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While no one deserves to die in a war, of the estimated 30,000 Libyans to die in the struggle to overthrow Mummar Qaddafi, no one else can be said to have had it coming more than Mummar Qaddafi. Not only did he rule for more than 40 years by using terror, he had tens of thousands murdered, he conducted his 10 month campaign to stay in power with the utmost brutality. Most of those 30,000 souls were Libyan civilians killed by Qaddafi with artillery, tanks, snipers and cluster bombs. He targeted civilian to the end and so made the UN mission to protect them synonymous with ending his rule. So I find it odd that many on the left single out the killing of Mummar Qaddafi to demand investigation and justice for.

During the ten month revolutionary struggle the goal of the vast majority of Libyans was to overthrow Qaddafi but the cynical left developed its own narrative for what they referred to as regime change. A regime change they opposed. They fought to extend Qaddafi's rule just as they fight to extend Assad's rule today.

They had no opinion on the struggle in Libya until NATO got involved, then "as they saw it" it was just another "War for Oil", just another Iraq. As spectators to history, they declared "we've been through this movie before." Usually that meant the rebels and the NTC where seen as agents of imperialism, and the depth and breath of the Libyan opposition was denied.

This was all done in the name of "opposing our own bourgeois" but its central foundation has been a cynical appreciation of the revolutionary movement of the Libyan people.

A year ago, this whole crowd was sure that NATO intervention would lead to a NATO occupation of Libya 'ala Iraq or Afghanistan. Clearly that hasn't happened. Those that predicted such NATO "boots on the ground", and that's what they meant at the time, where wrong. That did not happen.

That is just one thing, on top of many, many things they got wrong about the Libyan Revolution, but rather that admit they were wrong about that and maybe some other things and being so bold as to make a reappraisal of their views on Libya, they cling to those views.

They welcome any bad news from Libya and use it to support their view that the revolution in Libya is a bad thing and shouldn't have happened. They find themselves quoting favorably from the MSM that has it's own reasons for pouring cold water on post-Qaddafi Libya. They take every outbreak of violence and every injustice still happening in revolutionary Libya, blow it all out of proportion, and talk of "chaos" in Libya.

The post war violence in Libya is nothing like it was in Iraq, and for that matter still is 8 years latter. The electricity is still on in Libya. Schools are back in session, mail is being delivered, oil production is back up, Internet is back up, and people are getting back to work. But these anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionaries only look for signs of "chaos."

Over 2.7 million people have registered all over Libya for national elections on June 19th or early July [there is talk of a short delay as I write this]  Misrata and Benghazi already had local elections. Libyans all over the world are registering at their still functioning embassies and all these people can talk about is "no functioning government" in Libya.

They still promote the view that the Libyan Revolution is a fake one ginned up by western imperialism and the National Transitional Council NATO puppets.  So now I have some questions for these folks. If the Libyan Revolution was orchestrated by US imperialism and the NTC a NATO puppet regime:

1.) Why are there no NATO bases in Libya?

2.) Why are there no NATO troops in Libya?

3.) Why did they refuse to turn over the 'so-called' Lockerbee Bomber as demanded by the West?

4.) Why did they stop and expose the CIA's special rendition program in Libya?

5.) Why is the revolutionary commander of Tripoli Head of the Military Council of Tripoli, Abdel Hakim Belhaj suing former British FM Jack Straw?

During the Libyan Revolution, the pro-Qaddafi forces, with help from Russia and Iran, developed this fantastic network of Internet websites and blogs that spread Qaddafi's war stories far and wide so that they would be replicated so many times that they would be the first thing found by the search engines.

Now that the real facts of the situation in Libya last year are coming to light we are in a position to compare the Qaddafi lies, and those of his parrots with the reality on the ground. Let's take just one example  - the NATO March 19 bombing of Libya. From the AJE tapes released last month of phone calls between Qaddafi and his cronies we have this.

A crowd of hundreds, many wearing green to show their support for Muammar Gaddafi, gathered in Tripoli on March 20 for a mass funeral. They were burying dozens of civilians - some of them children - killed overnight in NATO airstrikes.

