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In the wake of President Obama's warning to the Assad regime that using "a whole bunch of chemical weapons" would be a "redline" that might cause him to rethink his approach of not interfering with the on-going carnage in Syria, the regime has slaughtered 630 civilians in Daraya, Syria this week without using any chemical weapons at all, according to a reports from the Local Coordinating Committee.

Daraya had been known for its peaceful resistance to the regime. Things didn't descend into chaos after the regime completely withdrew its security forces from the community several months ago. Instead, community activists and volunteers started running this community of 200,000 in the shadow of Damascus with a quiet efficiency that completely unnerved the regime. Without the regime forces, there were no ethnic clashes and very little crime. This was the regime's response to their non-violent opposition. All men found of "fighting age" were slaughtered but women and children weren't spared. They too were killed in large numbers.

These murders were predicted. They could have been prevented.

This is a massacre that the world let happen!

Obama's Treasury and Commerce departments are denying the opposition security software that is a matter of life and death to them!

Obama's CIA is even stopping the opposition from getting effective anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons from anyone!

President Obama, Don't stop others from helping these people defend themselves!

Never again say "Never Again." Don't tell that Lie!

We can't say we weren't warned!

We saw it coming. We just didn't do anything,

We watched it happen on Twitter and YouTube.


and elsewhere in Syria, the carnage goes on!

THEIR SCREAMS OF PAIN AND FEAR ARE DEAFENING AND HEARTBREAKING … BUT IS ANYONE LISTENING? Aleppo (Qady Al Asker): Aug 26, 2012 - Is anyone willing to help these children? Or are they resigned to a fate of more shelling only to end up dead or severely injured and back in dirty, understaffed and undersupplied make-shift clinics?

Thanks @LccSy

**HORRIFYING & EXTREMELY GRAPHIC** THIS IS THE FINAL IMAGE HIS PARENTS WILL HAVE OF HIM. Daraa (Busr Al Sham): Aug 26 2012 - Words cannot describe this scene. It’s not out of a horror moive. It’s not your imagination. The first boy in the opening scenes is a real human. He was horrifically killed when a Russian made and supplied helicopter fired rockets into his home, tearing the top part of his skull off and covering him in dust, thus making this little child appear out of some horror movie.

But this is not a horror movie. This child was a son to loving parents. He went to school. He had dreams. He used to play in the streets like all kids. Yet this is how he will be remembered by his family. This is how the world (that cares to look) will see him.

If we, working collectively, can not stop the carnage that is going on in Syria, or if we refuse to, we have signed our own Death Warrant as a species on this planet.

The Christian Science Monitor is reporting today:

'Atrocity on a new scale'? Syrians piece together story of Daraya massacre
The Syrian opposition is disseminating video footage from the town of Daraya this weekend that tells of a government massacre that may have left more than 600  people dead.
By Arthur Bright, Staff writer / August 27, 2012

New video footage has provided graphic evidence of a massacre reportedly committed by forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in the Damascus suburb of Daraya.  If reports from the London-based Syrian Observatory of Human Rights of more than 300 dead are confirmed, "it would be an atrocity of a new scale" in the Syrian conflict, a British diplomat warned.

Over the weekend, activists posted multiple bloody videos of the victims of what they say was a coordinated massacre of citizens of Daraya – mostly young men of fighting age, although women and children were killed as well – that began on Friday.

“The Assad forces killed them in cold blood,” Abu Ahmad, a resident of Daraya, told The New York Times.  “I saw dozens of dead people, killed by the knives at the end of Kalashnikovs, or by gunfire. The regime finished off whole families, a father, mother and their children. They just killed them without any pretext.”

The Local Coordination Committees activist group said that some 150 bodies were found Saturday night in the basement of a mosque in what seems to be the largest single killing site, though additional sites continue to be found – another 15 bodies were found in the basement of a home on Sunday.  The LCC puts the death toll for the week in Daraya at more than 630.

“Daraya, a city of dignity, has paid a heavy price for demanding freedom,” the group said in a statement, adding: “The death toll has doubled in the past few days due to field executions and revenge killings.” More...

The Economist has this report:
The devastation of Daraya
Aug 27th 2012, 13:20

IT IS difficult to distinguish one gruesome day from the next in Syria until the devastation of a town is so great that it earns itself a place on the conflict’s increasingly bloody timeline: the assault in February on Homs’s Baba Amr district, the Houla massacre in May, and now Daraya.

The small town on the southwestern edge of the capital Damascus was shelled for several days last week before President Bashar Assad’s forces stormed in on August 25th, carrying out house-to-house raids and executing men on the spot. At least 200 bodies were found on Saturday, often in basements of houses; more than 350 were killed over the past week. Video footage and photographs from local activists show bloodied corpses laid out in the yard of a mosque, before being lowered into mass graves.

