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The latest execution in Arizona has apparently gone real bad.

Lawyers filed emergency papers to stop the execution of Joseph Wood in Arizona on Wednesday, saying prison officials botched the lethal injection.

"He has been gasping and snorting for more than an hour," according to the motion filed in federal district court in Arizona. "He is still alive."

Wood, 55, was convicted of killing his girlfriend and her father in 1989.

Update: NBC has more info. Apparently it took the prisoner two hours to die.

4:34 PM PT: NBC adds: "His execution date had been put on hold several times as the case wound its way through last-minute appeals. One of those decisions was notable for a dissent in which the chief judge of a federal appeals court said the guillotine would be better than lethal injection for executions."

From the Guardian:

The office of the Arizona attorney general, Tom Horne, said Wood was pronounced dead at 3.49 pm local time, one hour and 57 minutes after the execution started.

Only a few minutes earlier, his lawyers had attempted to have the process halted, in an emergency court application to the US district court in Arizona. "We respectfully request that this court stop the execution and require that the department of corrections use the lifesaving provisions required in its protocol," the lawyers said.

"He is still alive. This execution has violated Mr Wood’s eighth amendment right to be executed in the absence of cruel and unusual punishment," the court filing added.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (191+ / 0-)

    "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - my dad

    by briefer on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:14:38 PM PDT

    •  If anything (17+ / 0-)

      "long drop" hanging properly carried out is a lot more humane.

      Hell even the slow strangulation of the more barbaric form of hanging would be preferable to this.

      "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

      by Lib Dem FoP on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:43:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep (9+ / 0-)

        I cannot disagree with you there. This was a horrible horrible way to die.

        •  True, a bad way to die, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, pravin, rosethornne

          but not nearly as bad as getting shot and killed, then having your daughter get shot and killed as well.

          Personally, I'll go for gasping for a couple hours every time.

          •  Do you think executions should be horrible (13+ / 0-)

            And inhumane? Or do you think they should require a certain level of humanity, to prove we aren't complete savages as a culture?

            •  I wont lose sleep over it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I lose more sleep over innocent people being convicted to die. But if there is no doubt about the guilt, it is just collateral damage in cases like this. Maybe it will put some fear into other murderers on death row.

              •  What's the point of that? (13+ / 0-)
                Maybe it will put some fear into other murderers on death row.
                The fact that they're on death row isn't good enough? Now we have to psychologically torture them on top of that?

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:43:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You don't personally know if this one was guilty. (10+ / 0-)

                Why do they need to feel fear while on death row? They're already subdued and unable to hurt anyone for the most part. How is it humane to off our prisoners, who are absolutely defenseless to it and unable to stop it? The only place fear could have a place, in my opinion, is in would-be murderers. But the death penalty has been proven not to deter murderers. It doesn't make them less likely to kill.

                •  His own lawyer tried to explain his crime as due (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  to some mental incapacity. So there is no doubt he committed the crime.

                  I am actually in favor of making it even tougher to get the death penalty. I have no shame and I will admit that when guys like Ted Bundy types are executed, I have no problem taking joy in it.

                  A case like this is borderline for me when it comes to death penalty. If I were in charge, I would not object if he merely got life in prison. But it is what it is.

                •  which is another conclusive arguement against... (5+ / 0-)

                  ... the DP.

                  No deterrence value.


                  What does have deterrence value is when the criminal justice system can catch, try, convict, and imprison criminals swiftly and with certainty.

                  The sure knowledge that if you commit a crime, you will be caught, and you will be convicted, and you will immediately go to prison, and this will happen within weeks or possibly days, is what deters crime.

                  We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                  by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:18:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It deters that one offender from recidivating (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Neuroptimalian, rosethornne

                    that's reason enough if he's a Ted Bundy type.

                    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                    by BlackSheep1 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:52:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm as liberal as anyone on most subjects but I... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I'm as liberal as anyone on most subjects but I do support the death penalty for the most heinous crimes. That said I believe the system needs a higher standard for DP convictions. Perhaps a DP conviction triggers an automatic retrial in a different jurisdiction. Two consecutive death sentences and the execution is carried out within 48 hours or something like that.

                    •  I agree on one part, but disagree on the other (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rosethornne, notrouble

                      The problem with wrongful convictions is that having a mere retrial right away wont help things because sometimes, it takes years to figure out that the prosecution or cops committed unethical manipulation of evidence or testimony.

                      I think having accountability for prosecutors and cops when such cases turn out false would be better deterrant of wrongful convictions. You rarely see the DA prosecuted for mistakes.

                •  If my only other choice was (0+ / 0-)

                  an 8x10 cell 23/7 for the rest of my life I would be all in favor of my execution - maybe even a two-hour suffocation.

                  Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

                  by dov12348 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:55:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Well then why not support drawing and quartering* (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BoiseBlue, emeraldmaiden

                as that would put even more fear into those on death row, wouldn't it?

                *being hanged until almost unconscious, then cut down, castrated, disemboweled, and then while still alive have each arm and leg tied to a horse and torn apart.

                You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:45:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hmmm...... are we talking about the vicious per... (0+ / 0-)

                  Hmmm...... are we talking about the vicious person-shaped *thing* that raped a baby, split her open, and killed her?

                  Seriously though, Americans are creative and inventive. I am thoroughly unconvinced that we cannot come up with a quick, sure method of removing such dangerous rubbish from the gene pool, even without a decades-old batch of drugs. IF there is no question of guilt.

              •  Right. Because we can always be certain. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                emeraldmaiden, BMScott

                Every one who thinks we can have no doubt about the guilt  - EVERYONE - should be required to watch The Life of David Gale.

                When lots of people show up to vote, Democrats tend to win.

                by Audri on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:36:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  We've reached the tipping point (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              We ARE complete savages as an American culture.

              "You can't run a country by a book of religion. Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side." Frank Zappa

              by Uosdwis on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:24:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  language check: savages and barbarians. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AgavePup, Sandino

                (This isn't criticism of you, just a general "announcement" about the way these words are used.)

                "Savage" comes from the French "sauvage," meaning, a person who lives in the woods.

                "Barbarian" comes from words that mean "foreigner."

                These are obsolete, all the more so because they were traditionally used in racist contexts.

                Words such as primitive, uncivilized, and brutalist, are useful for our purposes and don't have the bad contexts.

                A brutalist or brute, is someone who lives by brutality.  That to my mind sums it up pretty well.

                We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:58:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tell me how 'uncivilized' hasn't a negative (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  denotation, let alone connotation?

                  Also, most connotations of "savage" include shades of "uncivilized", which is just as problematic as "barbarous" / "barbarian".

                  Just curious, as someone who is interested in etymology, where you derive your distinctions.

                  (P.S.  As far as hard etymology goes, it appears that "savage" seems to come from the same concept [if not same root] as "pagan" / "heathen" [someone who lives on the heath, AKA someone not of the current urban trend].)

                  •  all of those words have negative denotations. (0+ / 0-)

                    Civilized ultimately comes from "living in the city," which arguably has pejorative connotations with comparison to rural dwellers and woods dwellers.

                    But it also has connotations related to "civil" behavior and "civil society," that can be detached from any implication that non-city-dwellers are somehow "less than."

                    We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                    by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:01:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Barbarian means having a beard (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  unlike the civilized and clean shaven romans. The meaning Foreigner was already a derived generalization.

                  •  interesting. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I haven't seen that before but I'll look it up.  Thanks.

                    We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                    by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:58:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  This is not true. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Greek βάρβαρος was ‘non-Greek’, hence ‘foreign’, and later by extension ‘strange, ignorant’.  The Romans extended the term: Latin barbarus was ‘neither Latin nor Greek’, whence ‘pertaining to those outside the Roman empire’ and by extension ‘uncivilized, uncultured’.  In the Middle Ages the word acquired the sense ‘non-Christian; heathen; Saracen’. There is no connection with Latin barba ‘beard’.

                •  The etymologies are irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

                  to modern usage, and the second isn’t quite correct.  According to the December 2012 update of the OED entry for savage, Old French salvage and its Middle French reflexes actually had the following senses (with dates of attestation) as an adjective:

                  • (of an animal) wild, undomesticated (1121×34)
                  • (of a place) isolated, remote (1121×34)
                  • (of a person) uncivilized, rude, coarse (1135)
                  • (of land, a country, etc.) uncultivated, uninhabited (c1160)
                  • (of a person) badly adapted to life in society (c1165)
                  • (of plants) naturally growing, wild, uncultivated (c1165)
                  • violent, cruel, brutal (c1208)
                  • (of a person) of difficult character (c1265)
                  • (of manners, attitudes, etc.) rude, uncivilized (end of the 14th cent.)
                  • of or belonging to peoples regarded as primitive (1596)
                  • difficult to tame or control (1690)
                  Substantival uses first appear in the late 16th century.  The source is Late Latin salvaticus, from classical silvāticus ‘woodland, wild’.  None of these is ‘person who lives in the woods’, though such a person might in some cases qualify for the descriptor.

                  It would also be more accurate to say that Greek βάρβαρος was originally ‘non-Greek’, probably with the original sense ‘one who does not speak intelligibly’.