Or so they were told. Among the thousands of wiretapped conversations obtained by Al Jazeera are several which show this “funeral” was actually a bit of stage-managed propaganda, organized by Tayeb El Safi, one of Gaddafi’s most trusted henchmen.

The day before the funeral, El Safi and an unknown caller can be heard joking about a NATO airstrike which destroyed an office used by Gaddafi’s aides.

    El Safi: They hit our location [laughter].

    Caller: The office?

    El Safi: Yes, the office. The office where we used to meet, the High Commission for Children.

    Caller: No! [laughter] When?

    El Safi: We need to put children there and take the media there in the evening. Tomorrow, let’s organize a huge funeral in Green Square [Martyrs’ Square]. We need to get some coffins. From here and there, you know what I mean. We need revolutionary youth with green flags and pictures of the leader.

El Safi and his aides moved ahead with the plan, but they encountered a problem: The cemetery they planned to use couldn't accommodate the huge number of "martyrs" the government planned to bury.

    Caller: The cemetery of Al Hani only has three available places.

    El Safi: Okay, move them to Al Hansheer [cemetery]. Get ready, I'll tell you now.

    Caller: How many?

    El Safi: 48 martyrs.

Witnesses would recall later that the funeral did seem a bit odd - that no family members showed up to mourn their dead relatives.  “We didn’t know who they were. There were no death certificates. There were no relatives who later came for them,” Faraj Al Ghyriani, a Tripoli resident who attended the funeral, told Al Jazeera. “I know that inside the coffins were just people who died of old age, or mercenaries. They were so stupid that they had the same name on two different coffins.”

Global Research was one website that was quick to promote Qaddafi's BS on this attack. Here is what Global Research had to say about this:
   The Bombing of Civilian Targets

    The objective is not to come to the rescue of civilians.

    Quite the opposite. Both military as well as civilian targets have been pre-selected.

    Civilian casualties are intentional. They are not the result of "collateral damage".

    Early reports confirm that hospitals, civilian airports and government buildings have been bombed.

    Within hours of the air attacks, a Libyan government health official "said the death toll from the Western air strikes had risen to 64 on Sunday after some of the wounded died." The number of wounded was of the order of 150. (Montreal Gazette, Gadhafi hurls defiance as allied forces strike Libya, March 19, 2011).

       These deaths resulting from US-NATO missiles and aerial bombings are either denied or casually dismissed as `collateral damage`.

Workers World Party organized protests against this attack, completely buying the Qaddafi story. so did the ANSWER Coalition:
On March 20, thousands demonstrated in Los Angeles to say no to war and occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. The demonstration was called by the Answer Coalition. Libya was clearly on the minds of everyone there and news of the criminal attack electrified the demonstration. The announcement of yet another imperialist war was booed and jeered as the words crawled across an electronic sign on CNN’s L.A. office.

The International Action Center distributed a statement denouncing the attack on Libya. The next day the IAC held an emergency demonstration at the Westwood Federal Building to demand an end to U.S., French and British bombing of Libya. Members of BAYAN-USA, the All African Peoples Revolutionary Party — GC, Unión del Barrio and Anti-Racist Action also participated. The action was covered by ABC, Fox, Telemundo and Univisión.

Now they are organizing protests against US intervention in Syria. I received a call just yesterday from the IAC calling on me to support Assad at their up coming pro-Assad Rally - No US/NATO War Against the Syrian People! Apparently the war that the Assad regime is currently waging against the Syrian people is not to be protested, only an extremely unlikely one by the US and NATO.
Assad is current slaughtering thousands of Syrians so naturally they are opposed to "regime change" just as they were when Qaddafi was killing Libyans. They wish he was still at it.

Some Qaddafi supporters insist things really are the way they saw them and there is a US occupation of Libya.  Cynthia McKinney claims that US troops are about to land in Libya any minute, if they aren't already there. She posted this explosive story on her blog on January 13, 2012:

Why is President Obama sending 12, 000 U.S. troops to Libya?

