Skip to main content

Follow clayclai on Twitter
In response to an email blast I sent out with the Subject line: Massive Effort to Prettify the Vietnam War has Started! and content similar to my most recent diary, I received this reply from fellow documentary filmmaker John Hankey, the maker of  JFK II:

Re: you need to get to work to prettify the results of the Libya "revolution" you cheerleaded so enthusiastically
That was the subject line. The body was simply a link to Thursday's LA Times article on Libya. Here is a link to the Shabab Libya reprint.

My response to John Hankey is as follows: Funny how you anti-interventions are so quick to cite the Main Stream Media uncritically to condemn the Libyan Revolution. If it really was a Western-backed coup, I should think they would be singing its praises now, instead we find that you and they are on the same side of the Libyan Revolution. That is why I call you anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionaries.

Below the fold we will turn our attention to the hatchet job that passes for journalist at the LA Times when it comes to Libya.

                LA ANSWER Coalition members block Libyans from Libyan Forum June 18, 2011

The article is titled  "Libya now ruled by the law of retribution" but this is immediately contradicted by the photo of Saif Qaddafi in detention below the title because if Libya were truly ruled by the law of retribution, that man would not still be alive.

Although the electricity is still on in Libya, the schools are back in session, people are getting back to work and oil production is now approaching pre-war levels, the focus of this article is what the LA Times considers the unduly harsh treatment of members and supporters of the Qaddafi regime.

Well, payback's a bitch. And then there is this:

History has shown that it is not enough for a revolutionary people to overthrow the old regime. If they are to consolidate the victory and be able to build on the freedom they have won with their blood, they must for a while, exercise a dictatorship over elements of the old regime.

Even though those elements may have formally been thrown out of power, they still retain many important advantages as compared to the revolutionaries. They have a certain know-how about making the society work, they retain their old contacts and generally a great amount of hidden wealth, and there is almost always international support for their counter-revolutionary plots. Even through the military phrase of the revolution may be over, wartime rules and attitudes cannot immediately be dispensed with. Even after they are defeated, elements of the old regime will still hold many of the levers of power in their hands. The LA Times article sees some of this contradiction when it notes:

the interim government is caught between the reality of having to engage with former Kadafi regime workers, who are highly trained and experienced in the machinations of governance, and its promises to hold to account those with blood on their hands.
Therefore it would be absolutely ludicrous for the victorious revolutionary people to allow all the elements of the old regime to remain at liberty just because they have laid down their arms, but this is exactly what the people at Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the LA Times seem to think should happen:
Retribution is the new law of the land in Libya. Summary executions, arbitrary arrests, torture and indefinite detention have emerged while the judicial system remains in a state of paralysis.

The result, rights groups charge, is an environment of impunity. In a country whose revolution's defining moment was arguably the apparent execution in October of Kadafi in captivity — a possible war crime that remains unpunished — dangerous precedents have been set.

I find it characteristic of this lot, that of all the atrocities commented in Libya, most at the behest of Mummar Qaddafi, it is his possible murder that they want to see punished first.

The truth is that they favor counter-revolution in Libya and so they are opposed to any revolutionary suppression of the old regime. That is the gist their fair sounding statement:

The issue is whether the law will be applied equally for pro- and anti-Kadafi factions.
Yes, that is the issue, because if the "anti-Qaddafi factions" i.e. the masses of people that organized themselves and shed much blood to overthrow a 42 year dictatorship, and the "pro-Qaddafi factions", i.e. the forces of the old regime, are treated equally under the law, that is all they need to restore their power.

Besides, whenever does that happen after a war? The pro- and anti-Kadafi factions, to use the LA Times happy terminology, just fought a viscous war that cost 30,000 lives and was imposed upon them by the pro-Qaddafi faction. Immediately after our own Civil War, were Northerners and Southerners treated the same under the law or were Federal troops sent down to Dixie to impose a dictatorship?

Libya's developing judicial system

While the LA Times writer would have you think that revolutionary Libya has no functioning judicial system, this article from Wednesday's Libya Herald tells a different story:

The governments of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus are to appeal the conviction of 24 of their nationals imprisoned for providing military assistance to the Qaddafi regime during last year’s revolution.