          •  if and only if the purpose of the DP is revenge. (10+ / 0-)

            But revenge is one of our most base, primitive, uncivilized, and overtly brutalist instincts.  It's an atavism that we must evolve out of, because otherwise, in an age where any Joe Average can buy used biotech equipment and whip up a pandemic plague, it will prove to be our undoing as a species.

            There is no place for revenge in the 21st century and beyond.

            As for what to do with atrocious murderers, the obvious answer is life in prison without parole.  "Flush them down the jail" and forget them.

            And anyone who thinks that innocent people never get sentenced to death, and those sentences are never carried out, is downright delusional.

            Imagine someone dying in a torturous execution and then some time after that, new evidence emerges to prove that they did not commit the murder.

            Sending innocent people to prison is bad enough but at least they can be released when they are exonerated.

            Sending them to die is intolerable.

            Sending them to die torturous deaths, makes us into monsters.

            We got the future back. Uh-oh.

            by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:15:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  eye for an eye leaves everyone blind (6+ / 0-)

            I don't understand the logic of  having state sponsored torure of convicted killers so that the  killer suffers the same as his victims. That is what you seem glad about.
            I understand how that would Feel good, even feel just. But it is not just. We have to temper our feelings with our rational mind. Should always but especially concerning acts of the State on our behalf. The standards we want our government to hold to need to be higher than what most people hold themselves to. They need to be ideals.
            As far as I see it, this execution fell short of our collective ideals so even if we can empathise with the afflicted family, we should be saddened by how this was botched. Even if we don't empathise with the killer's suffering.
            We screwed up. We the People who elect governments that allow killing that could unfold this way. I hope people who support the death penalty will also see this.
            If we choose to allow government to kill murderers on our behalf, if we give it that power, it must function as an impartial machine in selection of who enters the death system and how they exit it. When it falls short in any way  -as it does with biased selection of subjects as well as, now, how they are killed -even the most pro-death penalty people should be concerned. The machine is running amok

          •  How about death by impalement then? Or (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            being hanged until almost unconscious, then cut down, castrated as painfully as possible, disemboweled, and then while still alive have each arm and leg tied to a horse and torn apart?

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:44:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's documented that as the SS rounded up (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ichibon, G2geek, Sandino

        the group of men who attempted to kill Hitler with a bomb in 1944, he insisted that they be hung by the neck with piano wire and the events filmed so he could watch them suffer in terror as they died.

        I guess the people who think that Wood deserved a similar experience (as well as those who have no problem with torturing prisoners) must have inherited some old genetic material from in front of a certain bunker...

        Is Governor Jan breaking out the popcorn and beer this evening and inviting McCain over for a viewing?

        •  you forgot Sarah Palin. n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:19:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  an example of why Naziism is... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino, henlesloop, emeraldmaiden

          ... the supreme example of concentrated essence of evil in human history.

          Stalin and Mao each killed more people than Hitler.

          But Hitler and the Nazis did it with the ultimate in cold, calculated cruelty, and gratuitous sadistic cruelty, carried out with the most efficient means of modern technology and bureaucratic organization as if it was merely another industry.  

          And they sought to remove an entire category of humanity, the Jews, from the face of the Earth, altogether and with finality.  Hence "the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem" as it was called.

          Those points taken together add up to supreme evil, bar none.  A degree of evil beyond the capacity of words, or even the precise language of mathematics, or the evocative language of music, to describe: something almost impossible for the mind to grasp.

          And yet we must grasp it, and comprehend it, for the vitally important reason of preventing anything like it from ever happening again so long as humans walk on the Earth.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:06:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I hope you and others have been paying attention (10+ / 0-)

            To what's been happening to this country over the last 14 years- the chilling similarities to the mindset of the Europe of the 1920s and 30s: the rise of corporate fascism - the neoconservative court packing, gerrymandering and jingoistic militarism - the overt, unabashed racism and exclusionary politics - the revisionist history, the dissing of scientific discoveries made by ethnic minorities - all that's left that hasn't yet is a documented beer hall putsch with Ted Cruz yelling epithets at the White House while foaming at the mouth and chewing the carpet.

            This is what happens when the public has been dumbed down for 30 years with massive doses of television brain rot and Reagan's redaction of the Fairness Doctrine in broadcasting. People who learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it.

            •  yes, yes, and yes, including the Fairness Doctrine (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              emeraldmaiden, ChristieC

              I've been watching developments, and doing what I can about this.  

              But IMHO the flavor of fascism we are heading for is closer to Falangism (Francisco Frano's Spain).  Right down to the detail about multiple Supreme Court Justices who are members of Opus Dei.

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:05:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The notion that Stalin and Mao were somehow ... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, henlesloop, emeraldmaiden

            ... less systematic, gratuitous, cold and organized than Hitler is rather bizarre.

            They used different means to impose their terror and select, round up and kill their victims, but they were at least just as systematic, gratuitous and cold blooded as the nazis, and extremely well organized.

            If anything, they were far more efficient than the Nazis, who were monsters but also so blinded by by their hatred that they were incredibly irrational and inefficient in in the way they ran their deportation and extermination machine.

            Educate yourself about Stalin's Gulag or the Cultural Revolution. Those were, alas, models of destructive organization and of great economy of means in carrying out their horrors.

            I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

            by Farugia on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 09:17:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that's a viable arguement: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              That the Nazis were so blinded by hatreds that they became irrational and inefficient, as compared to the apparatus under Stalin and Mao.  

              But even there, I would suggest that many who worked in the Nazi machinery were pure cogs without personal hatred for Jews or other victims.  Hitler's strategic fail was getting into a war on two fronts.  Had he not done so... (!).

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:08:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The Nazis were "inefficient"? (0+ / 0-)

              Are you saying that 18 million Jews, Gypsies, Blacks, political dissidents and anyone else that objected to a national socialist anschlusse was sent to any one of 20 thousand concentration and labor camps spread out all over Europe and either worked to death or summarily butchered over the span of 5 years? And that the various methods of killing people were inefficient? Granted, Josef Mengele's experiments were inefficient because vivisecting living people or injecting nitric acid into their brains had to be done one at a time, but those gang showers laced with Zyklon B and the production- style ovens were anything but inefficient. Hell, the state of Texas department of corrections is green with envy over that system!

              Conversely in Stalin's Soviet Union, if you said something that annoyed him, there were two and only two consequences, depending on his mood: either you were dragged down into the basement of the Kremlin and shot or thrown in a box car and sent to Siberia. And Stalin's box score for corpus delecti  took much longer to develop than Germany - he started in the 1920s and didn't stop until 1955. As a bloodthirsty bastard, Stalin had no style, panache or creativity - but if you wanted murder on an industrial scale, Nazis were the preferred provider...

      •  Or firing squad. (0+ / 0-)

        Or even a point blank firing in the cranium region. Anything that obliterate the brain instantaneously is highly unlikely to cause undue pain. Messy, yes, but undue pain.

        I think a better solution is following:

        1. Get a case to a supreme court so that can rule that life imprisonment without possibility of parole does NOT constitute as cruel and unusual punishment.
        2. Commute all death sentence to life imprisonment without possibility of parole.

    •  Not a chance. Poll Arizonans and you'll likely (29+ / 0-)

      find 30% think "he deserved it."

      Face it, very few in the U.S.A. have an even rudimentary understanding of their Rights. Don't expect our legislators to honor what we are not even aware we are losing. Plus, for them, this is all fine and dandy godly retribution. Not only is this NOT sad to them, this is the ideal outcome for them.

      Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

      by pajoly on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:48:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  electric chair is the most humane method. (13+ / 0-)

      (Note, I'm opposed to the death penalty except in extreme cases where someone has committed atrocious crimes, and they will remain permanently and significantly dangerous even in incarceration.)

      The protocol for electrocution is:  3000 volts for 15 seconds, followed by 300 volts for about 30 seconds, followed by a 2nd shock of 300 volts for 30 seconds.

      The initial 3000 volt shock depolarizes every neuron in the brain in 1/60 of a second, thereby obliterating embodied consciousness* before the prisoner's brain can register any sensation.  Also clamps the heart muscle thereby stopping heartbeat.

      The subsequent 300 volts maintains the condition whereby no neural transmission can occur in the brain, and no return of activity can occur in the heart.

      In short, embodied consciousness ceases in 1/60 second, before any pain can be felt, the heart stops, and none of it ever comes back.


      *embodied consciousness:  I use this term to refer to a mind that exists in conjunction with a functioning brain.  The issue of whether consciousness persists in another state of existence after death of the brain is not yet resolved, and the question of immortal souls is outside the scope of science.  

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:46:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Still (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        briefer, G2geek

        shudder Just the idea.

      •  There are numerous cases (11+ / 0-)

        of just horrifically botched electrocutions.

        Just like there are numerous cases of horrifically botched lethal injections.

      •  Why not just run a carbon monoxide tube? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        briefer, aseth

        if painlessness is a factor, just let the guy sleep in a chamber piped in with CO.