The massacre is part of an intensified offensive by the regime to reassert control in Damascus and beyond. Having failed to stamp out the rebels despite resorting to ever more shelling and aerial bombing, Mr Assad appears to be targeting his efforts more specifically on areas held by or harbouring rebels in an attempt to turn the local populations against the fighters. That may work in some areas of Aleppo, the country’s commercial capital, where although many locals hate the regime there is less support for the opposition fighters. But in smaller towns like Daraya, residents reached by Skype on Sunday put the blame squarely on the regime.

Rebel fighters here apparently withdrew from the town to avoid the regime’s wrath, although some may have simply melted back into the civilian population. But any such efforts were futile: the regime sees all young men as a threat, as the fact that the majority of the dead were young men shows. The UN accuses both sides of war crimes, but says that those committed by the government far outweigh those of the rebels. Increasingly, ordinary Syrians are bearing the brunt of the violence. Saturday was the bloodiest day yet, adding to a death toll of 4,000 so far in August.

In Daraya, Syrians are mourning not just the devastation in one town but the increasingly dark fate of the uprising. For months the place was a beacon of non-violent resistance. As other parts picked up arms, protesters in Daraya offered roses and water to the soldiers stationed in their hometown. To no avail. Ghiyath Matar, a young activist committed to non-violent protest, was arrested and tortured to death; others were shot on the spot.  Daraya embodies the sad trajectory of Syria’s uprising, in which the regime’s violence has transformed hopeful protests into a destructive civil war. It will be just one of many places to pay dearly.

From the National we have this very important report:
Daraya: the defiance that led to the Syrian massacre of hundreds
Phil Sands
Aug 27, 2012

DAMASCUS // For a rather non-descript town of drab cement block buildings on the southern outskirts of Damascus, Daraya in two short months acquired a significance far exceeding its size or the apparent ordinariness of its neighbourhoods.

Until the start of last week's all-out assault by regime loyalists, which culminated with the alleged massacre of at least 300 people, the community took up the task of governing themselves - a highly emblematic piece of defiance against a regime that has long warned chaos and Islamic extremism would engulf areas outside of its strict control.

Rather than sliding into anarchy after security forces withdrew entirely from the town this summer, Daraya had instead been run with a certain quiet efficiency by opposition activists and volunteers drawn from the town's 200,000 or so population.

There was no state police in the area, but traffic flowed freely and residents reported little crime. Modest rebuilding projects to repair damage from previous army operations had been carried out, paid for by local donations.

Stores and wood workshops were open, an independent community newspaper was being published and volunteer street cleaners swept and washed down roads. People even queued politely at the local petrol station.

With no security forces on hand to make arrests, activists would stand at major intersections and hand out leaflets designed to educate residents on the key principles of the revolution, as drawn up by committees of local men and women.

The leaflets said there must be equality between all religious and ethnic groups in the new Syria and stressed the importance of ensuring justice and rejecting revenge in dealing with regime officials. They also spelt out that with new freedoms would come enormous responsibilities and duties for every citizen, including caring for the environment and conserving scarce water resources.

Daraya was one of a growing number of places living on the fraying edge of central authority in Syria, but its slide out of the government's grasp was made all the more remarkable by its proximity to the very centre of power.  More...

Not surprisingly, the Assad regime has made its own claims that these people were killed by anti-government forces and have produced video propaganda promoting these lies. Here is one such report from the pro-Assad Dunya TV's Michellen Azer that is well critiqued in the subtitles:

2:21 PM PT: So many people ask me what I think should be done that i decided to elevate this from a comment to the main body.

The US should not act as a filter for weapons reaching the opposition.

From the NY Times we have this story about our country's input into this crisis under Obama's leadership:

A small number of C.I.A. officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey, helping allies decide which Syrian opposition fighters across the border will receive arms to fight the Syrian government, according to American officials and Arab intelligence officers.
From the Australian, we have more details about what the American role really amounts to:
the CIA has blocked shipments of heavy anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons, which rebel units of the Free Syrian Army have long said are vital to their efforts to overthrow the regime of President Bashar al-Assad. At the same time they have approved supplies of AK-47 Kalashnikov rifles, and just over a month ago gave the green light to a shipment of 10,000 Russian-made rocket-propelled grenades.
This is a disgusting policy. What does that make the United States if not accessories to these murders?

So I guess the first thing I want done is for Mr Obama stop this shameless policy of promoting endless war in Syria while at the same time denying the Free Syrian Army the weapons they need to win.

Is he so afraid of what Israel will say if he allows the FSA to get manpads that he is willing to see thousands get slaughtered from the air between now and the election?