Hello fellow activists for peace,

It is with great disappointment that I receive the news from foreign media publications and Libyan sources that our President now has 12,000 U.S. troops stationed in Malta and they are about to make their descent into Libya.

This claim was immediately disputed by both Malta and the US embassy:
The US Embassy in a single line statement this morning reiterated the Maltese government's statement categorically denying claims that there are US troops in Malta.

The government's statement was issued two days ago after former US Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney said in a blog that "12,000 U.S. troops (are) stationed in Malta and they are about to make their descent into Libya".

and ridiculed by a local Maltese blogger:
As a resident of Malta, I can guarantee her – and you – that this is untrue. There are no 12,000 US soldiers stationed on Malta. And trust me, this island is so small, I would have seen them. There isn’t enough space for 12,000 troops to hide, especially not if they have the typical soldiers’ equipment of tanks, artillery, helicopters et cetera with them. – To put things into perspective: the whole military of Malta is 2,140 troops strong. Even at the height of World War II, when Malta was hotly fought over as the central location in the Mediterranean, no more than 26,000 troops stationed on Malta.

Granted, I did see the USS Whidbey Island in port in Valletta last Friday, but this ship only has a crew of about 400 sailors.

Also, I can’t see why US forces would go to Libya now. Gaddafi is dead, Libya is liberated, the job is done.

Ms McKinney either has no idea about international politics and the state of the world, or she is one of these conspiracy gurus, or she doesn’t know where Malta is and confused it with something else. Either way, it’s very embarrassing for a former US Congresswoman to make these ridiculous statements.

Its been six months since Cynthia McKinney made her prediction and we are still waiting for those US troops to make themselves known.

For more background on the Libyan Revolution and links to lots of information see my other writings at the DailyKos and WikiLeaks Central:
Another "Houla style" massacre in Syria
Libya's Qaddafi helped US & Israel against Iran in Olympic GamesWhy is Russia demanding NATO boots on the ground in Libya?
#LyElect Libyans register to vote 1st time in 60 years
Libya's Revolution: How We Won - The Internationale in the 21st Century
Good News from Libya
On Libya & Glenn Greenwald: Are the anti-interventionists becoming counter-revolutionaries?
UN: NATO killed 60 civilians in Libya
Libya in the news today
Amnesty International on Libya again
The Current Situation in Libya
Democracy Now & Amy Goodman gets it wrong again.
Why is Chris Hedges calling for "boots on the ground" in Libya?
The Worm Has Turned: Good Film on Libyan Revolution from PressTV
Why NATO's mission in Libya isn't over yet
Libya's Freedom Fighters: How They Won
Racism in Libya
Abdul Rahman Gave his Eyes to See the End of Qaddafi
BREAKING: Secret files reveal Dennis Kucinich talks with Qaddafi Regime
BREAKING: Libyan TNC won't extradite Lockerbie bomber
Who really beat Qaddafi?
#Feb17: @NATO Please help MEDEVAC wounded from #Libya
What should those that opposed NATO's intervention in Libya demand now?
BREAKING: Qaddafi's Tripoli Compound Falls!
Does PDA Support Qaddafi?
BREAKING: Operation Mermaid Dawn, the Battle to Liberate Tripoli is Joined
Helter Skelter: Qaddafi's African Adventure
Qaddafi's Long Arm
SCOOP: My Lai or Qaddafi Lie? More on the 85 Civilians presumed killed by NATO
Did NATO kill 85 Libyan Villagers As Qaddafi Regime Contends?
CCDS Statement on Libya - a Critique
The Assassination of General Abdul Fattah Younis
NATO over Tripoli - Air Strikes in the Age of Twitter
How Many Libyans has NATO Killed?
Qaddafi Terror Files Start to Trickle Out!
Have Libyan Rebels Committed Human Rights Abuses?
Tripoli Green Square Reality Check
Behind the Green Curtain: Libya Today
Gilbert Achcar on the Libyan situation and the Left
NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths NOT!
2011-07-01 Qaddafi's Million Man March
NATO's Game Plan in Libya
February 21st - Tripoli's Long Night
Did Qaddafi Bomb Peaceful Protesters?
Tripoli Burn Notice
Libyans, Palestinians & Israelis
'Brother' Qaddafi Indicted plus Libya & Syria: Dueling Rally Photofinishs
An Open Letter to ANSWER
ANSWER answers me
2011-06-22 No Libyans allowed at ANSWER Libya Forum
Are they throwing babies out of incubators yet?
Continuing Discussion with a Gaddafi Supporter
Boston Globe oped supports Gaddafi with fraudulent journalism
2011-04-13 Doha summit supports Libyan rebels
Current Events in Libya
Amonpour Plays Softball with Gaddafi
Arming Gaddfi
North African Revolution Continues
Is Libya Next? Anonymous Debates New Operation
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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 0-)