        •  Seriously. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek, rosethornne

          The thing I can't understand is how are they possibly this bad at this?

          If they're going to have the death penalty, why wouldn't they use known methods that accidentally kill people in their sleep?  Nitrogen asphyxiation, carbon monoxide, or even overdoses of general anesthetics?

          Re-Elect Al Gore! Gore/Warren 2016! Eight More Years!

          by aseth on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:57:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Overdoses of general anesthetics (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, a2nite

            is what current methods of lethal injection amount to.

            -7.25, -6.26

            We are men of action; lies do not become us.

            by ER Doc on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 11:19:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  in which case how do they botch it so badly? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              emeraldmaiden, ER Doc, rosethornne

              I suspect there is some deliberate manipulation of combinations of drugs and dosages to produce an increase in suffering.

              The old 3-drug cocktail was very interesting in that regard.

              Sodium thiopental is short-acting as in minutes.  Tweaking the dose or the placement of the needle could result in a relatively small amount reaching the brain.  And wearing off while the pancuronium bromide was in effect causing muscular paralysis: thereby the condemned becomes conscious and experiences suffocation, and also experiences the pain of the cardiac arrest produced by the potassium chloride.  

              What about this:  Require by law, EEG during execution, until the brain has been flatlined for sufficiently long as to demonstrate irreversible brain death.  Make the entire EEG record available to the public.  This would settle the issue of consciousness during paralysis and suffocation and so on.

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:40:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It starts with not knowing how to start an IV & (0+ / 0-)

                not caring.

                It is state sponsored non-consented medical experimentation.

                I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                by a2nite on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:54:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's one of the supposed "advantages" of the (0+ / 0-)

                  midazolam/hydromorphone cocktail; the drugs are both well-absorbed from an intramuscular injection, in case they can't get an iv. The intramuscular route would, of course, probably be even slower.

                  -7.25, -6.26

                  We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                  by ER Doc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:32:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  They didn't botch it... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                What happened was predictable. The midazolam would probably have mostly worn off in 10-15 minutes. After that, what you have is purely death by narcotic overdose. That will take a variable amount of time in different individuals, and will include apparent air hunger and reflexive gasping. Spasmodic movements and even seizures are possible. it wasn't torture for him; if it happened as described, he was deeply sedated by the hydromorphone the whole time. It was, however, torture for the witnesses who had to sit quietly in their chairs for two hours and watch reflexive efforts to breath by someone whose normal respiratory center was suppressed.
                     That's part of the problem; breathing isn't prevented by the drug, it's suppressed, so there is still a little breathing, but not enough to sustain life. Even if the prisoner was sedated, then given a paralytic drug, the paralytic actually prevents breathing, so the death would be much faster. (And incidentally, the paralytic would prevent most reflexive movements that would disconcert the witnesses.)
                     In the tried & true older three-drug cocktail, that was done, but with the addition of a lethal shot of potassium to stop the heart quickly. In the recent Oklahoma execution that took too long, it sounds like they had an infiltration of the iv, so that they didn't get full paralysis or the immediate lethality of the iv potassium. The "heart attack" that killed him was probably the delayed effect of a slowly-absorbed potassium overdose.

                -7.25, -6.26

                We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                by ER Doc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:27:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  there are combinations of gases that... (0+ / 0-)

          ... will produce painless death, but I won't discuss them here, and I discourage others from discussing them here, because they could be used for suicide.

          If someone wants to end their own life and has a viable medical reason for doing so, their doctors will be able to advise.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:16:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You can do 'em by the busload (0+ / 0-)

          history tells us.

      •  I'm also anti- death penalty as I don't believe (9+ / 0-)

        in giving our government the power to take our life for any reason....

        However, this is ridiculous trying to  "sanitize"  death...

        Like you said use the chair or even better, a .22 bullet costs a dime and it's also almost instantaneous.  let the Governor or Attorney General or whoever is pushing to maintain the death penalty pull the trigger.

        Let people see in the full light of day what their voting decisions have wrought, televise them.....We will find out what kind of country we live in really.....

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:03:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  we used to hang people in the courthouse square (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          maybe if we went back to that we'd be more willing to think harder about who gets sent to the gallows.

          There are those who do deserve it.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:59:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because back when we hanged people on the (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, BoiseBlue, a2nite

            courthouse square we thought harder about it?  Back when we hanged people on the courthouse square they were disproportionately people of color.  There aren't any "good ol' days" when it comes to the state murdering people.  And there is no time we can "go back to" that would be a time when the death penalty was fairly and honestly imposed.

            "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

            by stellaluna on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 09:56:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  hmm. I disagree. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              But YMMV.

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:05:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would certainly be interested to (0+ / 0-)

                Know when you think the death penalty was imposed fairly and in a more humane manner.

                "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                by stellaluna on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 01:41:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Let me see ... (0+ / 0-)

                  Timothy McVeigh comes to mind.
                  So does Osama bin Laden.

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:51:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh you mean individual cases where you have (0+ / 0-)

                    determined that, based on what you know about the cases from the ever-reliable media, the death penalty was just.  I was talking about an era or time in the past (based on your comment about wanting to "go back" to that certain time) when the death penalty seemed to work better.  It appears that we agree that there was no such era and that the best we can do is point to individual cases where we think, again based on what we know from media reports, the death penalty was warranted.  Sadly, being able to point to a few cases where you think it was appropriate doesn't make the policy or the implementation any more just or humane.  It's just times we lucked into maybe getting it right.  Or at least less objectionable.

                    "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                    by stellaluna on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:58:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, the Brits used hanging up thru WW2 (0+ / 0-)

                      and apparently the US officially used it, according to a report by Rachel Maddow tonight, until the 1930s.

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:14:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the technical info (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It is quite fascinating.

        Still think I would choose a firing squad, though.

        •  However not all firing squads are the same, with (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          some of them the person in charge will fire a couple of pistol shots into the back of the head to ensure a quick death.  With others the condemned will just be left to bleed out slowly and painfully.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:58:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If we really, really have to kill someone (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            (Note, I don't think we do), I would do this.
            A tank gun with calibre >75mm.
            Fire at range of < 5 cm, pointed directly at the back of the head.
            1. Strap head to the muzzle of the tank gun.
            2. Fire.
            I don't think there're ways to f*** up this kind of execution.

    •  the Big Dirty Secret about lethal injection: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tytalus, side pocket, Sandino, dov12348

      The first drug is supposed to be a sedative to knock out the prisoner.  But it is short-acting, as in, it only lasts for minutes.  

      The second drug paralyzes the muscles, stopping breathing.

      The third drug stops the heart, causing death.

      But if the first drug wears off in the middle of the process, the prisoner regains consciousness and finds themselves unable to breathe.  They endure the horrific sensation of being desperate for breath but unable to breathe.  They begin to slowly suffocate.

      And then as the third drug causes their heart to seize up, they have the sensation of a stake being driven into their heart.  

      All while being unable to even cry out in pain.

      And this was part of the deliberate intent behind the design of the lethal injection method.  What makes it deliberate is the use of a short-acting sedative instead of a long-acting sedative.  After all, why knock someone out for only a few minutes, when there are plenty of other drugs that would knock them out for hours?  

      The only reason to knock them out for only minutes is to maximize the probability that they will regain consciousness while the suffocating drug is working and the heart attack drug is taking effect.  In other words, to torture them on their way out.

      This can easily be proven.

      Just require by law that prisoners be connected to EEG to monitor their brain activity.

      Require that the EEG record be published after each execution.

      I guarantee that instead of weak slow Delta waves, characteristic of unconsciousness, we will see high-frequency Beta waves, characteristic of a fully conscious mind, and we will see other signal components that any neurologist will recognize as being typical of a person in terror and excruciating pain.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:33:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not accurate. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, rosethornne

        Sodium Thiopental does have quick recovery time in the short doses given to begin anesthesia.  In larger doses like that used in executions, though, it would keep you under 12-24 hours.

        That's part of the reason it's not used for general anesthesia.

        •  Anaesthetic dose, 350 mg. (0+ / 0-)

          Lethal injection dose, 500 - 1500 mg.

          At the low end of the lethal injection range, or higher depending on body weight, one would expect faster recovery of consciousness.

          And, nobody checks the dose that is used on prisoners.  At least, there is no public oversight of it.  

          In any case, how else can we explain the obvious symptoms of severe distress observed in a number of 3-drug executions?  Clearly the drugs are not working as they "should."

          The goal of humane execution has to be to flatline the brain painlessly, and then while the brain is flatlined, stop the heart.

          Better yet, no more executions at all except for atrocious crimes where the criminal will remain dangerous behind bars.  For example would we release Bin Laden from prison in exchange for a plane-load of hostages?  Better to execute someone like that, or kill them in a military attack.  But for your garden-variety cruel murderer with no "friends" on the outside to commit further atrocities to try to get him released, life w/o parole is sufficient to protect the public and deter crime as far as possible.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:57:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think you know too much about this. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Sort of. In a way.