Clearly nobody is even considering a no-fly zone, so I find this policy of denying the people being slaughtered the tools with which to defend themselves absolutely criminal.

I hope there is a charge of accessory-to-a-warcrime, and it won't just be the Russians who will be looking at it.

8:36 PM PT: One Kossack, in justifying Obama's policy of imposing the US as a "filter" to make sure no one supplies the Free Syrian Army with effective weapons against armor and aircraft said:

We don't want weapons to wind up in enemy hands and it is probable that at least some of the FSA groups are allied to Al Qaeda. Just because someone is Assad's enemy does not mean it is in our national interest for them to have heavy weapons.
Another Kossack wrote a dairy that expressed much the same sentiment:
Why is the Obama administration trying to limit who gets arms and block heavy arms from being delivered to the rebels in Syria?

Because most of the arms the rebels have are not secure. There is no organized command structure, alliances between groups are very fluid, and cash is king - almost all the arms in rebel hands are up for sale.

The idea being defended is that these items have a dual use. Yes they could be used to save the people being slaughtered from the air, but they could also be used to challenge our air superiority and endanger us in other ways.

So since we don't directly suffer from the slaughter in Syria, but we may suffer if these weapons should fall into the wrong hands, we should stop them from getting the weapons if we can.

This is the same "dual-use" mentality imperialist powers always exercises where they have that control.

With the Iraq sanctions it meant: We know you need chlorine to purify the water but you could make chemical weapons with it so sorry the children will have to die. Or we know you need anti-biotics to fight diseases but they could also be used in a bio attack, so sorry.

Israel uses the same self-serving "logic" to deny Gaza even the most basic building materials.

The US policy, Obama's policy, the one these Kossacks seem to be defending is precisely the policy that will cost the most Syrian lives. It is a policy of allowing them just enough weapons to continue the fight [ AK-47s and RPG] while denying them the weapons [heavy anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons] they need to win the fight.

A long civil war in Syria suites US imperialism just fine. First, they really don't want to see Assad go. Obama thought he was on the verge on doing a peace deal with Assad, and he was helping with intel. But they would like to see Assad weakened. And if Assad does have to go, they want to have a say in picking the next king, and they don't have that clout with the FSA yet, so continuing the war gives them time and space to maneuverer.

Of course, that also means that the slaughter of Syrians continues, but US imperialism never worried about that. Didn't in Vietnam or Iraq or now with the drone strikes everywhere. In Syria, the US isn't even doing the killing directly, we're just blocking help from getting to them.

Still, its a lousy, blood-soaked, Machiavellian, imperialism policy and I'm just sorry to see so many Kossacks lining up behind it.  

