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The Daily Caller has a piece called Ten reasons why even liberals should hate Obamacare which was put out 3 days ago, and I'm seeing it pop up in cut an paste form in various Facebook threads.

We need point-by-point debunking or rebuttals for it. Go below the orange popcorn symbol for what we need to debunk or have rebuttals for.

Ten reasons why even liberals should hate Obamacare

So much attention has been paid to the freedoms we’ll be losing under Obamacare (courtesy of Chief Justice Roberts) that we’ve tended to overlook the many other reasons to oppose the law — reasons that should make even liberals hate the legislation.

1.) Health insurance will cost more than it would have without Obamacare. That shouldn’t be surprising considering the long list of services (including obesity and domestic violence screening and counseling) that insurance companies will be required to provide for “free” and considering that insurance companies will be required to accept all applicants, regardless of how ill they are. However, our math-challenged president once claimed that Obamacare will reduce premiums by “as much as 3,000%” (meaning that insurance companies will start paying people to stay insured) and still insists it will reduce premiums for a family of four by “as much as $2,300.” Even one of Obamacare’s designers, Jonathan Gruber, is telling states to expect that premiums for individual policies will be 30% more by 2016 than they would have been without Obamacare (PriceWaterhouseCoopers has projected a 47% increase).

The data shows otherwise. US health spending grew more slowly in the past couple of years—at rates of 3.8 percent and 3.9 percent, respectively—than in any other years during the fifty-one-year history of the National Health Expenditure Accounts.

Between 2004 and 2010, many small business owners were faced with rate increases routinely exceeding 20 percent – as high as 40 percent in 2009. Most small business owners saw their rate increases are a lot lower than they use to be in the 2004-2010 – and many small business owners have seen their rates held flat or even cut.

We have already seen a drop into rise of healthcare costs compared to the runaway cost of health in prior years since the first parts of the healthcare reform law took effect, and the most effective parts of "Obamacare" such as the requirment that everyone have insurance haven't even kicked in. That is where most of the heaving lifting in driving DOWN healthcare costs will have an effect.

Thanks to "Obamacare" already 3.1 million more young adults have health insurance on their parent’s plan, three million seniors have received a 50 percent discount on their prescription drugs, and millions of Americans now have access to no-cost preventive services to help them stay healthy.

Reforms included in Obamacare to make preventive services available without a co-pay could help encourage more people to visit their doctors before a serious (and expensive) problem arises.


Surveys of America’s major health insurance companies uniformly reported an uptick in doctors visits over the past year. Tenet Healthcare Corp. said outpatient visits were up 5.3 percent over the last year, UnitedHealth Group, Wellpoint and Aetna all flagged upticks in outpatient use on recent earnings calls, with WellPoint and Aetna pointing to doctor services as well.

2.) If you like your current health insurance plan, good luck keeping it. With employers penalized if they offer too generous an insurance plan, a plan not meeting government-prescribed minimum requirements, or a plan that the government deems unaffordable by certain employees, and with insurance costs skyrocketing, employers will have to adjust what coverage they provide and how much of the cost their employees share.

3.) Obamacare won’t fulfill President Obama’s goal of decreasing how much our nation spends on healthcare. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) recently estimated that national health care spending will increase from 16.8% of gross domestic product in 2010 (the latest year for which statistics are available) to about 26% by 2037.

4.) Federal spending on healthcare will crowd out spending for other purposes (such as for education and defense). The CBO has projected that healthcare spending will be 24.5% of federal non-interest spending in 2012 and 39.8% in 2037.

5.) Obamacare will cost people jobs. Chris Conover has estimated for Forbes that one million or more jobs, mainly for lower-wage earners, will be lost because of the additional taxes and higher employment costs imposed by Obamacare.

6.) The tax credit (up to 98% of the cost of a policy) to help people purchase health insurance is distributed unfairly. You can’t get a credit if you’re too poor, your (or your spouse’s) employer provides affordable individual coverage (but not affordable family coverage that you need), or the exchange selling insurance in your state was established by the federal government instead of the state. Obamacare actually discourages average Americans from working for an employer who offers health insurance. For example, assume that two individuals each have skills worth $30,000 a year. An employer who provides insurance will deduct the cost of the insurance from the $30,000. By contrast, an employer not providing insurance will pay the $30,000, and the employee will be entitled to a tax credit (worth more than $10,000 for family coverage) in addition to the $30,000.