        •  actually i've studied some psychopharmacology. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Funny thing is, I'm not particularly good on general chemistry, but when it comes to drugs and brains, I know the subject pretty well and absorb new information easily.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:49:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks again, Supreme Court for displaying (41+ / 0-)

    your sterling wisdom once more.

    The Arizona Department of Corrections intends to execute him with a controversial drug called midazolam, which was used in three flawed executions earlier this year in which the dying inmates appeared to suffer respiratory distress. Arizona also frequently uses a controversial method of administering drugs that was at the center of a botched execution in April in Oklahoma, in which the condemned man writhed in pain for more than 40 minutes before dying of an apparent heart attack.

    Wood's lawyers filed for a preliminary injunction to stop the execution unless the state provided them with information about the qualifications of the executioners and the origin of the drugs to be used in the execution. A U.S. District Court judge in Phoenix denied the request. However, on Saturday afternoon, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed that Wood had a First Amendment right to the information and imposed a conditional stay that could be vacated if the state turned over the information.

    The 9th Circuit refused a state request to lift the stay; so the state appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which lifted the stay without comment.

    -emphasis mine

    Let's give companies the right to force women to maintain blastocyst development but torture inmates to death mercilessly.

    A word to the wise is sufficient. Republicans need at least a paragraph.

    by d3clark on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:25:34 PM PDT

    •  they can't get it right (13+ / 0-)

      This one belongs to Justice Roberts.  Way to go Roberts!!! (ick)

      plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

      by anna shane on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:36:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, it's "right", all right (n/t) (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anna shane, briefer, Rogneid

        "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

        by wader on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:11:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not sure it was Roberts. I'd put the blame on (9+ / 0-)

        all of them.  This should not happen.  When will the USA grow up and learn that the death penalty only gets people too poor to defend themselves and must depend on the mercy of the public defender.  That poor man.  I can't imagine the pain he went through.  I was imagining the pain the people on MH17 must have felt knowing they were blown out of the sky by terrorists.  That might have been 12 minutes time for them to hit ground.  This guy went through hell for 2 hours.  That is torture and these people are terrorists, including the SCOTUS

        "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength", George Orwell, "1984" -7.63 -5.95

        by dangoch on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:26:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fortunately (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Losty, SoCalSal, side pocket, G2geek, catwho

          the MH-17 passengers, according to experts, probably didn't suffer:

          Passengers probably did not suffer and were not aware of what happened, according to Doug Richardson, the editor of I.H.S. Jane's Missiles & Rockets.

          Richardson told Time magazine that the Buk missile allegedly used to shoot down the plane normally detonates right before it reaches its target, releasing shrapnel in a way that's designed to cut through multiple parts of an airplane. The explosion would have caused the plane to suddenly lose pressure.

          "The decompression would have been quick, and the passengers would have been knocked out before they knew what was happening," Richardson told Time.

          What do we want? Evidence-based change! When do we want it? After peer review!

          by puckmtl on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:40:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  unlike the other one (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            that probably cruised for hours before going down.  I'd prefer quick.  

            the death penalty got a setback in California, based only on it takes too long, so in the end it's too arbitrary, dependent on age at conviction and how long you live.

            And this may be a set-back.  I don't understand, with all the issues available, why anyone would pick pro-death penalty.

            plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

            by anna shane on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:00:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry to burst this bubble... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mr Robert


            Would rather it were true.

            FL 350     30 sec to 60 sec     10,668 m     35,000

            MH-17 was at 33,000, so it would take about a minute or a bit more to lose consciousness. I think you would be aware of what was happening in that minute.

            Mark E. Miller // Kalamazoo Township Trustee // MI 6th District Democratic Chair

            by memiller on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:08:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  except for two things; and conclusion: instant. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              linkage, catwho, puckmtl

              (This I got by following links that led to a US Gov study of another explosive decompression incident involving an airliner at altitude where nearly 250 people died, and reasoning out the details from the abstract.)

              Catastrophic damage to an aircraft fuselage causes loss of engine power and thrust, and produces disruption of the aircraft exterior surfaces such as to cause significant increase in air resistance.  Even considering the inertia of the aircraft in motion, a sudden decrease in velocity is equivalent to an automobile impact at the speed of the decrease.

              What's important here is the net decrease in velocity over time.  A sudden loss of, for example, 100 miles per hour, has the same effect whether it occurs from 500 to 400 miles per hour, or from 100 miles per hour to zero.

              The combination of sudden decompression of the cabin plus sudden deceleration of the aircraft produces blunt force trauma injuries that are immediately fatal, as follows:  

              The passengers' brains are subjected to something roughly equivalent to a fall from a height onto a pavement (head first), producing severe concussion with immediate unconsciousness.  The force on the thorax and abdomen causes fatal damage to internal organs including the heart.  There would be no opportunity for any mental reaction to the explosion, and no chance for consciousness to resume.

              Bodies in the incident that was the subject of the study, were recovered from underwater.  Significantly, water was not found in their lungs, demonstrating that they were not breathing when they became submerged.  They were already dead before the aircraft hit the water.  Since there were no additional forces applied to the aircraft between the time of the explosive decompression and the time of impact on water, there were no added conditions during that time that could have caused death.  The only conditions that could have caused death, occurred at or immediately following the explosive decompression.  

              My conclusion is that the passengers on the Malaysian Airlines 777 were rendered unconscious through concussion in the instant of the explosion, and at the same instant their hearts sustained fatal injuries from blunt force trauma, such that they were medically dead within at most two or three seconds of the explosion.

              This in no way diminishes the viciousness of the attack, or the culpability of the attackers, who are still guilty of terrorism and mass murder.

              But if victims' families are suffering due to wondering what their loved ones went through, they should be reassured that unconsciousness came instantly and death came within a few seconds.  There was no time for perceptible pain or terror: just "here" one second, and "gone" in the next.

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 10:13:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ^^^ this (0+ / 0-)

                I was going to reply about the deceleration thing as instantly causing fatal injuries before decompression caused loss of consciousness, since I'd read that in a few articles — but G2geek nailed it with science in a way I couldn't.

                What do we want? Evidence-based change! When do we want it? After peer review!

                by puckmtl on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 09:58:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Cue the (15+ / 0-)

          obligatory knock on public defenders.

          You have no clue as to the heroic efforts public defenders go to in the trial courts to stop DP verdicts, or the huge personal and emotional toll on an attorney whose client is condemned despite years of investigating and then presenting the client's life to the jury and imploring them to let him live.  

          Every February the Calif Public Defender Association hosts a 4-day DP seminar featuring the most amazing and dedicated state and federal public defenders fighting the death penalty in the trenches. Brilliant lawyers teaching all of us and helping us with our DP cases. We also have DP camp for attorneys with current DP cases to spend a week with other defenders brainstorming our cases.

          People read about some un-funded drunk and sleeping public defender in some backwater place and unthinkingly extrapolate that attorney's lack of effort to all of us.  But California's public defender system is relatively well funded. As are the systems in quite a few states.  And public defenders across the nation are not just attorneys who can't do any better.  That is a myth.  We go to the mat every day fighting for our clients lives and fighting to preserve their constitutional rights, and yours.  Extrapolate that.

          Public defenders do amazing work, if I do say so myself, being one.  Best job in the world.

          Thank you for listening.

    •  Any Certified Nurse Practitioner or anyone more (10+ / 0-)

      thoroughly trained knows how to kill relatively painlessly and quickly with a syringe.  There is something scary and unstated going on here.

      Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

      by StrayCat on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:02:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  cuz they are so, you know, (0+ / 0-)

      Pro-life or something.

      The thing about democracy, beloveds, is that it is not neat, orderly, or quiet. It requires a certain relish for confusion. Molly Ivins

      by MufsMom on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:02:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Oklahoma. But, I can tell you, there (35+ / 0-)

    were a bunch of Okies sickened by our last execution.

    I think there's a lot of folks ready to pull the plug on the death penalty.

    "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - my dad

    by briefer on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:25:38 PM PDT

  •  Lethal injection is done for the comfort (19+ / 0-)

    of the public and the viewers. It isn't done for the offender.

    They'd be kinder to chain saw him.

    Rick Perry - the greatest scientist since Galileo!

    by Bobs Telecaster on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:28:03 PM PDT

  •  We look less civilized than the Taliban right now. (17+ / 0-)

    "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - my dad

    by briefer on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:28:56 PM PDT

  •  Just updated. Woods is dead. Took almost 2 HOURS (12+ / 0-)

    A word to the wise is sufficient. Republicans need at least a paragraph.

    by d3clark on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:32:37 PM PDT

  •  A round of slowclaps for our friends at the Suprem (20+ / 0-)

    Court, and for the state of Arizona. Good job guys. Really good job.

    Amerikkka, fuck yeah

    “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

    by 420 forever on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:33:05 PM PDT

  •  Just disgusting nt (11+ / 0-)

    To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

    by sneakers563 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:40:54 PM PDT

  •  and for those that would say (22+ / 0-)

    he was a murderer and deserved to die blah blah blah.. the problem is they miss the ENTIRE POINT.  The point is for those of us against capital punishment is... we cannot be sure of guilt in our flawed and racist "justice" system.

