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In one of his strongest-worded homilies since he was elected in March, the Argentinean pontiff said Christians who lead “a double life” by giving money to the Church while stealing from the state are sinners who deserve to be punished. The Pope described people engaged in corruption as “whitewashed tombs”, explaining that “they appear beautiful from the outside, but inside they are full of dead bones and putrefaction.” A life based on corruption is “varnished putrefaction”, the Pope said.

On Friday he had strong words for Catholics who grow wealthy from graft and use tainted money to shower their children with gifts and send them to expensive schools.
“Those who take kickbacks have lost their dignity and give their children dirty bread”, he said. Corruption was as much of an addiction as taking drugs — “We might start with a small bribe, but it’s like a drug,” he said. He prayed “that the Lord may change the hearts of those who worship the kickback god”.
The middle class are suffering from an abomination inflicted upon them by whom?

Is the world going down the toilet or is it just the USA?

It is my sincere hope that Pope Francis has food tasters or he may have a short reign.

Fri Apr 24, 2015 at 9:09 AM PT (Anonymous Coward): nice articles
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Who is the most corrupt?

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  •  Tip Jar (171+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Farugia, markthshark, caul, marina, lotlizard, marykk, viral, banjolele, grimjc, carpunder, Lawrence, Wolf10, Mentatmark, SneakySnu, samddobermann, white blitz, myrmecia gulosa, CwV, Hammerhand, Radical Faith, Kristina40, luckylizard, pioneer111, Kingsmeg, wintergreen8694, TFinSF, TomP, MartyM, GeorgeXVIII, Turbonerd, concernedamerican, Buckeye Nut Schell, Wee Mama, Smoh, hlsmlane, p gorden lippy, citizenx, LSmith, karmsy, quinn, Debby, enemy of the people, Cassandra Waites, Raggedy Ann, harlinchi, politik, Habitat Vic, Texknight, jbsoul, leeleedee, jazzizbest, commonmass, melo, ZedMont, buckstop, AllisonInSeattle, mozartssister, avsp, Sylv, Cronesense, zozie, HeyMikey, drdana, flavor411, sawgrass727, Yoshimi, simple serf, Ahianne, Nowhere Man, Timaeus, karlpk, Fury, Vita Brevis, zerelda, maybeeso in michigan, Front Toward Enemy, zukesgirl64, lexalou, Liberal Thinking, hubcap, ceebs, TX Unmuzzled, sobermom, nervousnellie, penguins4peace, Noisy Democrat, GDbot, wader, Norm in Chicago, countwebb, jfromga, Involuntary Exile, bsmechanic, Overseas, pixxer, pvasileff, No one gets out alive, Dem Beans, TracieLynn, elwior, Philpm, jeturek, chantedor, Powered Grace, vmibran, cotterperson, exNYinTX, middleagedhousewife, Australian2, Shockwave, Ice Blue, Youffraita, radarlady, Publius2008, barbwires, Dianna, steamed rice, trumpeter, FindingMyVoice, Brooke In Seattle, spooks51, northerntier, RunawayRose, roses, ItsaMathJoke, The Jester, Nulwee, NJpeach, koNko, cardboardurinal, SuWho, Nica24, wilderness voice, Lefty Coaster, Arahahex, J M F, poligirl, peagreen, Jim P, greengemini, fbiots, PinHole, camlbacker, MKinTN, NBBooks, absdoggy, EdSF, dotsright, SaintC, bfitzinAR, Danno11, Matt Z, Betty Pinson, GAS, BachFan, Cofcos, War on Error, historys mysteries, glitterscale, Chi, Luma, terabytes, BlackSheep1, codairem, i saw an old tree today, emyrphe, FarWestGirl, cspivey, tofumagoo, Eikyu Saha, eeff

    "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, U.S. Attorney General.

    by Mr SeeMore on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 12:29:46 AM PST

  •  Wondering (70+ / 0-)

    who he had in mind when he gave this homily.

    Pretty strong words.  I too wonder if he will live a long life.  I read an article that in America, the folks who are bent on condemning all of those 'other' people (gays, women who choose abortion or birth control, etc) are upset that this Pope is throwing them under the bus.  Telling them that they should not judge.

    Funny, I always thought that was one of Jesus' tenants - though shall not judge.

    Interesting to watch this unfold.

  •  This pope is interesting but. . . (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    samddobermann, CwV, LI Mike, Fishtroller01

    . . .I still don't give a ratsass what his opinion is on a subject. I don't care what any so called "holy man" has to say about anything. They don't speak to God, though many will tell you otherwise. They're just a bunch of old phony bastards. This Pope is less repulsive than previous Popes, but he still dresses in his phony rags with his phony pointed hat and PRETENDS.

    I've given up childish things.

    •  Is there a need for such a comment here? (66+ / 0-)

      I am an atheist raised as a Jew.

      If a religious person inflicts his or her views on me, I am ready to argue; I will also write diaries and tweet about my atheism.  I don't hide it?

      But is there a need to pee in someone else's pool?

      The Pope can do a lot of harm or a lot of good. I don't believe and you don't believe, but many people do. And some of them will be influenced by what Francis says, just as some were influenced by what Benedict said and all the way back.

      I sometimes view religion as a crutch; many other atheists also say this. But if you remove someone's crutch, they may fall.

      •  It's not much of a crutch... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        matador, fly, Fishtroller01, Chi

        ...if one man stating his opinion crushes it.   Such a crutch could not last out a day.  

        As many people as there are tottering on a failing crutch that will crumble at a hint of truth, there are people who feel trapped in the stale air of religion and who long for the fresh wind of truth.

        Matador does not have the responsibility to save souls.  This is a blog for sharing opinions.   If a person is emotionally fragile and not able to cope with hearing a vigorous debate on the subject, then DKOS may not be the right place, because Opinions R Us.

      •  I have ancestors that were persecuted (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fishtroller01, Norm in Chicago, Chi

        That were yanked from their beds and drawn and quartered. The quartering was in the sign of the cross.

        Yes, I must push back against these antiquated ideas that have caused so much harm. The religious must be told that they are not the only ones or the only ones that matter. Not pushing back leads the religious to think their numbers are far greater than they are which only leads to more persecution of the rest of us.

        Stand up now or fall later.

        •  You think you are the only one to have (7+ / 0-)

          ancestors persecuted? My ancestors were persecuted by aethiests.  Your emotional reasoning only leads to more hate, more strife.

          "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

          by JWK on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 05:57:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  First, it's spelled "atheists" and second, (0+ / 0-)

            just who are you talking about who did the persecuting in the name of atheism?

            •  Communists killed priests, nuns & religious laity (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nica24, Buckeye Nut Schell, emyrphe

              They murdered millions of Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, pagans, animists, and more.  Many of us had relatives who were killed by the atheist Communists in Russia and the old Soviet empire, Eastern Europe, and Asia. Their only crime was refusal to denounce their religious beliefs. And our family members were killed within our or our parents or grandparents living memories, not five hundred years ago. Should we regard you the same way we regard our relatives' murderers because you share their anti-religious views? Should we push back on your beliefs because they have been proven to be extremely dangerous to innocent believers?

              "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

              by Involuntary Exile on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:29:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are equating STATE with religions (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Calamity Jean

                Atheism is not a religion and it's not a political view.

                A couple of countries in the last century decided to run all religions out of town.

                Those examples have absolutely nothing to do with the person you are responding to...they have no responsibility for what communist countries did to their own people.

                THAT SAID, as a Catholic, I know for a fact that Christians have killed far, far more non-believers and heretics and atheists than the other way around. So let's not go there, okay? It can only end in tears.

            •  Sorry, this comment was meant for Matador, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell

              not for you, Fishtroller01. In my haste I posted in the wrong place.

              "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

              by Involuntary Exile on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:32:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I think that your anger is misplaced... (36+ / 0-)

          Nobody alive today, "yanked (your ancestors) from their beds and (they were) drawn and quartered."  I fully recognize the horrors caused by organized religion throughout the centuries but also know that there have been atrocities where no religion was present as well.  Cruel and self serving leaders manipulate the masses into whatever they wish them to do by whatever means available.  Pitting religious people versus nonreligious people is unnecessary.  We all have common goals and this Pope, I believe is bringing those common goals to light.

          Religion, especially here in the USA, has been taken over by a manipulative group of self intrested, right wing, opportunists.  It has happened many times in the past and, unfortunately, it will most likely continue to happen in the future.  This happens when cowards and unsavory characters take advantage of believing people.  They use brain washing techniques.  Most religious people are good people, like you and I, who want to live in a society of good will and trust.  They have been systematically lied to and been taught to fear the "others" and been given the order to "Save" everyone else from eternal damnation.  You have to remember that these people are just people who WANT to do right, WANT to help others and for the most part, they are misguided by a few manipulative people who have self interests at heart.  

