugher1126
    #529,800: orsonpowell717
    #529,900: christianmar820
    #530,000: devinwalther11
    #530,100: pablaturner2570
    #530,200: millard95
    #530,300: Mccleerd84
    #530,400: dustinhjelm1229
    #530,500: elishabrenna717

    We've added 1,552 more users in just the last 24 hours.  This is a continuation going back to May where we've been absolutely flooded with new users.  I'm pretty sure almost all of these new users are spammers or bots.  Notice how they all have a number at the end.  And the rate is getting faster, people.  Unlike most of us, these spammers didn't take Labor Day off.  What are they planning?


    And for your Diary Rescue music pleasure, in honor of Obama's speech tonight, here's U2's "City of Blinding Lights".

  •  All My Editorial Cartoonist Friends (23+ / 0-)

    ... have greatly missed you, George.  You gave us so many thrills.

    You thought reading "My Pet Goat" was difficult.  My friends, reading is hard work.

    •  We're still living with those "thrills." (9+ / 0-)

      No one has repealed the unconstitutional legislation that took away our rights: Patriot Acts, MCA '06 (or the additional MCA '09!!!), FISA fiasco '08, or the one that would be simpler, issuing an executive order to disband the 'office of faith-based initiatives' that Dumbya created with an executive order.

      Technically, as far as laws go, we're still functioning under Dumbya's thumb.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:34:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which is why house and senate races (6+ / 0-)

        are so important!

        Please - on behalf of the rest of the world - GOTV!

        "now this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." W. Churchill

        by Thor Heyerdahl on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:58:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, but I DO...! (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Thor Heyerdahl, 417els, JekyllnHyde, JeffW

          You want a good civics lesson?

          1964, we were on the way to my uncle's funeral - the first of my mother's siblings to die; it was a one-car rollover and he left a wife and five children, the youngest only 20 days old.

          As we were going through town, my folks stopped off and voted before we went out of town for the funeral.  They were both good Democrats and always voted a straight Democratic ticket.  (I inherited their political inclinations, obviously.)

          Freakishly, that same 20-day-old baby also died in an unexplained car accident 33 years later when she drove head on into a light pole on the way to work; drug tests done, none found; full autopsy, nothing physically wrong, so there was no explainable reason for the accident.  No one witnessed the accident..., or, if they did, they didn't come forward and tell anyone.  The only theories anyone is left with is falling asleep at the wheel or swerving to avoid an animal or person or car in the road and they left the scene.

          But nothing is too important to put off voting.  I learned the lesson about voting being important before I was old enough to vote myself.

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 12:32:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  One thing I found out was that, (5+ / 0-)

    Mayor Villaraigosa, our Chair, could talk back.

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:02:21 PM PDT

  •  Meanwhile on Facebook... (10+ / 0-)

    from someone I've known since elementary school, and had been actively backing Romney, I was surprised to see writing this after Obama's acceptance speech.

    Hmmm... I think deep down I'm still a Democrat. I'll have to sort this out before November. Might be a game day decision.
    Wow.  For this guy to not be backing Romney 100% anymore... that's big.


    Still, my Ron Paul friend can only complain about the whole God kerfuffle yesterday and how the two parties are just the "same" thing and shared this graphic from Andrew Horning, the libertarian running for Senate in Indiana.

    C'mon voters... If you vote for any Democrat or Republican, the guys in charge will still be the guys in charge.  And the guys in charge are not the people on the ballot.  You know this, right?  You may try to fool yourself with all sorts of "strategery" and "lesser evil" rationalizations, but we've been through this.  We've done it to death.  Stop this game.  Please.
    Sure, but at the end of the day, you're not going to win, buddy.  So would you rather have the Democrat or the Republican win that election?

    (BTW, can this guy take votes away from that sociopath Richard Mourdock?)