    When thinking and discussing the death penalty we need to be discussing it with the perspective of.. The guy/gal being killed , and now tortured to death, by the government may be innocent.

    How can we stand by and by for a death penalty that may well kill and torture innocent people on occasion? 1 is too many, and we have assuredly passed that threshold long ago.

    This is just one more thing that is so shameful about our current government.

    •  Y'know (32+ / 0-)

      I agree with you, and that is often the most convincing argument to change the minds of those who supported the death penalty.  I never supported the death penalty, for your reasons and the racial disparity in its enforcement--until I was about 35.

      Sometime around 35, what really began to sink in with me was that the practice of the death penalty was coarsening and killing the American soul.  That barbarism in the name of justice was simply make us all more barbaric.  That state sanctioned murder only weakened the moral core of everyone.

      Your reasons are solid, and likely the best to change people's minds, but I have come to recognize that the death penalty is wrong, even if we were certain of guilt, and even if the person being executed committed staggeringly heinous acts.

      "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

      by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:52:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (20+ / 0-)

        My gf and I had an argument about this. I have stated that if I am ever murdered no one is to seek the penalty for my murderer, no matter how brutal the murderer or how rock-solid the proof of who committed it.

        She refused to agree with that and it was a pretty significant disagreement that lasted a couple of weeks. Eventually she agreed.

        But I will not let someone be put to death in my name.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:09:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My wife is more in your gf camp (7+ / 0-)

          Though no serious argument.  I don't care why someone opposes the death penalty, just that they do.

          My wife and I, grimly, joke that in a perfect world, a world without mistakes, racism, and texas, she would support the death penalty...but in that world we would likely never need the death penalty, so its all moot.

          "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

          by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:13:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We still argue about it sometimes (6+ / 0-)

            She says "I know you're right, but there are some people I just think should be put to death."

            It's an emotional thing, and she gives me grief about that all the time. I base my opinions on logic and facts and it drives her crazy because "Sometimes emotions are important too!"

            So she's against it intellectually, but emotionally she still supports it. It's one of the few political things that we disagree on.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:25:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've been against CP for as long as I remember (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BoiseBlue, G2geek, Shutterbug

              but I do understand the emotional component. I have read of horrendous things that make me feel like maybe I should adjust my opinion, but that's just emotions talking.

              Some humans ain't human some people ain't kind. They lie through their teeth with their head up their behind. You open up their hearts and here's what you'll find - Some humans ain't human some people ain't kind. John Prine

              by high uintas on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:39:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  obligatory texas-bash noted and logged (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Charles Manson continues to get love letters in prison.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:06:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  What about redemption? (0+ / 0-)

        I had a lightbulb moment some years ago when listening to an NPR piece about the death penalty.  Someone as an aside mention redemption.  That suddenly made it very clear to me what the Christian position should be.  We cannot take someone else's life because anyone at any point could become redeemed - which is the Christian hope for anybody.  We can't draw lines and say well what about (insert horrible person here)?  If one person is beyond redemption, we're all beyond redemption.  Moreover, that would be a judgment I would ever want to make.  Judge not lest ye be judged.

        And of course, Jesus was tortured and executed by the authorities at the time.  Again I don't see how to square Christian doctrine with capital punishment or with torture (or with war).

        Those who are so publicly are often also so publicly pro death penalty - i.e. pro-justice and pro-vengeance and pro-eye-for-an-eye.  Jesus changed all that - so the most vocally Christian are often the least aligned with the actual Christ.  (This is nothing new, of course.)

        These are some of the many (religious as well as non-religious) reasons that I am opposed to the death penalty.

        NB. Please don't respond to this with unrelated attacks against me or the Church.  I am merely pointing out an obvious (to me) inconsistency that exists today between established Christian doctrine and the death penalty.  I am fully aware of Church history and the horrible things members of the Church have done that are also in conflict with Christian doctrine (and how Church authority was misappropriated to rationalize their actions).

    •   no problem making it tougher to impose death (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I actually am on board making the standards of imposing death a lot more tougher. When I see how some people on death row were falsely convicted, I see no mechanism in the system that punishes the DA and other on the prosecution team for exaggerating evidence or some other unethical practice. Without fear of any kind of punishment , you will have dirty DAs worry more about prosecution rates than actual justice. A DA should not be focused on prosecution but on the right thing being done.

    •  this is why I oppose CP in America (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, a2nite

      Our criminal justice system is simply too fucked up to practice the death penalty. As an concept I'm not wholly against it but it is a disaster.

      28 ~ AZ-01 ~ Flagstaff, Arizona

      by Fox Ringo on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:47:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is a terrible attempt at an argument. (0+ / 0-)
      The point is for those of us against capital punishment is... we cannot be sure of guilt in our flawed and racist "justice" system.
      This argument doesn't work on any level.  No punishment is refundable... even a simple fine would need to be adjusted for opportunity cost at a bare minimum.  Time imprisoned can in no way be returned to the innocent... the government cannot erase your memory or issue you additional life span.

      Even assuming your given, that we have a flawed justice system, doesn't in any way remove the necessity of having one.

  •  When are folks ever going to learn (20+ / 0-)

    that there is no 'good' way to kill people.  Fuck.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:45:30 PM PDT

  •  Cruel and unusual (15+ / 0-)

    and repulsive and horrifying.

    Expect chortles and posts of "he deserved it!" by Rightwingers everywhere. A recent columnist was right when he said that the Right wing now has a pathological level of hatred that defines it.

    Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

    by pajoly on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:45:30 PM PDT

    •  Evil people deserve it (0+ / 0-)

      it's not just right wingers who think that. Some of us borderline liberals think that too.

      •  Yup (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue, G2geek, HCKAD, allensl

        and thank god only evil people are executed, never a mistake.  And its just an coincidence that blacks are more evil than whites who commit the same crime.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:54:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  has nothing to do with wrongful convictions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I have been onboard the notion that prosecutors and other authorities that have conducted themselves improperly in wrongful convictions need to be punished. Usually, a death penalty case requires more proof that the guy is guilty than the normal conviction case. And if the jury buys into it, then that is usually a result of some kind of improper conduct on part of the prosecution and cops.

          •  Yup (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BoiseBlue, willrob, G2geek, HCKAD, a2nite, allensl

            we get it.  Shit happens, innocent people die.  Black people die more frequently. But that's all OK, cause they get it mostly right, and that's good enough.

            Look to my comment about coarsening, I was talking about you.

            "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

            by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:07:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  More innocent black people die at the hands of cop (0+ / 0-)

              I will save my outrage for the deaths of people lilke Garner than worry about some demented white guy getting fried.

              At least I am honest about what I believe. I do not feel the need to twist your words to make a point like you do with me. I actually agree that something needs to be done to curtail wrong convictions and I agree minorities bear the brunt of them. I have no problem tossing prosecutors and cops in jail for cases gone wrong, especially death cases. When you convict someone to the extent that jury awards death, chances are there was some unethical manipulation of witnesses and facts done by the DA's office. That would force a DA to think twice about twisting the facts for some personal glory.

      •  ^^^^^The problem with our country^^^^^ (8+ / 0-)

        Too few people understand the difference between justice and revenge.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:58:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When I wrote about (7+ / 0-)

          the coarsening, this is what I meant.

          "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

          by Empty Vessel on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:02:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Stop the holier than thou bullshit (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Some of us are fine with you death penalty opponents. I can agree to disagree.

            Don't misrepresent the issue by bringing in the wrongful conviction of minorities. THat is something that needs to be curtailed - death penalty or not. We need to save some of this outrage to go after politicians for not putting in stronger laws not holding DAs, judges and cops more accountable for their mistakes. Everytime I see a case where some innocent guy was saved from death row, I never see any punishment doled out to the prosecutors or cops. For me, an innocent guy who rots in prison for 40 years is done an injustice almost as bad as the death penalty.

        •  It's also priorities (0+ / 0-)

          We still have wars which dwarfs the human rights concerns in cases like this. We have cops killing innocent black guys. And so excuse me if I can't summon any outrage on cases like this.

          •  Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            briefer, a2nite

            The state torturing people to death is one of mine. I can still be outraged about the war and racial abuses by the police.

            BTW- check yourself. If you don't see the racism inherent in our justice system you are fooling yourself.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:14:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who said I didn't (0+ / 0-)

              I have made numerous comments about the problem with racism in the system and that needs to be fixed - death penalty or not. My priority is to hold prosecutors more accountable for their misdeeds. Merely opposing death penalty does nothing for the many minorities rotting in jail for life - a fate almost as bad as death.

              •  Your proposal means that people still die (0+ / 0-)

                Putting something in at the end of the process won't stop these things from happening. You think an AG office can't successfully stonewall?

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:28:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  then we need to reform the post conviction process (0+ / 0-)

                  Just because I don't lose sleep over evil people dying doesn't mean I am not open to making it tougher and tougher to sentence people to death and make bad authorities accountable.

      •  Sorry, I say no (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue, G2geek, a2nite, allensl

        No one deserves cruel and unusual punishment, nothing justifies the blatant violation of the law. That sort of rhetoric excusing atrocity does not belong on this site.

