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Tonight, two more have died to gun violence.


Authorities say two Topeka police officers were killed after exchanging gunfire with another person outside a grocery store.  The shooting suspect left the scene and is still at large.

Police said Cpl. David Gogian, 50, and Officer Jeff Atherly, 29, died Sunday evening at an area hospital from apparent gunshot wounds to the head.

The officers were responding to a report of a suspicious vehicle about 6:10 p.m. outside the Dillons grocery store located at Southwest Huntoon and Southwest Lane streets.

The killer is on the loose at this moment.

There are a few things about this; a few weeks ago, I posted a diary assailing the argument that "knives" were as dangerous as guns.   Since then, we've had another massacre, and several more serious gun attacks.   Most of these are held by people who have either legally registered a weapon or bought through gun shows.

I am someone who believes heavily in the 2nd amendment; I have owned a gun - though I do not have one in my home for my children, and I have taken hunter safety, etc.   I believe that the commandments of safe gun ownership are important and more people should know them.  (The basics: always assume a gun is loaded, never point a gun at something you don't want to kill; always empty a gun before storing it; etc.)  

What has happened since, though is that we have seen a rise again in the gun crowd of advocating "there should be MORE guns!" "If X was armed, this wouldn't happen!"

“I wish to God she had an M-4 in her office locked up so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands but she takes him out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,” Gohmert said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.”
And so on.

Tonight, against a regular gun, with a regular speed of shot, two trained police officers who were carrying weapons were murdered by a crazy person.   No law will necessarily stop someone from doing something terrible.   But if two trained and practiced police officers cannot stop an armed assailant from doing something terrible, then where oh where do conservatives give the idea that handing a school administrator an uzi would somehow make them an incredible marxman to allow them to have a chance against someone with a semi-automatic weapon?   In that situation, you're talking about someone not shooting at a slow rate, but a quick shot; and with easy conversion kits they can absolutely rain death at a rate of multiple bullets per second.

We get asked repeatedly "now is not the time to discuss this, let's not politicize this tragedy"

Can I say something?   Maybe Obama had a strategy ready after Aurora.  And then, you know, the Sikh Temple slaughter happened, and so there needed to be another waiting period.  And then this happened.

If we put up with waiting periods for every mass slaughter, we might not ever have a policy.  

I have lived on a farm, and I value the right to keep a shotgun; for people who have lived the rural life, a gun is often a tool, respected, well kept and used for the right purpose.

But no one goes deer hunting with a semi-automatic.
No one shoots birds with an AR-15.
There isn't a single farmer who would put down a diseased animal with an uzi.
I've killed a few trapped possums, I can't think of any time I ever needed a 30 bullet clip.
I once killed a rattlesnake.   I didn't need to put 11 holes in it.

People say: "ban guns, and only bad guys have guns".   Here's the reality: ban guns, and you significantly lower the profitability of a weapon, and the manufacturer stops making it.  

Stop the sale of ammo on the internet.   Stop gun shows.

It's OK.  I'm sure it's prohibitively expensive.

Never mind.  I can get a 20 round clip for $6.

Or, I guess I could just go grab an AR-15 and convert it to a fully automatic.  It's got to be spendy, right?

$20?   Such a deal.

This week, 28 people in Connecticut died.   The Republican can argue all he wants that if they had a gun, they'd be saved.

Tonight in Topeka, KS, home of the non-concealed carry (you can wear a gun on your hip in a holster here in Kansas, really), two police officers were gunned down.

I want to hear again how great handing average people guns is going to save them from the $27 spending spree it takes for someone to get 20 bullets and a clip for their now-automatic weapon.

Lives, it seems, are cheap.

And before I hear the rant: "there are so many laws on the books, enforce them".   Great.   So, can I get a Republican to provide more money for the ATF, or to propose local taxes and support for more police officers?   Get more money into the court systems?   Oh wait, that would take taxes.   And you're concerned this home schooled child didn't get his autism meds?   But all those cuts in mental health care, those sure have worked out for you, haven't they?  

Oh well.  I guess we can just wring our hands.   Praise the lord and pass the ammo.

Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 10:47 PM PT: UPDATE:  

Police have now raided the suspect's apartment and come up empty.. films were left playing.. the building is still surrounded while they hunt the suspect down.