Here are my related diaries on Syria:
Special message from Syrian children to Obama
Assad's Redline and Obama's Greenlight!
General Meade at Gettysburg
Tell US gov't to stop endangering Syrian activists
UPDATED: #Obama "green lights" #Assad's slaughter in #Syria
Syria: Turning Battlegrounds into Playgrounds
BREAKING: Bashar al-Assad is alive as deaths in Syria reach 25,000
The Left and the Arab Spring
Iran increasing its intervention in Syria
Syria: Images from the Battle of Aleppo
Fears grow of WMD attack in Syria
UPDATED: FSA says it killed Russian General in Syria
BREAKING: Syria releases new images of Bashar al- Assad | Are they fakes?
NOT BREAKING NEWS: Just another massacre in Syria
UPDATED: Syrian prime minister defects
Syria: FSA says Iranian pilgrims really Republican Guard
Syria: Aleppo under Siege!
BREAKING: UN votes to condemn Assad Regime as Reuters posts false story on Syria
BREAKING: Kofi Annan resigns as envoy to Syria
Syria: Bashar al-Assad not heard from on Armed Forces Day!
BREAKING: Senior Syrian diplomat to Armenia defects
BREAKING: Big Explosion hits #Damascus #Syria
UPDATED: Syria's Charge D'Affaires Quits London Post
BREAKING: Ground assault on Aleppo begins!
BREAKING: Protests across Syria in spite of Assad regime violence
ALEPPO: Step outside the Matrix and witness the Horror
UPDATED: US fears massacre in #Aleppo, #Syria
BREAKING: Reports of clashes between Jordan Army & Assad's Syrian army
BRAKING: Obama stops Putin from re-arming Assad in Syria
Syria: Foreign meddling increases as crisis builds
BREAKING: Aleppo, Syria bombed with fighter jets
BREAKING: Syria issues a correction, it has no WMD to use
BREAKING: Arab League asks Assad to step down!
Bashar al-Assad: New images released as slaughter continues in Syria
no blood for oil
BREAKING: Activists report toxic gas attack in Deir ez-Zor, Syria
Glenn Greenwald sees Islamist Terrorism as main issue in Syria
Will Syria's Assad make a chemical attack in Damascus on Saturday?
BREAKING: I know where Syria's President Bashar al-Assad is!
BREAKING: Massive Fire near #Assad's Presidential Palace in #Damascus, #Syria
BREAKING: Is Syria's Bashar al-Assad dead or dying?
BREAKING: Damascus explosion kills Defense Minister, other key figures
The battle for Damascus is coming
BREAKING: General Strike in Damascus
BREAKING: Intense fighting reported in Damascus now!
BREAKING: Syrian defector spills beans as important new defection reported.
Does Syria's Assad have something on Kofi Annan?
Tremseh Massacre in Syria: What we know
BREAKING: ~227 reported massacred by Assad's forces in Tremseh, Syria today!
Syria: Is Assad regime on the verge of collapse?
BREAKING: Russian Warships reported in Syria
BREAKING: #Russia changing on #Assad but not as fast as conditions in #Syria
UN Observers say violence in Syria is ‘Unprecedented’
BREAKING: Defection of major Assad insider reported in Syria
BREAKING: WikiLeaks releases 2.4 million #Syria emails
When did "Never Again" become "Whenever?" | #Douma
BREAKING: Incredible mass rally in Aleppo, Syria today!
BREAKING: HRW releases torture report on Syria
BREAKING: Syrian General defects with 293 to Turkey
BREAKING: Items not in the MSM on Syria
My response to Phyllis Bennis: Where is the non-violent opposition in Syria?
BREAKING: Syrian Air Force attacks Douma, 10m from Damascus, thousands flee
BREAKING: As Syria Burns, UN Blows More Smoke
BREAKING: Kofi Annan to propose Syrian unity gov't sans Assad!
BREAKING: Douma, Syria under massive attack, another massacre feared
BREAKING: Another mass defection from Syrian army
BREAKING: #NATO says No War in #Syria shoot down of #Turkey jet
NATO meetup tomorrow as more defect from Syria
BREAKING: Turkey calls for NATO consult on downing of jet by Syria
BREAKING: Senior Syrian Officers Defect
UPDATED: Russia reported to be preparing to evacuate from Syria
BREAKING: Syria fighter pilot defects
BREAKING: Britain stops Russian ship carrying attack helicopters for Syria
BREAKING: Russian troops headed to Syria
Qaddafi forces Strike Back in Libya
BREAKING: UN suspends mission in Syria
Libya & Syria - two videos - no comment
BREAKING: Russia denies supplying Syria with NEW attack helicopters
Syrian people rise up against the massacre
Another "Houla style" massacre in Syria
Fake Houla Massacre Photo: Was the BBC set up?
Idlib, Syria protest today on anniversary of Kent State killings
BREAKING: Massive protests in Syria following Friday pray
Syria is bleeding
Syria: Ceasefire faltering as mass protests breakout

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (14+ / 0-)

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 12:34:40 PM PDT

  •  Gut-wrenching (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ontheleftcoast, Quicklund, Lujane, DRo

    "We don't need someone who can think. We need someone with enough digits to hold a pen." ~ Grover Norquist

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 12:39:17 PM PDT

  •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mircead
    “Daraya, a city of dignity, has paid a heavy price for demanding freedom,”
    The price is heavier when those that can help... won't.

    Be still when you have nothing to say; when geniune passion moves you, say what you've got to say... and say it hot. - D. H. Lawrence

    by LucyMO on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 12:42:13 PM PDT

    •  What is your plan of action (11+ / 0-)

      Clay won't tell us what he wants done. He just criticizes Mr Obama. So maybe you can fill the vacuum. What should be done that has not been done?

      •  this is one problem with so many things in (4+ / 0-)

        this world; it is so easy to say what is wrong but saying what should be done is an entirely different matter.
        Before we go on any new foreign adventures, it seems the neat and tidy things for us as a nation to do would be to finish the ones we have already begun first

        •  We should do what we did in Libya. (0+ / 0-)
          •  As in wait for a clear international mandate? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund, entlord

            If NATO is going to intervene against the wishes of Russia and China (who probably won't abstain this time), there really needs to be consensus on the matter. We also need clear Arab League support for intervention, without conditions that will make it hard for NATO forces to operate.

            Male, 22, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

            by fearlessfred14 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 04:55:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes. We need to get out of the Middle (0+ / 0-)

              East.

              Afghani trainees are killing our soldiers, there's no reason to believe the Syrians want us there.

              Just the weapons. Remember, we trained and outfitted Noriega and Saddam, and look how well THAT turned out.