  •  These elections were easier on my brain when I (9+ / 0-)

    lived out in the hills of Connecticut without electricity and therefore no tv or radio . My head is full of bees from all the media and data flowing in. I thought Biden and Obama were great, but here I am at 1am worrying about tomorrow's fucking jobs report...shit back in the 70's out in the hills I didn't even know there was a jobs report!

  •  ADP (5+ / 0-)

    awesome report from ADP 201k jobs!!!!!
    has anyone done any analysis of where the ADP has been relative to the BLS #s which will get more airplay

  •  Who's up for "rendering" GWB? (8+ / 0-)

    Dudehisattva...

    "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

    by Dood Abides on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:04:05 PM PDT

  •  Haven't donated at all this campaign season (13+ / 0-)

    up to this point. Mostly because financially, I'm not in the best position to do so.

    But tonight I felt the timing was right, and this election is arguably more important than '08 was. I kicked in $50 to Obama.

  •  James Inhofe: boiled frog legs (0+ / 0-)

    Dudehisattva...

    "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

    by Dood Abides on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:08:31 PM PDT

  •  libya (7+ / 0-)

    last i looked the patriot act and guantanamo are still open.  

    and the new improved ndaa with special execution powers are now codified law.  

    thanks obama.  

    get real.  obama ain't an improvement on the war front or killing front.  he put 100k more men in afpak and killed innocents in libya.......

    keep it real on dkos.  even after the pep rally this week.  

    •  real as in vote for? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      417els

      another who still believes there's no difference between bush and gore.

    •  Your concern is noted (6+ / 0-)

      Chicago--Proud Home of the 1907-08 World Series Champion Chicago Cubs

      by Jeff Y on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:14:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're Here Because of 40 Years of Noted Concerns n (6+ / 0-)

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:17:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Your lack of concern (7+ / 0-)

        that the CIA is still renditioning and torturing people is also noted.
        Unbelievable.  What was considered wrong under Bush, is acceptable under Obama.
        How about the increase in drone attacks in Nations we are not even at war with?
        How about all the innocent civilians that are killed under Obama and even more killed when the rescuers go in?
        How about the increase in Naval Bases in Africa?
        If it was wrong under Bush, it is just as wrong under Obama.

        If the Fetus you Saved was GAY, would you still fight for it's RIGHT'S?

        by snoopydawg on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:26:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thank you (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lupin, snoopydawg

          glad to see a few people still have standards, and memories.

          Unbelievable indeed how so many people outraged by W's and Cheney's and Rice's actions say nothing when Obama continues illegal wars (oh sorry, Libya was just a "non-kinetic action" or something) and trampling on the constitution.

          And IANAL but I have a vague sense that under the Geneva Convention countries are required to investigate and prosecute allegations of torture.

          And yes, take a look at what is going on in Africa. US foreign policy and the CIA secret wars are completely out of control.

          She said that she was working for the ABC News
          It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use

          by Paolo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 12:59:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you too (0+ / 0-)

            especially mentioning Libya, which people here also gave a pass on.
            We are arming half the terrorists in the World, then fighting them,  and wasting so GD much money it is insane.
            Obama can't prosecute Bush, because he too would have to be prosecuted for the same crimes.
            I really wanted there to be change with him.
            But imo, a vote for him, is saying I agree with his murders.
            I won't.

            If the Fetus you Saved was GAY, would you still fight for it's RIGHT'S?

            by snoopydawg on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 08:14:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  What do you propose we do about it (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jan4insight, Jerry J, JeffW

      with 60 days to go until the general election?

      Apart from remark about it snidely, that is.

    •  "100k more troops" ????? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, PorridgeGun

      So now you just make up numbers, eh?

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:54:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, we're off to the debates. Until then, (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jriches, nellgwen, Eric0125, NonnyO, grover, JeffW

    God help us, a whole hell of a lot of punditry.