          The way to help or save Christians is to teach them what the bible actually says about love and helping one another and about the the danger of worshiping money.  This Pope is trying to do that and if he is successful, there will be a lot more people asking why giving people health care is such an awful thing.  They will start asking why, if we are supposed to be a Christian nation, like so many Tea party and Christian Fundamentalists claim, is it wrong for the government to feed the hungry and give shelter to the homeless.  We could all use that kind of additional support because we all have common goals.  Do not make enemies out of potential allies.  Embrace them and respect each others differences in their belief.

          Renes Descartes looked for the truth and could only find one that he could prove.  He found that the only thing we truly know is that because we could contemplate our own existence, then we must in fact, exist.  Nothing else could be proven.  In that sense, everything beyond that is a choice as to whether to believe or not based on the evidence presented to you, your life experiences and the reasoning of your interpretaions of such.  It is no wonder we all come to different conclusions.  I chose to believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ.  That is my choice, my free will.  You choose to believe what you believe because you trust the evidence before you is conclusive.  I respect that.  

          All of the formal religions of the world believe in helping the poor, healing the sick and feeding the hungry and I believe, so do Humanists.  Lets focus on the values we share.

          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:09:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only way one can teach (0+ / 0-)

            compassion using the bible is to black out most of the book.  Salvation itself as a concept is divisive.

            •  You really are trolling up and down this diary (8+ / 0-)

              aren't you. I went and looked at your comment history and it seems that you are a one hit wonder when it comes to topics and comments.

              Go find a new hobby.

              •  Look at this poster's.... (4+ / 0-)

                ... nom de forum.  And think what "fish" is often a symbol for.

              •  And you seem to be so fascinated by (0+ / 0-)

                my comments that you take the time to look at my history.  Pay attention Yoshimi. There are people on here that do nothing but comment on animals, the environment, etc. etc.  The fact that you continue to call my comments trolling speaks only to your fear and not much else.   Maybe you can learn something from me, but if you think not, then I'll thank you to just move on.

                •  Trolling is when you go looking for a fight... (5+ / 0-)

                  That appears to be what you are doing here and it is against one of the principle rules here at Dkos, "Don't be a Dick!"  Unlike Yoshimi, I do not really care enough about your opinions to look into your background but I do care about your rude, arrogant treatment of the people on this thread.

                  Maybe you can learn something from me
                  I am going to assume that you are a young person who thinks they have unlocked some secret of the universe and has come here to educate all of us old farts who don't know nothin'.  I don't mind confidence and I even respect your courage but you will need to eventually learn that being an asshole to people is never a winning strategy.  You will never get someone to believe anything you say if you say it with a cocky "better-than-you" delivery.  

                  No matter how much you think you know, you will always be surprised when you find out how little it really is.  Have you ever been really sure of something, the outcome of an election or a game of some sort or a fact you absolutely knew you were right about?  We all have.  Well it turns out that sometimes we are wrong about those things.  When it happens, we go back and rack our brains to figure out where our perfect logic went wrong.  Well, it just sometimes does.  You look down on others for what you believe is completely wrong and foolish and then get mad when others do the same thing to you.  It's a maturity thing that hopefully, you will grow out of and learn from.  

                  For now, look at it from a self interest perspective: If you want to influence people in what you perceive to be a positive way, don't be a dick.

                  "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

                  by Buckeye Nut Schell on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 09:20:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  One man's "being a dick" is another man's (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    "I pointed out some truths and you just don't like them."  I have just as much a right to call out the nature of religious ideas and Jesus's claimed morality as anyone else, especially since I once was a believer.  If people want to make claims about the catholic church, the pope or Jesus, that's fine, but I also have a right to counter those ideas. Religious beliefs are not made of glass or deserving of any more respect than any other ideas. And this is not a religious website.

                    I hope you feel better getting all this off your chest in defense of Yoshimi, but you probably are not aware of his history of aggressiveness when it comes to this topic and his focus on me. You may not have observe his trashing of a respected diarist on this site who writes on this topic with full references and footnotes (Betty Clermont).  I do love, however, the total analysis of my character and motives. Now I won't have to pay a professional to do that.

                    It is interesting that when people just go off rudely and arrogantly about the religious right or the political right on here, no one seems to mind or call others dicks about it.  It all depends on your perspective I guess.

                    I am harsh when I discuss Rand Paul too, but again because that is not criticizing religion or its institutions or ideas, it seems to be OK.  

                    If you have an explanation for this, let me know.  In the meantime, I will contemplate why you seem to feel you can trash my character and call me immature and that is apparently is NOT "being a dick". And by the way, I am an "old fart" too, so you've scored another point in the "wrong" column.

                    •  I stated that I assumed you were young as... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Anna Wise

                      my way of giving you the benfit of the doubt.  Usually, it is easier to forgive someone's arrogance and rudness when you envision them being some kid who doesn't know any better.  I stand corrected.

                      My niece lived with us for awhile when she was in middle & high school.  She came home one day and said she had called this other girl fat and the girl got really upset about it.  My niece said, "I don't know why she got mad, she is fat.  It is just a fact.  It's not like she didn't know she was fat."  She is a brilliant young lady but has struggled throughout her life because she has absolutely no social skills whatsoever.

                      Since you are an old fart like me, allow me to ask you a question.  In all your years of discussions on subjects like politics and religion, has anyone ever influenced you to change your view on anything by saying something like:

                      The only way one can teach compassion using the bible is to black out most of the book.
                      Pay attention Yoshimi. ... The fact that you continue to call my comments trolling speaks only to your fear and not much else.   Maybe you can learn something from me, but if you think not, then I'll thank you to just move on.
                      I was making a comment in reference to Matador's comment.  I think I tried to be respectful and since matador recc'd my comment in return, I'll assume he felt it was not that offensive as well.  We were having a respectful conversation and you added a snippy comment to it in response.  Okay, Yoshimi responded something to the effect of picking fights was trollish.  Then, you were what I consider, rude and arrogant.  Telling someone that maybe they can learn something from you is insulting.  We should all be open enough to learn from each other.  Nobody came here to learn from the great fishtroller.  

                      I would love to have a conversation with you about the merits of your beliefs and ideas and the merits of mine.  I'll bet that if we showed each other respect, we would both come away with more knowledge than when we started.  But, respect has to come first.  Two people have to both show it in order to receive it.  If you truly are an old fart as you say, then maybe you can look back on the people who have influenced you and think about how they treated you.  Think about the successful times you have influenced someone else.  Were you nice to them?  

                      I do not know if your intentions here are to persuade others to your opinion or just to criticize other people's beliefs and piss them off.  If it is the first, then it would help if you stated your case in a respectful manner.  If it is the latter, then you are doing just fine and carry on but do not be surprised when people find that behavior rather dickish.

                      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

                      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 11:41:15 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  In answer to your question... yes. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Buckeye Nut Schell

                        It was someone's harsh criticisms of the bible who made me realize that I had better go back and review it by reading it in full.  That person was Thomas Paine (Age of Reason).  

                        I'm not here to negotiate accomodations with religionists. I'm here to comment and give my opinion. If what I say creates a Thomas Paine effect or even a Sam Harris effect (another source of laying it on the line that influenced my thinking) on another person, then fine.  If not, then fine too. I'm not here to proselytize or convert.

                        And you might notice if you re-read this whole comment thread, that Betty Clermont came on with a fully sourced comment and Yoshimi just threw his usual stones from behind the bushes. He never takes her on with sourced facts of his own.  He doesn't deserve to be treated in any other way than I treated him.  

                        As far as the issue of "respect".  I do not respect the catholic church as an institution AT ALL. As far as religious expressions, I only respect them if they have evidence to back them up.  I have noticed that when I point out biblical passages that back up my opinions on the character of Jesus, no one takes them on because if they look it up, they see I am right.  Now that may be uncomfortable to face, but it's not my fault the stuff is in the texts.  Now if you think a person who threatens people with everlasting torture is moral, then go ahead and defend your Jesus, but don't try to cherry pick around the fact that this is exactly what he did.  

                        If you don't like what the "great fishtroller" says, then debate it or ignore it.

                        Sorry, but that's the best I can do for you.

                        •  Okay, I think that was a good starting point... (0+ / 0-)

                          I would love to have a discussion with you about this.

                          I am not a Bible literalist.  I believe in evolution and I also believe in the negative influence of some earnest and some not so earnest translations.  Our language has changed dramatically over the last 400 years and we have had the benefit of a far more relaible process of recording these things than was available for the previous 1600 years.  I know people who have studied the Bible for thier entire lives, who have PhDs in their fields and yet they differ on their understanding of the Book.  If these smart individuals can study this Book for all of their lives and not have a shared understanding of it than who am I to claim that I understand it. I'm not that smart.