              "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

              by glorificus on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 08:58:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Libya was much more simple than Syria (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Claudius Bombarnac

            And Libya was not simple.

            Libya has a pop of 6.5m. Syria has a pop of 20m. Syria has a much larger military.

            In Libya, Gaddafi had no real allies. In Syria, Assad has Russia, China, Iran and to some extent Iraq.

            Libya is relatively homogeneous. Syria has Sunni, Shiite, Kurd complication.

            Syria is surrounded by Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, and NATO member Turkey. (Lebanon and Jordan are already getting pulled into the conflict.) Libya is surrounded by sand.

            Syria is just more complicated a situation than Libya was, and Libya wasn't exactly easy.

      •  The US should not act as a filter for weapons (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mircead

        reaching the opposition. How's that for openers?

        From the NY Times we have this story about our country's input into this crisis under Obama's leadership:

        A small number of C.I.A. officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey, helping allies decide which Syrian opposition fighters across the border will receive arms to fight the Syrian government, according to American officials and Arab intelligence officers.
        From the Australian, we have more details about what the American role really amounts to:
        the CIA has blocked shipments of heavy anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons, which rebel units of the Free Syrian Army have long said are vital to their efforts to overthrow the regime of President Bashar al-Assad. At the same time they have approved supplies of AK-47 Kalashnikov rifles, and just over a month ago gave the green light to a shipment of 10,000 Russian-made rocket-propelled grenades.
        This is a disgusting policy. What does that make the United States if not accessories to these murders?

        So I guess the first thing I want done is for Mr Obama stop this shameless policy of promoting endless war in Syria while at the same time denying the Free Syrian Army the weapons they need to win.

        Is he so afraid of what Israel will say if he allows the FSA to get manpads that he is willing to see thousands get slaughtered from the air between now and the election?

        Clearly nobody is even considering a no-fly zone, so I find this policy of denying the people being slaughtered the tools with which to defend themselves absolutely criminal.

        I hope there is a charge of accessory-to-a-warcrime, and it won't just be the Russians who will be looking at it.

        Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

        by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 02:20:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So at long last we have two reccomendations (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tytalus, InAntalya, angry marmot, Russgirl

          Lavishly supply weapons to anyone who asks for them, and establish a no-fly zone.

          Topic: Massive weapons distribution:

          Would you give just any weapons system to anyone who asked for them?

          Next topic: There is no UN mandate to establish a no-fly zone

          Do you support the no-fly zone knowing now that doing so would be an act of war?

          Next topic: American war dead.

          Syria is no Libya. Syria has a very powerful air-defense system. A better comparison is to Iraq before her military was wrecked in the Gulf War.

          It took from August 7th 1990 to Jan 17th 1991 to build up enough force to begin the air campaign. Once begun the air attacks lasted until Feb 23rd when the ground invasion began. Over 100,000 sorties were flown, The Coalition lost 52 fixed-wing aircraft and 23 helicopters. Roughly 2,300 Iraqi citizens were killed.

          So do you still favor a "no-fly zone" knowing that in order to do so the USA would have to engage in a full-scale war against yet another Mideast nation?

          Next topic: Israel

          Israel and Syria are legally at war right now. If the USA attacks Israel's enemy directly that can be seen as direct American intervention on Israel's side in war against an Arab nation. That risk is exponentially higher if there is no UN resolution. The potential downsides to this should be obvious.

          Do you ever, in the slightest measure, consider the risks of spreading the war throughout the Middle East?

          •  This isn't 1991. Give the FSA laser target- (0+ / 0-)

            designators, we take out targets with drones.

            As for the U.N., we all know the aspiring Great Powers Russia and China don't give one damn about Assad's innocent victims. The question is, are we any different?

            •  Yet another prediction of the bloodless war. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Claudius Bombarnac

              Haven't heard that one before.

              Here are some things you should understand. Drones are not super weapons. They are very very very easy to shoot down for the Syrian military. They are not warplanes. they are not fast. And the drone operator sees only what the camera sees. Since that is pointing down at the ground, it would not see an airplane flying next to it 20 feet away. You could shoot some of these things down with a rifle and a Piper Cub.

              Syria has jet fighters, surface to air missiles, radar sets, and thousands of anti-aircraft guns.

              So that is exactly why I take the time to post in these Syria diaries. A no-fly zone is not just a matter of sending in some drones. In order to create a no-fly zone in Syria, that means full-scale war on Syria in order to knock out all those aircraft, missiles, and guns.

              And that is not going to be bloodless, for the Syrians or for the people flying the attacking military aircraft.

              •  So, the Syrian radar paints the drone, (0+ / 0-)

                the drone relays the target info and a plane loitering out of range fires the missile that takes it out.