7.) People will be penalized for marrying or earning additional income. As little as $1 of extra income (maybe from a child’s illegal lemonade stand) can reduce the tax credit for purchasing health insurance by more than $100 or disqualify an individual from a credit worth more than $10,000. Individuals living together can lose most or all of their credit if they marry. Two individuals, each with $200,000 of income, could have to pay an additional $5,700 (Obamacare’s new Medicare tax on the “rich”) if they marry (the tax applies to individuals with more than $200,000 of income and married individuals with more than $250,000 of income).

8.) Obamacare will stifle the innovation needed to improve people’s health and prolong their lives. Obamacare’s comparative effectiveness review process will increase the cost of developing drugs and medical devices, delay the introduction of new drugs and devices, and discourage research and development projects by increasing the risk that a drug or device will be rejected because the government decides that another drug or device is better. Obamacare’s tax on the proceeds (not just profits) from sales of medical devices is expected to reduce research and development on medical devices by billions of dollars each year.

9.) Health care will be provided by large businesses. Obamacare has already encouraged businesses to merge and physicians to become hospital employees to cope with the law’s imposition of smaller profit margins and high compliance costs. These bigger businesses have been using their market power to charge higher prices for care. There’s no reason to believe that they’re providing better care.

10.) Just saying that everyone will have health insurance and quality care doesn’t make it so. The CBO has estimated that Obamacare will leave 30 million individuals uninsured. Millions of those given insurance will be thrown into Medicaid, which provides poorer care than private insurance, mainly because many doctors refuse to treat people on Medicaid and states skimp on coverage. Paying for a good chunk of Obamacare by cutting payments to doctors and hospitals treating Medicare patients is bound to adversely affect the quality of care provided to Medicare beneficiaries. We already have a shortage of doctors (130,600 by 2025 according to the American Medical Colleges). We’re not likely to get the best people to become doctors by reducing their pay and limiting their freedom to practice what they believe is best for their patients.

At this month’s Democratic National Convention, Vice President Biden accused Republicans of “betting against the American people.” But it is he and his fellow Democrats who have no faith in the American people. Instead of making free market reforms to unleash the genius of Americans to come up with innovative ways to improve health care and make it more affordable, President Obama and his fellow Democrats have bet that politicians and bureaucrats are best able to design our healthcare system. Their hubris would be laughable if the consequences for our country weren’t so dire.

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Let's crowdsource this. Please post rebuttals and the counter arguments below. Even if you just do one of the points, that would be a great help.

1:37 PM PT: Here is the rough rebuttal of point #1


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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (14+ / 0-)

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

    by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 12:54:26 PM PDT

  •  P0int #1 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nica24, JamieG from Md, Lujane, Amber6541

    "1.) Health insurance will cost more than it would have without Obamacare."

    The data shows otherwise (need link to the data, anyone have it). We have already seen a drop into rise of healthcare costs compared to the runaway cost of health in recent years since the first parts of the healthcare reform law took effect, and the most effective parts of "Obamacare" such as the requirment that everyone have insurance haven't even kicked in. That is where most of the heaving lifting in driving DOWN healthcare costs will have an effect.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

    by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:01:41 PM PDT

    •  Cont. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nica24, JamieG from Md, Lujane, Amber6541

      Thanks to "Obamacare" 3.1 million more young adults have health insurance on their parent’s plan, three million seniors have received a 50 percent discount on their prescription drugs, and millions of Americans now have access to no-cost preventive services to help them stay healthy.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:04:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Point #1 cont (4+ / 0-)

      Between 2004 and 2010, many small business owners were faced with rate increases routinely exceeding 20 percent – as high as 40 percent in 2009. (need source)

      Most small business owners saw their rate increases are a lot lower than they use to be in the 2004-2010 – and many small business owners have seen their rates held flat or even cut.  (need source)

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:13:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We are a perfect example. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541

        We own two bicycle stores, employing about 30 people, some full time and some part time.  We pay for health insurance for our full-timers (all the part-timers are students who are covered under their parents' plans) and prior to Obamacares our insurance went up 26% one year and nearly 35% the next.  We ended up getting higher deductibles and worse prescription coverage to keep the costs down.

        This year our costs have gone down by about $50 per person and we were able to lower the deductible from $2500 to $1250 while getting much better prescription coverage.  Plus we get a tax credit!  