                          It was my daughter when she was only 15 who said something so profound that I immediately recognized the truth in it and it changed my perspective for the rest of my life 9so far at least).  She said that she sees the Bible as a self help manual.  "It tells me how to live my life but it doesn't tell me how to tell someone else how to live their life."  I was astounded.  I realized that when I read the Bible, I had love in my heart, I only seen the things Jesus said about love and honor and not judging people and helping the poor and healing the sick and so on.  When people I know with hate in their heart read the Bible, all they talk about is judgement and abominations and Hell and hatred and so on.  It made sense to me at that point.

                          I have simplified the Bible to it's very essence for me.  Jesus was asked how the disciples would know his followers and Jesus replied "If you love one another".  Jesus only gave one commandment, "Love others as I have loved you".  If you do that, all of the other commandments fall in line.  You don't kill someone if you love them.  You don't steal from the or covet their wives and you honor your parents and God by loving others.  That is the secret right there.

                          I respect your beliefs.  I respect Muslims and Jewish people and Hindu and Budhists, etc...  We are all shown evidence in our lives that lead us in one manner of belief or another.  I have no idea if you are right or me or that crazy guy on the street corner in Hollywood.  I only know what I believe and I am happy with that.  I do not believe that a just God would punish his children for being born in the wrong part of the world or being born gay or black or to Muslim parents.  It is about what you do with your life.  We are all given gifts and talents and how we use them to improve the lives of others is the real measure of a persons life.  Is the world a better place because you are in it?  

                          Have a great day FishTroller.  I hope we are leaving this discussion with mutual respect for one another.  I am on my side.

                          "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

                          by Buckeye Nut Schell on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:15:27 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  to Buckeye Nut Schell (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Buckeye Nut Schell, catilinus

                            Today is my first day being able to post on the comments on the Daily Kos.  I've been getting emails and signing petitions for a long time.  One comment (way up there, near the top) got my attention, and I opened an account.  

                            But few can eat only one potato chip, and I continued looking through the comments.

                            Your comments caught my eye.  I appreciate what you say, and almost all of how you say it.

                            After reading it, I decided that you might appreciate what I want to say, I hope so.  It is definitely not offered with any malice!  Just informing.

                            Here's the thing...I'm Jewish.  My Bible doesn't have Jesus in it.  So, if I say "The Bible" without embellishment, and you say "The Bible" we are not talking about the same set of books.

                            When I post about Biblical things, in public forums, I use the phrases "The Hebrew Bible" (or The Torah, depending on the audience) and "The Christian Bible."  It helps keep things clearer, I think.  And I hope, it also doesn't leave anyone feeling like they think I have less respect for their Bible.

                            Clearly, your religion has helped you in myriad ways.  And your Bible, the Christian Bible, is the one that works for you.  I think that is only good, and respect that.

                          •  Thank you Miss Wise... (0+ / 0-)

                            That you are indeed.  

                            Normally, if I had been considerate enough to recognize the wider audience, I would have differentiated by saying the Torah or the New Testament.  My slight was unintentional.

                            I believe that we are all riding on this same rock hurling through space together and we are all trying to figure out why exactly that is.  Some have concluded that it is an amazing chance and others have came to the conclusion that it is more purposeful than that. Why all use what we have learned, what we have experienced and what we can logically deduct from those inputs to determine what and how all that comes together.  I have my beliefs but I have no idea if they are any better or worse than yours so I figure I might as well enjoy life and encourage others to do the same and help them do that in any way that I can.  I have been fascinated with jewish beliefs for a long time and it was only enhanced after I read James Mitchner's "The Source".  

                            My daughter, whose advance reading skills in the fourth grade made the only reading material available to her at her level from the library dozens of holocaust books, wanted to become Jewish for several months until she realized she couldn't eat pepperoni pizza.

                            Welcome aboard Anna, it is a pleasure having you comment here at DailyKos.  I apologize for the slight.

                            "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

                            by Buckeye Nut Schell on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 01:22:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Anna, welcome (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            to DKOS. Glad you brought your tolerance and understanding along with you.

                            Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

                            The Americas greatest political dynasty...the Kaan

                            by catilinus on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 03:43:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Trust me, I've only read a couple of your comments (0+ / 0-)

                  out of ALL of your responses here because I get a sense that it is the same hateful comment every time.

          •  extremely well said (5+ / 0-)

            Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
            Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:01:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  So every time somebody speaks well of Germans (7+ / 0-)

          anybody has the right to recall Hitler and the Nazi's?  Pres Obama is no different than those new world "Americans" who slaughtered Native Americans and should be brought up in every Obama or American diary?

          Glenn Greenwald promotes far-right fringe extremist group The Oath Keepers -

          by Jacoby Jonze on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:12:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good point, Jacoby Jonze. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Wish I could "Recommend" your post.  For some reason, that option is not here.

            Everything is part of a system. Some people believe that system is science, some believe it is G-d. I believe science is part of G-d's system.

            by Anna Wise on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 12:01:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  A note to explain your comment - comments (0+ / 0-)

              are only recommendable for 24 hours after posting, with the exception of the Tip Jar.

              A diary can be recommended infinitely, replied to directly for about a week. Individual comments can be replied to for, I believe but am not certain, 3 days.

              So the later you come in to a conversation, the fewer options you have for taking part in it. An additional note is that, if you are replying to a person who makes a lot of comments, they may never see a reply that is more than 24 hours after the original post, and sometimes less than that, simply because it's to a comment that has scrolled off their Comments page.

              There is a feature called Recent Replies which will bring up comments such as yours if it's checked within two days of the time you post, but I do not know how often that is regularly used by most people, except when they are trying to manage multiple posts to a diary.

              This is why most diaries tend to rise and fall in less than 24 hours, with a few notable exceptions. In some ways it's a shame, but I believe the critical factor is the capacity of the site servers.

              At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

              by serendipityisabitch on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 11:52:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  If this was a catholic site, then (0+ / 0-)

        perhaps one would be peeing in someone's pool by offering their "I'm not buying this BS" opinion, but this isn't a catholic site and anything written on it religion-wise is fair game for comment and criticism.

        Most atheists were religious before they became atheists and I don't see any bodies on the ground from falling.  In fact, I see people who are much relieved that they are no longer mentally saddled with superstitiion, fear and the conviction that myths actually occurred.

        I really am sad when I see atheists stand guard over religious opinions as if they should be treated with kid gloves.

    •  What makes it important is that (36+ / 0-)

      a billion people world wide listen to him. And when he makes a call like this, he can influence entire countries.
      Skip the claptrap and look at the real power he wields.

      If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

      by CwV on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 04:31:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The fact that this man has this power over minds (0+ / 0-)

        is probably the most depressing fact about our species. I say it is better to pull the curtain back around this wizard and his kingdom and expose him and it for what it is.  Believer me, people will recover from the shock.

        •  he has no power over "minds" (8+ / 0-)

          he has no power except to inject issues into public discourse that his adherents can then further.  And this Pope's issues are good ones, fighting poverty, neglect and what I am hearing as a rage against using his church to back politicians & policies that fuel poverty & neglect.

          •  In my view, you are hearing PR nothingness. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            And the church's history on "fighting poverty" is chock full of using charity to proselytize (read about how the "saint" mother Teresa did her charity) and gain PR for the church.  In the US, most of the charity is backed up by our tax dollars.

            I really feel that most of the world has never read the history of this church, or about how its fingers are in every country's pies economicially and power-wise today.

            For this man to even presume to speak on corruption is mind blowing, not something to place hope on.

            •  People and institutions can change. (0+ / 0-)

              One of the common themes in the Bible (both Christian and Hebrew) is that people change, for better or worse, and secular history, likewise.  In the New Testament the best example is Saul of Tarsus, who became, because of a personal vision, Saint Paul.

              Institutions also change their character as the people who occupy its positions of power change over generations and centuries, and the accepted beliefs about morality change.  Institutions are always founded for a combination of good and evil reasons, and no matter how evilly (or virtuously) they behave, their founding ideas include SOME seeds of good (and SOME seeds of evil).

              Americans today know that the United States as a nation was founded by men who owned slaves and men who took a continent away from the natives, but who also had expressed, as an ideal (without fully realizing all of its implications), equality for all human beings.  Each crisis in our history EVENTUALLY resulted in getting a bit closer to that ideal, and the opinions of most Americans today, which basically govern the actions of most American policy makers today, would no longer tolerate the policies and actions of a century or two ago (and yes, there a few exceptions).

              Likewise, the Christian movement began as several mutually disagreeing groups sharing what each group saw as the essence of what Jesus of Nazareth taught and what he meant to history and to each person who followed him.  The surviving interpretation, eventually legalized and made the official policy of the Roman Empire, became the Catholic Church, which split into the various national Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Church.  The policies promoted by that institution have oscillated between tolerance and intolerance, with a long term drift toward tolerance; and between endorsing power politics and insisting on the moral impermissibility of corruption and the abuse of power.