On Monday, the men were found guilty of a number of offences, including the setting-up surface-to-air missile platforms to target NATO aircraft. 19 Ukrainians were sentence to ten years hard labour, along with three Belarusians and a Russian. A second Russian national, said to be the coordinator of the group, was given life imprisonment.

“We respect the Libyan court, but we do not agree with the verdict”, said Oleg Nikolenko, First Secretary at the Ukrainian Embassy in Tripoli. “We do not believe the men are guilty. We want the decision to be reviewed and for the Libyan court to make another decision. We will appeal the verdict."

So does this one from Reuters on the same day:
TRIPOLI (Reuters) – The first trial of a senior Muammar Gaddafi-era official accused of crimes relating to last year’s war opened on Tuesday, in what will be seen as a test of the Libyan government’s ability to try high profile loyalists and family members of the ousted leader.

Under heavy security, Buzeid Dorda, a former intelligence chief arrested last September in Tripoli, appeared in the dock in the first such civilian hearing since last year’s uprising.

Judge Al-Ajaily Al-Maaloul read six charges against him – conspiring to kill civilians, providing weapons for the purpose of killing civilians, conspiring to provoke civil war, denying people their right to protest, unlawful detention and abuse of authority.

“I deny all these points. I will supply the evidence when I testify in court,” Dorda said.

The judge adjourned the trial until June 26, as demanded by defense lawyer Dhao Al-Mansouri Awon, who said he and his client needed more time to study the case files

However you look upon these proceedings, whether you agree with the verdicts or even the ordering of the trials, it is somewhat disingenuous to say "the judicial system remains in a state of paralysis" as the LA Times does without telling the reader any of this. Of course, from the POV of the MSM and the anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionary, a proper judicial system would have made trying Mummar Qaddafi's alleged murders their first priority.

Next to seeing the killers of Mummar Qaddafi brought to trial, they believe that Saif Qaddafi can't get a fair trial in Libya and want to see him transfered to the Hague for trial by the International Criminal Court. The LA Times continues:

The position of Kadafi's onetime heir-apparent, son Seif Islam, underscores the problem. The International Criminal Court wants him transferred and tried in The Hague. The interim government insists on a trial in Libya but remains unable to extricate him from detention in the former rebel stronghold of Zintan, whose officials want him tried in that city.

Meanwhile, Seif Islam Kadafi and 8,000 other detainees held without judicial review remain in a state of limbo, guilty until proved innocent.

Frankly, I don't see how Saif Qaddafi can be found innocent and justice served at the same time. As for the 8,000 detainees, they of course should be subjected to judicial review ASAP, however the number does not seem unduly large given the circumstances. A May 2012 UN report by Ian Martin put the number at 7,000:
Martin said he believes the Libyan government is committed to ensuring access to justice for its citizens but "serious obstacles are hampering this process."

The transfer of prisons to the Ministry of Justice is progressing very slowly, with just 31 facilities and 3,000 detainees now under its control, Martin said.

"An additional number of detainees, perhaps around 4,000, are still in the custody of brigades, either at formal or secret detention facilities," he said.

Martin said "cases of mistreatment and torture of detainees continue," citing the deaths of three people at a detention center in Misrata on April 13.

According to an article in the Guardian Wednesday:
The US is backing Libya in its dispute with the International Criminal Court as Tripoli and The Hague wrestle over jurisdiction to try Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the son of the former dictator.

The US war crimes chief, Stephen Rapp, said Washington would like to see Gaddafi face a Libyan court because national justice is preferable
"Our preference is to try cases in the national system if you can have a process there that meets minimal standards of fair justice. The Libyan government says they can do that," said Rapp. "We certainly would like to see the Libyans provide a fair and appropriate justice at the national level. It won't be the same thing that happens in The Hague but The Hague is only for a relative handful of cases and the international system we see developing is one where countries do these cases themselves with international assistance, sometimes with international participation."
The new administration in Tripoli argues that Gaddafi should be tried at the scene of his crimes, Libya. The ICC last week dropped its demand that he be immediately handed over and said that he can remain in Libya while the court decides who has first claim.