        The Stand Your Ground defense is like bleach. It works miracles for whites, but it will ruin your colors. -- Jessica Williams on The Daily Show

        by tytalus on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:31:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Shoking. (4+ / 0-)

    The horrific truth is that the slaughter of animals is far cleaner and more humane than executions in the USA.

    At this stage it would seem that lethal injections are untenable. Sadly this will just mean the reversion to other methods rather than the ending of the practice.

    If you are going to execute someone you should shoot them in the head or use the guillotine them and actually face up to the ugliness of what you are doing.

    •  That's the problem (16+ / 0-)
      At this stage it would seem that lethal injections are untenable. Sadly this will just mean the reversion to other methods rather than the ending of the practice.
      They're experimenting with new drug cocktails because they can't get their hands on the old one. We're experimenting on prisoners. This is so morally repugnant that I can't even believe I'm typing that sentence in a supposedly civilized nation.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:49:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we have to do this, why not an overdose (6+ / 0-)

        of morphine, painless death, I don't understand the problem with finding the right drugs, junkies die every day just from too much heroin

        "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

        by merrywidow on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:24:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They might have a moment of pain-free pleasure (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SoCalSal, G2geek, a2nite

          for the first time in a long time before they die, and, horrors, that would be far too much to give criminals who deserve to die painfully -- evidenced by the way these botch jobs are playing out, anyway.

          "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
          Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
          Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

          by OleHippieChick on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:46:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Poor choice. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc

          Opiate lethal doses can vary wildly, especially among those with a history of abuse (which are over represented in the prison population.)

          Opiate overdoses are not without unpleasant side effects either, seizures and spasms are common.

          •  This actually (0+ / 0-)

            was an opiate overdose; they used a combination of midazolam (Versed) which is a short-acting sedative, and hydromorphone (Dilaudid). That's why the length of time to death is unpredictable and the reflexive breathing movements are difficult to watch.

            -7.25, -6.26

            We are men of action; lies do not become us.

            by ER Doc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:58:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That's essentially what they did here. (0+ / 0-)

              The two drugs in this Arizona execution were the same as in the protracted one in Ohio: midazolam (Versed) and hydromorphone (Dilaudid). This was exactly the painless death you are referring to. The fact that you don't have to sit in a chair and watch closely for half and hour to two hours while the junkies die is why you don't recognize this.
              This guy wasn't in fact suffering for two hours; he was certainly unconscious the whole time, or he wouldn't have died. If I understand the procedure as performed, he was given one dose of each drug, then they waited for him to die. He was unconscious & deeply sedated the whole time, despite the fact that he was moving and making frequent breathing motions. That sort of reflexive breathing is "normal" and expected with this set of drugs, and the length of time it takes for death to occur is unpredictable. This hasn't been intentionally done as a means of execution very often, so dosages are uncertain. Using your example, it's not unusual to hear of two junkies side-by-side, shooting the same apparent dose of narcotics, then one wakes up hours later and the other is cold and stiff.
                This doesn't look like lethal injection is "supposed" to look like, because it's not the same time-tested procedure that used to be done. The old method used an active killing drug after the prisoner was anesthetized and paralyzed, to get the execution over quickly. This method takes an unpredictably amount of time for the prisoner to stop breathing, and he's not paralyzed, so the witnesses are forced to watch whatever reflexive movements he makes while dying. It's honestly not torture for the prisoner; he's deep in Dilaudid sleep. But it might be torture for the witnesses.

          -7.25, -6.26

          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

          by ER Doc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:55:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's the most egregious thing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BoiseBlue, G2geek, a2nite

        the fact that they are experimenting on prisoners.

        Light is seen through a small hole.

        by houyhnhnm on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:19:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Another piece of hyperbole (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Watch some slaughter of animals hidden footage . These kind of executions are outliers. There is a higher percentage of slaughter gone wrong.

      •  They are no longer outliers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The drug that used to be used, sodium thiopental, won't be sold to the U.S. anymore so states are experimenting. This is not the first death that went awry because states are using drugs that cause these types of deaths.

        Arizona knew that this drug has led to other horrific deaths and it was used anyway.

        By the way, sodium thiopental is no longer sold to the US because most other civilized countries refuse to support the death penalty.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:53:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sodium thiopental is worse. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Short-acting sedative.

          You wake up while the second drug, a paralytic, has stopped your breathing.  You endure slow suffocation until the third drug seizes your heart like having a stake driven through it.

          All while you can't move a muscle so the witnesses think you've been "put to sleep."

          And THAT is the BIG dirty secret about the DP via lethal injection.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 10:21:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not an attorney, but it looks like, from this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    briefer, BoiseBlue, G2geek

    document, that the majority of the Supreme Court ruled to let the execution go forward.

    A word to the wise is sufficient. Republicans need at least a paragraph.

    by d3clark on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:48:07 PM PDT

  •  The Most Botched Up Supreme Court In History? (16+ / 0-)

    They are dreadful.  Horrid.  Left to their own right wing devices, they have screwed the country to a fare thee well.  

  •  Quotes from witnesses: (11+ / 0-)
    According to Arizona Republic reporter Michael Kiefer, who witnessed the execution, lines were run into each of Wood's arms. After Wood said his last words, he was unconscious by 1:57 p.m. At about 2:05, he started gasping, Kiefer said.

    "I counted about 660 times he gasped," Kiefer said. "That petered out by 3:33. The death was called at 3:49."

    "I just know it was not efficient. It took a long time," Kiefer said.

    Another reporter who witnessed the execution, Troy Hayden, said it was "very disturbing to watch ... like a fish on shore gulping for air."
    Both quotes from:
    Bolding by me.

    Looking through the bent backed tulips, To see how the other half lives, Looking through a glass onion - John Lennon and Paul McCartney

    by Hey338Too on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:58:10 PM PDT

    •  I guess Jan Brewer heard from different witnesses. (0+ / 0-)
      One thing is certain, however, inmate Wood died in a lawful manner and by eyewitness and medical accounts he did not suffer.

      "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

      by NWTerriD on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:32:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll bet Rachel is tearing her script up. (15+ / 0-)

    "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - my dad

    by briefer on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:00:44 PM PDT

  •  1st Constitutional Test Met: No Longer "Unusual" n (12+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:12:35 PM PDT

  •  So the blood-thirsty Roberts Court approves.... (5+ / 0-)

    ....torturing condemned prisoners to death.

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:15:20 PM PDT

  •  I think we should go back to the firing squad (5+ / 0-)

    I really think we should end the death penalty, but while we work toward that...

    Properly done, the firing squad is quick and "humane." Botched, death is still likely in minutes. This is far better than what is happening now.

    The firing squad would hopefully force us to face the fact that we are murdering people in the pretext of preventing murder.

    Anyway, if I ever "must" be executed I would only hope something that humane is used. Paralyzing people first doesn't strike me as humane.

    To be first in the soil, which erupts in the coil, of trees veins and grasses all brought to a boil. -- The Maxx

    by notrouble on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:21:54 PM PDT

    •  That paralysis is intended to hide things (6+ / 0-)

      Failed here, obviously, among other failures. But it's meant to mask those kinds of responses. Depending on how they screw up, a person could be rendered paralyzed but conscious, in pain and asphyxiating, helpless.

      The Stand Your Ground defense is like bleach. It works miracles for whites, but it will ruin your colors. -- Jessica Williams on The Daily Show

      by tytalus on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:07:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  At least with the old firing squads the person (0+ / 0-)

      in charge of the squad is required to walk up and put a couple of bullets in the person's brain to ensure they are dead and don't linger.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:54:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I just have to ask (8+ / 0-)

    Do we have a definition of "Cruel and Unusual" in this country anymore?

    According to the SC the answer seems to be NO.

  •  Horrifying (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CenPhx, briefer, G2geek, Shutterbug

    I wish I could think that this would elevate the discussion of ending the death penalty, but I am not at all hopeful.  Too many people will also be horrified, but not because of the death penalty per se; but because of the messy and inefficient means of imposing it.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:48:45 PM PDT

  •  Unites States of snAfu (5+ / 0-)

    Hey, remember when the rest of the world thought we were amazing for the things we could do?

    Yeah, that memory is getting hazy for me, too.

    The Tea Party. When batshit just isn't crazy enough.

    by Alden on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 05:52:09 PM PDT

  •  Odd. They don't have trouble killing peopleq (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick, a2nite

    who AREN'T on death row......

    Legal means "good".
    [41984 | Feb 4, 2005]

    by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:12:21 PM PDT

  •  Jan Brewer: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Betty Pinson, SoCalSal, G2geek, novapsyche

    "in stark comparison to the gruesome, vicious suffering that he inflicted on his two victims."

    COMPARISON? Why would anyone even make that comparison?

    The reason to contrast the two is so that the Governor can ask : Why is everyone here defending a murderer?

  •  Why do I get the feeling (4+ / 0-)

    that the executioners deliberately botched it.  Remember that scene in "The Green Mile" where the sadistic prison guard no one liked deliberately did not wet the sponge?