              Given the changes in public moral attitudes in the more highly developed countries, including their Catholic citizens, it would be unthinkable today, for example, for the Spanish Inquisition in its medieval form to be revived.  Priests may still TELL non-Catholics or dissenting Catholics that they are sinning by disagreeing with the Church, but they no longer even contemplate arresting them and taking them to the dungeon to "persuade" them (the torture chambers are too full of secular governmental security cases anyway).

              Apparently the new Pope wants to emphasize the sins of uncompassionate treatment of the poor and powerless for the benefit of the wealthy and powerful, and interpret the Church's moral teachings as gently as possible toward those who are poor and powerless.  He seems to feel that the previous Pope has done enough for the time being in enforcing orthodoxy of belief, while being willing to forgive sins committed out of desperation by those who have few choices, and condemn the actions of those who operate the system that puts those people in that situation for their own profit (even as they loudly proclaim their devotion to Jesus as good Catholics or good Protestants).

              In summary, history is not the immutable character of any institution.  Barack Obama (or even Ted Cruz) is not Andrew Jackson, Jefferson Davis, or Grover Cleveland.  Shinzo Abe is not Tojo.  Angela Merkel is certainly not Hitler.  Putin is not Stalin (not yet anyway). And by the same token, Pope Francis is not Leo III or Pius XI or Paul VI (more like John XXIII).  Even Benedict XVI was not Urban VII.  By their fruits you shall know them, said Jesus, and the fruits of today's Catholic Church are not the same as the fruits of its history.

        •  i applaud when anyone who has influence (14+ / 0-)

          uses that influence to expose wrongdoing and make the world a better place

          i condemn when anyone who has influence uses that influence to cooperate with wrongdoing and make the world a harsher place

          right now the Pope is doing the former and I applaud him for that, even though tomorrow he may do the latter

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:02:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  History, including his own in Argentina, (0+ / 0-)

            points towards the latter.  Have you read his comments on women lately??  You think this guy is going to change anything of any substance?  The words are meaningless without action, and so far, there's not only no action, but there are more mean words on women and bones thrown to gays.

        •  Lots of ppl like religion, better this guy.nt (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CwV, cotterperson, Yoshimi

          "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

          by merrywidow on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:09:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I thank him... (12+ / 0-)

      ...for saying it in a way that is meaningful to some people, and which might (not holding my breath) get through to a few of them (still not holding my breath).

      Religion is a paradism, like a base numbering system or a mathematical graphing system, it is a framework or structure in which to examine abstract ideas.  

      It's not for me.   But, it has a profound effect on some people, so if you can find a person who is good at translating meaningful ideas into "religionese", it can have a positive effect on those people.

      Unfortunately, the people who are good at translating into religionese are often translating all the WRONG ideas, like "hate gay people" and "other people are sinners and it's your job to tell them what sinners they are and how they have to come to your church and give us money".  So, it's good to see some useful ideas come out in religionese, and get marketed by the Big Office.

      •  Religion Is a Racket (0+ / 0-)

        Religion isn't a "paradigm" unrelated to the people and organizations that practice it, or to what they do.

        Religion is as religion does and as the religious do.

        The profound effect it has on most people is to give them an excuse for other people doing good and thinking about the ethical consquences of their actions. For some few its profound effect is to improve their behavior more than just empirical proof of compassion and respect would do. For some other few it gives them the tools to do great evil, which often sweeps a civilization. The latter bad guys are more creatures of religion than the former good guys, because the evil is peculiarly religious while the good is produced by many "paradigms" (and their practice) unrelated or contrary to religion.

        Your defense of religion is the same as "love the sinner, hate the sin", where the sin is religion as if it's some pure abstraction rather than a description of the sinner.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:45:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The Vatican, like it or not, is a country (17+ / 0-)

      recognized as such under international law, and it has a seat at the table in a spectrum of international negotiations.

      The Holy See is far from just "holy."  What the Pope does, says, or seems to suggest, has tremendous importance for not just millions of people around the globe, but potential impact on state and institutional policy in dozens of countries.

      Ignoring that is childish.

      That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

      by concernedamerican on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 05:19:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Admit it....You're just jealous of hit pointy hat! (6+ / 0-)
    •  Maybe the Pope isn't speaking to you? (10+ / 0-)

      But, if his message to the people who listen to him is consistent with your own ethos, which I'm assuming it is (rich vs poor and corruption), why not support it?

    •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Matt Z
      I've given up childish things.
      That's a blanket statement. I've read your string of comments and I recommend that you talk to someone. There is a lot of anger in your comments and it might help you if you really understood the underlying cause.

      Good luck friend.

    •  but what he says influences the thoughts and value (8+ / 0-)

      of over 1 billion people, even if they do not interest you. To what extent his influence will be felt remains to be seen but it can't hurt to have his flock hear these things on a consistent basis.

    •  Far less nice rags and no Prada shoes, really (6+ / 0-)

      trying to appeal to the better natures of people and for that he should be praised not cut down

      "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

      by merrywidow on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:08:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ancestors persecuting people (7+ / 0-)

      Guess I have to hate myself. My ancestors persecuted each other. My Pilgrim ancestors burned the churches of my Presbyterian ancestors. My Scotch-Irish ancestors burned the villages of my Irish Catholic ancestors (my mom swears if she knew that my dad's family was from Londonderry, that might have scuttled the marriage.) My Colonial ancestors attacked my French Canadian ancestors. Some of my Anglican ancestors chased my Puritan ancestors out of their country.  Descended from Huguenots and those burned them. Don't seem to have any traceable Native American or recent African  ancestors, but if I did, I am sure that I had other ancestors who would have enslaved or killed them.

      Getting on a high horse about something that happened 8-10 generations ago is a great way to feed your rage, but isn't very relevant. If you are European, then you are descended from Charlemagne and certainly related to all kinds of major bad folks. Take your pick. I have ancestors / cousins who fought on the wrong side of every major issue and war in history.

      Are you an American? Wow - slavery, genocide, aggressive wars against all neighbors, occupations, carpet bombing, nuclear war. Guess you are to blame for all of them.

      Because it is a lot easier to paint with a wide brush and hold yourself harmless. Everyone else has to answer for all of history and you were born innocent.

      Can we go back to talking about the issue raised in the diary and stop hijacking it?

    •  Until he condemns circumcision (0+ / 0-)

      Then I bet he will get your attention.

    •  If you don't care at all about his opinion (0+ / 0-)

      then surely it would have been easier to skip this diary entirely than to take the time to come in, read it, and post a comment?

  •  Pope Francis is just a wonderful human being (31+ / 0-)

    Ever since he was chosen, he's just been amazing, quite an improvement over Pope Benedict.

    There was a picture that got quite a bit of attention in the news of Pope Francis comforting a visitor that was seriously disfigured (neurofibromatosis I believe) but needed someone to hug.  Francis embraced the man.

    •  I'm still wondering about Benny XVI's retirement (6+ / 0-)

      to a monastery. I think he's implicated somehow in the pedophile priest scandals.

      Find out about my next big thing by reading my blog. Link is here:

      by Kimball Cross on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 02:06:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They Both Are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It's well established that ex-pope Ratzinger was in charge of the (formerly known as "Inquisition") office that hid baby rapist priests.

        And still hides them. Francis hasn't turned over any of these baby rapists, though his files are full of details of their crimes, victims and other evidence that should prosecute them. Of course that makes him complicit.

        The whole goddamn church is complicit.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:50:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Catholic church (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites

          is one damn big ship to turn around very quickly. The pope has some seriously entrenched interests with whom he must deal.

          In Minnesota a diocese that has been shielding known offenders for decades has just announced it's releasing the names of offending priests currently under it's jurisdiction. It's not a total surrender and they were under serious pressure from numerous directions leading up to the announcement, but it's quite a move and it's almost as if some power higher up has let it be known the bishop will no longer be supported in his resistance to civil authority.

          Maybe we should cut the man a little slack and see how the church behaves under his watch rather than condemn him for all the sins of his predecessors.

          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

          by ricklewsive on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 10:53:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  A Little Slack for Rapists (0+ / 0-)

            If the pope called the Minnesota dioscese right now and told them to send the names and files to the Minnesota police today, that wouldn't take very long to turn around. About an hour at most I'd say.

            The pope could start handing over baby rapists today, have more files by the end of the week, and by the end of the month have hundreds of these baby rapists' files sent to local police. The pope has been in charge for many months, but has not sent any of them to justice.

            Meanwhile many of these baby rapists have been among other babies they were moved into to hide them. Where they're surely raping more babies.