I would also point out that Saif Qaddafi is being held by the Zintan Brigade with the agreement of the NTC. When the Zintan Bridage turned over the Tripoli Airport to the NTC, they stated publicly that they would turn Saif Qaddafi over to the NTC on demand. When another brigade briefly took over the Tripoli Airport last week, it was the Zintan Brigade that got it back and turned it right over to the NTC again, so there is no reason to disbelieve their promises with regards to Saif Qaddafi. Just some stuff the LA Times article failed to mention on this topic that I thought you should know about.

The current situation in Libya

Since the point of the LA Times article and many other such pieces both from the bourgeois press and the anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionary media is to imply that Libya has no functioning government right now, it might be instructive to note some highlights of the government’s weekly press conference, June 7th:

Yesterday’s official weekly government press conference was dominated by the attack on Tripoli International Airport and the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi.

Although official spokesperson for the Prime Minister, Nasser Al-Mana , did his best to try and distract the general public away from the two biggest events of the week by making the media sit through nearly an hour of routine news before making his way to these attacks.

Tripoli Airport attack

Al-Mana said that ‘government institutions had no knowledge of the whereabouts of the missing person’, the Tarhuna military commander Abu-Ajilah Habshi, who was kidnapped by unknowns on Tripoli Airport road last Sunday. This was given as the reason by the Tarhuna militias for their attack on Tripoli Airport.

Nevertheless, he ‘condemned the kidnapping of anyone’ and he equally condemned ‘any attack on any public institution for any reason’.

The spokesperson revealed that the government had given orders to the Interior Ministry and the Army to use force against anyone who attacks government institutions. He confirmed that the airport was reclaimed within hours and that arrests were made and vehicles were held.

He pointed out that both Tarhuna Military and Local Councils had distanced themselves from this brigade from Tarhuna.

A committee had been formed to investigate the incident. Investigations were continuing.

When challenged by journalists as to how such a relatively small group of militias were able to occupy Tripoli airport, and how they were not spotted en route to the airport, the spokesperson admitted that ‘mistakes were made’ and that the government ‘should learn from these mistakes’.

Benghazi attack

The spokesperson had nothing new to add to the incident of the attack on the US consulate building in Benghazi. He confirmed it was some kind of homemade device and that it had hit the outside wall of the consulate causing little damage. He had no evidence of the people behind the attack. He said investigations were continuing.

More prisons and courts are ready and operational

The spokesperson announced that the Ministry of Justice reported that the second batch of members of the Justice Police had graduated. These are the official security personnel responsible for security at Libya’s prisons and courts.

He also pointed out the regular media reports of an increasing number of prisons being handed over to the government by militias.

He admitted, however, that because of ‘exceptional circumstances‘ quite a few state prisons or prisoners were still being secured by militias. He felt that the circumstances were now quickly changing as the state was slowly re-establishing itself and taking more and more control with each passing day.

‘The law’ is now in operation in Libya

Al-Mana also reviewed the two prominent court cases of the week of Qaddafi’s last foreign intelligence head, Abu Zaid Dorda, and the appeal against Law 37, which bans the glorification of Qaddafi and his ideas.

The spokesperson was eager to highlighting the fact that Libya’s court system was now operational and stressed that Libya was now a state of the law.

It’s an information war…

Al-Mana warned the media and the general public against the media war being conducted by the enemies of the new Libya. He warned against false facts and allegations such as the claim that Saif Al-Islam Qaddafi had escaped to a neighbouring country.

The spokesperson warned that the more stable and secure Libya became, the more effort its enemies made in an attempt to de-stabilize it.