    "Valerie, why am I getting all these emails calling me a classless boor?"

    by TLS66 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:27:26 PM PDT

  •  Why not hire Kevorkian (0+ / 0-)

    He can do it cheaply and painlessly. I am surprised he got the death penalty. I was reading up on his crime. While I wouldn't say he is undeserving, I see worse murderers get away with life in prison.

    Anyway, I am not going to lose sleep over some murderer suffering for a couple of hours. I have bigger priorities to focus on in our society which affect innocent people.

  •  Jeez, you can OD quickly and painlessly (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SoCalSal, G2geek

    using street drugs.
    These yahoos are pathetic. They should give it up; they suck at it and it's a despicable practice.

    "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
    Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
    Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

    by OleHippieChick on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:33:03 PM PDT

    •  Difficulty is reliability. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc

      The exact level of dose to kill vary widely between people. The side effect from those drug could range from nothing to extremely painful before their lethality set in.
      Abolish the death penalty, or use tank gun to the head to do it.
      Don't half-ass it.

      •  A hot shot of pure duji would off a frkn hippo. (0+ / 0-)

        They know where the good junk is. Tell me property rooms in Copworld aren't filled with various Schedule I's of provable strength.
        And you're right, the whole shit is half-assed and they should quit doing it.

        "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
        Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
        Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

        by OleHippieChick on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 09:59:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Murdering people legally makes those who advocate (5+ / 0-)

    capital punishment no better than those who commit the crimes that got them there.  Life in prison with no chance of parole should be the harshest punishment allowed.

    It is immoral any way you look at it.  It does not deter, the victims families do not get closure.

    I am ashamed to be an American today.

    "It's like, duh. Just when you thought there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between the two parties, the Republicans go and prove you're wrong" Molly Ivins

    by Lefty Ladig on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:35:49 PM PDT

    •  Do we already have a supreme court case (0+ / 0-)

      guaranteeing that life imprisonment w/o possibility of parole won't be ruled "cruel and unusual" in the future?

      Most pro-DP people I'm met are only pro-DP because they don't want to have the possibility where the victim family will have to suffer through watching the murder of their loved one released.

  •  One of the hazards of (0+ / 0-)

    committing a brutal, senseless murder is that your execution may not quite go as planned.

    Think about that if you're ever tempted.

  •  Why is it we can euthanize our pets (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, G2geek

    humanly and yet this is just barbaric?

    "The good Earth — we could have saved it, but we were too damn cheap and lazy." Kurt Vonnegut - "A Man Without a Country", 2005.

    by BOHICA on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:47:45 PM PDT

  •  The real outrage is war, not this (0+ / 0-)

    I was going to put up a diary about the true costs of war. I would rather focus my outrage on the real serious stuff. War took what may have been an OK person, for all I know, and transformed him into what he became. Even if it's not this guys, you see many solders return with some psychological problems.

    The real crime done to him may have been what he endured out there. Or maybe not. Maybe he was a horrible person all along. Whatever it is, he was a bad person at the end. ANd what happened to him at the end was not as inhumane as what a lot of soldiers go through in war.

    •  Can you concentrate on only *one* inhumanity (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BoiseBlue, tytalus, novapsyche

      at a time?

      "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - my dad

      by briefer on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:21:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I dont consider a bad guy dying as inhumane (0+ / 0-)

        It's about scale. Sure, I can concentrate on multiple inhumane things. But for me, the degree of this pales next to the many injustices in our system. But the degree of outrage on this thread paints anyone supporting the death penalty as some kind of right wing nut. You will be surprised at how many outside the right wing circle are not bothered by this as much as you are.

        •  not surprised, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Susan G in MN, HCKAD, a2nite


          You will be surprised at how many outside the right wing circle are not bothered by this as much as you are.
          the death penalty is wrong, period end.  there's no way around it.  it's just wrong, wrong, wrong.  

          it's state-sanctioned cold-blooded murder.  and until our justice system becomes 100% foolproof, we have no business issuing the death penalty.  

          and did i mention it's just plain wrong?

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:38:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If it can happen to someone justly convicted (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite, dov12348, Cedwyn

          it can happen to someone unjustly convicted. This is the real reason the death penalty is barbaric and unworkable. On top of which it is a violation of the protection against cruel and unusual punishment, ipso facto. You can't be happy a "bad guy" is dead, because it's just as possible a "good guy" in a bad situation might end up dead as well. And then how would you feel? Still so superior?

  •  When I had knee surgery (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BoiseBlue, G2geek

    they put me out cold with anaesthetics for something like an hour or more. All I remember is feeling slightly chilly for a moment, then I was gone.

    The surgery itself was fairly invasive, cutting into and digging inside my knee. I felt none of it, of course, having been put completely out.

    If you must kill people (and I'm not even saying you must), for chrissake can you at least do it humanely. We have the technology to make sure a "patient" has no way of feeling what's being done to his body. The mind can be separated from the physical sensations.

    I just want to live somewhere warm. Is that so wrong?

    by lotac on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:02:57 PM PDT

    •  Yeah. (0+ / 0-)

      My general anesthesia encounter was similar - "You'll feel a bit of a chill, and I'm going to count down from 5... 4..." and then I was in the recovery room.  I never heard 3.

      What the hell is wrong with them?

      Re-Elect Al Gore! Gore/Warren 2016! Eight More Years!

      by aseth on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 08:06:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doctors don't participate in state sponsored (0+ / 0-)

      killing. The doctors who took care of you knew what he was doing.

      From starting the IV to the drug choice, this is state sponsored medical experimentation.

      It's a bonus to many that the person experimented on suffers because the state can murder people just because they can.

      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

      by a2nite on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:49:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This was TEXAS, folks. Nothing will change. They (0+ / 0-)

    have no soul.

  •  Oops1 ARIZONA-- Oh, Well, it's the same difference (0+ / 0-)
  •  the death penalty was never intended to be (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, a2nite

    humane.  Many want the deaths to be awful and its intended to make the person being executed feel some of what the victims felt.

    i certainly don't agree with the sentiment and am opposed to the death penalty.  Its clear, though, if the powers-that-be wanted to simply execute someone, there's way simpler ways to go about killing someone.  The reason we keep seeing "botched" executions is because enough people at the top of the justice food chain want the execution to be cruel as well.

    Again, i do NOT agree with such an attitude.  We do, however, need to recognize, or give weight to the actions of the state as opposed to what the state says.  

    elipsii: helping the masses express aposiopesis for...

    by bnasley on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:43:38 PM PDT

  •  My home state (for now) (0+ / 0-)

    Arizona: Putting the Penalty back into the Death Penalty.
     Bumper sticker on backorder at local GOP HQ.

    Netroots Nation: Burning Man for Progressives

    by Gilmore on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 09:26:38 PM PDT

  •  t's ok. netroots nation will take care of this... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raboof, Gilmore

    next year!

  •  Judge Kozinski (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    commented that he thought we should just go back to the firing squad -- quick and painless.

    "The guillotine is probably best but seems inconsistent with our national ethos. And the electric chair, hanging and the gas chamber are each subject to occasional mishaps. The firing squad strikes me as the most promising,"
                    Alex Kozinski, the 9th Circuit's chief judge.
    I appreciate Judge Kozinski's claim that firing squads would be best, and it would take a fine legal mind to incorporate both the cruel and unusual criteria into a final best method. I can understand the cruel criterion, but I would think the condemned should be allowed to waive the unusual if there were better and less cruel methods available which were unusual. It isn't much clear what the unusual criterion actually means, but probably amounts to the forefathers wanting to avoid spectacles like having people ripped to pieces by animals or burned up in front of their families. I think I would opt for an unusual method if it were less cruel, and I know the forefathers would have thought strapping a person to a clinical gurney and pumping liquids into their veins through a hollow straw to be quite unusual, indeed. If I were to become a victim of the notoriously and comically unjust, irreverent and just plain stupid system of American criminal so-called justice, I think I would prefer a potential method which I have considered, and which I think would be least cruel for me.

    The biggest fear of death is for me is the time between the infliction of irreparable bodily injury and loss of consciousness. This period of time varies, and is often very short for the methods most people, such a judge Kozinski, claim are best. Firing squads do quick work. I thought it interesting the account a journalist who witnessed one of the recent Colorado firing squad jobs. He said the procedure began with an audible countdown by someone commanding the firing squad. Apparently, this countdown was audible to the victim. The tension soared in the room as the sound emerged: "five, four, three, t...KABANG." The guy never knew what happened, if the instant death hypothesis is correct! At least, he didn't have much time to question what happened! Time! Pardon me, guys, but are you sure you didn't get a little ahead of yourselves?

    Hanging can be quick, but can also be easily botched and become a gruesomely slow and tortured death. By the mid 1800s, hanging was perfected and was a common enough task that its executioners were skilled. Still, it often went awry. One of the people hung for conspiring to kill Lincoln dangled to death slowly at the end of the rope, actually raising his knees up to chest level -- the only bodily movement possible under the circumstances and requiring massive physical exertion and struggle -- three times before expiring. He obviously died slowly and in agony.