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:11:37 PM PDT

  •  Ask (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen

    Ask any Rethulagan about bush and they think your talking womens parts i swear...
    its almost as if 2000 to 2008 didnt even happen. Time just skipped put the black guy in charge and suddenly the economy is driven into a ditch, tires are cut, review mirrors broken, and someone pissed in the gas tank.
    Ok listen up cause this is important (totally stole it from bill)
    At the Repukigan convention they didnt bring out and ex president or even a good leader shit im not sure they have humans. (just one hot spanish chick from the stupid video and shes part cuban I dont like them)
    they really really think that America wont remember bush if they dont mention him. They must hold that war criminal to stay quiet and stfu.
    I dont say much to republicans i know just tisk at them and laugh. but if i did it reminded daily about bush

    I think Jesus ment christian as a verb not a noun

    by rageagnstmach on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:15:08 PM PDT

  •  Something fun ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, kerflooey, NonnyO

    Avengers opening/closing credits from 1967.

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:19:54 PM PDT

  •  CIA breaks laws? The hell you say. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, NonnyO, 2020adam

    Currently in the dark, peeking out the window,

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:24:26 PM PDT

  •  LOL, so on this other site... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, cosette

    I read, all one of the right-wingers could come up with was that "even the far left" didn't like Obama's speech.  Yes, because Michael Tomasky represents the "far left".

  •  The OnePercent Platform Found. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen

    Republican Platform

    Union workers in a neighborhood that has been Black for centuries.

  •  Too bad no one in the US will ... (8+ / 0-)

    ... hold Dumbya & Dickie accountable for their lies and war crimes.

    Nothing would make me happier than to see Dumbya, Dickie, and their lying torturous war criminal cohorts sitting in jail for the rest of their unnatural lives.

    Worse, neither Congre$$ Critter$ nor the Prez will do anything.  Heck, they voted in favor of all the unconstitutional legislation that has STILL not been repealed to give us our rights back!

    Siiiiiiiiiiiigh.  I'm old.  I'd love to see these bastards held accountable before I die.

    I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

    by NonnyO on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:28:02 PM PDT

  •  conventions (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NonnyO, The Dead Man, Lupin

    i voted, donated and worked for O in 08.  

    however i think many people feel as i do.  very conflicted.  lots of people have lost their homes.   and the bankers were bailed out and given trillions while middle class screwed.  

    sure GM was saved.  but if you are middle class living in florida or nevada.......that doesn't help.  

    people are mad, scared, mixed up.   the convention aura will be forgotten in 2 weeks.  

    many low information voters are just pissed.  

    if O had governed like fdr instead of given great speeches like fdr he would be rolling to a deserved landslide.   instead he governed for goldman sachs and increased the war front in new countries.  pakistan and libya........

    people are confused.  count me as one of them.  

    it is like the choice is goldman sachs V bain capital with some crumbs for GM and chrysler.....

    •  I'm among the biggest FDR fans you'll find (7+ / 0-)

      And my disappointments with Obama are myriad. This Night Owls lead story for example... I think everyone from Bush's cabinet should be dragged from their gated communities and sent to The Hague.

      But let's be realist idealists, please. Obama CAN'T govern like FDR did. Physically impossible, because FDR had a rubber-stamp Congress overflowing with Democrats, a super-super-majority the likes of which we'd never seen to that point, and we've never seen since.

      Even when the Democrats managed to squeak out 60 Dems in the Senate for the briefest of moments under Obama, those Dems included Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman, DINOs all the way. You're not going to get FDR-like legislation past them.

      •  The failure of the Senate was self-inficted (0+ / 0-)

        when the ridiculous filibuster rules weren't changed.  Whether it was on purpose or just through idiocy, it insured that the status quo endured and Obama had enough cover to stay to the right while mollifying the left.

        NOW SHOWING
        Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
        Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

        by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 03:02:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Cx Blades Cx 2nd Graph: remained Afghanistan, not (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, Lawrence, Creosote, jnhobbs

    Libya (I believe you meant.)
    Makes sense that way. They were fighting Russians in Af, not Lib..