And from the Libyan Tweepforum, one of the many English language forums to come forward since the revolution, we have another take on the chaos in Libya:
Libya takes steps toward democracy
Opinion — June 8, 2012 at 11:21

THE CLAIM that the NATO-backed overthrow of Moammar Gaddafi has produced little but chaos in Libya got a boost on Monday when gunmen briefly took over Tripoli’s international airport, fired a few shots and grounded the international airliners that only recently had begun to arrive. Less well-reported was the follow-up: The dust-up ended in a few hours without fatalities, and the airport was back in business Tuesday. Such is Libya: a country awash in militias and weapons and almost entirely lacking in institutions that nevertheless appears to be taking a couple of steps toward a new democratic order for every step back.

Among the recent steps forward: The interim government registered 90 percent of the country’s eligible voters for what would be the first elections in 60 years; 47 percent of those who signed up were women. Some 4,000 candidates have presented themselves for the election of a 200-member national assembly that will be charged with writing a new constitution, appointing a new interim government and overseeing another election a year from now.

Local elections have already been held in the cities of Benghazi and Misrata. In those big cities and in Tripoli, policemen and the regular army keep order, and daily life has mostly returned to normal. So has the engine of the economy: Oil production has reached 90 percent of its prewar level. The government has recovered more than $100 billion in frozen reserves, giving it ample resources for a population of 6 million people.

That still leaves plenty of dangers. Militias control parts of the country and hold hundreds of prisoners — alleged accomplices of the Qaddafi regime — in detention centers where human rights groups have documented abuses. Fighting among tribes and between Arab and sub-Saharan peoples has destabilized several southern cities. Al-Qaeda is seeking a foothold, and a militant Islamist militia leader, Abdel Hakim Belhadj, has formed one of the larger of the 140 new political parties.

The LA Times article didn't mention this positive stuff going on in Libya because that is not their mission. Anti-interventions turned counter-revolutionaries like John Hankley promote the LA Times take on Libya because they have the same mission.

For more background on the Libyan Revolution and links to lots of information see my other writings at the DailyKos and WikiLeaks Central:
Qaddafi lies live on after him
Another "Houla style" massacre in Syria
Libya's Qaddafi helped US & Israel against Iran in Olympic GamesWhy is Russia demanding NATO boots on the ground in Libya?
#LyElect Libyans register to vote 1st time in 60 years
Libya's Revolution: How We Won - The Internationale in the 21st Century
Good News from Libya
On Libya & Glenn Greenwald: Are the anti-interventionists becoming counter-revolutionaries?
UN: NATO killed 60 civilians in Libya
Libya in the news today
Amnesty International on Libya again
The Current Situation in Libya
Democracy Now & Amy Goodman gets it wrong again.
Why is Chris Hedges calling for "boots on the ground" in Libya?
The Worm Has Turned: Good Film on Libyan Revolution from PressTV
Why NATO's mission in Libya isn't over yet
Libya's Freedom Fighters: How They Won
Racism in Libya
Abdul Rahman Gave his Eyes to See the End of Qaddafi
BREAKING: Secret files reveal Dennis Kucinich talks with Qaddafi Regime
BREAKING: Libyan TNC won't extradite Lockerbie bomber
Who really beat Qaddafi?
#Feb17: @NATO Please help MEDEVAC wounded from #Libya
What should those that opposed NATO's intervention in Libya demand now?
BREAKING: Qaddafi's Tripoli Compound Falls!
Does PDA Support Qaddafi?
BREAKING: Operation Mermaid Dawn, the Battle to Liberate Tripoli is Joined
Helter Skelter: Qaddafi's African Adventure
Qaddafi's Long Arm
SCOOP: My Lai or Qaddafi Lie? More on the 85 Civilians presumed killed by NATO
Did NATO kill 85 Libyan Villagers As Qaddafi Regime Contends?
CCDS Statement on Libya - a Critique
The Assassination of General Abdul Fattah Younis
NATO over Tripoli - Air Strikes in the Age of Twitter
How Many Libyans has NATO Killed?
Qaddafi Terror Files Start to Trickle Out!
Have Libyan Rebels Committed Human Rights Abuses?
Tripoli Green Square Reality Check
Behind the Green Curtain: Libya Today
Gilbert Achcar on the Libyan situation and the Left
NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths NOT!
2011-07-01 Qaddafi's Million Man March
NATO's Game Plan in Libya
February 21st - Tripoli's Long Night
Did Qaddafi Bomb Peaceful Protesters?
Tripoli Burn Notice
Libyans, Palestinians & Israelis
'Brother' Qaddafi Indicted plus Libya & Syria: Dueling Rally Photofinishs
An Open Letter to ANSWER
ANSWER answers me
2011-06-22 No Libyans allowed at ANSWER Libya Forum
Are they throwing babies out of incubators yet?
Continuing Discussion with a Gaddafi Supporter
Boston Globe oped supports Gaddafi with fraudulent journalism
2011-04-13 Doha summit supports Libyan rebels
Current Events in Libya
Amonpour Plays Softball with Gaddafi
Arming Gaddfi
North African Revolution Continues
Is Libya Next? Anonymous Debates New Operation
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladasue, mookins, kartski, Karl Rover