                In downing the drone, the radar site gives its precise position.

                •  That happens only in the context of full war (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mookins

                  Drones are not super weapons. They are operated in areas where the "enemy" has no air force and no air defense system. In order to operate drones over Syria, first Syria's air defense system and air force would have to be attacked.  Until the defenses are neutralized there is no "loitering".

                  That would represent a full-scale attack much like the air war phase over Iraq in 1990. Not the 2003 the air war, the 1990 air war.

                  This notion of bloodless push-button war is a fable. People will die. Syrians and Americans. If we are going to debate the merits of American intervention in Syria, let's get it straight at the outset it will not be cheap or easy and many Americans will die.

          •  You are mis-stating what I said (0+ / 0-)

            but I think you know that.

            My question to you.

            What are is Syrian opposition demanding?

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 05:09:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You want: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angry marmot

              1) More and more powerful weapons given to ... dunno. But you don't want the country supplying the arms to screen who gets the arms. You are admittedly vague on what you want. But I figured I would give you credit for two suggestions not just one.

              2) You want a no-fly zone. That is clear and not open to misinterpretation.

              Your suggestions.

              I imagine different Syrian opposition groups want different things. Such as the nuanced account given to us by InAntoyla indicated. But I imagine most of them wish the Assad dynasty to end.

              Now the questions put before you remain ignored. . .

          •  Specific corrects to your misrepresentations. (0+ / 0-)
            Lavishly supply weapons to anyone who asks for them,
            My demand is that the US not act as a gatekeeper between those who want to supply weapons and the FSA.
            and establish a no-fly zone.1
            I said it was clear that a no-fly zone is not going to be created. This is my assessment of the political reality and that is quite independent of what I want.

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 07:39:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you want the FSA to get any weapons they want (0+ / 0-)

              That is your one and only suggestions. Since the USA is not following your one and only suggestion, you lash about insulting the country, the government, and readers at this web site.

              This is presumably your concept of persuasive writing. Maybe you should go back to the drawing board.

        •  It seems that you are not aware that (3+ / 0-)

          the US and Turkish Governments are having a series of high-level meetings in Istanbul this week and that one of the main subjects being discussed is making sure that no weapons get into the hands of Islamic radicals or Kurdish groups in Syria.

          Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

          by InAntalya on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 03:22:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Jesus, Clay... (3+ / 0-)

          You've not only jumped the shark but, on landing, plunged right down the rabbit-hole. Curiouser and curiouser...

          Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

          by angry marmot on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 03:33:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We don't want weapons to wind up in enemy hands (0+ / 0-)

          and it is probable that at least some of the FSA groups are allied to Al Qaeda. Just because someone is Assad's enemy does not mean it is in our national interest for them to have heavy weapons.

          Male, 22, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

          by fearlessfred14 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 05:01:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Its not particularly in our "national interest" (0+ / 0-)

            to stop the slaughter.

            Obama thinks like you. It's not in our interest to see this slaughter of people who aren't even American stopped and it is in our "national interest" to keep weapons out of the hands the "wrong people."

            Therefore fuck the people being bombed, we'll keep them from getting any weapons just in case they may be the "wrong people".

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 05:17:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have a plan of action... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund, mircead

        I don't have advanced degrees and a room full of the smartest people in the world to aid in coming up with a solution.  Thank heavens for the world that isn't my job.  

        But for me, to see the use of force/arms/vocal solidarity applied so disproportionately against governments who slaughter their own people depending on our interests disgusts me.  I know how the world works, I am not niave to think that we can solve every problem.  I understand there are nuances so far beyond that which I can even see with a focused lens.

        I did not say that anyone should or even can intervene, I simply said the price is heavier when those that can help.. won't.  Is that an inaccurate statement?

        Be still when you have nothing to say; when geniune passion moves you, say what you've got to say... and say it hot. - D. H. Lawrence

        by LucyMO on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 02:59:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Everyone here shares that sentiment (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tytalus, Russgirl, LucyMO

          I can tell from your reply that you are a reasonable person. Yes it is a hard question and it is not possible to solve every problem. And yes I wish it were easy to stop the violence in Syria.

          I think it is fair to say everyone here feels that way. But not if you read our diarist here. For weeks DailyKos is treated to 4-5 diaries from this author who just spews twisted charges against our country, our President, and the DKos readership.

          He also never bothers to acknowledge that some things in life are difficult. And he does not have anything constructive to say. He makes a career out of calling Barack Obama a coldblooded villain.

          So there is a bit of frustration at play here. I am sorry some of it spilled over towards you.

          •  Choose PEACE Clay not war drums for profit. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund

            USA is broke.
            We need to change our policies to PEACE.