    Libya now independent nation making decisions like other free countries. Refreshing. Need more countries like that. Unbought governments. Would love it here Nov 7.

    You can hold an opinion, or a grudge, or a stock, or a picket sign. But the time really to be at your best Is when you hold the hand of a trusting child.

    by renzo capetti on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:30:23 PM PDT

  •  To rephrase: (0+ / 0-)

    Dems are on the Al Bundy page. "Let's rock."

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:33:01 PM PDT

  •  Andrew Rice... (0+ / 0-)

    Hate to break your hearts, but Andrew Rice moved to Tennessee a year ago - and our Dem bench is narrow here.

    MAYBE Brad Henry would run - he's still very popular. And before you scream "Blue Dog!" card, remember this is Oklahoma - Toby Keith is considered left of center and Charlie Crist would be indistinguishable from Dennis Kucinich down here.

    Life isn't fair. You have to make it unfair in your favor.

    by Badgerjohn on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:35:39 PM PDT

  •  I have a tee shirt my mom gave me from (8+ / 0-)

    The Museum of Science and Industry.
    It all about math and science. Math diagrams, calculus, equations, pictures of scientists and mathematicians.
      That's going to be my Obama campaign tee shirt.

    "Is that your vegetarian leather jacket?" George Harrison

    by nellgwen on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:40:10 PM PDT

  •  I could never understand Blair... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NonnyO, cosette, Lupin, JeffW

    selling his soul to the devil and joining Bush's folly.

    Anyway, if there is a Hell, he'll be joining Dubya and Cheney in it.

    Mitt Romney treats people like things. And he treats things - corporations - like people.

    by richardak on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:40:23 PM PDT

  •  Positions from the Kharma Bushra (0+ / 0-)

    Dudehisattva...

    "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

    by Dood Abides on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:42:04 PM PDT

  •  The convention tweets prove that Shakespeare was (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, NonnyO, grover

    right:  Brevity is the soul of wit.

    •  The Bard is always good! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nellgwen, lineatus

      From his most often quoted play:

      William Shakespeare's Hamlet (1602), Act 2, scene 2, lines 86–92:

          LORD POLONIUS
          This business is well ended.
          My liege, and madam, to expostulate
          What majesty should be, what duty is,
          Why day is day, night night, and time is time,
          Were nothing but to waste night, day and time.
          Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
          And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
          I will be brief: your noble son is mad:
          Mad call I it; for, to define true madness,
          What is't but to be nothing else but mad?
          But let that go.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:05:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  fdr (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam, George Hier, hoplite9, Lupin

    stop with the obama excuses.  

    obama justice department went awol on wall st.  

    see corzine theft of customer funds as exhibit A.  

    in 2009, all the banks should have been shut down over a long weekend and only solvent ones opened on monday.  easy  with fdic and computers......

    don't need congress for that.  only a justice department and a president with cajones.  

    hell, obama bombed the crap out of libya without asking congress at all.  

    stop making excuses for obama paying back his biggest donor, goldman sachs.   facts based please.  

    obama is a huckster with a great speech.  his actions suck.  the obamacare law is an aei rightwing plan.  a corporate give away to pharma and insurance companies to deliver young healthy paying customers.......

    •  Lotta issues with Obama. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      renzo capetti, Eric0125, cosette, JeffW

      IMHO Romney = worse

      Follow me on Twitter: @denverunionguy

      by Richard Myers on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:54:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And, IF Romney + Obama were interchangeable, (0+ / 0-)

        Would you rather have Biden or Ryan? Hmm?
        Win First, Argue Later..

        You can hold an opinion, or a grudge, or a stock, or a picket sign. But the time really to be at your best Is when you hold the hand of a trusting child.

        by renzo capetti on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:20:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's the middle of the night (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          2020adam

          on a blog.   if you cannot argue here,  wtf.  

          what do you mean win first, argue later.  

          this ain't sports.  and it is the middle of the night on a blog.  

          get a grip.  it ain't halftime of a h.s. football game.  