            This is not turning the entire church. This is starting with the files already closest to hand, which should be sent to the police on day 1. And then pursing it all.

            You are treating this like something far more complex than it is. You and others "cutting the man a little slack" are helping him hide these baby rapists from justice, while they continue to rape.

            What would Jesus do? Even without a miracle he'd have turned that ship in the months Francis has had.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 11:09:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It could even help the public interest (0+ / 0-)

              to send a lot of priests and bishops to jail.  Think of it as "reassigning them to the prison ministry."  And the states where the prisons are located would not even have to pay the salaries of the priests!

              "Services will be held in the prison chapel at 10AM by Father 6625539."

    •  Yeah, he's a great guy... except for what he did (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      in Argentina.  Do some homework.

      •  he did some good stuff in Argentina too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        i am not a Roman Catholic but I would much rather have him than Benedict

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:06:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Tell is more than one sentence what he did (7+ / 0-)

        in Argentina. Tell us the whole story including his apology for not doing more to protect the leftists.

        •  Questions? Look up Betty Clermont's (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Betty Clermont

          diaries on Kos.  The one on Stephen Colbert also lists his latest comments on the role of nuns and women in general.  

          •  Here's what Latin Americans say about Bergoglio (4+ / 0-)

            “[T]here needs to be profound change within the structures of the Church….It remains full of cardinals and bishops who were named by John Paul II and were sympathetic to his political fight [against communism] but who are pretty reticent when it comes to the rights of children, women or minorities,” said Jose Andres Murillo, founder of Chilean group Para la Confianza (For Trust) which helps victims of pedophile priests.

            Bergoglio’s “biography is that of a conservative populist...adamant on doctrinal issues but with an openness to the world, especially toward the dispossessed masses….But at the same time he attempted to unify the opposition against the first government in many years which adopted a policy favorable to those groups,” according to Ernesto Semán, a historian at New York University and former reporter for two Argentine newspapers. Since the majority of Latin American nations are now governed by left-leaning parties, Semán said that the election of this “very conservative cardinal from the region might help bolster forces that are opposed to continuing this enormous change that’s occurring in Latin America.” of the liberal

            Sounding like his American confreres, Bergoglio accused the Kirchner government’s efforts to legalize same-sex marriage as “demagoguery, totalitarianism, corruption and efforts to secure unlimited power.”

            The election of Cardinal Bergoglio was “a masterstroke of Vatican diplomacy. The Catholic Church, about to sink between the financial and sexual scandals, urgently needed another ‘image’ in the face of public opinion in the world and more so in Latin America,” explained Fr. José Nicolás Alessio, an Argentine theologian who was dismissed from the clerical state in February 2013 for favoring marriage equality “In Argentina and on the continent, the right-wing sectors, both political and religious, will be strengthened,” theologian stated.

            “In Argentina, his naming as pope has been received with the warmest enthusiasm by the rightist opposition,” agrees Andrea D’Atri, founder of Bread and Roses, an Argentine human rights group.

            Pope Francis is using the poor as part of a discourse to strengthen the Catholic Church in Latin America according to Rubén Rufino Dri, a philosophy professor at the University of Buenos Aires and a former member of the Priests for the Third World. "He's a great actor, trying to make us think this is a revolution. But he is not humble. He is simply leading the Vatican's attempt to win back the streets in Latin America, where popular left-wing governments and Pentecostals here have taken power and followers away from the church."

            The cardinal/electors “are positioning their pieces in the world game of chess in order to empower political projects championed by the North and its allies in the South,” warned Brazilian Ivone Gebara, one of Latin America’s leading theologians.

            •  And yet since coming to office, (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mmacdDE, Emmet, Yoshimi, Chi

              Pope Francis has largely spurned social issues and shone an uncomfortable light on First World corruption.

              If the rightists were looking for a Pope who's give his tacit blessing to their wholesale looting, it seems that they've been disappointed.

              "Violence never requires translation, but it often causes deafness." - Bareesh the Hutt.

              by Australian2 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:40:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You err... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

       assuming that the two are not related.

                1st world corruption, exploitation (of people and the environment) and general greed and asshattery is a large part of the cause, to my mind, of quite a lot of 'social issues.'

          •  Sympathy for disfigured man has no bearing? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
  •  more pretty words (11+ / 0-)

    given the endemic corruption throughout the church, let's see what he actually does about it. he could start by allowing law enforcement to deal with the pedophiles. and then get to the vatican bank.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 02:12:56 AM PST

    •  At least they are the right words (15+ / 0-)

      for a change. Let's hope his ethics reverberate down through the Church, and rid it of its pedophilic pestilence.

      For the sake of that part of humanity that respects and venerates Catholicism, let this institution be turned to the betterment of all.

    •  The ghost of Roberto Calvi . . . (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laurence Lewis, viral, Sylv, corvo

      Banco Ambrosiano

      Roberto Calvi

      On 10 June 1982, Calvi went missing from his Rome apartment, having fled the country on a false passport in the name of Gian Roberto Calvini. He shaved off his moustache and fled initially to Venice. From there, he apparently hired a private plane to London. At 7:30 am on Friday, 18 June 1982, a postman found his body hanging from scaffolding beneath Blackfriars Bridge on the edge of the financial district of London. Calvi's clothing was stuffed with bricks, and he was carrying around $15,000 worth of cash in three different currencies.[4]

      The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

      by lotlizard on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 02:44:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think he is doing something about it. (10+ / 0-)

      At least according to Mafia expert Nicola Gratteri who says today in an interview in the Italian newspaper Il Fatto Quotidiano (discussed here in the Italian version of HuffPo) that the 'Ndrangheta mafia bosses are getting nervous about the changes that Pope Francis has made already and that the Pope's life could be in danger.

      •  Knowing the history of this institution (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Chi

        and its popes etc. it wouldn't surprise me at all if this statement about mafia bosses is part of the PR campaign run by Francis and his advisors.  You just can't trust this and history is on the side of my skepticism and cynicism.

        •  This time, you've got it wrong. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Emmet, Yoshimi, historys mysteries

          Gratteri and another mafia expert, Antonio Nicaso, wrote a book together called Acqua Santissima: La Chiesa e l'Ndrangheta (Holiest Water:  The Church and 'Ndrangheta), in which they explain the relationship between the Church and this particular mafia organization, particularly in the world of finance.  Gratteri suggests that Pope Francis is starting to "centralize" control over Vatican finances, and the changes he is making are apparently disrupting the channels of money laundering and other forms of financial corruption in which the Catholic church was--according to Gratteri's claims--at least a passive participant.  

          Gratteri and Nicaso are NOT Vatican apologists and thus not part of any kind of PR campaign that you have hypothesized.  Antonio is a friend of mine:  I know where he's coming from and what he's put on the line for his work.  In fact, he's living in Canada to avoid a mafia hit in Calabria, where he's from.  Gratteri is something akin to a D.A. in Reggio Calabria and has lived for years under police protection for his mafia investigations.  

    •  What he's actually doing: (11+ / 0-)

      A draft revision of canon law that removes the "discretion" of local Bishops in the case of (among other things) sexual abuse by priests is being developed - the process started under Benedict. It is expected to land on the pope's desk "soon" (by Vatican standards).

      He's made a number of moves toward cleaning up corruption within the curia, especially at the Vatican Bank.

      In February he'll be creating his first batch of Cardinals - the men who'll elect his successor. When the names are announced we'll start to get a better read on how he intends to move forward.

      •  What he's doing changes nothing (0+ / 0-)

        The "discretion" which, if it happens, only changes the employment status (defrocked?) of the offender. Would that make a difference to you if you had been raped?

        All his moves in the curia so far have been to protect his assets and move control of $$$ to his own appointees. Clean up the Vatican Bank? Certainly because he has made Banco Santander available to handle the dirty and dark money.

        Every single U.S. bishop who has been appointed or promoted by Pope Francis gives one consistent message: business as usual only change the "tone."

        •  Again, according to Nicola Gratteri, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yoshimi, historys mysteries

          this "centralization" of money to his own appointees was to get it out of the hands of those in collusion with the mafia here in Italy, particularly 'Ndrangheta.

        •  "Every single US bishop..."? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          A quick check of Catholic News Agency seems to reveal only 11 US bishop appointments for Pope Francis to date:

          Leonard Blair to lead the Diocese of Hartford, CT
          Frank Caggiano to lead the Diocese of Bridgeport, CT
          Mark Seitz to lead the Diocese of El Paso, TX
          Michael Barber to lead the Diocese of Oakland, CA
          John Folda to lead the Diocese of Fargo, ND
          Michael Jackels to lead the Diocese of Dubuque, IA
          Abdallah Zaidan to lead the Our Lady of Lebanon Maronite Eparchy
          Salvatore Motano to lead the Diocese of Rochester, NY
          Donald Kettler to lead the Diocese of Saint Cloud, MN
          Cirilo Flores to lead the Diocese of San Diego, CA
          Shelton Fabre to lead the Diocese of Houma-Thibodeaux, LA

          Of these, only Zaidan and Folda are newly consecrated as bishops; the other 9 were elevated to bishop by John Paul II or Benedict XVI.  Given that the selections come from a fairly limited pool, I'm not exactly sure what you're expecting to see.