12:14 AM PT: Manhunt enters 8th hour.   Police as well as state agents are now at a building/house on 3rd and Western.   Reports are of glass breaking and four people being ushered out.

12:20 AM PT: SWAT teams and agents are now onsite behind police cars and they are reterming this a stand off.   Because of a prior report of a "stand off" at his house which ended up an empty apartment, I'm not relabeling yet.  ...

2:51 AM PT: Update: at 4:40AM CST, KBI and others are now on the scene in armored vehicles at 3rd and SW Western.   This is now being broadcast as a seige type event.  Meadows Elementary, very near by, is on standby for if there will be school.

2:59 AM PT: Police have broken out a PA system and are trying to negotiate inside the house.   Elementary is now on full standby for the morning.   Streets have been closed on all four directions from house.

3:11 AM PT: KBI is announcing over a loudspeaker, "David, we have the house surrounded".   There are now several twitter feeds, a good one is here:

3:20 AM PT: Gunshots fired.. 4, 5.. they keep coming, several gunshots going off..

3:50 AM PT: After the gunfire, a man exited the building; but it was not the one they are seeking.  Police are on the PA informing David they "know he is in there" and other people who have exited the building have told him so "We are not leaving, you are under arrest"  "You will not be harmed if you exit with your hands up".  SWAT is now on site, and the area has been zoned off, with that being extended.   The schoolday for Meadows Elementary is now in deep question, if this does not resolve very quickly...

SWAT has driven to the porch, they are advising they will enter the building at 6AM CST if he does not come out; the street has been cleared.  

The KBI Vehicle and Swat are now basically touching the structure; the building is completely surrounded.

6:09AM: four loud bangs, no real flash, maybe tear gas?  or a flash bang that can't be seen easily?  Going off in or near the house..

4:18 AM PT: 6:16:  Police Are Yelling in "We know you're hurt".. he is apparently self-injured by not fatally so.. police dogs are entering the building

4:23 AM PT: Suspect is apparently in custody; he's being moved as SWAT and a medic(?) appear to check him over, self injured.. not sure how serious

4:24 AM PT: Ambulances on the scene, unsure of how seriously injured suspect is.

4:28 AM PT: Prisoner was loaded into the ambulance.   He was not moving and was carried by officers into the ambulance via stretcher.  Ambulance left the scene at ~6:31

Credits for a lot of Info:   Justin Surrency (Twitter), Aly Van Dyke (Twitter) and my two good friends in Topeka.  Without them I would have way less info as our news media kind of shuts down overnight.

4:57 AM PT: Suspect has coded; breathing has stopped; has gunshot in the chest to the left side, unsure of any more details

5:49 AM PT: From the Topeka capital Journal:

The suspect in the shooting deaths of two Topeka police officers appears to be apprehended, taken code blue to a local hospital following an hours long stake out and a brief shoot out in central Topeka.

Shortly after 6 a.m. Monday, a body was seen lying face down in the street outside 304 S.W. Western, which law enforcement officers had staked out for hours, calling for the suspect to surrender. The body was loaded into an ambulance and rushed from the scene.

No one could yet confirm that the injured person was David Edward Tiscareno, 22, of Topeka, the lead suspect in the deaths of Cpl. David Gogian, 50, and Officer Jeff Atherly, 29.

However, a Topeka police officer called for “David” to come out of the house, with his hands up, several times before gunshots were heard and the injured person was taken from the house.

9:03 AM PT: Shooter has been pronounced dead.   The house is roped off to check for other weapons and or anything taken from any prior illegal acts (drugs, etc.)


Authorities say a man suspected in the fatal shooting of two Topeka police officers outside a grocery store has died after an armed standoff with law enforcement at a house in the city.

A nearly two-hour standoff in the 300 block of Southwest Western Avenue in Topeka ended Monday morning with police removing the alleged shooter from the home.

Kansas Bureau of Investigation officers and other authorities surrounded the home after receiving a tip, and yelled the suspect's name, believed to be 22-year-old David Edward Tiscareno.

SWAT team officers lobbed tear gas into the home just after 6 a.m. and the suspect came out of the home carrying a gun.

The house in question is roughly 2 blocks from Meadows Elementary School.

Originally posted to tmservo433 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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