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 11:40:04 AM PDT

  •  Damnit, Clay... (0+ / 0-)

    You've given the game away now. Global Research is one of the most darkly entertaining sites around, a fools' paradise which is nonetheless depressingly useful for predicting some of the delusional and conspiratorial claptrap we read here.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 12:08:53 PM PDT

  •  Prof. Juan Cole had an interesting post (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angry marmot

    about Libya a few days ago: Despite Airport Incident, Henry Kissinger is Wrong about Libya.
    He found life there quite normal and is optimistic about Libya's future.  In contrast, Cole says,

    There is a kind of black legend about Libya, that it has become a failed state and is a mess, that there are armed militiamen everywhere, that everybody is a secessionist, that the transitional government is not doing anything, that people of subsaharan African heritage are bothered in the streets, etc., etc. The black legend is promoted in part by remnants of the Qaddafi regime and his admirers in the West, in part by overly anxious middle class Libyans navigating an admittedly difficult transition, in part by media editors looking for a dramatic story.

    Henry Kissinger, in his recent op-ed against intervention in Syria, listed the erasure of the Libyan state as an argument against such interventions. I read the allegation with disbelief.

    The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right. -- Judge Learned Hand, May 21, 1944

    by ybruti on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 01:31:54 PM PDT

    •  Here's the full Kissinger article (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Kissinger only discusses Libya in passing. His main thrust is diplomacy and maintaining international order.

      Syrian intervention risks upsetting global order

      The Arab Spring is generally discussed in terms of the prospects for democracy. Equally significant is the increasing appeal — most recently in Syria — of outside intervention to bring about regime change, overturning prevalent notions of international order.
      If adopted as a principle of foreign policy, this form of intervention raises broader questions for U.S. strategy. Does America consider itself obliged to support every popular uprising against any non-democratic government, including those heretofore considered important in sustaining the international system? Is, for example, Saudi Arabia an ally only until public demonstrations develop on its territory? Are we prepared to concede to other states the right to intervene elsewhere on behalf of coreligionists or ethnic kin?

      At the same time, traditional strategic imperatives have not disappeared. Regime change, almost by definition, generates an imperative for nation-building. Failing that, the international order itself begins to disintegrate. Blank spaces denoting lawlessness may come to dominate the map, as has already occurred in Yemen, Somalia, northern Mali, Libya and northwestern Pakistan, and may yet happen in Syria. The collapse of the state may turn its territory into a base for terrorism or arms supply against neighbors who, in the absence of any central authority, will have no means to counteract them.

      Kissinger is correct. At this time, the courts and police forces in Libya do not have full control of the country.

      Yaara Bou Melhem, reporter with SBS Dateline, Australia, has also traveled to Libya after the fall of Gadaffi. This is a documentary she made:

      Lawless Libya - video 19:28
      SBS Dateline

      Gaddafi may have gone from Libya amid scenes of celebration, but what’s left behind is a country in chaos.

      Heavily armed rebels still control much of the country, with towns in ruins, infrastructure destroyed and a justice system struggling to get back on track.

      Dateline’s Yaara Bou Melhem gets rare access to the prisons where thousands of people, perceived to have sided with the former regime, are being held indefinitely without charge.  

      She also visits the country’s sprawling refugee camps to document stories of torture and abuse.