          So, what exactly gives you the notion that they're giving "one consistent message" or what that message might be?

          The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

          by wesmorgan1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 10:12:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  when he turns cardinal law (0+ / 0-)

        over to secular authorities, let's talk.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:30:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not just liberation theologists getting tossed (4+ / 0-)

    into the sea?  And did his Argentine sponsors use rocks or did he come up with that part himself?

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

    by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 02:42:31 AM PST

    •  Heh. "Let him who is without sin cast the first (6+ / 0-)

      human tied to a millstone into the sea."

      "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

      by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:40:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Save the stone and sea-tossing for child molestors (4+ / 0-)

      I like this less violent part better.

      He prayed “that the Lord may change the hearts of those who worship the kickback god”.
      •  It baffles me that he didn't get that the image (5+ / 0-)

        of tossing someone into the sea wouldn't immediately summon the specter of what the Argentine Junta did to thousands of "disappeared" leftists and other innocents, while the Pope himself in his previous bishop's mitre, studiously ignored the abduction and execution of his own Jesuit confreres (who were leftist liberation theologians), pushed out of choppers into the ocean.

        It will take more than words to begin to nullify the horrors that the Catholic hierarchy has participated in.  Much more.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 04:10:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps he did know that, and meant (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          those same Junta should suffer the same fate. But I don't think anything good that Pope Francis does is going to convince any cynical people here. You all are beyond convincing, I'm sorry to say.

          "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

          by JWK on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:05:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was subject to that insitution for 19 years. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fishtroller01, corvo

            I got convinced back then.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:07:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I attended Gonzaga Prep in Spokane Wa for 4 years. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fishtroller01, corvo, Betty Pinson

            If you do a search you'll find that dozens of priests from that institution are known to have sexually abused kids, and  12 of them are from my era there.  And that's not even touching on the mental and physical abuse that went on; I saw one punk of a priest (now ensconced in the Jesuit hierarchy) grab a kid by the shoulders and slam him so forcibly against a set of lockers that the locker doors got bent.  

            I had to admit at the time, though, the kid had it coming.  He had that look, you know, kind of timid and cowering.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:15:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  As with J2P2, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          you can take the prelate out an authoritarian state, but you can't take the authoritarian state out of the prelate.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:05:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hey the "kickback" god was invented by (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, wayoutinthestix, white blitz

        the catholic church.  Where do you think all that Vatican treasure came from???

      •  Oh cool! That means (0+ / 0-)

        he'll let God punish the worshippers of the Kickback God . . . so he doesn't have to.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:05:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The metaphor is straight from the Bible. (8+ / 0-)
      [Jesus] called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

      Matthew 18:3-6

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 04:30:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I went to Catholic school for 12 years, 4 of which (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DocGonzo, corvo

        were under the "tutelage" of Jesuits. You don't need to give me any context.  I'm well aware of it and the passage in question that you quote is even more damning to Francis than the images of right wing Junta operatives tossing leftist priests out of choppers into the sea as their bishop studiously looks the other way.

        See, the point that Jesus made was about the damnation that follows anyone who "causes one of these children to stumble..."  If that doesn't raise the specter of institutional pedophilia in the Catholic Church and Francis' culpability in that horror, I don't know what would.

        Oh, and Jesus' quote was that it "would be better" for those defilers of innocence  to be executed by drowning than the punishment that awaits them in the afterlife.  Francis turns that into "those guilty of corruption (note that the crime has changed from corrupting children to stealing from 'the state' - meaning, of course, 'the Vatican') should be drowned."  In other words, it's now a call for summary execution as opposed to Jesus' reference to spiritual damnation.

        I'm surprised that he didn't call for cement overshoes instead of just a rock. I mean we're talking about Church money, after all.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 04:53:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And isn't Jesus' sense of justice sweet? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Hey, he was telling adults to be innocent and compliant like children. I don't see that as particularly beneficial to grown ups, but it sure is beneficial to religions.  Like one pope said... give me a child and I'll make him catholic for life.  

        I think we need a new bible study guide.  What people see as benign statments by this character Jesus are not so cool when you stop and think about them.  Of course, you are not supposed to think with your adult brain-right?

      •  Sorry to respond to an attitude you might not have (0+ / 0-)

        been projecting.  You'll have to excuse me.  I just got done reading a memoir of a guy (a friend of my sister's) who went to the same seminary that my dad went to.  No, I'm not making that part up.  The writer went there about 20 years after my dad, but the same kinds of stuff happened.  What struck me when reading the book is how similar this guy's experience in both Redemptorist and Franciscan seminaries was to mine at Gonzaga Prep (all-boys at the time) back in the exact same mid-'60s time period.

        So I'm pretty pissed about Catholicism in general, and my dad's willingess to let me endure however much of what he endured (or maybe worse, he didn't tell me much because he didn't like to talk about it) as well as church hypocrisy and concealment around in loco parentis issues, in particular.

        Oh, and they inflicted themselves on my wife as well, in worse fashion that that inflicted on me and my dad, put together.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:49:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wondering if This Includes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishtroller01, corvo, Chi

    the numerous child predators/molesters working for him?

    "The 1% don't want SOLUTIONS; they've worked very hard the last four decades to get conditions the way they are now".

    by Superpole on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:20:41 AM PST

  •  Just finished Reza Azlan's The Zealot (13+ / 0-)

    and am struck by this Pope's apparent return to Jesus' principal concerns: advocacy for the poor, and opposition to corrupt and cruel governance by both the Romans and Jewish elites.

    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

    by Wolf10 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:41:05 AM PST

    •  And Murder (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Yes, thieves who steal from the state (his state) should be murdered by drowning. Just like Jesus said!

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:55:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or Not Murder (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Actually reading the source from which this diary draws its story, quote and headline, it seems that the pope didn't say "corrupt should be tied to a rock" etc. Rather:

        Quoting from the Gospel of St Luke in the New Testament, he said “Jesus says: It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea.”

        That passage doesn't actually call for murder. Jesus in that story is saying that spiritually, as a way of getting into heaven, it would be better for someone who wants to go to heaven to drown in the sea with a millstone around their neck than to cause children (who are more suited for heaven than the adults in the street) to stumble (again, morally). It's no more a call by Jesus to murder people by drowning than elsewhere did Jesus call to push a camel through the eye of a needle rather than a rich man go to heaven.

        It's the UK Independent's writer, Nick Squires, who lied about what the pope actually said and implied. That's the risk of taking literally what a writer for a rightwing newspaper claims someone said.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:04:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah that would be nice if this character (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      named "Jesus Christ" actually existed. Reza didn't do his homework and when asked about his proof that Jesus did walk this earth, he pointed to the same old apologistic sources that have long been debunked.  So his book belongs on the fiction shelf (along with Bill O'Reilly's).  

      However, taking what is reported to have been said by "Jesus" he was not advocating compassion for anyone outside the Jewish community.  In fact he demonstrated his dislike for pagans quite often, condemning whole towns of them for rejecting his messages or the presence of his disciples.   The other messages about corruption were just re-hashes of long standing criticisms about power and wealth that have always been with every culture.

      •  Yes, the putative Jesus was a Jewish nationalist; (0+ / 0-)

        but then national liberation should be selectively embraced by progressives. Example: I reject claims to Palestinian lands by the modern state of Israel.

        The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

        by Wolf10 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 09:19:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This Pope reminds me of what the sin of Sodom was (24+ / 0-)

    No, not what you think. See Ezekiel 16:49:

    In King James version

    Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
    or, in more modern language
    "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
    •  Yes, there are several passages in the (7+ / 0-)

      Hebrew scriptures as well that point to the "sin of Sodom" as greed, luxury and abuse of hospitality.

      (I first typed "sine of Sodom" - they didn't have their own math, did they, like Karl Rove?)

      Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

      by Wee Mama on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 05:40:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So being insufficiently concerned with the poor (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DocGonzo, Fishtroller01, corvo

        is a crime worthy of having every man, woman and child burned to death by flaming ash and meteors.

        What a lovely story!

        When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

        by PhillyJeff on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 05:57:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And there's the passage in Genesis (0+ / 0-)

        that identifies the sin of Sodom as, well, sodomy.

        But hey, as long as you feel compelled to read that ragtag collection of tribal delusions as One Coherent Divine Law, you're going to have little problems like this.