        That's only one of the reasons I'm voting for Obama again with pleasure.

    •  Ok, here is some more meat for #1 (4+ / 0-)

      National health expenditures — the total amount America spends on health care, combining both the public and private spheres — grew only 3.8 percent in May, according to a new CSHS report. That’s down from 4.2 percent in April, and about as low a growth rate as the country’s seen in the last 20 years. Furthermore, total health care expenditures have stabilized at around 18 percent of the economy since 2009.

      http://thinkprogress.org/...

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:19:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  More (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JamieG from Md, emmasnacker, Lujane

        Reforms included in Obamacare to make preventive services available without a co-pay could help encourage more people to visit their doctors before a serious (and expensive) problem arises.

        Surveys of America’s major health insurance companies uniformly reported an uptick in doctors visits over the past year. Tenet Healthcare Corp. said outpatient visits were up 5.3 percent over the last year, UnitedHealth Group, Wellpoint and Aetna all flagged upticks in outpatient use on recent earnings calls, with WellPoint and Aetna pointing to doctor services as well.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

        by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:25:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Data sources (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JamieG from Md, emmasnacker, Lujane

        Growth In US Health Spending Remained Slow In 2010; Health Share Of Gross Domestic Product Was Unchanged From 2009

        http://content.healthaffairs.org/...

        US health spending grew more slowly in 2009 and 2010—at rates of 3.8 percent and 3.9 percent, respectively—than in any other years during the fifty-one-year history of the National Health Expenditure Accounts.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

        by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:32:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama cares about everyone; GOP doesn't (5+ / 0-)

    GOP cares only about their 'half' of the country.

    Debunked!!

    P.S. Brain research shows that stories that pull on the heartstrings, the viscera are vastly more effective than factual information. Even worse, by repeating the GOP talking points (even when refuting them) it does damage by reinforcing the brain circuits that are holding the wrong information.

    Better to take it to a whole NEW level.

    Re-frame.

  •  I CAN offer this in relation to #5, above. (8+ / 0-)

    My next door neighbor works for United Healthcare as an auditor. When Obamacare was going through various Congressional machinations, she and other employees were asked to write letters AGAINST it.

    NOW, and for the last number of months, they are doing a LOT of hiring. In fact, they have been hiring since it passed.

    So for every job they claim they will lose because of Obamacare, more jobs will be added in the industry themselves and these are likely better paying jobs WITH better insurance, ironically.

    This entire list is stinky, but there's an area worth investigating. I bet this trend is true in ALL health insurance companies across the board.

    202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

    by cany on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:10:41 PM PDT

    •  That should be industry itself... sheesh. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane

      202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

      by cany on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 05:33:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not an expert, but I'd say this is desperation (5+ / 0-)

    Period. Most people take breathless FB postings with a grain of salt these days.

    People are already starting to support Obamacare more and more, and even Mitt Romney wanted to take credit for it the other day.

    Health Care Reform is not complete. Obamacare is a scaffolding on which to complete further reforms.
    If there's a problem, they can and will fix it.

    Health care was becoming untenable before Obamacare, now we have a structure to fix it.

    The medical loss ratio provision makes certain that money goes to the patients' care rather than to the company profits/ceo compensation, lobbying, etc.
    It's up to the states to regulate gouging and inadequate care by the ins. cos.
    A lot of the work of reform, like the exchanges, have to take place at the state level.
    Yes, there will be a battle with "red states" especially, over medicaid. That would be happening with or without Obamacare.
    I'll let the experts address the specifics.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:13:02 PM PDT

  •  Since Everyone Will Now Be Buying Ins or Paying (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lestatdelc, Catte Nappe, Amber6541

    a tax penalty, a lot of younger healthier people are going to be buying insurance and not using it very much. The high spending years are the senior years and now we'll have more people paying for the risk but not drawing heavily on it.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:16:43 PM PDT

  •  If the private market can't handle standards, (6+ / 0-)

    then we'll just have to open Medicare to all comers and, at the same time, make it no longer discriminatory as to age.
    If insurance middlemen aren't content with a guaranteed overhead of 20%, then we should go to the public version with 7% administrative costs.
    There's no point refuting projections.