    •  What a load of cr*p. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nellgwen, TM, jan4insight, PorridgeGun, JeffW

      If Obama were so Goldam Sachs friendly, then Goldman Sachs wouldn't be donating 5 times as much to Romney as to Obama.

      Your post is downright trollish.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:06:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wall st bundlers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        2020adam

        just checked.  opensecrets has 20million in wall st bundlers for obama plus 4million outright.   much more than 11million for romney.  

        your love affair with what you want obama to be, FDR is not reality.  

        hell i voted, donated and worked for him.  he sounded like fdr.  

        i was duped.  i deal with it.  get over it.  

        face reality.    just like i will face reality of what romney is.  another piece of garbage.  he is pretty transparent though.  hard to be duped by him.  

        i feel cheated by obama.  and i am not alone in the least.  millions share my view.  

        am i allowed to share this, or is kos now just an echo chamber.  i liked it better lurking years ago when dean and hillary v. obama debates occurred.  

        too much lockstepping now.  election season or no.  

        •  that's the point (0+ / 0-)

          we know Romney is absolutely horrible beyond any doubt. I can't imagine anyone worse.

          But with Obama we feel duped, betrayed, cheated.

          I watched a short interview with him over the NDAA and drone killings and he completely avoided answering the questions, just used the GWB formula of "there are evil terrorists out there" and "my number one job is to protect the country".

          Note to Obama -- if you want to stop the terrorists you don't use drones and kill innocent civilians and expect that not to arouse anger against the US.

          My sense is that Obama has no balls -- he may have the right beliefs (cf the heartwarming and inspiring speeches last time around) but once elected he couldn't stand up to the CIA and the banksters who essentially run the country now. I'd like to be proven wrong.

          She said that she was working for the ABC News
          It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use

          by Paolo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 01:06:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Tim Geithner's speed dial would disagree. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Dead Man
      •  It's not crap, it's smart business (0+ / 0-)

        Obama gives G-S 99% of what they want, but has to say mean things about them to keep the left quiet.

        Rmoney will give them 100% of what they want and will tell us serfs how awesome the Masters of the Universe are and how we should worship them.

        NOW SHOWING
        Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
        Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

        by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 03:04:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Torture will happen again. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nellgwen, 2020adam, George Hier, Paolo

    If no one is held accountable then it will happen again. It will be done by a future administration and it will be overseen by people who worked for Bush. They'll learn that they can get away with it unless people are convicted.

    Rumsfeld and Cheney knew what Ford and Reagan got away with when they worked for those Presidents. That's why they were so brazen under Bush.

    •  damn straight. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2020adam, George Hier, Paolo, The Dead Man

      the silence on the left over obama crimes and covering for bush war crimes is very dangerous.  

      there is no way it gets better.   whether obama or W drops the bombs or tortures it is the same if you are on the wrong end of the club or missile or bullet...........

      with silence of Ds under O,  it is really very scary.   i thought dems were much braver.   long time ago in the 60s they were for sure.   in the 21st c. not so much.  

      •  After being on this site through Bush and now (0+ / 0-)

        Obama, I've concluded that most democrats (at least on this site) are no better than the people on Red State.

        Quick to excuse the sins of their Team Leader, and even cheerlead them; but just as quick to condemn the same actions by the other team.

        The hypocrisy is staggering.

        NOW SHOWING
        Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
        Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

        by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 02:53:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Focusing on the issue (0+ / 0-)

        would probably convince a lot more people that it needs to be dealt with. People are going to tune out if it's just used as another anti-Obama political talking point for the "both parties are the same" crowd.
        There is an ongoing DOJ investigation that no one ever hears about.

    •  Obama's DoJ is not interested in prosecuting it (0+ / 0-)

      Which makes a good precedent of two admins allowing it.  Torture is A-OK in the USA!