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 09:00:05 AM PDT

  •  The treatment of several high profile prisoners (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FG, mookins, BigAlinWashSt, protectspice

    such as Saif Gaddafi and Sanussi is not indicative of how well the judicial system is working in Libya.

    UN Security Council: Press Libya on Impunity

    "The Security Council should make clear to the Libyan government that when it referred the situation to the ICC before the war, it never intended to allow a victors' justice," said Richard Dicker, international justice director at Human Rights Watch. "Human Rights Watch has documented horrendous crimes in Libya even after the end of Gaddafi's rule, and the NTC should know that the ICC can still probe abuses there."

    The new law, Law 38, On Some Procedures for the Transitional Period, says there shall be no penalty for "military, security, or civil actions dictated by the February 17 Revolution that were performed by revolutionaries with the goal of promoting or protecting the revolution." The imposition of this law appears to be a strong sign that the Libyan authorities are unwilling to investigate crimes committed by all sides, Human Rights Watch said.

    Any grant of amnesty by the NTC has no legally-binding effect on other national or international courts, such as the ICC, that have jurisdiction over serious violations of international law, Human Rights Watch said. The ICC has ongoing jurisdiction over war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in Libya since February 15, 2011, taking into account, among other factors, whether the Libyan authorities are willing and able to prosecute those responsible for these crimes.

    •  Law 38 is about exercising a revolutionary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      dictatorship, which you and these groups oppose.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 10:59:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Law 38 gives immunity to acts of violence (0+ / 0-)
        LFJL strongly condemns new laws breaching human rights and undermining the rule of law

        Lawyers for Justice in Libya (LFJL) strongly condemns laws 37 and 38 adopted by the Libyan National Transitional Council (the NTC) on 2 May as laws which breach fundamental human rights and freedoms and which represent a significant step backwards on Libya’s path to establishing a country built on human rights, the rule of law and democracy.
        Law 38 of 2012 on certain matters relating to transitional justice includes a complete amnesty for any “acts made necessary by the 17 February revolution” for its “success or protection”, whether such acts are of a military, security or civil nature.  This law represents a serious impediment to the establishment of the rule of law in Libya.  As with law 37, this law has terrifyingly familiar echoes of the Gaddafi era. The vague terms used in this law could lead to abuses in its implementation, including arbitrary detention. The NTC is enshrining the culture of impunity. Impunity for violations of human rights and war crimes resulting from a sense of revolutionary legitimacy is dangerous and perpetuates the culture that existed under the Gaddafi regime, where all was justified in the name of the 1969 Revolution....

  •  Houla (4+ / 0-)

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:09:41 AM PDT

    •  Glad to see this getting some light. These (3+ / 0-)

      reports were coming out almost immediately but were drowned out by the incessant propaganda from the MSM.  

      "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:14:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's a translation of the German report (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BigAlinWashSt, protectspice

      The horrors of Houla


      The past few days have three different sources based on testimony brought out more information about the drama in Houla that should be placed against the background of total anarchy, especially in the Homs-Hama region seems to dominate.  