            Read Juan Cole sometime - he knows more about the middle east than you or I do.

            “Today we live in a society in which spurious realities are manufactured by the media, by governments, by big corporations, by religious groups, political groups...

            unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms.

            I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power…

            and it is an astonishing power: that of creating whole universes, universes of the mind.

            I ought to know. I do the same thing”

            ~Phillip K Dick

            •  That sounds like you chose to believe this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mircead

              massacre didn't really happen. That is a "spurious realities are manufactured by the media, " or maybe "pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people."

              Well, you go on with your happy thoughts. after all, you have that privilege!

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 05:25:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It is here we find the distortions (0+ / 0-)

                It sounds like Juan Cole is considered a better source than you. YOUR reply on the other hand is pathetic. I categorize your statement not as a strawman but as a lie.

              •  Thanks for mixing it up. I did not say that, eh? (0+ / 0-)

                TIME will TELL... just who hurt whom - regardless of what YOU say or write, or me either.

                Juan Cole is a decent source.  

                If you don't like it, go to Syria and help people out -
                -- instead of pushing for more war we are too broke to afford.
                Not to mention - what the heck are we doing messing with other countries ....when our own is going down the drain thanks to the criminal neo-cons who only wants more at the expense of all?

                "Whether the mask is labelled Fascism, Democracy, or Dictatorship of the Proletariat, our great adversary remains the Apparatus—the bureaucracy, the police, the military.


                - Not the one facing us across the frontier or the battlelines,
                - which is not so much our enemy as our brother's enemy,
                - but the one that calls itself our protector and makes us its slaves.

                No matter what the circumstances, the worst betrayal will always be to subordinate ourselves to this Apparatus, and to trample underfoot, in its service, all human values in ourselves and in others."
                — Simone Weil, Politics, Spring 1945

      •  'We', not Obama, are mentioned in this diary. (0+ / 0-)
  •  Why Doesn't Saudia Arabia Go Into Syria? (5+ / 0-)

    Maybe Jordan or Turkey should do something.  Or maybe even the UK could go into Syria.  Why does it always have to be the US?  Better yet why don't the UN send in troops.  That would be even a better solution.  The US should tell Russian and China that if they don't get rid of Assad that the UN will go in and do it for them.  

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 12:49:05 PM PDT

    •  this would make the UN exactly the type (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, Quicklund, FG

      of organization the wingers complain that it is.  First of all, the US doesn't tell China or Russia much of anything any more, if the US ever did.
      Second, does the UN get involved in every conflict on the globe? Also the UN, in and of itself, has no army (and Stalin made the classic comment about armies in referring to the Pope) and usually relies upon poorer nations to send their troops into troublespots in exchange for money so the troops sent in are frequently not elite forces.
      Finally, both China and Russia have veto power over any UN SC action, so exactly how does the US hijack the UN into becoming its proxy army?  

      •  The UK is a sovereign country, and it can... (0+ / 0-)

        ...send troops to Syria as it wishes.

        I won't say the same for Germany or France, as, as well all know, Merkel and Hollande must defer to the unelected wise men of Brussels before they act.  

        That said, Brussels can dictate that the provinces of Germany and France send troops to Syria.

        So why won't it?

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

        by PatriciaVa on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 01:29:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because Atlantic and European powers (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Egalitare, Fire bad tree pretty

          know just how complex any form of direct military action / intervention would be, and how widespread the regional geopolitical repercussions.

          Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

          by angry marmot on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 01:49:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)
          That said, Brussels can dictate that the provinces of Germany and France send troops to Syria.
          Claims of Germany and France not being sovereign nations.

          Is this intended as snark?

          •  Quasi-Snark (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund

            Glance at headlines from Germany.  Merkel calling for more integration.  More integration and debt mutualization will inevitably lead to a US of Europe, comprised of 17 states, perhaps based in Berlin, perhaps in Brussels.

            Ironically, the German voter is as nationalistic as he has ever been.  But Merkel and almost all the other EZ leaders have decided to disregard the opinion of their constituents.  They are determined to force through a US of Europe, regardless of public opinion.

            Who do I cheer for?

            I am a firm believer in the nation-state, I believe that we are a tribal people by nature, and I do hope that the voter in the EZ is able to reverse the monstrosity known as the EZ.

            Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

            by PatriciaVa on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 03:21:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  This really isn't a peacekeeper situation anyways (4+ / 0-)

        Peacekeepers are good at enforcing truces between two distinct parties. They are not good at overthrowing governments or counterinsurgency operations, both of which could be involved in this situation. Plus, as you said, most peacekeepers come from poor nations that will probably be hesitant to provide troops to topple the recognized government of a member state. Remember that as scummy as the Assad regime is, until there is a Security Council resolution to the contrary it is considered the legitimate government of Syria under international law.