      NOW SHOWING
      Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
      Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

      by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 02:50:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't understand. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric0125, JeffW

     I thought there would be more people here tonight. I was expecting more people here tonight.
      When there is nothing going on the place is packed, you can't get a seat. Tonight, last night, you can just walk right in.
      'Tis a puzzlement.

    "Is that your vegetarian leather jacket?" George Harrison

    by nellgwen on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:27:44 PM PDT

  •  Nate Silver (6+ / 0-)

    Has Obama up to 313 electoral votes and 77.3% chance of victory tonight.

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/

  •  Can Fox News report 3 minutes of "news" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TM, cosette, JeffW

    without mentioning the word "Solyndra"?

    “It takes some brass to attack a guy for doing what you did". Former President Bill Clinton

    by macleme on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:38:27 PM PDT

  •  At the risk of appearing frivlolus (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TM, jan4insight

    ...when the headline is something I prefer to read and digest after coffee in the am, but definitely not after midnight (Hint:  don't put pro-DNC tweets in a diary containing sobering news on the Mideast front.  Duh! WTF!!??)

    I'm erring on the side of not dealing with the horrifics of the title, since that deserves and requires more substantive coverage after this convention night.

    That said, I love the Tweet of the Day:

    Still accepting answers. How does Bill Clinton's speech compare to George W. Bush's keynote last week? #dnc2012
    — @AriMelber via web
    Hilarious!

    "A pride of lions" "A murder of crows" "A wunch of bankers"

    by Glinda on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:48:44 PM PDT

  •  As the post-DNC glow slowly fades, here's a word (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric0125, cosette, JeffW

    to the wise, re future "Dems suck at messaging" complaints:

    Actually, I think we should be our own media all the time. The MSM is not our friend, in case no one's noticed ;)

  •  I'll care about rendition and torture when... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paolo, The Dead Man, Jerry J

    ...Obama cares and Justice prosecutes war criminals.

    Until then, you can STFU about it. DKos had a post a day about this stuff when The Shrub was in office. Now?

    I guess drone murders and ass-rape of the 4th amendment is just a-ok as long as it's a "progressive" doing it.

    Hypocrites.

    •  that about sums it up (0+ / 0-)

      sometimes I wonder, where's the frigging outrage?

      It's like Orwell's Animal Farm.

      As for the lack of prosecution, I read a theory that each president "excuses" the former's crimes so as to avoid prosecution himself in the future.

      She said that she was working for the ABC News
      It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use

      by Paolo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 01:10:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's so very confusing. Does HRW get prosecuted.. (0+ / 0-)

    for letting this classified information out? Gaddafi was a Bad Guy under the Obama Administration, so the information is good for us to have. But providing information about Bush Administration war crimes is generally a prosecutable offense. It's very confusing. Maybe they'll thread the needle by aggressively prosecuting HRW, then dropping most of the charges after a few years of hellish, bank account-draining litigation.

  •  Not to be missed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, cosette, OLinda, 417els

    Jennifer Granholm DNC Speech Democratic National


    Jennifer Mulhern Granholm (born February 5, 1959) is a Canadian-born American politician, educator, author and political commentator who served as Attorney General and 47th Governor of the U.S. state of Michigan. A member of the Democratic Party, Granholm became Michigan's first female governor on January 1, 2003, when she succeeded Governor John Engler. Granholm was re-elected on November 7, 2006, and was sworn in for her second and, due to term limits, final term on January 1, 2007.
    https://www.youtube.com/...

    It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision. ~ Helen Keller

    by Pam from Calif on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 12:05:10 AM PDT

  •  us tortured detainees (0+ / 0-)

    tell me something i didn't know.

  •  Proud to be a Green today. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Dead Man

    Jill Stein doesn't seem to be the type of person that would praise something in a speech than take it away with a "Grand Bargain". ie. Middle-class security.

    I don't think she pick a retired civil servant like Alan Simpson to solve our most pressing problems.