    Judge Kozinski apparently associates massive physical damage with quick death, but they are not synonymous. Experienced combat veterans tell of people being conscious and aware of their fate for minutes after being torn to pieces. The obvious least cruel method is that which destroys consciousness instantly.

    Consciousness is most likely physically located, according to the best speculation of science, somewhere in the brain. An instant destruction of the brain would be the fastest, and thus for me the least cruel method. I would opt for what I call a bomb chamber. I guess that is technically redundant, as a bomb is a chamber -- an enclosed and sealed vessel in which the gas produced by explosive materials rises to intense pressure, causing the vessel, or bomb, to burst violently. It might better be called an incineration chamber. My chamber would be a gargantuan concrete bunker sort of thing, along the lines of a gun bunker built by the Nazis, which had steel reinforced concrete walls 20 or 30 feet thick. It would be cheap to build by modern standards. It would have huge motorized doors which closed to seal the victim in a small chamber in the middle of a 20 to 30 foot thick concrete encasement. Strapped in circular shaped charges around the victim's head would be a large amount of high explosives, such that when triggered, would instantly convert the body to gas and ash. The pressure could be relieved slowly, and the ashes provided for burial. The victim could even be left in the chamber to decide when to detonate the charge himself, if he desired. That would be my choice, but it would no doubt fail the unusual test in the courts!

    This seems to me to be a most practical method to achieve the instant death Kozinski obviously thinks is least cruel. I don't know what to do about the unusual thing, and I suspect it is little pondered. Maybe we should ponder it, if the society is not going to come to its senses on the death penalty, and technology of death advances to allow truly less cruel methods.

    Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't.
    Mark Twain

    by phaktor on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:06:30 AM PDT

  •  Tipped & rec'ed nt (0+ / 0-)

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:23:58 AM PDT

  •  Why fuck around w/all these mysterious drugs? (0+ / 0-)

    Why don't they just shoot the guy?

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:44:32 AM PDT

  •  USA now tortures US Citizens (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

       This 2 hour period of ***  that results in the death of a human - is by GWB definition: Bybee memo  = TORTURE, because it ended in death.  

         And for that interpretation, GWB rewarded him with a Federal Judgeship.


    •  Now? Always, since they had a lynching by (0+ / 0-)

      the NYPD last week.

      Americans love torture because that is why this country was founded, to oppress.

      This country premise has always been a lie.

      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

      by a2nite on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:31:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Karma (0+ / 0-)

    paid another one a visit. Cruel and unusual punishment? Just look up his case and see how he treated the woman he killed. You can read it here.

    Jul 24, 2014 10:07 By Jessica Best
    Joseph Wood was convicted of killing his ex and her father, telling his former partner: 'I told you I was going to do this... I have to kill you'

    The death row inmate who took two hours to die in a botched execution was convicted of killing his ex and her father in a callous shooting 25 years ago.

    Joseph Wood, 55 at the time of his death, carried out the double murder in August 1989 when he shot his former partner Debbie Dietz and her father Gene at their family-run car body shop in Tuscon, Arizona.

    Wood, who was said to have assaulted Debbie during their relationship, walked into Dietz and Sons Auto Paint and Body Shop and shot 55-year-old Gene in the chest.

    Then, as a desperate Debbie tried to phone for help, Wood grabbed her round the neck.

    The Arizona Daily Star reports that witnesses heard him tell his her "I told you I was going to do it. I love you. I have to kill you, b**" before also shooting the 29-year-old fatally in the chest.

    When police arrived Wood turned his gun on officers, prompting them to open fire and shoot him nine times.

    During his trial in 1991, Wood's lawyers blamed his behaviour on the fact he had been an alcoholic and a drug user, but it took a jury just over an hour to convict him.

    And despite Arizona's governor ordering a review into why Wood's execution took so long, Gene Dietz's daughter Jeanne Brown told the Arizona Daily Star she did not think her father's killer had suffered.

    Ms Brown, who attended the execution, said: "You don't know what excruciating is."

    "Excruciating is seeing your dad lying in a pool of blood."

    Tell me, are any of you who condemn capital punishment survivors of crime, have any of your loved ones been victims of heinous murders?  My father was murdered, a Dear Friend of mine was strangled to death.

    Capital punishment is justice to victims and their families and friends. I'd say that Karma once again proved its existence.

  •  I expect some right-winger, (0+ / 0-)

    possibly the governor of Texas, to weigh in on this and say state executioners need more practice.

    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." -- Neil DeGrasse Tyson/// "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." -- Aldous Huxley

    by ThePhlebob on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:42:42 AM PDT

  •  They did it on purpose (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    All things are measured by effect. Proper analysis is near impossible without devotion to that first principle.

    Therefore, if state leaders have pivoted recently toward some hush policy which has as its GOAL to botch executions, the collective intellect should be able to articulate what the gain of that policy would be.

    By collective intellect, we mean "that which gives rise to a general consensus of the wise". And by gain, we mean effect.

    The collective intellect can articulate SEVERAL gains such a policy could be expected to reap, not the least of which is the maintenance of a predefined social order, (in this case the institutional subjugation of non-European stock at the hands of inter-European stock), aka the status quo. This and similar social engineering policies succeed by taking advantage of something all humans have in common: the capacity for pattern recognition.

    Pattern recognition is a really big deal. Let's take the African American experience as a prime example. When this particular non-European human scans the lay of the land he or she is unable to NOT see slavery, Jim Crow, disproportionate levels of mass incarceration and, now, (despite the modern era), the legal, prolonged, concealed, excruciating torture of inmates who are far more likely to be black than to be white, and whose ignominious fate need not concern itself with even getting the facts straight from day to day (which is to say, should be handled as ignominious but is not).

    Of all possible causes, the simplest or most obvious one is almost always the responsible agent. Known as Occam's Razor, without devotion to this second principle, proper analysis is also likely to elude.

    Since we're each fitted with a capacity for pattern recognition, it should be no surprise that the collective intellect finds itself so readily attuned to the 'proposition' that the recently botched executions entail of 'purpose' or intent on the part of government officials. This rather speaks for itself in a way. But more importantly, per Occam's Razor, such conspiratorial notions also happen to pass the smell test of pure logic. And that's what counts.

    A child's mind could guess perhaps that the cause of one such tragedy is having had her ice cream cone fall to the floor. A teen's mind might make a similar attribution to the downing of a jet. The sophisticated mind of an adult might assign it to some specific legislation signed by Obama on some wholly auspicious event. But each of these explanans grows only slightly less weak in series only because they themselves, rather than the thinkers, become more integrally complex in scope or, more clearly, because they become more powerful as a sum of the many forces which each such integral allows for. (A system is integrally complex any time its state, its aggregate of perceptible effects, shares the same distinct known causes which whenever so joined can be seen to lead to the same known outcomes, i.e. the same state.)

    Occam's Razor disallows of any more than a single explanans. It waits for the collective intellect to select just one candidate from all available integrally complex systems, just like all the news channels do (try to do, pretend to try to do, etc). If we fail to pull it off in the moment, chances are pretty good it'll get done for us over time. History has a way of sorting it all out. But it need not be so mysterious really. The way it works can be outlined in relatively few words.

    The chosen candidate will always be the one which is most highly differentiable when compared to a null system. (We compare the candidates to each other only en route to accomplishing this step.) This means by definition that the explanans is characterized by the highest possible valence (or as some might say, divalence, or vectorization). The vector's directional component is simply a total count of distinct known causes. The vector's rate component uses valuation tables and then assigns quanta to each member based on the quality of its assessed impact.

    When we pan the field here for explanans, Occam's Razor leaves no other candidate in play other than "political intent based in the desire to maintain the status quo". When we work backward from effect, (we chose only one of several possible effects), this is where we land. And while, yes, other explananda, (other effects), can be scrutinized and understood to have other possible explanans than this one, it turns out not to matter, so to speak, because the majority of them ALSO have as their explanans THIS one. In fact, if we can see it, the seive we just ran everything through is the same seive through which we must filter even the multiple seives before we derive a proper analysis.

    In short, they did it on purpose. They're DOING it on purpose. This includes flagrantly treating the facts like they don't matter. It's not that it makes them happy (gleeful). They're not focused on 'ephemera'. They're focused on being effective. Openly mishandling the facts enhances the effect they're trying to have. It's all about intimidation. It always has been.

    THEY know we'll know that. In fact, they know we'll ALL know it. But they also know that people who share in their divisive, colonialist ideology will prudently deny any comprehension of such things. Birds of a feather. (That's what integrally complex systems are.) Sadly, some won't even realize there own denial, which is why there needs to be a collective intellect rather than a king, as kings have surely been led about unawares.

    [By we, we mean I to the extent that I are the same in the way we think.]

  •  I don't mind if we give cold-blooded killers... (0+ / 0-)

    life in prison, as long as its not a lavish prison with all kinds of amenities.

    It should be a tiny rough concrete cell with a jute mat for a bed. Meals should be enough to barely subsist on.

    Let 'em out for a few minutes a day to blow the stink off of them.

    One visitor per month, for 10 minutes.

    That's it!

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