    •  Another pro-Assad whitewash... (0+ / 0-)

      First it says:

      The massacre of over 90 Syrians which caught the world’s attention and renewed calls for war against the regime of Bashar al-Assad may have been carried out by rebel fighters, according to a new report.
      Then is said
      Initial eyewitness accounts of the massacre, relayed by major western media outlets and Human Rights Watch, described the massacre as having been the work of Syrian forces and their heavy artillery.
      Because by all accounts heavy artillery was used and the rebels don't have any.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 02:11:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The story kept changing. Who is telling the truth? (0+ / 0-)

        The story surrounding the circumstances of this massacre took place, changed indeed. Initially it was reported that the Syrian army for twelve hours with tanks shelled the village of Houla would have an anti-regime demonstration to disperse. During this bombardment were the 108 victims in Houla cases. Later it became clear that almost all the victims had been killed by a bullet or stab wounds, which was shot in the head at close. The Free Syrian Army began on Arab satellites to spread the message that "the murderous Shabihha from house to house were drawn." It is remarkable how little attention the international community to these two totally contradictory statements.

      •  Syrian rebels have access to heavy weapons (0+ / 0-)
        Syria not alone in killing civilians

        Syrian women walk next to a destroyed military tank in the northern town of Ariha, on the outskirts of Idlib, Syria, on Sunday. The U.N. said several weeks ago that thousands of people have been killed since the uprising began in March last year. (AP)

        As the violence intensifies and Syria hurtles ever closer to a full-out civil war, the usual suspects in the western media are beating the war drums and demanding a military intervention.

  •  BBC plays Hanky Panky (4+ / 0-)

    to support war against Syria

    But it's all ok, it's part of the PNAC agenda that makes America so "exceptional" we don't have to have any truth on our side, just a good enough lie to bomb the shit out of brown people.

    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. ~ Anatole France

    by ActivistGuy on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:15:13 AM PDT

    •  They told us what they were going to do but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      people just won't believe that Obama is following the same damn agenda set forth by PNAC.   Destabilize any country that is in the way, install a regime favorable to imperial, Israel, and Gulf Monarch interests and move on to the big prizes, Iran, Russia and China.  The neocons are the biggest cheerleaders for intervention in Syria, as they were with Libya, and the reason is obvious and it certainly isn't humanitarian.   This time they fucked up though and their plan is not working.  Unfortunately those that will pay the most are the Syrian people.  

      "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:24:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Libya is a destroyed country (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The new regime and its opposing factions are as bad as  Gaddaffi was.   Another example of why Iraq-style or Libya-style interventions are wrong and how destructive the outcome can be.

  •  Yes, this topic is going to be (0+ / 0-)


    There should have been no intervention at a minimum without full UN approvals for, well, "invervention". Yes, crimes need to be subject to judicial punishments. Otherwise there will be another revolution. And no stability.

    H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

    by Knarfc on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 02:28:38 PM PDT

  •  What is your stake in this? No, really. (0+ / 0-)

    You seem to be hellbent on whatever western injection can be had into these manufactured situations. Hobbyhorse? Or something deeper?

    Just curious, as only two or three other people on this site sem to even care, and those are mostly nonpartisan.

  •  Libya's problem of powerful local militias (0+ / 0-)

    and a weak central government.

    ICC lawyer held in Libya faces 45-day detention
    June 12, 2012

    TRIPOLI (Reuters) - An International Criminal Court lawyer and interpreter face 45 days in detention in Libya while investigations into their meeting with Muammar Gaddafi's captured son continue, a spokesman for the prosecutor-general's office said on Monday.
    Reflecting Libya's problem of powerful local militias and a weak central government, the Zintan brigade holding Saif al-Islam said on Saturday it would not agree to the government's request that it free the four ICC staff before questioning them.

    •  More on the developing ICC story in Zintan (0+ / 0-)
      Caught in Libya's web of reprisals

          by: Bruce Loudon
          From: The Australian
          June 12, 2012 12:00AM

      This the most explosive issue to confront Libya since the Arab Spring uprising that swept Muammar Gaddafi from power: who gets to put on trial and mete out justice to the deposed dictator's notorious son and right-hand man Saif al-Islam Gaddafi.
      NTC officials in Tripoli have repeatedly answered ICC demands to extradite Saif to The Hague by asserting that he was about to be transferred from the control of the Zintan militia for trial in Tripoli by Libyan judges under internationally acceptable legal standards.