    You'd get less weird crap like that with Jill Stein.
    Vote Green.

    "...on the (catch a) human network. Cisco."

    by hoplite9 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 12:53:06 AM PDT

    •  are you allowed to post that on DKos? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PorridgeGun

      "Vote Green"?

      I thought anything less than promoting the Dems gets one banned these days ;)

      She said that she was working for the ABC News
      It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use

      by Paolo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 01:11:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  DNC beat NFL season-opening ratings (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.npr.org/...

    NEW YORK (AP) — The second night of the Democratic National Convention beat the Republicans in television ratings and, perhaps more impressively, beat pro football.

    An estimated 25.1 million people watched the convention between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m. on Wednesday, when former President Bill Clinton delivered an impassioned nomination speech for President Barack Obama, the Nielsen ratings company said.

    During that hour, just over 20 million people were watching the second half of the Dallas Cowboys' season-opening victory over the New York Giants. Faced with competition from Clinton, ratings for football's first game were down from the past two years.

    The second night of the GOP convention in Tampa, Fla., last week, featuring vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan, was seen by 21.9 million people, Nielsen said Thursday.

    Democratic convention ratings held up well compared to 2008, when interest was particularly high. The Democrats had a four-day convention then, with 25.9 million viewers on the second day and 24 million on the third. None of those nights faced competition from pro football.

    And, Honey Boo Boo beat Mitt Romney!
  •  From @googlepolitics (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cosette, OLinda

    Interesting...

    https://twitter.com/...

  •  Cheering for Duke Energy tonight? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam

    And all the grandkids of the Duke Energy Man?
    What was that all about?
    My spidey sense tells me that an energy company maybe isn't something that we should embrace/applaud without
    questionning.
    the newstribune
    Can anyone educate us that this is a good or bad company?

  •  Thank God Obama's DoJ allows the CIA to torture (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam

    I feel safe and secure knowing that the president can kill anyone he wants or torture them with impunity, including American citizens.  It's just like living in an exciting, exotic country like Syria!

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 02:41:12 AM PDT

    •  perfect (0+ / 0-)

      that sums it up exactly right dead man.  

      imagine worrying about getting banned on a blog.  like there aren't 5000 others with lockstep group think to go to.  

      i remember lurking here years ago when there was actual debate.  

      power really is intoxicating.  even for the schmucks that think they are on the same team as O and goldman.   too bad O and goldman aren't on your team, progressives.  

      sad really.   i feel so violated and cheated by O.  

      •  So we should all be voting for Nader this election (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW

        right? Because there's absolutely no difference between the Dems and Republicans. Gotcha. So go start your blog to get him on the ballot in all 50 states (or better yet, just Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania) so we can go back to bitching about the Republicans in power rather than the Democrats.

        •  Completely missing the point (0+ / 0-)

          The democrats are just as much a bunch of sheep as the republicans, and not the principled reality-based, issue oriented group they say they are.  There's been barely any pushback against Obama from the left on policies that are Bushian or worse.  And whenever it's brought up here, it's NEVER a good time to illuminate those dark corners of his admin.  Hypocrites!

          NOW SHOWING
          Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
          Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

          by The Dead Man on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 03:55:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I clearly didn't miss the point (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevvboy, JeffW

            You think that the Dems are the same as the Republicans, which is exactly what I wrote-- that you think they're the same, so we should be voting for Nader.

            There's been plenty of push back, but at the end of the day, Obama represents my views on policy a hell of a lot more than Romney does, so Iám going to vote for him despite having plenty of reasons to be disappointed in some of the things he's done. What is your proposal to change things other than pissing in everybody's Cheerios and bitching on a blog?

  •  pithy (0+ / 0-)

    doesn't everyone have a blog already?

    i'll start a second.   like the housing bubble.  2 blogs for everyone.

    obama/goldman V. romney/bain

    there is a difference people.  really.  you gotta believe.   hope and change.  

    meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  

    O is caligula to W's claudius.  

    i can hardly wait until NERO?  i wonder who it will be.  chelsea or bush twins........?