        To say nothing of the face-to-face contradictory creation stories right at the beginning of Genesis.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:08:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

          Insofar as sexual sin is involved at all in the narrative of Sodom in Genesis, the sin in question is rape, not buttsex.

          And even that wasn't necessarily the point; the point was that this abuse was to be inflicted upon foreigners who had been accepted as guests into a local's home, solely because they were foreigners.  Thus violating the principles of hospitality and kindness to strangers.

          Buuut historically, a lot of Christian interpreters of the Bible were more upset about the fact that the would-be rapists and their intended victims were all male than by anything else.  Hence the term "sodomy" and its current meaning in English.  Go figure.

          •  You really don't know how man-on-man rape (0+ / 0-)

            is performed?  And you really think that a primitive nomadic tribe from 3000 years ago would ask whether the act were consensual?

            You know what the punishment for rape of a virgin is in Mosaic Law, don't you?  Give some silver to the victim's dad, and you can marry her!

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:37:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You really don't know the difference (0+ / 0-)

              between the act of rape and the mechanics of body-part-in-another-body-part?  And you really think the concept of consensual sex versus assault was a recent invention?

              The punishment for rape in Mosaic Law is that you are required to pay your victim's father and then financially support your victim for life, with no option to divorce her and thus relieve yourself of the financial obligation, and no legal right to put a hand on her ever again unless she allows it.  Because marriage under Mosaic Law doesn't come with physical rights to the person of one's wife.  The difference between consensual sex and forced sex, even within a marriage, was one they were very much aware of -- it's right there in the old text of marriage contracts.

              And, since you seem to have missed this the first time around: the sin of Sodom was in assaulting guests, and had pretty much zero to do with any sexual aspect of the assault.

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                You really don't know the difference between the act of rape and the mechanics of body-part-in-another-body-part?
                Oh, I do.  But Mosaic Law didn't distinguish between men-lying-with-men as an act of love, an act of rape, or an act of anything else.  It was all disobedience to God, punishable by death.

                And your defense of the hetero rape provision in Mosaic Law is, well, maybe progressive for 800 B.C.  It's worthless, even offensive now.

                Nor were Lot's guests even assaulted.  After offering the Sodomites his daughters, thus establishing the value of women in a manner as unfortunate as it is undeniable, Lot was rescued by the angels, who thougtfully blinded the Sodomites.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 08:51:41 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Mosaic law didn't apply to the people of Sodom. (0+ / 0-)

                  Because (a) it hadn't been given yet, as this event predated Moses by several generations, and (b) the people of Sodom weren't Israelites.  Which means that male-on-male sex was not prohibited to them, any more than abstaining from pork or working on the Sabbath.  Violence against others, however, is one of those things that doesn't require specific divine prohibition (see also under Cain).

                  Lot's guests were not assaulted by dint of Divine interference.  The intended assault is unambiguous, and is generally understood as representative of Sodom's habitual behavior toward strangers.  I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make by pointing out that they didn't actually manage it this time.

                  As regards Mosaic law on rape: I find it interesting that you interpret my clarification of the law as a defense of it.  I'm not making a case for it being a good law.  I'm just here to get the facts straight -- including the fact that consensual vs. nonconsensual was explicitly codified in Mosaic law.

  •  Sarah Palin (21+ / 0-)

    is upset with the 'liberal pope':

    Sarah Palin has revealed that she is skeptical of the 'liberal' agenda that is being promoted by the new Pope, saying that she feels it is being influenced by the mainstream media.

    'I'm kinda trying to follow what his agenda is. You know he came out with a couple of things in the media but again I'm not one to trust the media's interpretation of somebody's message but having read through media outlets,' the former Governor of Alaska said.

    'He's had some statements that to me sound kind of liberal, has taken me aback, has kind of surprised me. There again, unless I really dig deep into what his messaging is, and do my own homework, I’m not going to just trust what I hear in the media,' she said during an interview with CNN.

    "These are established professionals that have a liberal bent, but ultimately most of them if pushed will choose professional preservation over cause, such is the mentality of most business professionals" -BoA/HBGary/CoC

    by LieparDestin on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 04:59:45 AM PST

  •  I have thought this very thing: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, Betty Pinson
    It is my sincere hope that Pope Francis has food tasters or he may have a short reign.
    about the likes of Elizabeth Warren, too.

    There is a time and a place for the Secret Service, that's for sure.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 05:52:52 AM PST

  •  If all the corrupt were tossed into the sea, (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debby, corvo, Fury, fat old man, steamed rice, SuWho

    who will be left to tend the homeless caused by the sudden immense rise in sea level around the world?
    Of course Wall Street, along with most of it's occupants, would be well under water, so some good may come of it.

  •  I like this Pope and I just love how he is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, Batya the Toon, Chi

    pushing the Catholic Church in a progressive direction, but I can't tip and rec the diary because of the title.

    Pope Francis didn't say what you quote him as saying.  There's a difference between "should be" and "it would be better for".

    The title is bloodthirsty, which this Pope definitely is not.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:13:46 AM PST

  •  I went with the plutocrats because Congress, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brooke In Seattle, Chi

    and Wall Street are subsets, or employees of the plutocrats.  They exist to scratch each other's backs and feed off the rest of us.

    Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

    by Ohiodem1 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:25:50 AM PST

  •  This pope is nothing if not really good for a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Front Toward Enemy

    laugh.  He really thinks that he hid his own corruptions in Argentina???

    If we tied a rock and threw all the corrupt players in the catholic church over its 2000 years, you could walk across both oceans on the bodies.

    The hypocrisy is astounding!

  •  Its not about the Middle Class (4+ / 0-)

    Keep in mind that the Middle Class exists in only a few countries. IMO, this is about countries with very rich and very poor and no Middle Class. With the corrupt leaders stealing from the coffers while their poor starve.

  •  heh. (0+ / 0-)

    Waiting for Bergoglio to start cleaning his own damn house.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:01:19 AM PST

  •  Unfortunately (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    steamed rice, SuWho

    Every time I hear about the new Pope making these wonderful comments, his safety is the first thing that pops into my mind.
    Isn't it so sad that we even think that.
    Keep the Swiss Guard close Francis.....

  •  I love this Pope and I am an atheist-Buddhist (7+ / 0-)

    but this man actually follows the teachings of Jesus, just shocking really....Miss Wasilla says he sounds liberal, guess that was not a positive

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:07:07 AM PST

  •  No wonder $i$ter Grifter Palin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, Cassandra Waites

    is weary of him.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:09:15 AM PST

  •  This is what you get when you get a Jesuit (9+ / 0-)

    as pope, for the first time in history.

    Pope Francis REALLY means it.  He really will have a big impact on history, I predict.

    Sadly, I couldn't bear to read this whole thread.  Too much trolling from some usual suspects, who make the identical points over and over and over in any Catholic-related diary.

    •  Let us hope that he has a food taster, since he is (0+ / 0-)

      living in the land of the Borgia's.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:28:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not Catholic, and frankly I agree with you. (6+ / 0-)

      Maybe it's because I live in Rome, quite literally in the shadow of St. Peter's.  What the papacy does affects me and my family's life considerably even though we are not religious.  

      In the political context of Italy right now, Pope Francis has been a breath of fresh air.  

    •  Emotional reactions (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SuWho, Yoshimi

      are to be expected, I think, because of the pedophilia, which rightly gets lots of attention, and historical misconduct. Having worked at a Jesuit medical school, I know first-hand just how tough they can be, so I was delighted to see the first Jesuit pope.

      We can see in the Tea Party what happens when emotion overrides information, though. There is a good deal of change afoot with this pope, though, most not reported by the corporate media (of course). Personally, I suspect this homily is more directed toward the Vatican Bank, which has a long and nasty history, entwined with church corruption. A snip from a detailed article from July at The Guardian.

      Sweeping changes at the top of the Vatican's scandal-ridden bank were announced on Monday night following the arrest of a senior church official in the latest of a string of scandals to have hit the institution.

      The bank's recently appointed president, Ernst von Freyberg, said its two top officials – the director and deputy director – had both resigned. ....

      The departures came three days after the arrest of an official in another Vatican financial department, Monsignor Nunzio Scarano. The Italian authorities said he was a suspect in two inquiries involving alleged corruption and money laundering respectively.

      The Guardian also did a bunch of hootin' and hollerin' when it turned out the a priest newly appointed to a powerful position in the bank was rumored to be gay. The headline questioned the Pope's judgment, though it also may have been a reflection of the respect he has sought for gays as persons.
      On 15 June, the pope appointed Monsignor Battista Ricca, an Italian cleric and former Vatican diplomat, to be "prelate" of the bank, formally known as the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR). As such, Ricca is entitled to attend meetings of both the bodies that oversee the scandal-ridden IOR's operations – its board and a five-strong commission of cardinals. The prelate can also demand to see any document he cares to inspect.