      Fathi Baja, the NTC's head of political and international affairs, said last month that Saif would be tried "in a couple of weeks in Tripoli".

      But he admitted that negotiations with the Zintan militia were fraught. "They were saying that conditions for a trial don't exist in Tripoli. We say that this is the capital and we are a sovereign state," he added.

      That is the tug-of-war that Taylor appears to have been caught up in, and it's one that goes to the heart of just how much control the authorities installed in power in Tripoli by NATO have over the rest of the country.
      The court system, such as it is, remains largely non-functioning. Untold numbers of people are said to be languishing in prisons across the country, mostly in the hands of militia.

      "There is an ongoing problem of militias detaining people and the transitional government appearing not to be able to do anything about it," says Richard Dicker, head of Human Rights Watch's international justice program. "There are thousands of detainees who are beyond the reach and authority of the government in Tripoli."

    •  Reports by The Tripoli Post on ICC affair (0+ / 0-)
      The Full Story Behind the Arrest of ICC Four-member Team in Libya
      11/06/2012 04:04:00
      Zintan-- A team of four people allegedly working for the International Criminal Court (ICC) travels to Zintan city in Libya. The team is allowed by Libyan authorities to meet Seif Gaddafi who is in prison awaiting trial for crimes against humanity. Australian lawyer named Melinda Taylor and her Lebanese interpreter violated the international law as related to such sensitive issue.

      Taylor makes a Libyan national security breach and turns out to be a spy for an unknown party. She gets caught red handed, violating the Libyan people’s trust in the ICC and its employees from top down.
      In the unsigned letter from Seif to the ICC he claimed "there is no government or law in Libya" and that he was being "ill-treated", he said.

      The team was arrested as a result of the new development on Thursday but Ahmed Jehani, Libya's envoy to the international tribunal, says only two members of the team, Taylor and her Lebanese interpreter, Helen Assaf, are in detention.
      But Dr. Mohammed Abdulaziz, the Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister for International Affairs, announced that his government would ask the ICC to waive the lawyer's immunities so that formal investigations could begin.

    •  Arrested ICC lawyers “moved to jail” (0+ / 0-)
      Zintan: Arrested ICC lawyers “moved to jail”

      The BBC today reported that Zintan Brigade commander, Ajami al-Atiri had told them that Melinda Taylor, an Australian citizen, and her three companions from the International Criminal Court in the Hague, have been moved to a regular jail from the guest house where they had been held since their arrest last Thursday.
      Atiri told the BBC that the transfer to a jail had been made on orders from the Attorney General’s office and the Defence Ministry in Tripoli. This sits oddly with an earlier statement from the brigade commander, that even after several ‘phone calls from NTC chairman Mustafa Abdul Jalil, he had refused to release the lawyers.

      This latest development comes as an ICC team arrives in Tripoli along with Australian ambassador to Libya, David Ritchie, who is based in Rome. It was reported that the ICC party was hoping to travel to Zintan today to talk to their detained colleagues.

  •  British diplomatic convoy attacked by rocket (0+ / 0-)
    June 11, 2012

    BENGHAZI, Libya -- A British diplomatic convoy was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi on Monday, wounding one person, security and diplomatic sources said.

  •  The pillaging of Libya's oil is beginning (0+ / 0-)

    When the sanctions were lifted, Gaddafi gave very good terms to the oil companies as an incentive for them to come. The PSA's (production sharing agreements) were 50/50 for profits and production costs. As these contracts ended, Gaddafi changed the terms.

    In 2010, Petrocanada signed a contract that required $1 billion signing bonus, 15/85 production share and 100% development costs plus training and hiring of Libyan workers. There are several other companies that had signed similar contracts. They want out now. Without a strong man at the helm, these companies will walk all over the NOC to the detriment of the Libyan people. Time will tell.