  •  Question: Why does the Presidents humbling (0+ / 0-)

    confession, and genuine reflection of his spirituality,that he understands what Lincoln meant about the job driving him to his knees at times because there was no where else to go provoke the RW to kick him in the ass when the expect to kiss their seated fannies after moralizing how we should respect their puffed up piety?

    Just wonderin'

    "I'll press your flesh, you dimwitted sumbitch! " -Pappy O'Daniel

    by jakewaters on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 04:25:48 AM PDT

  •  The Sarah has spoken (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam

    on Fox News:

    PALIN: I think he diminished himself by even mentioning my name. How does he even know my name? I mean, aren't these guys supposed to be these bigwig elites who don't waste their time on the little people like me? Me representing the average American? Yeah, I did say in Alaska you can see Russia from our landbase, and I was making the point that we are strategically located on the globe .... So it's funny that he would take a little potshot like that, but, uh, it's funny he even knows my name.
    Finally, she and I are in COMPLETE agreement about something.

    Still enjoying my stimulus package.

    by Kevvboy on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 04:27:12 AM PDT

  •  Bush Confessed to Three Tortures (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam
    Former President Bush similarly declared in his memoirs that only three detainees in CIA custody were waterboarded.

    The US is therefore obligated to arrest Bush and charge him with those three torture crimes to which he's unmistakably confessed. Then investigate them and the rest of the crimes we've heard about. And the crimes we haven't heard about, but that the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard know about but have suppressed.

    Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Gonzales, Mukasey, and hundreds - maybe thousands - of other heinous criminals should be investigated, arrested, tried, convicted, and thrown in our jails for decades, probably forever. While there they can be questioned until they die about the other crimes we've heard about.

    Or we can just say "Forward", and do these crimes all over again. Probably right now, as you're reading this.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 05:14:32 AM PDT

    •  Listen, we can't just go questioning these... (0+ / 0-)

      folks willy nilly. There are procedures that must be followed. That's why the administration spent three years running out the clock carefully contemplating what it would be like to interrogate these people and discover the truth. You didn't spend the time contemplating it, they did. And they seem to have come to the conclusion that it would be very uncomfortable, and likely not worth all the trouble. I think we should trust the President and DOJ on that. Because Lily Ledbetter.

  •  forward (0+ / 0-)

    julian assange will hang when Obama gets his hands on him.  

    that is how he rolls.  

    amerikan empire,  crumbling fast.   completely hopeless, but glad it ain't that serious.  

    last i looked moscow is still there after they collapsed.  

    we need a gorby and have 2 caligula's running for pres.  

  •  "Free to collect lecture fees..." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2020adam

    Yeah, I guess.

    And the Obama administration will be free to continue violating the law by not prosecuting. I'm so over the people hating on Bush for this shit, and completely giving a pass to Obama for his part.

    It is a violation of international law for an administration, with evidence of former officials involvement in torture, war crimes, etc., to not prosecute those officials.

    Never be deceived that the rich will permit you to vote away their wealth. - Lucy Parsons

    by cruz on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 05:49:51 AM PDT

    •  so correct (0+ / 0-)

      and if you say anything else like this again i will tell mommy or hr you or call homeland security on you.   or whatever the bootlickers do.  

      there is NO difference between left and right.  

      in 80s the left sold out to corps.  and the right went all in on debt issuance raygunomics.  

      they are totally the same now.  gods guns and gays rhetoric is only difference.   nothing else.  

      yea,  ill vote O because of the god and gays and abortion crap the righties like,  but O is the same corporate militaristic puppet like W was.  

  •  Sickening- (0+ / 0-)
    Meanwhile, the men and women who ordered torture remain free to collect their lecture fees and take their book tours.
    What they ought to be collecting is time behind bars!

    "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

    by lyvwyr101 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 01:33:15 PM PDT

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