        Male, 22, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

        by fearlessfred14 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 01:56:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, everyone, let's invade Syria. It will be an (3+ / 0-)

      invasion party! UN has no troops in case you didn't know that.

    •  The Russians and Chinese like the arrangement... (0+ / 0-)

      ...just fine as is.

      Why would they want to "get rid of Assad?" If he's deposed in any way, they'll cut their losses in Syria, trumpet their "proven, consistent respect for National Sovereignty" and find new, willing partners who appreciate that stance.

      The Russians don't have to answer to shareholders and the Chinese will declare whatever assets they lost as never, ever having existed.

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 02:26:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably because the US won't let them. (0+ / 0-)

      If Obama won't let Saudi Arabia give the Syrian opposition surface to air missiles, and he won't [see above], what makes you think he won't try to stop them from actually sending in any kind of peace-keeping force?

      None of the force you named will do it over a US objection.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 02:29:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   Britain and US plan a Syrian revolution (0+ / 0-)

    from an innocuous office block in Istanbul

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...
     By Damien McElroy, Istanbul
    7:30PM BST 26 Aug 2012

    An underground network of Syrian opposition activists is receiving training and supplies of vital equipment from a combined American and British effort to forge an effective alternative to the Damascus regime.

    Dozens of dissidents have been ferried out of Syria to be vetted for foreign backing. Recipients of the aid are given satellite communications and computers so that they can act as a local "hub" linking local activists and the outside world.
    ...
    The schemes are overseen by the US State Department's Office of Syrian Opposition Support (OSOS) and Foreign Office officials. America has set aside $25 million for political opponents of President Bashar al-Assad while Britain is granting £5 million to the cause of overthrowing the regime.
    ...
    Officials are adamant there will be no crossover between the civilian "non-lethal" assistance and the military campaign waged by the rebel fighters.
    ...
     But in a barely furnished office in a tower block near Istanbul airport an SNC official decried the false promises of its allies. "We've heard a lot of promises from the very beginning of the SNC but none of those have been fulfilled," the SNC official said. "This has reflected absolutely negatively on our work. The opposition of Syria wants the world to provide humanitarian aid for the people in need and the Free Syria Army wants intervention to stop planes bombing their positions.

    "Instead they go around behind our back undermining our role."

    A Whitehall official said the effort was not about building an alternative to the SNC but a means to enhance the role of those dissidents still within Syria.

    Victoria Nuland, the State Department spokesman, confirmed the OSOS programme last week and said its full effect would only be seen when President Assad leaves office.
    ...

    •  So that's why they won't give the FSA the weapons (0+ / 0-)

      they need to win the fight.

      They need time to play these little games.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Mon Aug 27, 2012 at 10:10:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's all about destabilizing Syria so that it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        can't help Iran in the coming months. One of the worst things for the US (and Israel) would be for the militant Islamic Muslim Brotherhood to gain control in Syria. This branch is not as benign as the one in Egypt. BTW, the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood is dominant in the SNC. See my post below.

        Empires have no permanent friends or enemies. They have only permanent interests.

        There is a saying: "The road to Tehran goes through Damascus."

  •  Fractured Syrian Opposition Frustrates Western (0+ / 0-)

    Supporters

    http://www.al-monitor.com/...
    Mohammad Ballout posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2012
    ...
    Sources close to the French president say that talk of a no-fly zone does not mean that there is a real intention to impose it. The sources said that President Hollande will not act before the US presidential elections, and that he will not take any action with regard to Syria that may bother President Barack Obama during his campaign. In addition, there is no real French desire to go beyond logistically supporting the Syrian opposition. Is the SNC no longer supported by the West? Sieda asserts that “the SNC is still the largest umbrella organization for the Syrian opposition.”
    ...
     American and British diplomats have been visiting the Turkish-Syrian border ever since US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s visit there two weeks ago. They are trying to identify the Syrian military groups they can talk to and have participate in the political process, away from the SNC.

    But the Westerners may end up facing the same difficulties with the armed opposition. A Syrian opposition member in Paris said that Maj. Gen. Mustafa al-Sheikh — the head of the Joint Command of the Supreme Military Council and the FSA — does not think that unifying the armed opposition groups can be easily achieved. Sheikh has toured Idlib and Aleppo, where he met with the armed groups’ leaders, before returning to his headquarters in Antakya.

    The source said that Sheikh was pessimistic about unifying the FSA and converting it into a nucleus for a Syrian National Army. Sheikh noted that there is no coordination between the military units, each of which is taking actions without orders from the joint command. This is negatively affecting combat operations and causing the armed opposition substantial losses.
    ...

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