    Shell’s Pulling Out of Libya: A Warning Message to both Oil Authorities, People

    In a statement on Monday Royal Dutch Shell announced it will cease exploration activities and abandon drilled wells in Libya citing harsh contracts and current insecurity as major factors in the decision.

    But since 2003 NOC embarked on transferring all contracts signed IOCs to the stringent EPSA IV model, which reduced IOCs’ profit shares in return for extending the period of their licenses.

    Many Libyan oil experts consider the terms of EPSA IV contracts to be favorable and transparent but remain amongst the toughest in oil industry. The EPSA IV agreements are not popular among IOCs and they have caused a number of them to pull out of the Libyan oil market in during the latter years of Gaddafi regime.

    It seems that the new Libyan authorities have been slow to meet the hopes of IOCs for more preferable terms and the current interim government would rather maintain the contracts that are based on EPSA IV agreements terms to stay the same.
    While Libya is keen to protect it sovereign assets, Libya's oil industry depends on the engagement of IOCs. Following Shells decision, Germany’s Wintershall the second largest IOC in Libya (accounting for nearly 6% of Libyan output) has issued a warning that the current terms could impact on decisions regarding future investment in Libya.

    •  Oh, If the NTC were puppets of NATO, and the (0+ / 0-)

      Libyan revolution a fake one orchestrated by the US, EU & UK, you'd think they would be giving Shell a sweetheart deal now. Instead they are bargaining hard and not cutting bargains with the NATO  countries.

      Bye Bye Shell. Hello BP !  Libya Herald

      So Shell walked be deal, BP had a quick line up pattern to fill the void, the Russians and getting back in and even the Chinese are talking to the Libyans about oil. Already oil production is up to 90% of 2010 levels.

      In today's world, I think the Libyans known there will be no problem selling all the oil they can produce at current market prices, and now without heavy Qaddafi carrying charges deducted before they saw penny one.  

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 02:58:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't say the NTC were puppets of NATO (0+ / 0-)

        BTW, the NTC has changed considerably since it was first formed. No one seems to know who all the 86 members are.

        you'd think they would be giving Shell a sweetheart deal now.
        The NOC cannot do a new deal until after the elections.
        But the email said it "will actively continue to engage with the (National Oil Co) and Libyan authorities" to explore other business opportunities.

        "This is not a country exit, and a Shell office will remain in Libya," it added.

        In today's world, I think the Libyans known there will be no problem selling all the oil they can produce at current market prices
        Libya does not get the full price per barrel. Each IOC negotiates a PSA with the NOC. The amount that the Libyan government/people gets depends on the terms of the PSA.

        BP got to renegotiate it's PSA under "force majeure". The new deal is secret.

        BP returning to Libya under new pact
        NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- BP PLC BP +0.50% said Tuesday it reached an agreement with Libya National Oil Corp. about returning to onshore and offshore oil and gas exploration blocks in the country. BP had declared a force majeure in Libya on Feb. 21, 2011. A force majeure means unforeseeable circumstances have prevented a party from fulfilling terms of a contract. BP said it signed a new pact with Nuri Berruien, chairman of Libya's state-run oil company.
      •  Looks like I was right. The Libyan people will (0+ / 0-)

        be getting less money for their oil when the new contracts come out. In 2010, Gaddafi was giving the oil companies 15% and keeping 85% for Libya. Want to make a bet that it will be 50/50 (or worse) in the future?

        Libya To Offer New Production-sharing Contracts

        VIENNA--Libya will offer new production-sharing agreements to international oil companies on improved terms to existing contracts, but this won't happen this year, said the country's Minister of Oil and Gas, Abdurahman Benyezza Wednesday.

        Libya isn't currently planning to revise the terms of existing contracts with foreign oil companies, but there may be a process to equalize the terms of new and existing contracts in the future, he said.

        "At the moment we are working on the [contract] models. We'll have to study and see where we can improve," Mr. Benyezza told reporters at the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries International Seminar in Vienna. "Production-sharing agreements will be the main type of contracts of course. New ones will not be [offered] this year."

        Whether existing contract holders will also be offered the same terms as newcomers has yet to be decided, he said.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site