    We organize governments to provide benefits and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:25:51 PM PDT

  •  Start with JUNK #1 (3+ / 0-)

    Preventative care saves money. Any fool knows that. Whether it saves in 10 years or saves medicare in the end, we all save...

    Of course, for those who think Romney will win and Medicare will end, I guess we don't care.

  •  asdf (6+ / 0-)
    We’re not likely to get the best people to become doctors by reducing their pay and limiting their freedom to practice what they believe is best for their patients.
    This claim .... isn't that what private insurance companies do already?  My doc complains about this all the time, regarding claims and not allowing certain procedures.

    "Mitt Romney has more positions than the Kama Sutra." -- me "Social justice is love, made public." -- Cornel West

    by billlaurelMD on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 01:55:21 PM PDT

  •  I can't find any source from CBO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    to back up the 26% of GDP on healthcare spending in 2037. Can anyone find it?

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Want to end too big to fail banks? Then move your money and they will no longer be too big.

    by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 02:07:46 PM PDT

  •  The single most powerful debunks I know of (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Amber6541

    is the Harvard study that says almost 50,000 lives a year are lost due to Lack of Care. If we're willing to go to endless war in multiple nations to avenge 3,000 deaths on 9/11, you would think that 17 times that number of preventable deaths annually would be worth fighting for as well.

    The second point is that we are the only country to have people go bankrupt because they can't afford healthcare when they need it, even when they have insurance.

    The ACA is far from perfect but it's the first effort made to save the lives and the financial health of EVERYONE in the country when illness or accident strikes. In contrast the Republicans have offered nothing. Their plan is no plan and the deaths and bankruptcies continue unabated.

    “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR

    by Phoebe Loosinhouse on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 02:19:21 PM PDT

  •  No, we don't (4+ / 0-)

    Those kinds of lists are intended to get you iled up and busting your butt to debunk them. If you simply must respond, try some positive counterpoints.

    Top 10 reasons to love Obamacare

    10 Reasons Most People Like Obamacare Once They Know What's Really In It

    And, why conservatives should love it

    Here are five reasons conservatives should stop worrying and learn to love Obamacare.

    First, Obamacare’s most controversial provision, the so-called individual mandate, comes not from left-wing eggheads but the right-wing Heritage Foundation, which popularized the idea as a key to shoring up health insurance in the 1980s and 1990s.

    Second, Obamacare promotes individual responsibility — not government dependency.
    Third, Obamacare keeps the private sector in charge
    Fourth, Obamacare harnesses market forces. Individuals and employers will have the new option of buying insurance through state-operated exchanges.
    Fifth, Obamacare actually helps to unleash the entrepreneurial spirit. Fear of losing employer-provided health care inhibits countless Americans — especially those with preexisting conditions — from starting their own businesses or even switching jobs.
    http://articles.nydailynews.com/...

    "...you can’t find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don’t open. I don’t know why they don’t do that. It’s a real problem." Mitt Romney

    by Catte Nappe on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 02:33:43 PM PDT

  •  I don't think there's enough bandwith to debunk (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lestatdelc

    all the spew from Daily Caller, also what's the point? It's like arguing with an idiot, even if you win, you're not proving much.

    To conservatives, liberals are stupid. To Liberals, conservatives are insane. So..."Bipartisanship" is what happens when a lunatic and a moron find common ground.

    by PBJ Diddy on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 02:47:46 PM PDT

  •  No. 1 is bunk (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lestatdelc, David54, Amber6541

    so I didn't bother to read the rest of them.

    We had a choice between retaining our grandfathered, nonACA compliant policy or switching to a new, ACA compliant one.

    Mr. elmo crunched the numbers. It wasn't even close. We switched.

    He got a screening colonoscopy free; that would have cost us several thousand dollars on our old policy. And our daughter's annual physical was also free, saving several hundred dollars there.

    Then we got a $300 refund from our insurer in August, due to the 80 percent premium/payout requirement.

    Sorry, Daily Caller. Only liberals who can't do simple arithmetic should hate Obamacare.

    I am really looking forward to 2014 when the full provisions of the ACA kick in. Then we'll be able to shop around and switch insurers if we find a better deal. We've been continuously insured with this same insurer for 20 plus years, and we've always been afraid to switch just in case one of us should develop some illness right after switching, and worry about whether it would be covered.

    After 2014, we won't have to worry about this. Insurers will have to compete for our business on a level playing field.

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