      Elections take place in June, amid new tension over a split between the country’s east and west, so what does the future hold for Libya?

      •  Claudius, does it make sense that some hundreds (0+ / 0-)

        possibly thousands of Quaddafis most reliable henchmen are in custody right now, and possibly will face a trial at some point down the road when a civil tribunal can be convened and evidence sorted out and presented to justify why these people are being held?

        They just didn't disappear and go away, you know.  The very wealthy probably have left with everything they can put their hands on, but many were trapped when Quaddafi was finally defeated.  Those that didn't get summary justice were incarcerated.

        That is a good thing, not a bad thing. At some point the values of really serious crimes versus the ordinary killings that happen in war will be sorted and most of these people will go home but some were criminals before the war to liberate Libya and compounded it by their acts during the war.

        That they are being held is a sign of normalcy at this point.  they weren't massacred in toto as so many Libyans were by Quaddafi forces.

        This currently under construction..

        by BeeDeeS on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 05:33:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The US tried that game in Iraq. You saw where (0+ / 0-)

          it got them. There has to be some reconciliation. Without it, there will be no healing, just revenge. Look to Misurata for

          Abdel Jalil wants what Libyans don’t: Reconciliation with Gathafi remnants
          "Abdel Jalil must explain the motives that prompted him to take this initiative without consulting the council," Intissar Al-Akili, a member of the ruling National Transitional Council (NTC), said.
          Sallabi said that he was tasked by Abdel Jalil to "hold talks with Libyans of the former regime to see how to... alleviate the suffering and bring together Libyans in a state of justice, liberty, equality and law."

          He added that the discussions centred on national reconciliation, reactivating the judiciary, and the right of the relatives of ex-regime supporters abroad to access consular services and participate in upcoming elections.

          Thousands remain in secret Libya militia prisons: UN
          May 10, 2012

          UNITED NATIONS — About 4,000 accused supporters of former dictator Moamer Kadhafi are still being held in Libyan militia detention centers, often in secret and many are tortured, a UN envoy said Thursday.

          Ian Martin, head of the UN mission to Libya, said good progress was being made toward the country's first democratic election, but militia prisons were one of a number of "serious obstacles" to establishing the rule of law.

          Libya is far from being stabilized at this time. Here's an interesting report from Benghazi on Thursday:
          Radical Islamists threaten Libya elections
          June 09, 2012

          TRIPOLI: Hundreds of armed men calling for Islamic law staged a demonstration Thursday in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, the latest sign of a growing Islamist push in the country ahead of scheduled elections.

          More than 300 men rallied in Benghazi’s iconic Freedom Square, some of them on vehicles mounted with anti-aircraft guns and heavy weapons, an AFP photographer reported.

          “We will not be under a government that doesn’t rule in accordance with what God has mandated [in the Koran]” and “Democracy is a Western system of government in contradiction with the Islamic way” read some signs.

          Other protesters had black banners with “There is no God but God” written in white.
          The National Transitional Council is also tackling periodic flare-ups of tribal violence, mostly in border areas linked to smuggling routes, deadly tensions rooted in differences of allegiance in the war and calls for autonomy in the oil-rich east.

          That they are being held is a sign of normalcy at this point
          Seven months after Gaddafi’s death, Libyan rebels still out for revenge

          A new video of torture in Libya has surfaced on the Internet. The victim is allegedly a former supporter of ex-Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi. According to our Libyan Observer, this kind of vengeful brutality often goes unpunished.
          One of our Observers in Misrata confirms that the accent of the men in the video matches that of his hometown. The men are dressed in military garb and accompanied by two teenage boys, who take turns beating the prisoner. The victim can be seen lying on the ground with his hands tied behind his back with wire (at 2’19 minutes, a guard can be seen tightening the binds.) His feet are bare, and tied to the branch of a tree. The men beat the soles of the prisoners’ feet repeatedly with a branch and a rubber stick while shouting obscenities at him.
          Of course, the brutality displayed by Gaddafi’s soldiers does not in any way justify the actions committed in this video. As a human rights lawyer, I believe that every person is entitled to a fair trial – and the justice system must decide what punishment to inflict. Unfortunately, the brutal methods employed by former rebels are no different than that displayed by Gaddafi’s soldiers. The two teenagers seen beating the prisoner in the video are proof of this.