      According to the latest edition of the weekly news magazine L'Espresso, Ricca has a past punctuated with scandal. Its report, which the pope's spokesman branded as "not trustworthy", claimed Ricca lived more or less openly with a Swiss army officer while at the Holy See's nunciature (embassy) in Uruguay. It said he arrived with his lover and, while running the post between nuncios, provided him with both accommodation and a job.

      "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

      by cotterperson on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 10:13:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's obvious that Pope Francis truly follows (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        the Gospels.

        I don't want to read too much into these slight reports, but it makes me smile to think he might have sent an openly gay cleric to bust some of the corrupt Vatican bank officials.  There is great justice and courage in that, if true.  And I think it probably is.

  •  Palin's comment on the Pope is hilarious. (4+ / 0-)

    She is afraid that he sounds liberal but it could just be the lamestream press so she is withholding judgement!!


  •  He is mostly talking about the situation in Italy (6+ / 0-)

    where officials convicted of corruption often get to refuse to resign and serve out their mandate, then abuse the statute of limitations to avoid their sentence entirely.

    (I'm Italian)

    I am an electrical engineer, run a reasonably high traffic server, and build autopilots and drones for a living. If you have technical questions, ask away and I will try to give a cogent answer.

    by spiritplumber on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:34:37 AM PST

  •  What I need from Pope Francis now... (3+ / 0-) a more clear indication that birth control is not against Catholic religion.

    This should greatly help - for one relevant example - the Philippines.

    Also, some climate change talk.

    I like this Pope, but railing against personal corruption is the cheapest talk in the world. There are bigger issues on his plate.

  •  Conservative Christians (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, SuWho

    are now claiming the Catholic Church is no longer truly Christian, because of what the Pope has said. It's kinda funny, when you consider Catholics are the original Christians. This is how I imagine, if he were alive would, Abraham Lincoln would be viewed today by the contemporary GOP--a "RINO".

  •  The sharks and other sea carnivores would get fat (0+ / 0-)

    That would be a lot of people.

    The US is ranked #19, so we are in general not that bad;

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:39:51 AM PST

  •  Tell the Pope to start Naming Names (0+ / 0-)

    I'll go buy as much Rope as I can afford.

    On Giving Advice: Smart People Don't Need It and Stupid People Don't Listen

    by Brian76239 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 09:10:48 AM PST

  •  Until such time as (0+ / 0-)

    The Pope decrees that ALL pedophile priests are immediately excommunicated and handed over to local police, until such time as the catholic church releases all its internal information on such priests that it has been concealing for who knows how many centuries, until the Vatican divests itself of that lodestone, I give him little credit.

    He talks a pretty story its true, and there is no doubt he could have a great influence but here's the ugly truth. The only believers who are going to follow along with his dictates are those who were inclined to do so in the first place.

    No Catholic Republican is going to "see the light of Jesus' teachings" simply because the Pope tells him to. No filthy rich plutocrat catholic is going to use his money for good instead of what's its presently being used for, out of fear of being compared to a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

    The very sad truth is, I think there are alarmingly few people who are going to take the Pope to heart, they will congratulate themselves for having such a "tender loving pontiff" and then continue on delighting in the prospect of poor people not having health insurance.

    Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy.

    by fauxrs on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 09:11:14 AM PST

  •  If this guy were a President of a South American (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, cotterperson, Lawrence

    country someone in the CIA would already be planning a coup to remove the dangerous left-winger.

  •  I'm at a complete loss how to vote in your poll (0+ / 0-)

    No "All of the Above".  Shit, now I won't be able to sleep tonight.

  •  Pope declares war on the US Congress & Wall St.! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, Jyotai, cotterperson


    "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 09:59:54 AM PST

  •  i put Pope Francis in your tags. :D nt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Yoshimi, Matt Z

    "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

    by poligirl on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 10:08:01 AM PST

  •  Cardinals must be wondering... (3+ / 0-)

    I can see them screaming in their meeting rooms...

    "Who let a Christian into this place, and how'd we managed to slip up and put him in charge?"

    That church of Mithras must be getting mighty annoyed at this guy.

    The roaches always win if you turn out the lights.

    by Jyotai on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 10:15:02 AM PST

    •  I think you may havwe meant Midas.... (0+ / 0-)

      ... Mithraism was a competing mysttery religion during the early days of Christianity.  It had no emphasis on worship of money.  Mithra was sort of a Zoroastrian archangel, whose name was later appropriated for a Roman (alt) divinity. Midas was the guy who wished that everything he touched would turn to gold -- and then discovered this was not such a benefit as he thought.

      •  Mithras is Catholicism (0+ / 0-)

        Constantine was the high priest of the Roman church, and in particular a devotee to the Persian Mithras sect which had many adherents in Rome.

        When he 'Christianized' he wiped out the Christian practice of having no leaders, no churches, no alters, no canon, and meeting in communal groups - and replaced it with the Roman temple layout, Roman bishop and priest system, a Mithran altar, a Roman layout of people in pews listening to a leader, and Mithran holy days and doctrine.

        He even retained the title of High Priest of the Roman Gods, Pontifex Maximus

        They haven't been Christian for 1700 years. They hold the book, but their canon is based on the Roman system merged with the Mithran one. Protestants and Eastern Orthodox branching off of them - retained most of the same Roman system and canon, and still hold to Roman and Mithran holy days.

        So yeah... meant Mithras.

        Every now and then, somebody opens that book they carry around and reads part of it, takes it to heart, and you get a Christian. That they let one become Pope is a major oops moment.

        The roaches always win if you turn out the lights.

        by Jyotai on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 11:55:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Most of the present features of early Christinaity (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ... most importantly, an increased emphasis on apostolic succession, the rigidification of the church hierarchy and the definition (and narrowing) of the Scriptural canon (plus the suppression of female leadership) came as the result of opposition to gnosticism -- and, thus, was already in process prior to Constantine. Mithraism was pretty moribund by the time of Constantine.

  •  I would have chosen "All of the above" (0+ / 0-)

    Next up we will hear the Evangelical Dominionists, who have a Machiavelian philosphy, calling the Pope a Red Commie.

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 01:45:30 PM PST

  •  corruption (0+ / 0-)

    i believe most corruption is caused by societal structures that fail to contain individual selfishness.

    we need more local control aka relocalization.

  •  Did the Pope's spokesman approve his message? (0+ / 0-)

    I hope he checked with him ahead of time and got permission to say this, because the Pope often has nice words, but frequently the Papal Spokesman contradicts him and explains that he really didn't mean what he said. When Pope Francis made the comment about how anyone could be saved, even atheists, the spokesman was quick to contradict that. So, who is in charge of the church and it's doctrine, the Pope, or his bureaucrats?

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 10:40:53 AM PST

  •  In the poll about the most corrupt, (0+ / 0-)

    What was meant by incuding 3.141?  Is that a code for the name of some person or institution?  And by the way, if it is meant to be PI to three decimal places, it was rounded incorrectly.  Since the 5th digit is 6 (3.1416...), the proper rounding would be 3.142.

    And what were the 2% (48 voters) so far thinking it was?

  •  Those are Jesus own words (0+ / 0-)

    Those are Jesus own words, 'thrown into the sea with rocks tied around the neck',  and the 'whitewashed tombs'. I like that guy… I dont worry so much about the food-tasters cause he does his own cooking, but if he were a President of the US hed already be a dead President…

  •  It's fascinating to see someone who fits.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the true description of a "follower of Christ" on the Papal Throne.  Last time we had someone like that was John 23rd.

  •  There are two kinds of corruption. (0+ / 0-)

    Pope Francis seems to be railing against the low-level kind, wherein, for example, a numbers runner for the Mafia skims cash into his own pocket before turning the rest over to his capo.  If those higher up in his organization detect his corruption, he will suffer severely in this world, never mind the next.

    However, what about the Mafia itself (or Goldman Sachs, or Exxon Mobil, or whoever is currently clearcutting rainforests to make way for palm oil plantations--make your own list of evil organizations)?  It, and organizations like it, are corrupt in a much different sense.  They encourage and enforce practices that make the world a much worse place than it would be without them.  Each individual in such an organization may be scrupulously honest (except about organizational secrets!), and have the kind of personal integrity that would preclude low-level corruption.  But the end result is much worse than the sum total of low-level corruption.

    Such ideological corruption can have devastating effects.  The lies about climate change promulgated by the Heritage Institute may well cause so much delay in mitigation that the planet will be unfit for human habitation 200 years from now.  The Citizens United decision has undermined American democracy in a way that no amount of Tammany Hall-style corruption ever could.

    So, Pope Francis, now that you've dealt with the small fry, how about going after the big fish?

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