  •  Got a link for the 30K figure? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Claudius Bombarnac

    "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 06:21:07 PM PDT

    •  Here's the best estimates from various sources (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Casualties of the Libyan civil war

      The only source for the 30K figure I've found is the NTC and John McCain.

      The problem with accounting for civilian deaths in a civil war or insurgency is that the fighters are civilians who have taken up arms. If they are going towards battle, they are rebel fighters. If they are running away, they become 'civilians'. Civilians who supported the government become 'mercenaries' or 'traitors' to the cause and are fair game. Civilians who support rebel fighters remain 'civilian'.

      All conflicts between armed organized military and armed civilians can be propagandized in this manner.

      •  What a mess. It appears they can go bombs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Claudius Bombarnac

        away anytime they choose at this point in Syria.  Then on to Iran.  The propaganda is so blatant now, right out in the open for all to see.   Except few still do.   This diarist, I haven't figured out yet.  Very strange persistence on this.

        "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 10:17:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The thing to remember about wikipedia is that (0+ / 0-)

        anyone can post anything until it is challenged. I found it interesting that the cite a source that includes in its list:

        The Libyan official sources claimed that at least between 64 and 90 people were killed during the bombardments on the first two days of the U.N. intervention and another 150 had been wounded.[21]
        That is the same bombing that Qaddafi's cronies were laughing about and plotting to bring babies to above so that is the quality of your data.

        The NTC, as the function government of Libya is the only organization capable of having a credible count of the war dead, John McCain couldn't have an independent estimate and you know it. That's BS.

        Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

        by Clay Claiborne on Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 11:24:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Preview of my next diary on Libya (0+ / 0-)

    And from the Libyan Tweepforum, one of the many English language forums to come forward since the revolution we have another take on the chaos in Libya:

    Libya takes steps toward democracy
    Opinion — June 8, 2012 at 11:21

    THE CLAIM that the NATO-backed overthrow of Moammar Gaddafi has produced little but chaos in Libya got a boost on Monday when gunmen briefly took over Tripoli’s international airport, fired a few shots and grounded the international airliners that only recently had begun to arrive. Less well-reported was the follow-up: The dust-up ended in a few hours without fatalities, and the airport was back in business Tuesday. Such is Libya: a country awash in militias and weapons and almost entirely lacking in institutions that nevertheless appears to be taking a couple of steps toward a new democratic order for every step back.

    Among the recent steps forward: The interim government registered 90 percent of the country’s eligible voters for what would be the first elections in 60 years; 47 percent of those who signed up were women. Some 4,000 candidates have presented themselves for the election of a 200-member national assembly that will be charged with writing a new constitution, appointing a new interim government and overseeing another election a year from now.

    Local elections have already been held in the cities of Benghazi and Misrata. In those big cities and in Tripoli, policemen and the regular army keep order, and daily life has mostly returned to normal. So has the engine of the economy: Oil production has reached 90 percent of its prewar level. The government has recovered more than $100 billion in frozen reserves, giving it ample resources for a population of 6 million people.

    That still leaves plenty of dangers. Militias control parts of the country and hold hundreds of prisoners — alleged accomplices of the Qaddafi regime — in detention centers where human rights groups have documented abuses. Fighting among tribes and between Arab and sub-Saharan peoples has destabilized several southern cities. Al-Qaeda is seeking a foothold, and a militant Islamist militia leader, Abdel Hakim Belhadj, has formed one of the larger of the 140 new political parties.

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 08:40:31 PM PDT

  •  Don't worry about "the left." (0+ / 0-)

    There are a certain number of folks on the left who oppose U.S. military involvement for any reason, anywhere, on ideological grounds. To them, there's no distinction between the misadventure in Iraq and the U.N.-authorized intervention in Libya. Most of us know the difference.

    It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Fish in Illinois on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 05:08:29 AM PDT

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